Kestrel Meters Ballistics Official Thread

#251
... I don’t want to just know what my da is when I zero, I want my kestrel to know what the DA was WHEN I zeroed ...
Click to expand...

Exactly !!!

==

Two points on this ...

01 - What I've been calling "device 01" ... i.e. "Real AB" ... i.e. the stand alone AB app which does not connect to the kestrel ... DOES separately record the DA when we zero ... and then when we adjust the DA for a given shot, still uses the original DA as part of the process of computing a solution. It uses both DA's. I can tell this, because sometimes the trajectory will show the 100yd zero with an elevation offset of other than zero ! Which is fine and correct under some conditions.

02 - I am not in the "truing" school. I've tried to read everything I can find that Brian Litz (BL) has written ... on the subject at hand ... and some of it multiple times .. the mantra of "remove variables" sticks hard in my head. I want setting up a gun in any of these devices, 01, 02, 03, or 04 to be fast and easy with the fewest possible variables. The whole idea of a "truing" process is a big variable. And adding such a variable is not something I want to do. I'm looking to minimize the variables. Conditions can be different from day to day ... and what was "true" one day will not be on another.


==
Also, while this thread is 100% focused on the kestrel, I'm trying to use 4 devices separately and together to compute shooting solutions to the extent possible ...
01 - Real AB
02 - RAPTAR S
03 - Kestrel 5700
04 - Kestrel AB LINK
and so my activity is really "out of scope" for this thread. :)
 
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#252
wigwamitus said:
Exactly !!!

==

Two points on this ...

01 - What I've been calling "device 01" ... i.e. "Real AB" ... i.e. the stand alone AB app which does not connect to the kestrel ... DOES separately record the DA when we zero ... and then when we adjust the DA for a given shot, still uses the original DA as part of the process of computing a solution. It uses both DA's. I can tell this, because sometimes the trajectory will show the 100yd zero with an elevation offset of other than zero ! Which is fine and correct under some conditions.

02 - I am not in the "truing" school. I've tried to read everything I can find that Brian Litz (BL) has written ... on the subject at hand ... and some of it multiple times .. the mantra of "remove variables" sticks hard in my head. I want setting up a gun in any of these devices, 01, 02, 03, or 04 to be fast and easy with the fewest possible variables. The whole idea of a "truing" process is a big variable. And adding such a variable is not something I want to do. I'm looking to minimize the variables. Conditions can be different from day to day ... and what was "true" one day will not be on another.


==
Also, while this thread is 100% focused on the kestrel, I'm trying to use 4 devices separately and together to compute shooting solutions to the extent possible ...
01 - Real AB
02 - RAPTAR S
03 - Kestrel 5700
04 - Kestrel AB LINK
and so my activity is really "out of scope" for this thread. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting! So are you saying that AB in the kestrel intentionally leaves out the ability to input da when zeroing? Is it implied that da does not matter when zero is obtained?
 
#253
... Thanks for posting! So are you saying that AB in the kestrel intentionally leaves out the ability to input da when zeroing? Is it implied that da does not matter when zero is obtained? ...
Click to expand...

"Intentions" is tough ... I cannot go that far !

But we clearly see the zeroing atmospherics present in the "REAL AB" (the stand alone app we can download to our phone) and we clearly see they are not present in any of the other three devices.

I do not think it is implied that it does not matter. I do think we can go that far.

==
We can say it is missing.

And we can compare the outputs of the various devices and decide what course of action is indicated for us, individually, based on our goals. For instance I have three goals:

01 - Dots and Groups at 100yds
02 - IPSC (2/3) steel to 900yds (night and day, rain and shine, hot and cold) ... trying to decide whether to add requirement for 1200yds. Current requirement is 900yds. With "face" (6x6) at 640yds and under.
03 - Critter control, protecting chickens and cattle (calves during calving) from predators
 
#254
NorthWesterner said:
Thanks for posting! So are you saying that AB in the kestrel intentionally leaves out the ability to input da when zeroing? Is it implied that da does not matter when zero is obtained?
Click to expand...
It doesn’t matter what your DA is when you zero. DA will affect your drops/holds at distance but at 100 yards it doesn’t matter. What matters is muzzle velocity and that’s changed by temp not DA. It’s more important to know your MV and at what temp when zeroing and what the change in velocity per degree of your powder is than what DA is.

Problem with using DA is that a given DA can be derived many different ways. Let’s just use a DA of 1000 ft as an example (for simplicity I’ll ignore humidity and some effects of pressure but understand I know they r there).

Two quick examples a 1000 DA could exist is:

1. Sea level, 29.92 inHg and 64 degrees F is roughly 1000 ft DA.
2. 1000 ft elevation, 28.92 and 57 degrees F is also a DA if 1000 ft.

If I zeroed at 1000 ft DA and that’s all I tracked and when I look at atmospherics that made up that DA let’s say they were 27.92 and 40 degrees. If I go to location 2 above and shoot, is my zero the same or different and why?
 
#255
TacticalDillhole said:
It doesn’t matter what your DA is when you zero. DA will affect your drops/holds at distance but at 100 yards it doesn’t matter. What matters is muzzle velocity and that’s changed by temp not DA. It’s more important to know your MV and at what temp when zeroing and what the change in velocity per degree of your powder is than what DA is.

Problem with using DA is that a given DA can be derived many different ways. Let’s just use a DA of 1000 ft as an example (for simplicity I’ll ignore humidity and some effects of pressure but understand I know they r there).

Two quick examples a 1000 DA could exist is:

1. Sea level, 29.92 inHg and 64 degrees F is roughly 1000 ft DA.
2. 1000 ft elevation, 28.92 and 57 degrees F is also a DA if 1000 ft.

If I zeroed at 1000 ft DA and that’s all I tracked and when I look at atmospherics that made up that DA let’s say they were 27.92 and 40 degrees. If I go to location 2 above and shoot, is my zero the same or different and why?
Click to expand...
I see your point about DA being the same given a change in the variables, so long as it is an equil DA. I agree the temp at zero is huge as well. That factor must be recorded. If you are saying DA when zeroing does not matter and will not create a zero offset, than I will take that at face value. I need to go prove that to myself. I’m not confused about DA, just why it’s not a factor when zeroing.
 
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#256
NorthWesterner said:
I’m not confused about DA, just why it’s not a factor when zeroing.
Click to expand...

Simple answer: because 100yds is too close for anything environmentally related to affect trajectory in a significant amount.

Weapon and ammo temperature is a different story though.

 
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#257
kestrel 5700 W/link...kestrel link ballistics app on iphone...

is there a way to get live weather/wind up dates to the range or target card on the link app on my iphone or do i have to capture wind and re-pull targets from the kestrel every time i need/want an update?
 
#258
47guy said:
is there a way to get live weather/wind up dates to the range or target card on the link app on my iphone or do i have to capture wind and re-pull targets from the kestrel every time i need/want an update?
Click to expand...

I believe if you setup the Kestrel on a tripod/wind vane and set temp and wind to live (vs lock) this will work.

That said, I generally do weather captures periodically through the day and take directional wind measurements just before stages. (When using at matches)
 
#259
47guy said:
kestrel 5700 W/link...kestrel link ballistics app on iphone...

is there a way to get live weather/wind up dates to the range or target card on the link app on my iphone or do i have to capture wind and re-pull targets from the kestrel every time i need/want an update?
Click to expand...

Yes, do this:
Display/Auto Shutdown set to off
Environment set to Live
Wind highlight and press the red acquisition key once so there is an arrow behind Wind
Set the Kestrel in the wind vane and the readout on you app will be real time, remember the app will control the Kestrel once linked so range will need to be set in the app.
 
#260
Kestrel Ballistics said:
Yes, do this:
Display/Auto Shutdown set to off
Environment set to Live
Wind highlight and press the red acquisition key once so there is an arrow behind Wind
Set the Kestrel in the wind vane and the readout on you app will be real time, remember the app will control the Kestrel once linked so range will need to be set in the app.
Click to expand...

thanks...did what you said and still not getting a live feed on the target or range cards.

im not sure what im doing wrong ive went through it several times...i get a live feed on the app on my phone in single target but not on the others.
 
#262
47guy said:
thanks...did what you said and still not getting a live feed on the target or range cards.

im not sure what im doing wrong ive went through it several times...i get a live feed on the app on my phone in single target but not on the others.
Click to expand...
Did you use the Pull Targets from Kestrel button and the Edit Target button?
 
#265
FW 1.25
I have a question about Compass in Weather and ballistic mode.. Weather mode gives me this:
20190613_011012.jpg
It looks like it fails to show any statistics of direction? It shows nothing even if I attempt to capture.

Also, I have done the compass calibration 4 or 5 times and I could not get it to line up with my real compass, (which was checked OK with a map.) So I used the magnetic direction with the var set to 25°W

Now everytime I choose direction for a target card I point it, capture it at 220 degrees and after capturing it changes it 25°W degrees more!

The final result is actually correct so it looks like it forgots to show the real direction value while capturing.
 
#266
NorthWesterner said:
I see your point about DA being the same given a change in the variables, so long as it is an equil DA. I agree the temp at zero is huge as well. That factor must be recorded. If you are saying DA when zeroing does not matter and will not create a zero offset, than I will take that at face value. I need to go prove that to myself. I’m not confused about DA, just why it’s not a factor when zeroing.
Click to expand...
I think we're clear with this but just wanted to add that Kestrel indeed seems to pretty much lock your zero.
Under Enviro... menu (If set to Lock) you can change the Temp, Baro and RH settings manually and it will update the DA info.
Even if I change the weather radically from -10F to 100 it will remain in calling me 0.01D mil.
Like DA from 1600 to 990, no change?
Does this mean Kestrel relies that the zero it is given is ALWAYS confirmed with the weather? This seems to defeat the idea of "first shot confidence"

Surely there is something I have missed?

Tested 50yd zeroed data at 100m with 22LR profile (very weather sensitive flight)

Range 100m, zero at 50m
490 DA
Temp 30C
975mb
43RH
-2.35mil UP
-0.71R wind (3.0 m/s)

1413 DA
Temp -22C
1022mb
43RH
-2.6mil UP (0.25mil difference)
-1.14R wind (3.0 m/s)

With these weather changes 50m zero Kestrel shows 0.01mil DOWN all the time. I'd think it would change at least by 0.001 more?
It just does not move anywhere with these changes. Seems like Kestrel uses "floating" zero?
 
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#267
From the Applied Ballistics web site:
Zero Range – [Yards or Meters] This is the range at which your rifles Point Of Aim (POI) equals the Point Of Impact (POI). A Zero range of 100 yards or meters is encouraged for several reasons, including insensitivity to atmospheric conditions, and accounting for inclined fire effects.

you should not see any usable elevation holds for your 100 yd zero range, regardless of location. Regarding your testing using a 22lr, please look at the Links section for information on the 22lr as it is trans-sonic for most of its travel and is affected by environment very early on.
 
#268
Near miss said:
FW 1.25
I have a question about Compass in Weather and ballistic mode.. Weather mode gives me this:
View attachment 7094125
It looks like it fails to show any statistics of direction? It shows nothing even if I attempt to capture.

Also, I have done the compass calibration 4 or 5 times and I could not get it to line up with my real compass, (which was checked OK with a map.) So I used the magnetic direction with the var set to 25°W

Now everytime I choose direction for a target card I point it, capture it at 220 degrees and after capturing it changes it 25°W degrees more!

The final result is actually correct so it looks like it forgots to show the real direction value while capturing.
Click to expand...

There are no statistic for direction see here https://kestrelinstruments.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/265/
 
#269
Kestrel Ballistics said:
From the Applied Ballistics web site:
Zero Range – [Yards or Meters] This is the range at which your rifles Point Of Aim (POI) equals the Point Of Impact (POI). A Zero range of 100 yards or meters is encouraged for several reasons, including insensitivity to atmospheric conditions, and accounting for inclined fire effects.

you should not see any usable elevation holds for your 100 yd zero range, regardless of location. Regarding your testing using a 22lr, please look at the Links section for information on the 22lr as it is trans-sonic for most of its travel and is affected by environment very early on.
Click to expand...
I bought this device partly to help with, learn/understand and record the atmospheric conditions that greatly impact 22LR shooting.

Yes, looking at the 100m zero test on my previous post it will be only around 0.1mil variance at 50m between summer and winter season.. Not sure how this will change shots 150m and beyond? Maybe I should zero at 25?

But I think I am going to return this and wait for the 4DOF, hoping there will be released Elite version for more profiles and range card? I know the Hornady Kestrel does zeroing with atmospheric condition recorded.

Comparing AB's Elite Kestrel to 4DOF the AB has DSF but it still won't make it any more accurate if the zero conditions are ever changing.

Edit:
Although since this has never been pointed out so far, is it so bad.. Maybe it isn't that big of a deal. I do hope they will add it, I would not mind it at all.
 
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#270
"I know the Hornady Kestrel does zeroing with atmospheric condition recorded. "

This is not the case. The Hornady Kestrel does not store any zero environmental data. You may be thinking of their Zero Angle calculation which works independently of zero conditions, but no conditions are stored for zero.
 
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#271
I'm having trouble getting my 5700 Elite with Link to connect to the Kestrel Ballistics Link app on my Android tablet. It has all worked in the past. And they connected together even earlier today. And then nothing. Both devices have Bluetooth turned on. I tried to restart both devices. Kestrel is running 1.25.
 
#272
Check your tablet settings to be sure it is not already connected to another device using bluetooth. If that is not it, try downloading the Kestrel Link app (not ballistic) and see if that connects, if yes start and stop the connection a few times then close the app and see if the ballistic app will connect. There were no changes to your tablet prior to the connection issue?
 
#273
Kestrel Ballistics said:
Check your tablet settings to be sure it is not already connected to another device using bluetooth. If that is not it, try downloading the Kestrel Link app (not ballistic) and see if that connects, if yes start and stop the connection a few times then close the app and see if the ballistic app will connect. There were no changes to your tablet prior to the connection issue?
Click to expand...
Thanx for the reply. There were no changes to my tablet...but I was helping a friend set his Kestrel up. So perhaps my tablet was connected to his unit and didn't 'see' mine. I will try it all again.
 
#275
Kestrel Ballistics Announcement

New Firmware 1.27 & Kestrel Ballistics App Update!

In addition to the latest firmware 1.27 release, we have also made improvements to the Kestrel LiNK Ballistics app that will prompt users to perform an update.

How does it work?

LiNK Ballistics app users will get notification that an update is required to continue using the LiNK app

NOTE: Because of the added encryption and improved security features, the update connection may take a little longer than usual.



Who does this affect?

  • Customers with Kestrel 5700 & 5700 Elite with LiNK units
  • Kestrel LiNK Ballistics app users (iOs and Android)
What’s coming with the new update? [Benefits]

The new Kestrel LiNK Ballistics app will have the firmware update contained in it, so users will not need an internet connection to update firmware for 1.27. In addition to the improvements to the overall stability of the app, there are several other improvements to expect:

  • No more lost or erased Gun Profiles -- Gun Profile data will remain saved with every firmware update
  • Saved Kestrel values -- App will no longer overwrite Kestrel values upon first connection
  • Better security -- Privacy PIN issues have been fixed




*If customers do not want to update firmware at this time, please go to Google Playstore or Apple Store and unclick Automatic Updates for the Kestrel LiNK Ballistics program. Then, users can continue to use the current version of the unit firmware and LiNK Ballistics app without any changes.
 
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#277
My Elite is firmware 1.21. The app will not give me the option to update. I have reinstalled the app multiple times, factory reset the Kestrel, updated iOS to the latest then reinstalled Link Ballistics.


Nothing I do will bring up the update notification. How do I force it?
 
#278
wake.joe said:
My Elite is firmware 1.21. The app will not give me the option to update. I have reinstalled the app multiple times, factory reset the Kestrel, updated iOS to the latest then reinstalled Link Ballistics.


Nothing I do will bring up the update notification. How do I force it?
Click to expand...
Same for me. I prefer to not have to install the OSX app.
 
#284
Kestrel Ballistics said:
The update is a roll out process, there are lots of apps to change. Be patient.
Click to expand...
I declined an update from 1.21 a while back because I just wanted to quickly move a new profile over. The app hasn't "reminded" me that I have an update available since. Is it a once and forget it situation, and is there a way to force the app to compare versions again and return the update prompt?
 
#286
So there is no way to make it update? You are at the whim of the app? I have reconnected and reinstalled and factory reset what might as well be a hundred times.

Happy to be patient but it’s been almost a year since the next update was released. I’m not sure how much longer someone should wait? I am still back on 1.21. It’s never told me to update since then.
 
#287
wake.joe said:
So there is no way to make it update? You are at the whim of the app? I have reconnected and reinstalled and factory reset what might as well be a hundred times.

Happy to be patient but it’s been almost a year since the next update was released. I’m not sure how much longer someone should wait? I am still back on 1.21. It’s never told me to update since then.
Click to expand...

That's one of the reasons for the app update. The new firmware is more easily deployed.

In addition to the latest firmware 1.27 release, we have also made improvements to the Kestrel LiNK Ballistics app that will prompt users to perform an update.
Click to expand...

I am eagerly awaiting the iphone app update.
 
#288
wake.joe said:
So there is no way to make it update? You are at the whim of the app? I have reconnected and reinstalled and factory reset what might as well be a hundred times.

Happy to be patient but it’s been almost a year since the next update was released. I’m not sure how much longer someone should wait? I am still back on 1.21. It’s never told me to update since then.
Click to expand...

With the latest version of the app (iOS 193, Android 199), the 1.27 firmware is loaded with the application. Therefore as long as you have the new application version, you can go to Airplane mode (i.e., make sure Wifi/Cellular are off) but have Bluetooth on and connect to the app. This will force the application not to look at the server for the file but used the one included. This should help with a prompt.

The other issue sometimes is with caching issues, especially with iOS where deleting the app isn't removing the cached data. In this case you can connect to the Kestrel LiNK program (not Ballistics), change the name of your Kestrel, disconnect and close out the app. Then reconnect to the Kestrel LiNK Ballistics app.

If you are still having issues, please email us the details at [email protected]
 
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#291
Hopefully someone here can help me.
Since the iOS update 193 I have had a non functioning app. I updated to 195 and reset my iPhone a few times with no change.
I would prefer not to delete and reload the App in fear of losing my data. The gun profiles on my Kestrel are not as complete as the ones on my app which I recently modified.
The home button shows only Device Selection and if I choose that it won't link to my device.
I can access the settings gear shows Preferences only.
Software Version: Build 195
Kestrel FW 1.25
Has anyone else experienced this problem? Any other ideas?
Thanks
 
Last edited:
#292
My only two thought are:
Is the Kestrel in PC/Mobile bluetooth mode? (Setting, Bluetooth (Enter) Connection: Left or right to change, enter to accept.
Make sure you don't have any other apps launched that could grab the bluetooth signal and attach to the Kestrel (Strelock, The weather based Kestrel app, etc).
 
#293
Got it! Thanks to chrismartin who saved my bacon (data)!

Despite rebooting the phone, trying airplane mode, turning off cellular and restarting the bluetooth multiple times no success.
Found the bluetooth was stuck in a loop trying to connect to what I think is my truck! Once I terminated all the bluetooth activity the Kestrel app came to life and worked normally asking to update the FW. All my saved data is back! Whew!

FW: 1.27
SW: 195

:D
 
#295
Rangemaster said:
Mine still will not update.
Click to expand...
With the latest version of the app (iOS 193, Android 199), the 1.27 firmware is loaded with the application. Therefore as long as you have the new application version, you can go to Airplane mode (i.e., make sure Wifi/Cellular are off) but have Bluetooth on and connect to the app. This will force the application not to look at the server for the file but used the one included. This should help with a prompt.

The other issue sometimes is with caching issues, especially with iOS where deleting the app isn't removing the cached data. In this case you can connect to the Kestrel LiNK program (not Ballistics), change the name of your Kestrel, disconnect and close out the app. Then reconnect to the Kestrel LiNK Ballistics app.

If you are still having issues, please email us the details at [email protected]
 
#298
Kestrel Ballistics said:
With the latest version of the app (iOS 193, Android 199), the 1.27 firmware is loaded with the application. Therefore as long as you have the new application version, you can go to Airplane mode (i.e., make sure Wifi/Cellular are off) but have Bluetooth on and connect to the app. This will force the application not to look at the server for the file but used the one included. This should help with a prompt.

The other issue sometimes is with caching issues, especially with iOS where deleting the app isn't removing the cached data. In this case you can connect to the Kestrel LiNK program (not Ballistics), change the name of your Kestrel, disconnect and close out the app. Then reconnect to the Kestrel LiNK Ballistics app.

If you are still having issues, please email us the details at [email protected]
Click to expand...

Problem solved, I used my andriod tablet yesterday. It updated as soon as it connected. IOS is a little bit behind on updates. Anyways, the update took a full 30 minites to do, so make sure you have good batteries.
Thanks Guys
 
#299
I just picked up at 5700 elite, spent a bit of time playing with it, as well as reading through this whole thread. Are the custom drag models pre loaded onto the device? If so, where can I find them? I noticed people saying to turn off spin drift, aerodynamic jump, set latitude to zero so there is no Coriolis... Are these messing with accuracy at ranges that these don't matter? After playing with mine a bit, I don't see where I'm able to turn them off at all, but at the same time, why put them into the equation if they are going to negatively affect accuracy? Are people not getting their numbers to line up because their MV isn't calibrated, rather than those factors throwing off their POI?
 
#300
I am new to this so hopefully I don't miss anything, others will jump in and correct.

I use 6.5CM Hornady 140g ELDM, when you create the gun you choose the ammunition and if you select 0.264 and then Hornady 140g you should be presented with the option of G1, G7, or CC. I selected CC. I then set "bore Height" zero range(needs to be very accurate, don't trust signs at the range) and muzzle velocity (either box or chrono)

To disable "spin drift" it is not in the app(at least I couldn't find it) but in the gun profile on the device at the bottom of the settings, and my understanding is to disable Coriolis you need set the direction of fire to "zero", to disable "aerodynamic jump" I believe you need to disable wind one value.

I then went and zero'ed the rifle and got very close and reset zero stops. If there is any remaining zero offset because you can't dial it our in your optics you can add the offsets into the rifle profile.

I then went to a very accurate and known distance in the 500-600 yard range using the kestrel recommended dope, 550 yards and 3.2 mils, then either on paper or very accurate steel group measurements adjust your dope to center on your POA/POI for that range. If your dope is different, adjust your MV to get them to align. My trued MV for this gun is 2735.

Once I did this I was able to use the Kestrel at ranges from 1000 yards and in, on multiple lots of factory Hornady 140g ELDM, in multiple locations, in varying weather.

I did not do any truing of the DSF, as a interesting but not too scientific data point, this past weekend I shot it at targets out to 1900 yards.

1900 yards the kestrel called for 26.5 mils of elevation(my ZCO topped out at 22 and I held 5.5), I got one shot on steel out of 12 in wind that was varying form 5-7 mils. Multiple people on glass helping walk in the "rain of lead" approach to get that hit.

Same day also very effective on 1300 and 1000 yard targets with elevation, but fighting the wind variations.
 
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