We don't have super douper special rifle loads in 3 gun with magical internal ballistics.
Pat
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Is the POF P308 G4 worth the extra thousand over Ruger SR-762?
- Thread starter shipwreck2
- Start date
We don't have super douper special rifle loads in 3 gun with magical internal ballistics.
Pat
You ever think that maybe someone forms an opinion based on experience? It's not like I woke up one day and said you know what, KAC and FN are great. I am very objective and have numerous times repeated why I support both entities. Take a look at the top circles of the military and industry, all the top trainers and pros. There is a reason many of them shoot KAC and own KAC as personal guns. The only people that talk shit about it, are former mil who were issued rifles that were speced the way the ARMY wanted them, not KAC, coupled along with poor maintenance. The others are those too poor too afford quality, so they run their sucks to justify their cheaper purchases. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
So next time, try to think a tad before posting bone headed dumb shit.
I think despite what you want everyone to believe you only really shoot those with an regularity and you believe just because the Military uses it then it must be great. My statement stands...
Cobracutter Quote: "So next time, try to think a tad before posting bone headed dumb shit."
Nick Quote: "I think despite what you want everyone to believe you only really shoot those with an regularity and you believe just because the Military uses it then it must be great. My statement stands…"
I have to agree with Nick on his statement. It seems whenever CC gets opposing opinions that don't agree with his posts he always resorts to personal attacks. That's to bad. If he was more diplomatic with his rhetoric and less venomous, with all his experience which I take at face value I am sure Hide members would take him more seriously.
Nick Quote: "I think despite what you want everyone to believe you only really shoot those with an regularity and you believe just because the Military uses it then it must be great. My statement stands…"
I have to agree with Nick on his statement. It seems whenever CC gets opposing opinions that don't agree with his posts he always resorts to personal attacks. That's to bad. If he was more diplomatic with his rhetoric and less venomous, with all his experience which I take at face value I am sure Hide members would take him more seriously.
The brake (on a par with the pws) and excellent trigger out of the box make the pof an easy choice. Just saying.
I have a buddy who works at Crane and he's put about 80K rounds through a SCAR Heavy….He hates the rifle. His biggest complaint has been the destruction of optics. He's testing the highest quality optics from the most respected manufactures and for whatever reason the SCAR heavy shakes those babies apart. Some have performed pretty well but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
Then don't say dumb, non logical bullshit. It's really that simple. I don't have the time or inclination to hold your hand and explain the subtle nuances. Its fine if you disagree, but if you want to start slinging shit, I'm your huckleberry.
No one is asking you to hold there hand or even what you to. Just state you position pro or con like a gentlemen, it really doesn't take any longer, rather than your usual vitriolic responses. Many of your responses are helpful but the profane additions to those responses serves no useful purpose other than to ellicit flames from other Hide members.
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A guy that wants to hold another guys hand..... kinky but likley has experience / expertise in that field as well.
Dude... I nearly fell out of my chair... lol...
As usual another thread has turned to shit. If the OP is still around, Long Mountain Outfitters in Las Vegas is selling 16'' and 20" POF's for $1900. Here is their number 702-564-3272.
*I don't work for these people, but I saw it in their shop earlier*
*I don't work for these people, but I saw it in their shop earlier*
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Thanks guys. Just an update I have ruled out the POF and have narrowed it down to the Ruger 762 & the Scar. Obviously I prefer the scar but we will see how the funds look.
Before you settle on the SCAR 17 be aware that the accuracy problems with the SCAR are not hype. Here's a post from a SCAR 17 owner that was having accuracy problems with his SCAR. He was using an ADM REcon-X mount. It might help you avoid the accuracy problems if you go with the SCAR 17.
Update - ADM received my returned mount
ADM sent me this email today:
Good Afternoon,
We received and looked over your AD-Recon-X mount. All of the Specs on the mount are in tolerance.
What I believe is happening, since it is being used on a 7.62mm SCAR is that the heavy recoil impulse is causing the cantilevered front to vibrate a lot during the shots, throwing the shots off.
I would suggest either an AD-Recon-S or AD-Delta for use on the SCAR. The AD-Delta is used by FN and SOCOM on their SCAR’s.
Please let me know what you would like to do, and we will get it taken care of.
Thank you and have a great day.
Yet I can post 50 examples of SCAR owners who have steller accuracy with their rifles...........
ADM also blows. Its a step above Larue, but not by much.
First problem, is replacing that shitty fucking mount with either a quality 1 piece that is torqued to spec or Bobro/GDI. There, your problem is solved.......... Putting cheap shit on a $2500 gun.....priceless.
SCAR accuracy issues and issues with optics and mounts is well known. You are in denial Cobra. Not saying its a shitty gun but it does have its own unique set of quirks that need to be factored in when a person is considering buying one. While I am not a huge fan of ADM they generally hold zero. That poster would not have had that issue on an AR10. I got the best accuracy results with my Scar the other day and my average was 1.13 moa for 6 3 shot groups fired. I had to go down to using 3 shot groups and letting the gun cool between each group fired. (better groups with my 1-6 Vortex by the way than in the past with my 2.5-10 Nightforce)
One of my biggest pet peeves with my SCAR is nearly every time I checked the zero after say not shooting it for a few months it would be off some times by as much as 2 moa. I went to the Bobro mount you see above and I hope it fixes the issue.
Pat
One of my biggest pet peeves with my SCAR is nearly every time I checked the zero after say not shooting it for a few months it would be off some times by as much as 2 moa. I went to the Bobro mount you see above and I hope it fixes the issue.
Pat
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As Ronald Reagan said "There you go again" As many have reported there are SOME SCAR 17's that have accuracy problems. I don't have to take off an ADM mount. I do not have a SCAR 17 or an ADM mount. So before you go mouthing off again if you carefully read the post I was just reporting what another SCAR 17 owner had posted just to let the OP know there MAY be a problem using a cantilever mount. As 355sigfan said "SCAR accuracy issues and issues with optics and mounts is well known. You are in denial Cobra." Why don't you grow up and clean up your potty mouth.
SCAR accuracy issues and issues with optics and mounts is well known. You are in denial Cobra. Not saying its a shitty gun but it does have its own unique set of quirks that need to be factored in when a person is considering buying one. While I am not a huge fan of ADM they generally hold zero. That poster would not have had that issue on an AR10. I got the best accuracy results with my Scar the other day and my average was 1.13 moa for 6 3 shot groups fired. I had to go down to using 3 shot groups and letting the gun cool between each group fired. (better groups with my 1-6 Vortex by the way than in the past with my 2.5-10 Nightforce)
One of my biggest pet peeves with my SCAR is nearly every time I checked the zero after say not shooting it for a few months it would be off some times by as much as 2 moa. I went to the Bobro mount you see above and I hope it fixes the issue.
Pat
Nice setup Pat. May I ask what is the number of the Bobro mount you are using. I am looking for a mount for my LaRue OBR. I've looked at the Bobro's that Sport Optics carries and am thinking of getting the Bobro.
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There are SOME accuracy issues with every gun ever produced. That is not indicative of the platform.
You are spewing bullshit which you have no experience with. Yes the gun is harsh on CHEAP and shitty optics/mounts. Eotechs had issues and as a result the xps/exps was created to solve those issues. Some lasers, thermals and other devices also had to be hardened, that is good for everyone. We have more robust accessories now as a result.
When you use shitty mounts you will have issues. When you use shitty optics you will have issues. When you don't match the ammo to the gun, you have issues. When you are ignorant you will have issues. This is true with ANY gun platform.
I couldn't give to shits whats Pat says, he does not even see the deficiencies in his posts. If you don't approach this from a scientific method, eliminating and mitigating variables, then you are wasting everyone's time. I don't give a fuck that YOU cant shoot ONE gun, using ONE custom handload, A shitty optic choice for shooting groups and who knows what skill level of the shooter.
Ive seen enough of these guns that shoot first hand, to discount these claims as some sort of platform wide problem. In fact, the vast majority of actual OWNERS, not people who read what other idiots spout on the net........agree with me.
SCAR accuracy issues and issues with optics and mounts is well known. You are in denial Cobra. Not saying its a shitty gun but it does have its own unique set of quirks that need to be factored in when a person is considering buying one. While I am not a huge fan of ADM they generally hold zero. That poster would not have had that issue on an AR10. I got the best accuracy results with my Scar the other day and my average was 1.13 moa for 6 3 shot groups fired. I had to go down to using 3 shot groups and letting the gun cool between each group fired. (better groups with my 1-6 Vortex by the way than in the past with my 2.5-10 Nightforce)
One of my biggest pet peeves with my SCAR is nearly every time I checked the zero after say not shooting it for a few months it would be off some times by as much as 2 moa. I went to the Bobro mount you see above and I hope it fixes the issue.
Pat
Yet FGMM , SWA and CC factory ammo all shoot better 5 shot groups than your handloads do in 3.......................What's the word were looking for here?
Really cobra you sure about that, because I have shot federal gold Medal match in my precision guns and my reloads have been more accurate. In my bolt gun my reload averages .5. Moa with 5 shot groups while federal match averages .8 in the same gun. You have to stop making wild ass assumptions it just hurts your credibility. Everyone else is not wrong the Scar does have some accuracy issues and issues with destroying optics and losing zero. You can put your head in the sand and pretend its not real all you want but that does not change reality.
Lets see your documentation. I won't hold my breath.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lets see your documentation. I won't hold my breath.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Cobra you have a reading comprehension problem. I have shot a lot of different loads in my Scar looking for what it likes. This just happens to be the best load I have in all my .308's. Also you don't understand the scientific method at all. Where is your documentation, your testing. Put your money where your mouth is. Also the SCAR is hard on optics. It does not suddenly go hey there is a nice scope on me so I think I will reduce my forward recoil impulse. Now some optics and mounts can last longer than others but that does not change the fact the issue is there. One thing I think most of us on here can say is we don't give a flying fuck what you have to say anymore on the SCAR because we know what you are going to say. It goes like this. Someone lists an issue or some negative point with the SCAR and you jump in with both feet and your ass spewing forth all sorts of profanity and simple childish statements. This happens in each and every thread. Some posters asks about building an AR10 you say get a SCAR. We get it you like the SCAR. Give it a rest and start accepting that other people have a different opinion including other SCAR owners like myself. People would accept you and your opinions a lot more if you tried using even a little bit of simple tact.
Pat
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Bobro Engineering | Dual Lever Precision Optic Mount 30mm Rings | 20 MOA
The link is above. Actually I recommended this mount to a friend and he ended up going with the Adamount instead and he sold me the Bobro since he already had it. I have Bobro's on all my guns now except my .22 trainer AR.
They make good stuff.
You still don't get it. AS I TOLD YOU IT WAS A POST FROM AN OWNER OF A SCAR 17 THAT WAS HAVING PROBLEMS WITH ACCURACY YES I DON"T KNOW THE SHOOTERS EQUIPMENT OR HIS SKILL LEVEL. THE QUOTE WAS ONLY POSED TO BE HELPFUL TO THE OP SO THAT HE MIGHT CONSIDER THAT IN HIS ULTIMATE DECISION NOTHING MORE OR LESS. Are you so omniscient that you know what ammunition or scope the person had on his SCAR other than the mount. I think not and how do you know hat my background in the field of firearms is, YOU DO NOT. I capitalized the letters so that you might be able to read it as you seem too have comprehension problem. You are nothing more than a loud potty mouth reprobate.
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Ive said a few times, next time I take it out I'll document it. The forward impulse is an issue FOR CHEAP SHIT. Its really that simple. Its not going to shoot a nightforce or an aimpoint lose, but it will shoot a "Greatest warranty in the world beacuse you sure will use it", or some subpar QD or cheap 1 piece.
You claim you are shooting for groups, but using a 6x? That's almost laughable. Did you put it in a sled? Where are your other loads? So it shoots good in your other guns, but not the 17? Its a fucking 1MOA rifle, what do you expect? If anyone was shooting benchrest scores, your looking at the wrong platform. It does it advertises, and does it lighter, more reliably, more ergonomic and with less recoil than anything comparable.
I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else here buys. Its about giving the best advice to those who don't know. People like spew out bullshit and when the OP or some reader is sending his POS or Ruger back because it fucking broke, and he cant get parts, and it does not group well, thats on you. You going to eat the depreciation for them when they decide to buy something of actual quality? Didn't think so.
Thank you for confirming half ass unreliable information repeated by something with total lack of knowledge of the actual system........ Check
I can google machine and find someone who says GAP rifles are pieces of shit that don't shoot, should I sell all my GA guns now too?
Cobra like I have said before you don't need magnification to shoot tight groups. You need a target that matches your reticle well so you can clearly repeat the same hold on the target shot after shot. These groups I fired on 6x were better than ones I fired with 10x on my Nightforce. You simple don't know what your talking about. Sounds like you need some marksmanship training. You are one of those guys that would put a 20x scope on a .308 battle rifle expecting it to be a sniper rifle. LOL. Also that load is the best one in my 17 so far its simply the 17 does not shoot that well. Ok for a battle rifle but its not a precision rifle. Your argument lacks foundation and any documentation to back up what you are claiming. Those of us who have been around can smell BS a mile away.
Pat
How about this if 9 out of 10 SCAR owners say there is a problem then maybe there is a problem. LOL
Pat
No it isn't.
I'm really getting tired of reading on the internet about the SCAR17's "low recoil."
Have the people making this statement ever shot a SCAR17, much less own one? I have and I do and have a number of other rifles chambered in .308 and heavier calibers with which to make comparisons.
In the realm of .308 rifles the SCAR kick's like a fricken mule AND cheek slaps you.....why? All because of its wonderful LOW WEIGHT.
Guess what the SCAR17 DID NOT and could not shoot this group.
Please quit quoting the Cobra troll, I quit reading his nonsense months ago.
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How about if 9 out of 10 dinosaurs say they like to watch miley cyrus part the red sea from her death star??
You are a classic strawman. Inject complete fiction into a question to try and grasp for a point.
And what is your margin of error?
No one said the SCAR was a sniper rifle, No one said to put a 20x on a battle rifle.
But when testing for ACCURACY, you reduce the variables and make it easier to find the mechanical limitation of the gun and ammo, Not the optic or the shooter.
You need to chance your post to , YOUR scar does not shoot well or YOU don't shoot well.
You are one insignificant data point..........and for the point of this discussion, are irrelevant.
Where are ALL these people you claim who says the SCAR does not shoot well? Where are they people touting accuracy and zero problems? Besides you, there are none. However there are a fuck ton in this thread and other who have seen and agree with my claims.
Shoot a 10LB MWS and a 8LB SCAR17 side by side and tell me which has less recoil..........use the same brake.............You are wrong, again.
Pat, there is no sense in either of us trying to talk civilly any longer to that dolt. He always ends up attacking with profanity laced retorts rather than discuss an issue with dignity. No matter what evidence anyone is able to produce he will NEVER acknowledge that he is incorrect even in the slightest in his beliefs. As I said before you gain nothing when you best a fool. Especially this one. As for you being one data point here's another. The lack of accuracy with my SCAR 17 was reason I no longer own it. I forgot to add I had a Spuhr 30mm 6mil mount and a Nightforce scope on my SCAR 17. I guess that a lousy scope and mount. It all went during the frenzy and was happy to see it go.
You just have to look at all the Hide members that have issue with him to know something is not working for him. I guess we are all wrong. Look, Johnny is marching in the parade and everyone else is out of step.
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Good shooting sigfan, OP sorry I offered nothing other than advice not to up your budget for a SCAR17, but you had already received valid responses further up in the thread and I have no personal experience with either of your chosen options. I can say that Ruger generally makes a solid and affordable product, but not generally the best as they build to a specific market at a specific price point.
Sounds like all gun manufacturing companies should just hire one guy with all his wisdom and the people skills of 20 grit sandpaper. It would make life easier for all of us
I think there should be some clarity between recoil and muzzle rise. A lot of people count them as the same thing. I see a distinct difference between them. My personal opinion on my rifles.
SCAR Least recoil, most muzzle rise of the 3.
SR25 EMC very close to recoil of the SCAR if not identical. Least muzzle rise.
MWS Second lowest muzzle rise but the highest recoil of the 3
SCAR has factory PWS brake
SR25 has a Surefire
MWS has a Battlecomp.
For what its worth I have had a number of different optics on the SCAR17 and have had no issues. Elcan Specter Dr, T1 Micro, Aimpoint M4, USO 1.5-6, to name a few and none have had an issue. It was my understanding that a few people put PVS14's on their SCAR17's with tubes not rated for 308 and that is where the optic killer thing started. I haven't actually talked with anyone that has first hand killed a few optics with a 17.
SCAR Least recoil, most muzzle rise of the 3.
SR25 EMC very close to recoil of the SCAR if not identical. Least muzzle rise.
MWS Second lowest muzzle rise but the highest recoil of the 3
SCAR has factory PWS brake
SR25 has a Surefire
MWS has a Battlecomp.
For what its worth I have had a number of different optics on the SCAR17 and have had no issues. Elcan Specter Dr, T1 Micro, Aimpoint M4, USO 1.5-6, to name a few and none have had an issue. It was my understanding that a few people put PVS14's on their SCAR17's with tubes not rated for 308 and that is where the optic killer thing started. I haven't actually talked with anyone that has first hand killed a few optics with a 17.
I will add some positive things about the SCAR 17S I owned. For me at least it stayed on target after every shot and had the least felt recoil of any of my 308 semi's. My LMT MWS had significantly more recoil and muzzle rise then the SCAR 17S even with the PRS stock. When I put a Surefire SOCOM muzzle brake on it that reduced the felt recoil quite a bit almost to the SCAR level. But it was quite a bit more accurate than the SCAR 17S. Usually 1 moa sometimes quite a bit better. I never could get the SCAR 17S much below 1.5 moa with an occasional 1 moa group. Looking back perhaps I should have invested in a Super SCAR trigger. I might still have it. I never had the SCAR cause any scope problems.
Did manage this out of the ordinary group from my Scar at 400 yards. I was out testing my match ammo with the Vortex bullet drop reticle. The 400 hash was dead on. It shot high at 200 and 300 yards. I sighted mine in at 100 yards and that put the hash marks at 200 300 400 and 500 rather than sighting in at 200 yards and going 300 400 500 and 600.
Pat
I was neither pissy, nor offended. I simply disagree with you. I said so several times.
I think you overstate your expertise and give little or no credit to the expertise of others. I would be willing to bet there are multitudes of people who know more or as much about firearms as you do. Including myself. But quite frankly, the perception I receive from you via these boards is that your ego is far too large for you to ever admit or accept that.
I've also been at this a long time. I shot in my first competition 30 years ago. Many othere here can make similar claims. Many people are this forum are very knowledgeable.
And I did address your claims. Reread the thread. You believe no mid level or low priced weapons are any good. Which quite simply isn't true, and very indicative of your lack of knowledge. You talk too much and listen too little to ever learn more than you currently know. That much is clear. You are way too set in your ways and beliefs to ever give credit where credit is due. Your perception of sales people is almost laughable. You're like this mistrustful Archie Bunker kinda guy who thinks the whole world is dishonest and stupid. You must be the only smart, honest guy you know. Just ask you, you'll tell us as much
But it's all good. People can read and make their own decisions. We're all adults here and it's just a forum where people think out loud.
I was neither pissy, nor offended. I simply disagree with you. I said so several times.
I think you overstate your expertise and give little or no credit to the expertise of others. I would be willing to bet there are multitudes of people who know more or as much about firearms as you do. Including myself. But quite frankly, the perception I receive from you via these boards is that your ego is far too large for you to ever admit or accept that.
I've also been at this a long time. I shot in my first competition 30 years ago. Many othere here can make similar claims. Many people are this forum are very knowledgeable.
And I did address your claims. Reread the thread. You believe no mid level or low priced weapons are any good. Which quite simply isn't true, and very indicative of your lack of knowledge. You talk too much and listen too little to ever learn more than you currently know. That much is clear. You are way too set in your ways and beliefs to ever give credit where credit is due. Your perception of sales people is almost laughable. You're like this mistrustful Archie Bunker kinda guy who thinks the whole world is dishonest and stupid. You must be the only smart, honest guy you know. Just ask you, you'll tell us as much
But it's all good. People can read and make their own decisions. We're all adults here and it's just a forum where people think out loud.
I shoot a bunch of glocks, so it's not like I am adverse to cheap guns. You are missing the entire point and are putting words in my mouth that never even crossed my mind.
There are plenty of people who have been shooting for 50+ years that don't know shit. Within 5 mins of meeting someone in the community, you can tell if they are full of shit or they have the goods. Plenty of urban myth and institutional ignorance to go around.
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The truth of the matter is time and experience are the best teachers. There are people out there who don't know much who are older but there are plenty more younger folks who think the know everything and are too naive to listen to the old dogs when they should.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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To the OP, there is a place in the Phoenix, AZ (See link below) area that is selling the last of the gen 3 POF 308 for $1699 (all barrel sizes), I believe the gen 4's go for ~$400 more at this location. I have not purchased a POF 308 from them but one of my employees did. His rifle had a build date from POF that was a week old when he purchased the rifle. Good luck with your decision.
Got Ammo LLC - Firearms, Ammunition & Reloading Supplies
Got Ammo LLC - Firearms, Ammunition & Reloading Supplies
First off, POF P308s are heavy? They come in at 8.5lbs to 8.9lbs, for a 308 semi rifle that isn't really heavy at all. And for their issues in 2012 or before, most piston ARs had issues around this time. And it seems to me there are a lot fewer complaints now than ever before. Also MANY law enforcement departments love their POFs, same with shooting groups, and experienced shooters. They are a sub MOA rifle, that have been recorded to shoot up to 20,000+ rounds full auto and semi without ANY malfunction at all. Seems to me as a pretty reliable and accurate weapon system.
I have a 2009 POF P308 16.5” with over 5000 rounds through her, without any issue at all. This is a rifle I shoot out to 800m, do movement drills, reflex shooting, shot in dirt, shot in sand, etc. Now are they the best, well that is really up to the shooter I’d say. Are they accurate, and reliable, without a doubt they are, and they come with some VERY nice and great features, that no other AR manufactory has even thought of.
Now what to buy? Is it without what you can afford, and what are you looking for? Ruger makes good fire arms, but to get it to where POFs are you will have to buy after market items, which could bring it close to a POF, but you will still end up with less. The POF comes with a fluted barrel, muzzle brake that takes recoil close to my issues M4s, ambidextrous control, E4 tech, 4.5 single stage trigger, and much much more. And like I said I have had no issues with my P308. I even ordered a P308 2014 Gen 4 right when I got back from deployment. Great rifle, but like I said there are many good and great rifles out there.
I hope I was of some help. I wasn’t here to try to talk sh*t, or argue. Just wanted to share my experience with one of the weapon systems. This is coming from a guy who has carried a M240B, M249, M4 (Many times), M110, M21, M24, M107 and more. I’m sure that means little here, but I hope it helps you understand somewhat the experience on the writer, nothing more. Enjoy whatever you buy, and ope to get to see some gun porn when you get her.
Sorry for any misspelling and anything difficult to read, trying to multitask, and like many know, most men suck at such tasks haha.
I have a 2009 POF P308 16.5” with over 5000 rounds through her, without any issue at all. This is a rifle I shoot out to 800m, do movement drills, reflex shooting, shot in dirt, shot in sand, etc. Now are they the best, well that is really up to the shooter I’d say. Are they accurate, and reliable, without a doubt they are, and they come with some VERY nice and great features, that no other AR manufactory has even thought of.
Now what to buy? Is it without what you can afford, and what are you looking for? Ruger makes good fire arms, but to get it to where POFs are you will have to buy after market items, which could bring it close to a POF, but you will still end up with less. The POF comes with a fluted barrel, muzzle brake that takes recoil close to my issues M4s, ambidextrous control, E4 tech, 4.5 single stage trigger, and much much more. And like I said I have had no issues with my P308. I even ordered a P308 2014 Gen 4 right when I got back from deployment. Great rifle, but like I said there are many good and great rifles out there.
I hope I was of some help. I wasn’t here to try to talk sh*t, or argue. Just wanted to share my experience with one of the weapon systems. This is coming from a guy who has carried a M240B, M249, M4 (Many times), M110, M21, M24, M107 and more. I’m sure that means little here, but I hope it helps you understand somewhat the experience on the writer, nothing more. Enjoy whatever you buy, and ope to get to see some gun porn when you get her.
Sorry for any misspelling and anything difficult to read, trying to multitask, and like many know, most men suck at such tasks haha.
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