Is the POF P308 G4 worth the extra thousand over Ruger SR-762?

[Cobracutter]

It's not tired bullshit. And it's entirely the wrong perspective to think it is.

Your argument is that only one person's testimony doesn't make for a valid argument. So how many people does it take? Exactly how many bad guns are there versus good guns? What are the exact numbers of bad rifles from the companies making 10k's of them? If you don't know that exact number then you are arguing from an uninformed position. You are simply stating unsupported opinion. Which quite honestly, carries less weight than the people offering opinions who actually own these rifles.

There is a whole thread on the DPMS Gen II on this forum. Most people seem pretty pleased so far. Does anyone have any idea how many bad gun stories it takes to offset the good gun stories? I can't speak for other manufacturers weapons, as I have only fired them on ocassion, I don't actually own any other AR10's. But with the exception of a very tired and malfunctioning Bushmaster, they all were fairly decent weapons. So from that perspective, do I declare all Bushmasters to be crap? Hardly seems fair because I don't know exactly how many run fine versus not.

At this year's MGM Ironman, my buddies $3500 JP rifle suffered a catastrophic failure on the long range bonus section. My DPMS ran flawlessly for three people to get all their hits without effort. So go figure.

Again, I do respect your opinion. But I still humbly disagree with it.

And if anyone with half a brain had the choice between a DPMS or a JP, which would they choose?

You are cherry picking data

There is also historical precedent in DPMS putting out shitty, out of spec, non QC parts and guns for the last 20 years or so............. That has 100 times the weight of you and ur bubba friends non statistically significant example.

 

[Skeld1]

And if anyone with half a brain had the choice between a DPMS or a JP, which would they choose?

You are cherry picking data

There is also historical precedent in DPMS putting out shitty, out of spec, non QC parts and guns for the last 20 years or so............. That has 100 times the weight of you and ur bubba friends non statistically significant example.

What bearing does Freedom Group have on this history?

 

[355sigfan]

Jasonfaz we don't run reduced power rifle ammo in three gun because we still have to shoot to 500 yards at times and hotter ammo runs the comp better.


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[samnev]

I have a doctorate now? Sweeeeet where be muh grantz

No it does not mean you have a PHD. But I do grant you have a lot of BS. I'll give you a hint on what the BS, MS, PHD means. The PHD means Piled Higher and Deeper. Now with you intellect I am you can figure out what the MS means.

 

[Cobracutter]

No it does not mean you have a PHD. But I do grant you have a lot of BS. I'll give you a hint on what the BS, MS, PHD means. The PHD means Piled Higher and Deeper. Now with you intellect I am you can figure out what the MS means.

Nope, I only have one BS.. Don't give me credit I didn't earn.

I know its confusing for you GED types. But the world needs ditch diggers.

 

[Cobracutter]

What bearing does Freedom Group have on this history?

What any private equity holding group does when it buys a known brand. Push it out faster, cheaper and with less quality to pad the bottom line. Other than Barnes, there is not one Freedom Group company that has not gone to absolute shit since their acquisition. Half of them were already shit companies/products in their defense........

 

[Doc68]

Can't we just all get along.

 

[Skeld1]

I'm just waiting for Cobracutter to fix his broken sig link finally.

 

[parkervbar88]

i had very bad experiences with POS myself. i personally would never buy from them again knowing that if i were to have a problem they would simply not do anything about it. and as you know POS has had many problems.

 

[parkervbar88]

why not buy a colt?

 

[shipwreck2]

Thanks for all of the fun input

I am looking at piston designs for ammo reasons and adding a suppressor. That being said I think I have a good idea of what POF has to offer-thanks for all the input. A few have mentioned HK-look great but too much money.

What is your take on PWS MK 216 rifle?

 

[jasonfaz]

I'd put PWS way up there in the piston-driven realm. They've genuinely got a great design.

On a side note, they're from Idaho. So you know you're buying from a bunch of good ole country boys that know only one thing. Guns. Great folks out there...

 

[Cobracutter]

Piston AR's. SMH....................................and off we gooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[BCP]

Thanks for all of the fun input

I am looking at piston designs for ammo reasons and adding a suppressor. That being said I think I have a good idea of what POF has to offer-thanks for all the input. A few have mentioned HK-look great but too much money.

What is your take on PWS MK 216 rifle?

There was a dude on here who ran the shit out of a PWS 214 but I can't remember his name. He seemed very happy with it. Their prices have gone up considerably though from then (sub 2300) to now (3000?).

Honestly I'd rather have an LMT MWS, GAP10, Larue PredOBR, JP rifle, they all seem to shoot well. A suppressed SCAR17 would be neat too I think you can get them for 2500$ now.

 

[tipper]

This is the problem, Bullet Jacket: Bi-metal.
If you want to go Bang, Bang with cheap ammo buy a cheap gun.

 

[shipwreck2]

There was a dude on here who ran the shit out of a PWS 214 but I can't remember his name. He seemed very happy with it. Their prices have gone up considerably though from then (sub 2300) to now (3000?).

Honestly I'd rather have an LMT MWS, GAP10, Larue PredOBR, JP rifle, they all seem to shoot well. A suppressed SCAR17 would be neat too I think you can get them for 2500$ now.

I just found out about the scar yesterday at it looks like a winner for sure.

 

[shipwreck2]

I already do. I have a converted saiga 308. I would like a nicer more accurate 308 to go with it.

This is the problem, Bullet Jacket: Bi-metal.
If you want to go Bang, Bang with cheap ammo buy a cheap gun.

 

[shipwreck2]

Do you not like the piston AR's? I believe the scar is piston is that one you prefer?

Piston AR's. SMH....................................and off we gooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[355sigfan]

The Scar is fine if you want a c 308 carbine (battle rifle concept) however if your looking for a precision rifle it's a bit disappointing at least to me. Mine is 1.5 moa with the best match reloads I have. The same loads in my bolt gun are .5 moa. Not saying the scar is bad but just realize what it was made to do. I may be selling mine soon if I can do it win out taking too much of a bath.


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[shipwreck2]

After looking on armslist and gunbroker seems as if pws is almost impossible to find.

 

[jasonfaz]

Primary Weapons Systems MK216 Mod 1, .308 Winchester

 

[Skeld1]

The Scar is fine if you want a c 308 carbine (battle rifle concept) however if your looking for a precision rifle it's a bit disappointing at least to me. Mine is 1.5 moa with the best match reloads I have. The same loads in my bolt gun are .5 moa. Not saying the scar is bad but just realize what it was made to do. I may be selling mine soon if I can do it win out taking too much of a bath.


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The SCAR is a good choice if you want to run around with the gun, shoot from different positions, etc. The POF or any of these other 10 pound guns without optics or magazine are going to be quite a workout to do anything with besides lay on the ground. Not saying it can't be done, just that it will be that much more difficult than using a 7 pound AR15.

 

[Cobracutter]

Do you not like the piston AR's? I believe the scar is piston is that one you prefer?

Scar is not an AR. Apples to Oranges. The AR system was designed as DI. Its a topic that has been beaten to death over the last 5-8 years.

Bottom line, outside of the HK416 in very niche and specialized roles, Piston Ar's are always a poor choice to DI.

More expense, more weight, less accuracy, proprietary parts, less parts availibility, more complex and in most cases, MORE unreliable than DI.

Good rule of thumb, people pushing Piston AR's are the ones you specificaly ignore and do not take any advice from. If you want to learn about AR's go to Lightfighter and M4c. They are much more tuned in over there than most of the populace here.

 

[Cobracutter]

The Scar is fine if you want a c 308 carbine (battle rifle concept) however if your looking for a precision rifle it's a bit disappointing at least to me. Mine is 1.5 moa with the best match reloads I have. The same loads in my bolt gun are .5 moa. Not saying the scar is bad but just realize what it was made to do. I may be selling mine soon if I can do it win out taking too much of a bath.


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Yes beacuse we don't match loads to the gun.........all guns must shoot what one gun shoots well in order to be considered good right?

This forum is littered with people who get 1/2-1MOA out of their SCARS, feel free to search. You are the exception..................Coincidence?

 

[355sigfan]

Cobra I have tried a lot more loads than just one. Show me some one claiming to have a half moa scar and I will show you a liar.


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[355sigfan]

What I find wham I have found from my own experience and from my friends who also own the scar is that it's a battle rifle not a precision rifle. You have even said the same thing yourself. The best claims are 1 moa. That is not the average. In reality it's a 1.5 moa gun with good ammo give or take.


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[355sigfan]

Also the hide is full of people with plenty of knowledge on the ar.


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[Birddog6424]

And if anyone with half a brain had the choice between a DPMS or a JP, which would they choose?

You are cherry picking data

There is also historical precedent in DPMS putting out shitty, out of spec, non QC parts and guns for the last 20 years or so............. That has 100 times the weight of you and ur bubba friends non statistically significant example.

LOL, bubba friends? What's up with that? Are you 12 years old and can't carry on a discussion without name calling? Don't get so hurt over this.

Being the only JP dealer in the state of Idaho, and one of the very few in the entire northwest, I can guarantee you I understand the reliability of JP rifles better than you. I've seen plenty of them break, believe me. Great rifle? Absolutely! Invincible? No such thing. I also don't doubt, based on your narrow minded input, that I have seen a far larger range of manufacturers weapons being used. We carry a dozen different manufacturers here on a regular basis. We've seen just about everything come through at one point or another.

But this is about more than just DPMS versus JP. This is about your attempt to categorize anything below your personal standards as crap, versus everything above your purchase price litmus as being the only rifles worthy of consideration. You would think anyone who has spent any significant amount of time around rifles that see high round count under hard use conditions would simply acknowledge that ALL weapons systems fail. It doesn't matter how much money you spent on them. I've seen cheap Rock River and $800 S&W's that ran like champs for years. And I've seen JP's and Larue's break inside of 5000 rounds. They all can and will break. Period. Anyone who doesn't believe that simply doesn't run them hard enough to find out with enough people around them doing the same thing. Compete in 3 Gun for a while and you will see a VERY broad range of weapons and platforms and you will see them fail.

My personal opinion..... high end rifles aren't always worth the money. Middle of the road quality manufacturers like Daniel Defense, BCM, or slightly higher tags like PWS and LMT are more than enough rifle for 99% of the AR buyers out there. I think the DPMS GII and other decent mid-price ranged AR10's are equally up to the task met by JP, Larue, etc for 99% of the buyers.

Just my humble opinion based on personal experience. It's not a knock on high end weapons, they are certainly fantastic. It's more an acknowledgement that there are a lot of mid priced weapons that are pretty darn nice these days.

 

[Birddog6424]

Thanks for all of the fun input

I am looking at piston designs for ammo reasons and adding a suppressor. That being said I think I have a good idea of what POF has to offer-thanks for all the input. A few have mentioned HK-look great but too much money.

What is your take on PWS MK 216 rifle?

The PWS is a great rifle. We are a dealer and have sold tons of them. I have a handful hanging on the wall behind me, and we are just 10 minutes from their shop.

Good bunch of guys who take their product very seriously. They made some great changes with the free float rail and adjustable block for suppressors. A good friend of mine bought a 218 and added a PRS stock, a 2lb Hypertouch trigger, and a Viper 4x16 FFP scope, and it's a tack driver.

 

[Cobracutter]

What I find wham I have found from my own experience and from my friends who also own the scar is that it's a battle rifle not a precision rifle. You have even said the same thing yourself. The best claims are 1 moa. That is not the average. In reality it's a 1.5 moa gun with good ammo give or take.


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I get around .75 with 168FGMM , SW175 and CC 175 Gasser Ammo. Cousin's gun shoots a tad tighter (must be the more accurate FDE) and my Dad's gun shoots closer to 1MOA. Sounds like your peeps needs to learn some marksmanship. Next time I head down to quantico, I'll take some pics.

 

[Cobracutter]

LOL, bubba friends? What's up with that? Are you 12 years old and can't carry on a discussion without name calling? Don't get so hurt over this.

Being the only JP dealer in the state of Idaho, and one of the very few in the entire northwest, I can guarantee you I understand the reliability of JP rifles better than you. I've seen plenty of them break, believe me. Great rifle? Absolutely! Invincible? No such thing. I also don't doubt, based on your narrow minded input, that I have seen a far larger range of manufacturers weapons being used. We carry a dozen different manufacturers here on a regular basis. We've seen just about everything come through at one point or another.

But this is about more than just DPMS versus JP. This is about your attempt to categorize anything below your personal standards as crap, versus everything above your purchase price litmus as being the only rifles worthy of consideration. You would think anyone who has spent any significant amount of time around rifles that see high round count under hard use conditions would simply acknowledge that ALL weapons systems fail. It doesn't matter how much money you spent on them. I've seen cheap Rock River and $800 S&W's that ran like champs for years. And I've seen JP's and Larue's break inside of 5000 rounds. They all can and will break. Period. Anyone who doesn't believe that simply doesn't run them hard enough to find out with enough people around them doing the same thing. Compete in 3 Gun for a while and you will see a VERY broad range of weapons and platforms and you will see them fail.

My personal opinion..... high end rifles aren't always worth the money. Middle of the road quality manufacturers like Daniel Defense, BCM, or slightly higher tags like PWS and LMT are more than enough rifle for 99% of the AR buyers out there. I think the DPMS GII and other decent mid-price ranged AR10's are equally up to the task met by JP, Larue, etc for 99% of the buyers.

Just my humble opinion based on personal experience. It's not a knock on high end weapons, they are certainly fantastic. It's more an acknowledgement that there are a lot of mid priced weapons that are pretty darn nice these days.

My personal opinion, Never trust someone trying to sell you a product. Take EVERYTHING they say with a grain of salt.........

Conflict of interest and all that..........Selling a gun does not make one a competent expert on the usage of the product. Plenty of Car Salesmen out there........very few NASCAR and F1 drivers.

 

[355sigfan]

I get around .75 with 168FGMM , SW175 and CC 175 Gasser Ammo. Cousin's gun shoots a tad tighter (must be the more accurate FDE) and my Dad's gun shoots closer to 1MOA. Sounds like your peeps needs to learn some marksmanship. Next time I head down to quantico, I'll take some pics.

I think I got the marksmanship thing down but thanks. LOL
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

My personal opinion, Never trust someone trying to sell you a product. Take EVERYTHING they say with a grain of salt.........

Conflict of interest and all that..........Selling a gun does not make one a competent expert on the usage of the product. Plenty of Car Salesmen out there........very few NASCAR and F1 drivers.

My personal take is never trust anyone who tells you there is only one true gun like the SCAR 17. They have a tendency to justify their personal choice above all others and will go to great links to do so and will try to attack anyone who disagrees with them. The truth is their are lots of good choices out there.
Pat

 

[eightyeight mag]

.

 

[Birddog6424]

Conflict of interest and all that..........Selling a gun does not make one a competent expert on the usage of the product. Plenty of Car Salesmen out there........very few NASCAR and F1 drivers.

Well that's not quite right is it....

If you wanted to know everything about a NASCAR or F1 car, who would you ask? The driver or the crew who built it?

If I want to know what kind of car to buy I'm not going to talk to a guy who drives a Honda. All he knows is his Honda.

I can guarantee you, because I see it every day, the guy who sells and builds these things knows far more about them than the people who buy them. We are the guys who fix them when they break, answer questions when they malfunction, have to know how dozens of different weapons operate, know the good from the bad, the ammo, the accessories. I handle and discuss rifles, pistols, and shotguns every single day, 40+ hours a week. Not to mention hours of dry fire and live fire practice every week for 3 gun, USPSA, and LRTR.

Just squeezing a trigger on a range is easy in comparison.

 

[355sigfan]

I've shot many a clover leaf with my scar and 168gr fgmm at a 100 yards. Easily under a 1 moa rifle.
Maybe I just was lucky and got a shooter.
I do have the geissele trigger in it which is a night and day improvement from stock.
just my .02

But what is the average group size.
I have a Geissele trigger as well and most of my load testing was done when I was using a Nightforce 2.5-10 scope.
SCAR 17 Targets Photos by 355sigfan | Photobucket

Sometimes I could get groups like this.


But its not the norm for the rifle.
This is the norm I have seen with my best load.

 

[eightyeight mag]

.

 

[eightyeight mag]

.

 

[355sigfan]

Mind posting some pics of the groups your shooting like I have.
Pat

 

[Cobracutter]

Well that's not quite right is it....

If you wanted to know everything about a NASCAR or F1 car, who would you ask? The driver or the crew who built it?

If I want to know what kind of car to buy I'm not going to talk to a guy who drives a Honda. All he knows is his Honda.

I can guarantee you, because I see it every day, the guy who sells and builds these things knows far more about them than the people who buy them. We are the guys who fix them when they break, answer questions when they malfunction, have to know how dozens of different weapons operate, know the good from the bad, the ammo, the accessories. I handle and discuss rifles, pistols, and shotguns every single day, 40+ hours a week. Not to mention hours of dry fire and live fire practice every week for 3 gun, USPSA, and LRTR.

Just squeezing a trigger on a range is easy in comparison.

Some of us have been in this game a long time. Some have been doing it in a proffesional and serious hobbiest manner for a long time. 90% of the trash that comes through a gun store, is just that trash. A mark, an informed customer usualy pushed products be a equaly uninformed salesman. Even the best shops, are still WAY behind the curve. It is almost impossible to be a competent and honest object gun nut and a gun salesman. They are mutualy exclusive.

There are a very small percentage who eat breath and live this shit. I have yet to meet someone who peddles this shit come close to my level of firearms competence and knowledge. Hundreds of FFL's and various sales people over multiple states... and I'm still waiting. You might find a guy who knows more about revolvers or ruger #1's or some other subset, but overall......VERY few across the full spectrum.

 

[355sigfan]

Some of us have been in this game a long time. Some have been doing it in a proffesional and serious hobbiest manner for a long time. 90% of the trash that comes through a gun store, is just that trash. A mark, an informed customer usualy pushed products be a equaly uninformed salesman. Even the best shops, are still WAY behind the curve. It is almost impossible to be a competent and honest object gun nut and a gun salesman. They are mutualy exclusive.

There are a very small percentage who eat breath and live this shit. I have yet to meet someone who peddles this shit come close to my level of firearms competence and knowledge. Hundreds of FFL's and various sales people over multiple states... and I'm still waiting. You might find a guy who knows more about revolvers or ruger #1's or some other subset, but overall......VERY few across the full spectrum.

While their are some ignorant people in the gun retail business there are also some good people as well. Just like any profession. Some good some bad. I think its very unfair of you to slam Birdog6424 without even knowing him just because he does not share your opinion.

 

[Cobracutter]

While their are some ignorant people in the gun retail business there are also some good people as well. Just like any profession. Some good some bad. I think its very unfair of you to slam Birdog6424 without even knowing him just because he does not share your opinion.

I wasn't slaming him.... I stated why I have a great distrust of salesman who push products based on a that theory being proven every single time I have walked into a gun or any store for that matter. A manufacture is more likely to reccomend a competing product than a saleman reccomending something they don't stock/sell.

He got pissy, offended and started to make arguements against claims I did not even make. Strawman at it's best.

 

[Mincer]

Back to the original question,
The Gen4 POF P308 might not be worth the extra 1K over the Ruger SR 762, but A Gen3 POF is certainly better for less money.

I own Ruger's piston 5.56 and it's reliable, a bit heavy and not necessarily accurate, so their 7.62 wouldn't be my first choice for a piston driven precision shooter. I was looking at the Sig 716 DMR since it was around 2200, but it's so new to the market- it's is hard to find any unbiased reviews (imagine that) and I heard about some issues with the fit & finish (specifically on the top rail).
To be honest, I never took a good look at POF because the price was out of my range. I finally came across a dealer (Gotammo in AZ) advertising them on Armslist for under $1750. They're not the Gen4, but they are Gen3's going for below dealer cost. When I compared features to other "DMR" or SASS type rifles, $1749 for a piston 308 with a 20" match barrel with 5R rifling, light weight (2lbs lighter than the SIG) sounded like a great deal. I got my rifle yesterday and the weight, fit and finish on everything is exemplary. You're not going to get a cheap bipod or folding backup sights that most of the lower budget SASS, DMR, REPR style rifles come with out of the box, but you will get a much higher quality shooter with a barrel and internals every bit as good as the $3000 and up "precision" ARs. I even like the stock trigger. By spending 1749.00 on the Rifle I was able to get myself higher quality accessories for the same as the cost of the DMR. Attached is a pic of my P308 with an Atlas Bipod & Larue mount, Ergo Deluxe Grip, Burris red dot mounted offset on the other side (not visible in this pic) for close range & backup duty. I spent about $2050 for the rifle as you see it in the picture (minus the scope and rings). I'm not feeling like I got last year's model because this one is Factory Fresh, the "Completion Date" on the warranty card reads 8/6/2014. To me it's a no brainier, like picking up a new 2014 Range Rover for the price of a 2015 Grand Cherokee.
I purchased this rifle last week and they still had a bunch in stock if you're interested.
Best of luck!

 

[eightyeight mag]

Mind posting some pics of the groups your shooting like I have.
Pat

.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Some of us have been in this game a long time. Some have been doing it in a proffesional and serious hobbiest manner for a long time.

If you don't say so yourself.

 

[-Nick-]

I have yet to meet someone who peddles this shit come close to my level of firearms competence and knowledge.

This is what happens when narcissism, age, and the internet intersect... You talk about objectivity yet you are literally the biggest KAC and SCAR fanboy on the Hide.

 

[355sigfan]

Someone once told me when I was young and full of myself that arrogance and mediocrity are a poor combination.


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[Dynamic Response]

POF over the ruger for sure. I've seen POF 308 for 1800.

 

[deersniper]

I said "the heavier bolt mass you mention" only because those were your words. It's not the mass of the bolt alone but the collective parts referred to as "reciprocating mass" that I am referring to. And in a SCAR it certainly does reduce felt recoil as it absorbs a larger degree of recoil energy and doesn't move at the velocity lighter units will. That said, 3 gunners certainly do run extremely light carriers in addition to light springs and hollowed out buffers. They are also using ammunition appropriate for such a set up. Considering the SCAR's design intent is specifically geared towards mil applications running 7.62 NATO pressures that heavy reciprocating mass is really nice to have and helps keep the muzzle rise to a minimum. There's a shit load more to recoil mgmt outside of the single aspect of reciprocating mass. If that wasn't the case we'd have a bunch of dudes runnin rifles with titanium carriers and carbon fiber handguards up mountains in the Ghan.

LOL. .308 has higher pressure than 7.62Nato.


And Snipershide used to be pretty full of knowledgable professions.

This thread sounds like a bunch of little kids arguing. Can't back up your argument with facts? Just start calling the other person names.

 

[jasonfaz]

LOL. .308 has higher pressure than 7.62Nato.


And Snipershide used to be pretty full of knowledgable professions.

This thread sounds like a bunch of little kids arguing. Can't back up your argument with facts? Just start calling the other person names.

Read slow and try harder to sound everything out over there Einstein. I never said 7.62 NATO produced greater pressures than .308 Win. My comparison was in the context of 3 gunners' handloads that have predictable and repeatable internal ballistics properties. The heavier mass keeps the bolt locked longer and pressures moving forward as opposed to moving towards the shooter.

M118LR is loaded to 52,000 CUP anyway, rendering pressures nearly identical. Discussion was about a rifles design intent, not comparing 7.62 NATO to 308 Win. Thanks for the fantastic contribution though.