They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.
Benjamin Franklin
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They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.
Benjamin Franklin
If someone crashed my entry at o' dark thirty, about the only thing I could be certain of is that my bum ticker would probably run past the heart rate limit where my defib fires. From that point on, everything else would become irrelevant. Seriously, whodunit and what sort of vehicle brought them to my door would have little meaning. Whatever way, the consequences would be the same.
To me, questions whether an MRAP would be necessary, adequate, or appropriate to the task would take back seat to other questions, like why innocent civilians are being reduced to defenseless pawns in a power game pitting their tormentors against escalating paramilitary police empowerment. About why hopelessly outnumbered Border Agents with limited resources and self defeating ROE's are being pitted against cartels with bottomless pockets and the rapacity of sharks. About why our Borders are being daily, actively employed as conduits to import death and misery into our country, and export the Nation's wealth without some sort of effective military reinforcement. IMHO, our Borders and Free Fire Zones are not incompatible concepts, regardless of how many elected morons see it differently.
The America our leadership strives toward is apparently some delusional mixture of happy horseshit and wishful thinking that a five year old would question; but grown men and women are periodically elected to enhance in every way affordable and beyond affordable by the people whose interests they are ordained to protect.
It's simple, when the lunatics run the asylum, most things essential are bound to go 'round the bend.
Beat the horses and lament the children, Hell is on the horizon and approaching at a rate once widely believed impossible.
When a populace is disempowered, it weakens from within. It becomes vulnerable from without to the point where a sniffle takes on the proportions of a fatal malady. Someone crashes our Nation's entry, and what good has all this individual disarmament accomplished? When embarking upon the path of rapacious gun control, all paths lead to enslavement whether from within of without. All a hostile alien power need do is stand by and await the point where our own leadership has already done all the hard work for them.
I know not what path others may choose, but mine does not appear to end with a whimper. That choice isn't even being left to me.
I respect my Constitution, my Government no matter how poorly it performs, and the laws I am bound to obey under rule of law. My government is not my enemy, but it is certainly deluded if it thinks that the safety of its citizenry is solely within its purview, and not a role within which individual citizens may participate. Weaken the people, and their Nation becomes correspondingly weakened.
The Gun Control nuts aren't just empowering themselves; they are also empowering every foreign eye that has ever looked askance at the Red, White and Blue.
We have seen the enemy, and they are not us, but they live in wide distribution among us; and the folks they send to the various Capitals within our Nation do the bidding of fools. A genuinely interesting question would be to ask how they became such fools.
There is at least one time in every Nation's course where it needs to reevaluate why it does what it does, and reorient its course toward a more viable and healthy goals. That time has come and is rapidly receding into obscurity. The vast inertia of governments makes about turns neigh impossible. At some point one needs to recognize that the cake' been out in the rain for too long and needs to be replaced in an immediate and more effective manner. When current means and methods keep being repeated with precisely the opposite results of the declared goals, somebody has to throw the psycho flag, and make a serious effort to find that 'reset' button.
I think that omelets make for a great breakfast, no matter how one makes them; but we're already past breakfast time and lunch time, and inexorably approaching a condemned convict's last supper of duck and grits (where one ducks one's head beneath the table top and grits one's teeth)...
I say IMHO that ass is ready and waiting overdue to be kicked.
Greg
To me, questions whether an MRAP would be necessary, adequate, or appropriate to the task would take back seat to other questions, like why innocent civilians are being reduced to defenseless pawns in a power game pitting their tormentors against escalating paramilitary police empowerment. About why hopelessly outnumbered Border Agents with limited resources and self defeating ROE's are being pitted against cartels with bottomless pockets and the rapacity of sharks. About why our Borders are being daily, actively employed as conduits to import death and misery into our country, and export the Nation's wealth without some sort of effective military reinforcement. IMHO, our Borders and Free Fire Zones are not incompatible concepts, regardless of how many elected morons see it differently.
The America our leadership strives toward is apparently some delusional mixture of happy horseshit and wishful thinking that a five year old would question; but grown men and women are periodically elected to enhance in every way affordable and beyond affordable by the people whose interests they are ordained to protect.
It's simple, when the lunatics run the asylum, most things essential are bound to go 'round the bend.
Beat the horses and lament the children, Hell is on the horizon and approaching at a rate once widely believed impossible.
When a populace is disempowered, it weakens from within. It becomes vulnerable from without to the point where a sniffle takes on the proportions of a fatal malady. Someone crashes our Nation's entry, and what good has all this individual disarmament accomplished? When embarking upon the path of rapacious gun control, all paths lead to enslavement whether from within of without. All a hostile alien power need do is stand by and await the point where our own leadership has already done all the hard work for them.
I know not what path others may choose, but mine does not appear to end with a whimper. That choice isn't even being left to me.
I respect my Constitution, my Government no matter how poorly it performs, and the laws I am bound to obey under rule of law. My government is not my enemy, but it is certainly deluded if it thinks that the safety of its citizenry is solely within its purview, and not a role within which individual citizens may participate. Weaken the people, and their Nation becomes correspondingly weakened.
The Gun Control nuts aren't just empowering themselves; they are also empowering every foreign eye that has ever looked askance at the Red, White and Blue.
We have seen the enemy, and they are not us, but they live in wide distribution among us; and the folks they send to the various Capitals within our Nation do the bidding of fools. A genuinely interesting question would be to ask how they became such fools.
There is at least one time in every Nation's course where it needs to reevaluate why it does what it does, and reorient its course toward a more viable and healthy goals. That time has come and is rapidly receding into obscurity. The vast inertia of governments makes about turns neigh impossible. At some point one needs to recognize that the cake' been out in the rain for too long and needs to be replaced in an immediate and more effective manner. When current means and methods keep being repeated with precisely the opposite results of the declared goals, somebody has to throw the psycho flag, and make a serious effort to find that 'reset' button.
I think that omelets make for a great breakfast, no matter how one makes them; but we're already past breakfast time and lunch time, and inexorably approaching a condemned convict's last supper of duck and grits (where one ducks one's head beneath the table top and grits one's teeth)...
I say IMHO that ass is ready and waiting overdue to be kicked.
Greg
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Yesterday a court decided to protect cell phone privacy in a rare unanimous decision. Was this decision no good?
Me? Oh, I'm in the...OH SHIT LOOK OUT!!!
There are horrible people who, instead of solving a problem, tangle it up and make it harder to solve for anyone who wants to deal with it. Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Above are both quotes from Nietzsche. Likely a little too deep for for a person who never developed beyond adolescence like yourself.
Hahahahaha! Oh teach us Zarathustra!
Well...actually I studied existential philosophy at university. Interesting you chose to quote Nietzsche. His writings were bastardized and used by Hitler (along with American eugenics) as the basis of much of the Third Reich. Nietzsche himself however would have recoiled at the idea of jackbooted thugs ganging up on the individual.
Now...back to the fun
Glad my agency bought a Bearcat since everyone hates the MRAP! Hahaha
A few local departments I have worked with have MRAPs. After looking at one they are badass but not great for a SWAT team in a rural environment. Our 20,000 pound bearcat is too much for some roads and driveways. The up armored 70,000 pound MRAP is a great tool to get stuck in.
A few local departments I have worked with have MRAPs. After looking at one they are badass but not great for a SWAT team in a rural environment. Our 20,000 pound bearcat is too much for some roads and driveways. The up armored 70,000 pound MRAP is a great tool to get stuck in.
Hahahahaha! Oh teach us Zarathustra!
Well...actually I studied existential philosophy at university. Interesting you chose to quote Nietzsche. His writings were bastardized and used by Hitler (along with American eugenics) as the basis of much of the Third Reich. Nietzsche himself however would have recoiled at the idea of jackbooted thugs ganging up on the individual.
Now...back to the fun
A real cerebral man you are. And you just proved Godwins Law.
Those who cannot understand how to put their thoughts on ice should not enter into the heat of debate
This shit is getting ridiculous. How about giving them the A-10's we're phasing out? Why do cops think they need all this shit? I'm sure it reduces response time too when they have to doff their police uniform to don tactical shit so they'll look good when CNN shows up.
What a fucking farce.
What a fucking farce.
The only reason for a cop to cover his face? Because he is a criminal and doesn't want to be identified.
Cops have neither the experience nor training to be military units. Hence why the number of people being killed yearly is doubling once police go all military in that area. If you kill someone in the line of duty, and it turns out you killed someone who was guilty of nothing. You should be tried for murder hands down. If you shoot and wound someone in the line of duty, their should be an outside trial, not an IA investigation by your own buddies. When the people who are policing the police happens to be their own friends, you can expect nothing less than a power trip.
Cops have neither the experience nor training to be military units. Hence why the number of people being killed yearly is doubling once police go all military in that area. If you kill someone in the line of duty, and it turns out you killed someone who was guilty of nothing. You should be tried for murder hands down. If you shoot and wound someone in the line of duty, their should be an outside trial, not an IA investigation by your own buddies. When the people who are policing the police happens to be their own friends, you can expect nothing less than a power trip.
Why thank you for your kind words.
For Goodwin's Law to apply, I'd need to call YOU an Nazi which I did not. I just mentioned it's relevance since some people are making comparisons between unwarranted traffic stops, militarized police forces, etc. You're not a Nazi. Maybe I could draw a comparison between those that stood on the sideline and watched the Nazis take power, but you're no Brown Shirt.
Those that quote others incessantly usually have no thoughts of their own.
Now more fun...
OH SHIT DUCK!!!! RPG!!!
Nah, it's been going on for awhile now.
Beware the Fife-Opperator. He knowith no fear.
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And haveith One Bullet!
Interesting to mention a show from the 60's. We need more super spec ops LE (especially in DHHS, EPA and other such dept's), but the homicide rate is at a historically low not seen sense the 60's.
Well duh...It's because we have the super spec ops LE running around and doing hondo rolls all over the place that the murder rate is so low. Nothing scares a criminal shitless like a well executed hondo roll.
Your welcome. But I though you could grasp sarcasm.
No nazi name calling needed just the comparison.
Why re-invent the wheel when someone has already said it perfectly.
And those who have nothing of value to say use pictures.
You can have at it now as I have grown tired of your razor wit. You might need a little time on the wet stone.
Ya'll know what I mean LOL. So, you must admit there's a bit of a striking similarity to the LA bank robbers attire and the new tactic-cop getup. I'm all for equipping the police with the tools they need to get the job done, but fuggin' ninja outfits and MRAPs? Seriously, does Mayberry need a paramilitary police force
Since you like quotes, here's one that you don't need to lift from Nitchie
"As I said, this was my sarcastic summer. It was only long after that I recognized sarcasm as the protest of people who are weak."
- F. Scott Fitzgerald
I will attribute your misunderstanding to Hanlon's Razor...Pause for you to Google that.
Because you're taking those quotes out of context and illustrating that you really have no idea what you're talking about.
It's funny because it makes you butthurt.
Just to dull my edge and make it a fair fight.
We all know you have a copy of "Brainy Quotes For Dummies" and smoke a pipe but that doesn't make you an intellectual.
FS1's butthurt pic of the hour
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That is the way I feel about it. I think the police should be equipped to do their jobs. Does that mean armored vehicles rolling though the neighborhood? no, but as you mentioned the LA bank robbers, that was a prime example of a case when police were not well equipped. When I was growing up in the 80's it seemed most bad guys just had handguns. occasionally there would be a hunting rifle or shot gun. Now a days you got bank robbers with full automatic weapons, 100rd drum magazines and dressed head to toe in Kevlar. You got some freak walking into a movie theater with an AR15 and 1000's of rounds of ammo. The standard issue side arm may not be enough in cases like those.
True, but it's not Fallujah either. Gotta' be a happy medium that doesn't require military style vehicles...Just sayn'
"Americans Killed by Cops Now Outnumber Americans Killed in Iraq War" All you need to know.
Fair enough but an MRAP would have been as useless as tits on a bull. Sounds like we're in agreement on that.
The MRAP is only as good as the infantry protecting it on the outside, no people outside protecting it, they make a nice candle. If our cops need these things we have much more serious issues at play here i
n the good ole USA.
n the good ole USA.
How is that all you need to know, that's even more ignorant then the comment you made before. Is there any stipulations to the circumstances regarding the Americans killed by police? Are you telling me that all or most of those Americans killed by police were unjust and the investigation was corrupt? Is there any time frame stipulations? Are you comparing statistics for 12 year old war to statistics to the last 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 years of civilians being killed by police force nationally?
See why that's not "all you need to know"?
Your just throwing out random "facts" but there is no justification. Again, your just another LE hater that jumps on the band wagon when these threads pop up, it shows in your many other posts regarding the same subject.
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Pusher, I am not a cop hater but I don automatically trust them anymore. I suggest that if you are a cop you guys need to police out the over dressed ninja jackoffs, you guys know who they are on your force/dept. The pendulum will swing the other way and the cops will be castrated of all these goodies , probably too far. Its up to the good ones (99%) to weed out the bad ones.
yup. My wife has been a cop for almost 13 years. She's in a smaller town now but every patrol car has a shotgun and an M4 Carbine.
I agree whole heartedly, this is the kind of rationale I can relate and respect.
The cops around here are what we like to refer to as "Robocops" I got pulled over by state the other day 3 blocks from my house so the cop could "see" if I had my seatbelt on... I was in my lifted bronco and of course he wanted to search it(not without a warrant buddy) I have court in Aug(Just for a seatbelt violation) and I am going to roast his ass. Those kind of cops give good cops bad names.
There is a LOT of competition for that award in this thread, don't just give out that prize to the first pretty face you see.
Unfortunately where I live there is alot of gang activity(thank God I am moving next week) so the cops are all assholes. My neighbor is a city cop and he is a pretty decent fellow but they relegated him to a desk job on nights because he wouldn't write bullshit tickets... The town I live in all the decent folks are leaving because of the gangs so of course the city's revenue now comes mainly from criminal proceedings and traffic stops...
Kinda sums up the situation nicely. Mostly good honest cops, and a mostly broken and corrupt system.
Sheer curiousity, what would be your "happy medium"? You're right in that it's not Fallujah (at least not yet anyway) but there is an increased risk. So what would you like to see cops outfitted with in order to keep them safe?
Glad you asked.
Equipment:
Rifles
Pistols
Shotguns
Body armor
Squad cars/trucks
Radios
Medical gear
Rain gear
Road flares
Condoms I guess...
Not needed:
Military vehicles
Ninja masks
Full auto firearms
Frag grenades
RPGs - I'm looking at you FS1
Nukes
Barbie dolls
Ballet slippers
Personality:
Sense of service
Respect for the law & due process
Humility
Humor
Understanding that they are civil servants (civilians) and not military
Respect for their sworn oath to the people they serve
Most importantly, how about better pay, benefits, and more cops.
Edit: Donuts...I almost forgot donuts. That would be unforgivable.
I don't have a dog in this fight, as I am just a dumb redneck civilian, but correct me if I'm wrong in the fact that I cant remember seeing, hearing or finding a story about police being hit with IED's, RPG's or other highly explosive devices while serving a warrant or otherwise. I don't see what an oversized, over armored , expensive MRAP can do better than a standard up-armored suv or van can do. And the suv or van would be easier to navigate down your standard urban/suburban/rural street. I mean, unless you plan on driving it straight through the front of the building, then maybe the MRAP would get my vote. It just seems like MRAPs would be more useful on the border, as stated in an earlier post.
Its not so much they are getting them for IEDs or RPGs but as of right now they are free. Long term with tires and fuel and breakdowns they will be expensive but a Lenco Bearcat new costs $300,000 And you still have tires fuel and breakdowns to worry about with them too. A used MRAP is the cheapest short term APC. Is all that up armor needed? No. If you did come across an IED or RPG would it be helpful? Hell yes.
As far as covering faces and all that jazz the only time I do is a nomex hood and gas mask for meth labs or I'm stuck watching a house in the blue damn cold for hours at a time. Does the team I'm on use military tactics to clear houses? You bet! Do we think we are a military police force? Not even close. I thought pur team was some big shit until my Buddy, who is Army SF, came back from his first deployment to Afghanistan. After his first war story I felt about a half inch tall and overwhelmingly guilty for ever thinking I was anything close to a badass. Talk about a dose of humility and putting me in place!
A question for all who say SWAT teams are over rated and over stepping their bounds. How would you go about serving a search warrant on a known drug house with 4 known dealers and 2 women inside? You have arrests warrants for 3 of the 6 occupants and there is 2 mean ass pit bulls trained to eat ass. They are all on Facebook holding guns and have made threats to kill anyone who gets in their way especially pigs! And they have 2 AK-47s. Call and set up an appointment? Or kick their door in to surprise them and preserve evidence to see if you can reach the next wrung on the ladder and get their supplier? How would you do it to not only give your brothers beside you the best chance to not get shot because they have young kids to go home to but also execute in a way to keep john Q crack dealer from getting to his gun and getting shot because he doesn't want to serve the 57 years hanging over his head?
As far as covering faces and all that jazz the only time I do is a nomex hood and gas mask for meth labs or I'm stuck watching a house in the blue damn cold for hours at a time. Does the team I'm on use military tactics to clear houses? You bet! Do we think we are a military police force? Not even close. I thought pur team was some big shit until my Buddy, who is Army SF, came back from his first deployment to Afghanistan. After his first war story I felt about a half inch tall and overwhelmingly guilty for ever thinking I was anything close to a badass. Talk about a dose of humility and putting me in place!
A question for all who say SWAT teams are over rated and over stepping their bounds. How would you go about serving a search warrant on a known drug house with 4 known dealers and 2 women inside? You have arrests warrants for 3 of the 6 occupants and there is 2 mean ass pit bulls trained to eat ass. They are all on Facebook holding guns and have made threats to kill anyone who gets in their way especially pigs! And they have 2 AK-47s. Call and set up an appointment? Or kick their door in to surprise them and preserve evidence to see if you can reach the next wrung on the ladder and get their supplier? How would you do it to not only give your brothers beside you the best chance to not get shot because they have young kids to go home to but also execute in a way to keep john Q crack dealer from getting to his gun and getting shot because he doesn't want to serve the 57 years hanging over his head?
Just because you didn't hear of it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. If I remember correctly the two brothers in Boston were lobbing IEDs at the police. I do tend to agree that an MRAP is a bit of overkill and not very useful for an urban environment. But for some of these smaller agencies that can't afford to purchase a Lenco or other suitable means of armor, these things, costing them next to nothing isn't a bad bet. It's certainly better then having nothing and being faced with a situation in which you need something.
Do you guys also tell your plumber what type of wrenches to use or dictate what surgical instruments your surgeon utilizes? Funny thing about doctors, by far, they kill way more people than the police do. Yet I've yet to see all the doc haters emerge and voice their disdain against the medical profession.
Regardless it all boils down to this, if you didn't have asshole, cock sucking scumbag citizens, then you wouldn't have asshole, cock sucking scumbag cops. If folks didn't feel a need to rape, rob, pillage and murder each other, there wouldn't be a need for LE. Start behaving like humans and we'll go away.
