KGM R6... False advertising?

[jzerfoss]

I got my KGM R6 paperwork back today and was able to bring it home. I weigh all of my suppressors new so I can track carbon build up. The R6 is advertised at 7.9oz with the direct thread mount. Mine weighed over 10oz.

Anyone else seen this? I called KGM and spoke to Beau and he literally said he doesn't know, doesn't have an answer as to why it would be over 2oz heavier, and offered no solutions. A few tenths of an ounce or even .5 oz might seem reasonable but if this is common over 2 oz seems like blatant false advertising for a suppressor that's titanium.

 

[Kadams1563]

Does it look brand new on the inside?

 

[jzerfoss]

Does it look brand new on the inside?

Yup, not a shot through it. The shop that had it doesn't have a range anyway

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I have an R6 in jail

 

[Skunkworx]

What’s it weigh sans mount?

 

[jzerfoss]

What’s it weigh sans mount?

I'll weigh it when I get home from work.

 

[dimar1492]

Two of my KGM cans weighed 2oz heavier than advertised out of the box. The RF22 was pretty close, however.

 

[loclass]

My R6 is 7.9 without a mount.

 

[jzerfoss]

Two of my KGM cans weighed 2oz heavier than advertised out of the box. The RF22 was pretty close, however.

I think their weight and length measurements are without the mount. Misleading or an honest mistake I don't know but the R6 has been around too long for them to be still advertising them that way.

 

[jzerfoss]

@Rade1MOA

 

[msgriff]

Weight can be a major criteria for many when they make a suppressor choice. 2oz isn't trivial at the end of a barrel.
I'm not trying to be insulting, but your mount looks like this?

 

[chevy_man]

They weigh all the cans without the mount. Get a titanium mount and you can reduce it.

 

[msgriff]

They weigh all the cans without the mount. Get a titanium mount and you can reduce it.

Their webpage states a weight of 7.9oz including the direct thread mount, as posted before. And the direct thread mount is titanium.

 

[chevy_man]

Their webpage states a weight of 7.9oz including the direct thread mount, as posted before. And the direct thread mount is titanium.

Their website sucks.

I bought some R30T's, they came with heavy as hell steel muzzle brake adapters. I assumed they were using steel direct thread adapters also.

Knowing people in manufacturing, it most likely went like this:
Boss emails r&d employee with request for weights.
Employee emails weights of bare cans
Boss forwards weight to sales
Sales guy lists weights

And nowhere in the chain did anyone ever think the guy weighing them would do it without the attachment method.
The guy weighing them assumed they would ask for weight of cans and muzzle device or adapter if they wanted that. They only asked for can weights, not total system.




My buddy works for a large manufacturer of accessories. It's hilarious how much he can pick apart their website and advertising because the sales people can't even get stuff right when they're given the correct info. Or they will pull up a list from an r&d version 2 years behind the final product to print sales material from.

 

[just browsing]

Weight can be a major criteria for many when they make a suppressor choice. 2oz isn't trivial at the end of a barrel.

Please explain. I would like to know how 2oz is not trivial.

Is it the difference between being able to carry it and not?
Maybe your barrel harmonics will be thrown off and it won't shoot?!
Can't be NRL Hunter weight limit related with an R6.

I'm at a loss. Seriously I need to know.

 

[kthomas]

Please explain. I would like to know how 2oz is not trivial.

Is it the difference between being able to carry it and not?
Maybe your barrel harmonics will be thrown off and it won't shoot?!
Can't be NRL Hunter weight limit related with an R6.

I'm at a loss. Seriously I need to know.

I don't think I would ever notice +/- 2 ozs on my rifle.

I can get why the OP is a bit disappointed that the listed specifications of the product he purchased doesn't match what was actually received - but I don't see how 2 ozs has any real appreciable aspect on any performance metric.

KGM should fix that on their specification sheet, but there's nothing to be done for the OP. Best to let KGM know their shit is wrong so they can update their shit and to just move on.

 

[Cypress87]

I suck at math, what percentage is that, 20-25%? I’d say that’s a big deal.

If you bought through silencer shop I would use their satisfaction guarantee and give it back and buy something else.

 

[kthomas]

I suck at math, what percentage is that, 20-25%? I’d say that’s a big deal.

If you bought through silencer shop I would use their satisfaction guarantee and give it back and buy something else.

If you're willing to wait a year + for a replacement for the sake of 2 ozs...then by all means I guess.

 

[jzerfoss]

Well the false advertising isn't a website mistake. I've found multiple sources where they state the length and weight with the mount included...

 

[jzerfoss]

I'm more aggravated by the fact that this seems to be blatant false advertising. When cans in the same class are so close in specifications a few ounces and a little length can be a determining factor of choosing. Is 2 oz going to stop me from being able to use the can? No, but it wasn't supposed to be there and I may have considered or chosen a different can because of that difference. There's no way I'm the first guy to have brought this to their attention in the years that this can has been out.

 

[just browsing]

I suck at math, what percentage is that, 20-25%? I’d say that’s a big deal.

~2% of a 5lb rifle lol.

 

[kthomas]

I'm more aggravated by the fact that this seems to be blatant false advertising. When cans in the same class are so close in specifications a few ounces and a little length can be a determining factor of choosing. Is 2 oz going to stop me from being able to use the can? No, but it wasn't supposed to be there and I may have considered or chosen a different can because of that difference. There's no way I'm the first guy to have brought this to their attention in the years that this can has been out.

Yeah I can see how that's aggravating.

Lesson learned I guess, stay away from KGM in the future.

Probably one of the more annoying aspects of the suppressor industry - they are essentially a lifetime purchase. They are expensive, take forever to get and are highly regulated. So when you do finally get your can, you're essentially stuck with any imperfections or incorrect details like this. Lots of consumers get burned in this industry it seems - remember Leviathian? Or Crux - I paid ~$900 for a suppressor that I never received.

Unfortunately it can be a bit beware buyer, and I guess that's why it's important to inform each other on here about our experiences.

 

[FuhQ]

Unfortunately it can be a bit beware buyer, and I guess that's why it's important to inform each other on here about our experiences.

Yeah, until you introduce folks to new things, and because it’s “new and scary” and the results are testing better than their current purchases, they constantly harass you for it, and declare it to be garbage, and you to be a shill. Until a recent well known unbiased 3rd party test proves everything you’ve been saying this whole time. Then, suddenly they are all interested in them and praising them.

 

[_Windrider_]

Well the false advertising isn't a website mistake. I've found multiple sources where they state the length and weight with the mount included...
View attachment 8237099
View attachment 8237100

To be fair I don’t see anything that says 7.9 oz with direct thread mount. It says with direct thread option. No where does it imply that’s with the mount installed. It’s bad verbiage as it’s not clear but never uses the word mount.

This kind of language isn’t uncommon in advertising world.

 

[Cypress87]

If you're willing to wait a year + for a replacement for the sake of 2 ozs...then by all means I guess.

I’ve never weighed any of my 10 or so suppressors, but I do believe in “the customer is always right.”

 

[just browsing]

And 1.2 oz is 20% more than 1 oz...just looking at percentage doesnt really mean anything

For reference....2 oz is approximately 1/2 a roll of pennies.....

I don't care who you are, no one is going to notice the difference of 2 ounces on a rifle.

I see this in ultralight hiking all the time...people obsessing over the tiniest weight.... where people going to the extent of cutting toothbrushes in half to save a few grams......if someone sent me a piece of gear that was 2 oz heavier than advertised, I wouldnt sweat it...mainly because im not ocd enough to weigh everything.


Frankly, if 2 ounces is going to kill you, why run the suppressor at all? just take all that weight off.....foam earplugs weigh less than an entire suppressor after all.

Although if it's really a bother, you can always do 2 extra barbell curls at the gym and I think that'll cover it

Or run 1 less round in the mag, lol.

I can’t believe people are actually bent out of shape about this.

 

[Cypress87]

And 1.2 oz is 20% more than 1 oz...just looking at percentage doesnt really mean anything

For reference....2 oz is approximately 1/2 a roll of pennies.....

I don't care who you are, no one is going to notice the difference of 2 ounces on a rifle.

I see this in ultralight hiking all the time...people obsessing over the tiniest weight.... where people going to the extent of cutting toothbrushes in half to save a few grams......if someone sent me a piece of gear that was 2 oz heavier than advertised, I wouldnt sweat it...mainly because im not ocd enough to weigh everything.


Frankly, if 2 ounces is going to kill you, why run the suppressor at all? just take all that weight off.....foam earplugs weigh less than an entire suppressor after all.

Although if it's really a bother, you can always do 2 extra barbell curls at the gym and I think that'll cover it

Ok communist

 

[kthomas]

Yeah, until you introduce folks to new things, and because it’s “new and scary” and the results are testing better than their current purchases, they constantly harass you for it, and declare it to be garbage, and you to be a shill. Until a recent well known unbiased 3rd party test proves everything you’ve been saying this whole time. Then, suddenly they are all interested in them and praising them.

dB ratings are only one small part of the whole suppressor story.

 

[kthomas]

I’ve never weighed any of my 10 or so suppressors, but I do believe in “the customer is always right.”

No doubt its KGM's fault for blatantly misleading specifications.

The route to address this situation is pretty complicated however, due to all the regs involving suppressors. It's not a simple matter of getting your money back with an immediate replacement following.

 

[just browsing]

Ok communist

… Commies would get bent out of shape about 2oz instead of realizing it’s completely inconsequential in application.

 

[FuhQ]

dB ratings are only one small part of the whole suppressor story.

I’m aware, but everything else proved me right, as well.

 

[kthomas]

I’m aware, but everything else proved me right, as well.

Well, in all fairness you used to push DA pretty heavily, so the track record isn't perfect

I don't have a perfect track record either mind you. There's been some great players that have emerged in the space of suppressors, and to your credit you've been an early advocate for some of them.

It takes time for people to establish trust in a suppressor company. Suppressors are a lifetime purchase that's heavily regulated. Some have been bitten by Leviathian. Some by Crux. Some by countless other companies that once existed in the suppressor space. dB ratings are one (small) piece of the pie. And issues in a suppressor company aren't readily apparent right away. Just look at DA and the whole host of issues they are currently having - and they are an established name in the space.

What are the underlying principles of their business? Is their going to be longevity to the business? What is their QA/QC like? Customer service? How tight are their tolerances - what's the runout of the can? Are they using good manufacturing practices and materials?

There's all sorts of aspects to suppressors that are much more important than just a dB rating, and not found on a list anywhere. It's why people here place so much trust in TBAC - they've got a track record that no other precision rifle suppressor manufacturer can match. It's a gamble to go with other names in the industry - that's why people are slow to trust and generally want more information than just a mere dB rating.

 

[Cypress87]

… Commies would get bent out of shape about 2oz instead of realizing it’s completely inconsequential in application.

Naw they would just be happy for being given the opportunity to buy something and have it, which is what people are suggesting.

 

[FuhQ]

Well, in all fairness you used to push DA pretty heavily, so the track record isn't perfect

I don't have a perfect track record either mind you. There's been some great players that have emerged in the space of suppressors, and to your credit you've been an early advocate for some of them.

It takes time for people to establish trust in a suppressor company. Suppressors are a lifetime purchase that's heavily regulated. Some have been bitten by Leviathian. Some by Crux. Some by countless other companies that once existed in the suppressor space. dB ratings are one (small) piece of the pie. And issues in a suppressor company aren't readily apparent right away. Just look at DA and the whole host of issues they are currently having - and they are an established name in the space.

What are the underlying principles of their business? Is their going to be longevity to the business? What is their QA/QC like? Customer service? How tight are their tolerances - what's the runout of the can? Are they using good manufacturing practices and materials?

There's all sorts of aspects to suppressors that are much more important than just a dB rating, and not found on a list anywhere. It's why people here place so much trust in TBAC - they've got a track record that no other precision rifle suppressor manufacturer can match. It's a gamble to go with other names in the industry - that's why people are slow to trust and generally want more information than just a mere dB rating.

In my defense, I would still be pushing DA products as well as OCL and TBAC. However, my recommending them is in a current hiatus until they get their QC/warranty issues under control. I don’t dislike them, or their products, I just don’t feel comfortable recommending them to someone else with a good conscience, until I know shit is back under control.

KGM did/is screwing DA and their customers pretty bad. Shows what kind of company KGM is…And I won’t support that type of behavior. There’s no need to act immature like that, when they’re is plenty of market space available now that cans are pretty much mainstream. Plus, they’re happy with their bootlicker contract anyway, and aren’t selling private sector right now. So there’s no need to be shitty about something you’re not even competing against.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Good thing KGM went to OEM and Contract sales only. Dealing with the public and dumb complaints like this make the decision all that much better.

 

[Cypress87]

The $8 one pound hamburger actually turns out to cost $10 and weighs 3/4 pound, and is 20% human meat...but it looks and tastes like a burger so you should just be happy you got it, ok? Haha

 

[jzerfoss]

To be fair I don’t see anything that says 7.9 oz with direct thread mount. It says with direct thread option. No where does it imply that’s with the mount installed. It’s bad verbiage as it’s not clear but never uses the word mount.

This kind of language isn’t uncommon in advertising world.

It clearly says "with direct thread"..... You can only direct thread with a direct thread mount which is what it comes with. Not really debatable what they were saying.

 

[Cypress87]

No one over payed for their suppressor.....and it's made out of titanium like they asked for.

As for your 1/4 pounder......they don't actually weigh a 1/4 pound lol

You should sue for false advertising

Also, before you find out....2x4s aren't actually 2x4


Seriously, this all amounts to a Karen looking for problems that don't exist, then bitching when they find problems that don't exist.

Oh so now details matter? Haha, ok
I’m not the OP, but I do believe the customer is always right, and they clearly falsely advertised the weight.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

KGM did/is screwing DA and their customers pretty bad.

What is this about?

 

[msgriff]

Please explain. I would like to know how 2oz is not trivial.

Is it the difference between being able to carry it and not?
Maybe your barrel harmonics will be thrown off and it won't shoot?!
Can't be NRL Hunter weight limit related with an R6.

I'm at a loss. Seriously I need to know.

You obviously believe that 2oz is inconsequential, so I will ask you a couple questions:
1. What weight discrepancy between a spec sheet and actual would you consider as being relevant for a lightweight suppressor? 6oz , 10oz , 16oz , or other. Be specific.
2. What additional muzzle weight would you consider as affecting use or performance? Be specific.

Any weight added to a barrel, particularly at the muzzle, affects harmonics. Suppressors won't work as tuners. if that's your question.

You don't seriously want to know shit, just stir it up.

 

[Cypress87]

Some details genuinely don't matter.....correct.

And just what do you think " the customer is always right" means?

It means it doesn’t matter if 98% of people are ok with being lied to because it’s “trivial,” if the OP is unhappy about being lied to, they should make him happy. But hey, free market capitalism died a long time ago, I’m just old fashioned I guess

 

[_Windrider_]

It clearly says "with direct thread"..... You can only direct thread with a direct thread mount which is what it comes with. Not really debatable what they were saying.

But there are 1 million proprietary direct thread adapters out there that they don’t control the weight of and I’m not defending them. I’m just saying it doesn’t specifically say including mount. It just says direct thread option, so if you take it from that account, they’re not deceiving or lying about anything as somebody else already stated that there’s way exactly what it says it does, in that print out schematic, and in the advertisement above it.

This kind of vague advertising and manipulating of numbers to make it seem like it’s something is not as very common in advertising and it’s why it’s up to the consumer the end user to do a little bit of research to determine what is and what isn’t exactly exactly what they’re trying to say

 

[kthomas]

What is this about?

That's a separate issue.

Dead Air contracts out their manufacturing to KGM (and to another company as well I believe). DA has recently had a lot of issues with certain suppressor models of theirs. Because KGM is the manufacturer, there's difficulties in getting adequate CS and resolution for the customers as a third party (KGM) is involved and the customer has no communication with. Because Dead Air has made the decision to be reliant on another manufacturer, they are at the whims of that manufacturer when problems arise, and the customer is stuck in the middle.

That's the unfortunate nature if you decide to outsource your manufacturing - especially for a highly regulated product like suppressors. The CS aspect becomes more complicated and can turn into a potential shitshow, which is has for DA. Some allegations that have been made on here (which are unsubstantiated, mind you) are that KGM is doing this purposefully to DA - though I don't know what they have to gain from doing that. Companies will always have other interests and priorities that won't always be 100% aligned with yours - so the decision to outsource manufacturing has resulted in pretty predictable results for DA. Though I'm sure being put into this spot has created some tough feelings between DA and KGM.

Anyways, that's it in a nutshell. I want to emphasize the unsubstantiated part of some of the rumors - its not fair to throw out those allegations against KGM without any corroborating information. The allegations being made are all by a third party that doesn't have any professional association with either company. The business dealings between DA and KGM are between those two parties, and I'm personally not going to cast any judgement on such private dealings between two entities.

 

[jzerfoss]

.....which can would you have chosen instead?.....


Not "may have"......you're doing too much bitching for that.......which can would you have picked over those 2oz?

Ecco machine Ti, TBAC Ultra 5 gen 2, Sico Scythe-Ti, or one of the many other options in it's class. Again, is the extra .4" and 2 oz going to stop me from being able to use the suppressor? No not at all but when you have a choice between 2 or more similar titanium suppressors and one of the differences is length and weight the majority are going to pick the light can especially when buying a titanium can.

My main complaint is this is blatant dishonesty in order to try to be competitive in a market where length and weight matter. Are you so gullible to believe that a precision machine shop that deals in .001"+/- didn't notice a .4"/2oz error in their marketing specifications over 3 or more years.....

Listen guys if you don't mind being lied to then by all means ignore this thread. This thread is for people that simply want correct information/specifications.

 

[kthomas]

But there are 1 million proprietary direct thread adapters out there that they don’t control the weight of and I’m not defending them. I’m just saying it doesn’t specifically say including mount. It just says direct thread option, so if you take it from that account, they’re not deceiving or lying about anything as somebody else already stated that there’s way exactly what it says it does, in that print out schematic, and in the advertisement above it.

This kind of vague advertising and manipulating of numbers to make it seem like it’s something is not as very common in advertising and it’s why it’s up to the consumer the end user to do a little bit of research to determine what is and what isn’t exactly exactly what they’re trying to say

To @jzerfoss point, KGM does explicitly state that the suppressor weights 7.9 ozs with direct thread mount.

I'm assuming the suppressor comes with a DT mount?

 

[Cypress87]

......no.....that's not what it means at all...

It means the customer is always right in regards to what they want to buy....not what you think they want to buy....

As in, don't sell denim jackets if your customers want to buy leather jackets.

It has nothing to do with bending over to appease Karen's.


OP can either return the suppressor if he's not happy with it...or keep it and shut up about it.

But looking for issues you'd never notice, and using that to get free shit from the mfg or whatever the fuck he's expecting out of this is peak Karen.

“He can return it if he is not happy with it” is exactly what the customer is always right means. Who is asking for free shit?

 

[_Windrider_]

To @jzerfoss point, KGM does explicitly state that the suppressor weights 7.9 ozs with direct thread mount.

I'm assuming the suppressor comes with a DT mount?

It never says mount. It says with direct thread.

 

[jzerfoss]

But there are 1 million proprietary direct thread adapters out there that they don’t control the weight of and I’m not defending them. I’m just saying it doesn’t specifically say including mount. It just says direct thread option, so if you take it from that account, they’re not deceiving or lying about anything as somebody else already stated that there’s way exactly what it says it does, in that print out schematic, and in the advertisement above it.

This kind of vague advertising and manipulating of numbers to make it seem like it’s something is not as very common in advertising and it’s why it’s up to the consumer the end user to do a little bit of research to determine what is and what isn’t exactly exactly what they’re trying to say

It does NOT say "direct thread option" in any of the ads. It says "with direct thread" which is the included mount. It's clear unequivocally.

 

[_Windrider_]

It does NOT say "direct thread option" in any of the ads. It says "with direct thread" which is the included mount. It's clear unequivocally.

I disagree but I also understand where the discrepancy exists and why the buyer is frustrated. BUT, the assumption is the weight includes the mount. And it doesn’t.

 

[jzerfoss]

It never says mount. It says with direct thread.

Direct thread is the mount..... How hard is that to understand? Without direct thread there would be no mount. It would clearly say "Without Direct Thread" if they weren't including the mount.