You shot that at 1000yards?ok - 1st - this was more productive than I thought2nd - I am going to try to do this every range trip (at least 4 rounds during this ammo shortage).
6.5 CM - hunter 16lb rifle - NF NX8 4-32 (light for hunter class)
Impact action and barrel - 2750 rds (still tight groups)
Treated it like a match with generous time - steady movement between positions, but build a position and shoot, not going slow to find premium stability.
Learned - rushed my first two kneeling and standing shots - 1/2 second more patience to settle position and rifle vastly improved consistency - DUH. My problem in real matches too, lol.
Fun stuff - thanks for putting this out there!View attachment 7562130View attachment 7562131View attachment 7562136
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Kraft Data Driven Training: Try This
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Absolutely agree. This is a good drill but for best personal diagnosis separate targets are a must. I also have been doing drills on separate targets for awhile. It opened my eyes to alot of things.Here is why I said early on, this drill should morph for many shooters to include separate targets. With a single target, you lose essential data trends for many shooters.
So let me start by saying that I didn't perform the Kraft test as outlined. I did a similar drill I've been doing for years. Especially with the old 308s and my hunting magnums so I could see where and more importantly why I was getting offsets. Blaine Fields who brought us FFS, one of the early ultra-robust programs was my inspiration as years ago we where discussing the positional offset feature in his program. Truth be told, many of us used to load hard into the bipod, later push hard into the barricade, or strap up our tripods and when the bags came along, most of us saw a large offset between these heavily driven positions and the gun lightly loaded on a bag. Of course, no time later the calibers came down and the gun weights skyrocketed; so it became much easier to "balance" the load between bipod and the bag.
Here are 20 rounds of Berger Factory 6CM Ammo shot. Again, not exactly like the Kraft format, but same basic idea. I used 1 bag a schedium on top of an Able Table for support ( a bit less stable than a solid barricade position) for the non- prone shots.
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No way could I have seen the trends and mentioned above if I used a single target. I would not have known that I am getting a bit of vertical stringing kneeling from the lighter loaded rifle or a bit of right pushing (shooting left-handed) standing etc.
- 1st group 5 shots middle "shoot-n-see" the best prone I could using the schedium as a rear bag
- 2nd group 5 shots lower "shoot-n-see", kneeling on a bag/able table, top of tripod slow. You can see that just like the standing 1-2 shots pulled low, I have a low string, which probably has to do with trigger press (rushing).
- 3rd group 5 shots upper "shoot-n-see", Standing on a bag/able table, top of tripod slow. Because there were not too many shots on the target when I rush the trigger on the third shot, I knew it was bad. I could easily see the problem, more importantly, I can see the trend is to push slightly right.
- 4th Group 5 shots, like a dot drill -.1mil adjusted: The individual shots on the left side were fast prone, going as quickly as I felt I could as if I was on a stage.
Now here below is everything overlaid as if I shot them all (other than the dot drill) on the same POA.
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tape for reference
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My only point for posting is to get us to think about the value of using multiple targets on the same paper. If you can't shoot medium-sized groups maybe it should be multiple papers. Either way, breaking up your positions has a lot of value; that said you have to be honest with yourself and use the aggregate of all the groups like the single Kraft target to get an idea of what your total group size is.
Food for thought on round 2 of the Kraft project
I think the Kraft drill is perfect for the monthly "checkup". I took a break from shooting for a month or so and then shot a kraft cold. If you look back you will see my results.
I use a 22lr.
Oh I see, didn't even notice that. Yeah, APP was set for 1000 yds - not sure how that happened since I never touch the setting. I just saw the group size of 1.64 inches and go with 1.6MOA - didn't even note the parenthesis next to it. Thanks for the catch, fixed the app settings.
Still been hitting this hard when I go to the range for practice.
spun a new barrel on and took the opportunity breaking it in to fireform some brass and get some practice in.
Easily my best and most consistent groups ever.
All the random ones at the bottom are speed check, cleaning, and checking zero on another gun
spun a new barrel on and took the opportunity breaking it in to fireform some brass and get some practice in.
Easily my best and most consistent groups ever.
All the random ones at the bottom are speed check, cleaning, and checking zero on another gun
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Well this is fun, even at 20f.
Everything being put out there for information is paying off for this guy. Broke down with both right side outliers, I couldn’t resist trying to will it into the group but shocked at the final results anyway. Did take my sweet time.
1st time trying the Kraft challenge
1st time using a gamechanger
1st time shooting positional, (been dry firing but normally prone or bench)
Step ladder, pint size gamechanger.
Everything being put out there for information is paying off for this guy. Broke down with both right side outliers, I couldn’t resist trying to will it into the group but shocked at the final results anyway. Did take my sweet time.
1st time trying the Kraft challenge
1st time using a gamechanger
1st time shooting positional, (been dry firing but normally prone or bench)
Step ladder, pint size gamechanger.
Have you found this to be true of most all systems? Or are we talking precision bolt guns mainly?
I have a couple rifles I have only ever shot from the tripod, and just started visiting the idea of seeing what changes...
Now my HEAVY bolt gun from prone to tripod I really saw minimal difference, but when I took a pencil barrel ar-15 with a thermal I had been shooting from the tripod only and jumped into prone yesterday I saw a SUBSTANTIAL vertical difference at 300. I ASSUMED this was due to the barrel nut / handguard / barrel interface possibly affecting things differently on tripod vs prone on bipod...
Perhaps I am really getting my ass handed to me when switching positions with the lighter rifle though and I need a serious evaluation of my methods
You mean downsizing the target?
I think if you print it at whatever % of 100 yards your are working with it's what you are looking for
Print at 5% for 5 yards as an example
@ChrisWay
I have shot the baseline and stress. The baseline put all shots within the 1 with some shots just breaking the line into the 2. But my KSN is 3.0 when i upload the result to the riflekraft page.
I was expecting my KSN to be 2.1-2.2?
For the stress all shots where in the 3 so my expectation was something like 3.3-3.5 but the page says 4.1?
I have shot the baseline and stress. The baseline put all shots within the 1 with some shots just breaking the line into the 2. But my KSN is 3.0 when i upload the result to the riflekraft page.
I was expecting my KSN to be 2.1-2.2?
For the stress all shots where in the 3 so my expectation was something like 3.3-3.5 but the page says 4.1?
I was curious about this too. I think I know the reasoning, interpolating based on the podcast discussion, but I’m interested to hear the real answer. Also, the website, on the target info line, gives me two “Kraft Numbers”. The first pretty much matches the baseline Kraft number but what is the second?
Shooting this drill and reading thread has taught me or reinforced the following:
For context 55+yrs old, top shooter at local matches, mid pac at regional matches, bottom third at national matches. Took up precision shooting to improve marksmanship for hunting after wounding a deer and having to track it for two days before putting it done.... Ive taken several classes including Franks. I dont compete to place well, its a great way to test drive skills from training.
#chrisway thanks for sharing this.
Pics is from earlier in thread. Ill upload some targets this week.
- When shooting 2moa diamonds if your wind call is off your elevation better be spot on.
- Its tempting to shoot until you get a good group and stop. It takes disapline to shoot until failure and then figure out why, and fix it.
- Practice does not = improvement unless its quality practice. This drill reveals flaws in fundemetals and/or position building.
- This drill reinforces the adage ... Aim small = Miss small. It can help build the displine to 100% focus on each shot.
- THIS is a big take away for me: Calculating the size of a group in moa is misleading. Looking at the Ballistic x overlay of this target would lead you to believe that the shooter & rifle are a 2 MOA system and capable of hitting 2 moa targets. If this were a 2 MOA diamond, 4 would be solid hits, 2 might catch edge of plate, 6 shots would miss. The reality is using Chris's thought process this is a 4 MOA shooter-rifle system.
- Accounting for positional offset from my prone zero makes sense to me. I view my rifle. bag and tripod as a field deployable system to solve problems. I want to grab the gun and go as its set up. given time and opportunity this extends my range with simple dope card and range finder from improvised positions.
For context 55+yrs old, top shooter at local matches, mid pac at regional matches, bottom third at national matches. Took up precision shooting to improve marksmanship for hunting after wounding a deer and having to track it for two days before putting it done.... Ive taken several classes including Franks. I dont compete to place well, its a great way to test drive skills from training.
#chrisway thanks for sharing this.
Pics is from earlier in thread. Ill upload some targets this week.
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Lotta good targets shown....then here’s mine - first run at it.
.223rem, 97 yards, 67* F, 47%RH.
.223rem, 97 yards, 67* F, 47%RH.
I really like the methodology and am going to use this. I was going through these numbers, and maybe you already caught this, but you don't have any "7's" in your little boxes.
Lol ya I doubled up on the "8's"
That Idea was scrapped for the long range data collection as it was to clumsy and I went for something else but I still use it for close range dot drills.
I then enter into a spreadsheet and create this. I have slicers setup so I can only pull a specific rifle or weather wind condition etc. Etc.
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1st try with 22lr trainer......Tikka tix 22lr stock barreled action, XLR chassis. Eley Contact ammo,
Seated, kneeling and standing shot from RRS with anvil.
50 yards target reduced 50% twitchy winds 3-7mph 10 o’clock to 2 o’clock light rain
100 yards 3-5 mph 2 o’clock heavy rain.
Lowest right impact is stray shot from guy two lanes over. Confused my white paper target for his shoot n see!
1st attempt with 22 trainer. Given that I have more 22 than match ammo this will provide great training insights on position building, NPA, and wobble zone management. Ill sprinkle in some 308 for recoil management training.
Seated, kneeling and standing shot from RRS with anvil.
50 yards target reduced 50% twitchy winds 3-7mph 10 o’clock to 2 o’clock light rain
100 yards 3-5 mph 2 o’clock heavy rain.
Lowest right impact is stray shot from guy two lanes over. Confused my white paper target for his shoot n see!
1st attempt with 22 trainer. Given that I have more 22 than match ammo this will provide great training insights on position building, NPA, and wobble zone management. Ill sprinkle in some 308 for recoil management training.
OK, so this makes more sense now. I listened to the Sniper's Hide podcast where Chris described this and one thing confused me. When I hear somebody refer to shooting from standing, kneeling, sitting and prone, I assume that the only support is from a sling. I'm not versed in the world of long range shooting so it wasn't until I watched the video in the first post that I realized bags, braces and rests are used in each of these. I've taken several scout and "practical" rifle classes which are centered around field positions so I was baffled as to how a person could shoot 1 MOA from standing. Now I get it. LOL
Thanks for this. I'll print out some targets and see how I can do the next time I'm out. I'm just starting a journey into long range shooting so this will be interesting.
Thanks for this. I'll print out some targets and see how I can do the next time I'm out. I'm just starting a journey into long range shooting so this will be interesting.
Go easy guys... I'm posting this but I am well aware of how bad it is. There is a LONG story behind this and I'm posting a separate topic to discuss and ask some questions.
The gun is a Steyr Scout in .308. Scope is a Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 1.5-5X and ammo is Lake City milsurp M80 Ball. Tripod is a Jim Shockey Primos Trigger Stick Gen 3. The Primos is about as unstable as you can imagine. I shot standing and kneeling using it but the sitting was done from cross legged and slung up in the Ching Sling.
All things considered, it was a good start and illustrated where I need improvement. I need a more stable platform for standing and kneeling before I can get too serious about it. I'll ask that in my other thread though.
The gun is a Steyr Scout in .308. Scope is a Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 1.5-5X and ammo is Lake City milsurp M80 Ball. Tripod is a Jim Shockey Primos Trigger Stick Gen 3. The Primos is about as unstable as you can imagine. I shot standing and kneeling using it but the sitting was done from cross legged and slung up in the Ching Sling.
All things considered, it was a good start and illustrated where I need improvement. I need a more stable platform for standing and kneeling before I can get too serious about it. I'll ask that in my other thread though.
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That's the point, where you start, and a good measure for improvement.
I'm a little late to the party, but here is my baseline. I did it twice because I set the tripod poorly the first attempt (too tall).
6.5 Creedmoor, Barnes 140gr Match Burners, 2,775 FPS
Impact / Proof / ACC
Schmedium Gamechanger
Standing - Tripod
Kneeling - Bench
Sitting - Stool
Prone - Asphalt
This is a great drill. Looking forward to working on it on the clock.
6.5 Creedmoor, Barnes 140gr Match Burners, 2,775 FPS
Impact / Proof / ACC
Schmedium Gamechanger
Standing - Tripod
Kneeling - Bench
Sitting - Stool
Prone - Asphalt
This is a great drill. Looking forward to working on it on the clock.
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Ran the drill twice today with my 6.5 creedmoor practice load. Haven't fully zeroed cause I forgot to reset the turrets from my long range load. I felt more stable off the walking sticks but apparently tripod was better. Wow I need practice if I could only find time lol
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I just shot the Kraft target as prescribed. One shot standing, one shot kneeling, one shot sitting, one shot prone, 3 times.
I had zero expectations going in, and I think I actually did pretty ok. I don’t use my tripod nearly as much as I thought I would yet, but I’m going to do this is as my warmup every range trip now.
I had my wife film the first set. About 3 minutes. Not ready for the 90 second par time yet. She confirmed zero for me as well, off the bench in the top left.
I don’t shoot comps or really even positionally, but it’s something I hope to get in to sooner than later. I think there’s a component of beginners luck, no expectations and therefore no pressure on myself, and having enough time behind this rifle to know when it feels right and when it feels wrong. Not trying to come across as overly proud of this target, but I think with 75% of the shots being inside 1 moa gives me something to aim for every time, or better. A benchmark of sorts.
I wish I had have taken a picture of the first 4 shots. There was no vertical and about 5/8” of horizontal. I was stoked on it. Not all 4 of the shots in the 2” diamond were standing. In fact, I believe only two were. I need more time setting up my tripod. Standing and kneeling I have a good height, but sitting it was slightly too tall.
I had zero expectations going in, and I think I actually did pretty ok. I don’t use my tripod nearly as much as I thought I would yet, but I’m going to do this is as my warmup every range trip now.
I had my wife film the first set. About 3 minutes. Not ready for the 90 second par time yet. She confirmed zero for me as well, off the bench in the top left.
I don’t shoot comps or really even positionally, but it’s something I hope to get in to sooner than later. I think there’s a component of beginners luck, no expectations and therefore no pressure on myself, and having enough time behind this rifle to know when it feels right and when it feels wrong. Not trying to come across as overly proud of this target, but I think with 75% of the shots being inside 1 moa gives me something to aim for every time, or better. A benchmark of sorts.
I wish I had have taken a picture of the first 4 shots. There was no vertical and about 5/8” of horizontal. I was stoked on it. Not all 4 of the shots in the 2” diamond were standing. In fact, I believe only two were. I need more time setting up my tripod. Standing and kneeling I have a good height, but sitting it was slightly too tall.
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Just tried my hand at it today. I hike into this shooting spot so had to improvise the kneeling and sitting rests (log, rocks). Humbling for sure but I know I’ll enjoy having a metric to measure improvement.
Good shooting and really dig the paint job
I definitely could. Just wanted to run through it quickly transitioning.
So this is my third or fourth crack at this. Was working out to be my best attempt yet but then the last set just totally went sideways for me. Definitely having the most trouble vertically. Can't seem to steady up my wobble zone. This was off my tripod using a bag for standing down to sitting. Prone off bipod and rear bag. I feel locking onto my arca would provide better results but in the spirit of the assessment, I tried to keep as "in the field under time" as possible.
Also shot this from the prone after.
Also shot this from the prone after.
Shot it twice today with tikka ctr in krg xray.
Top one is off primos pole cat tripod with pint size get lite game changer over the top.
Bottom one I tipped over and turned benches at the range to approximate my heights, wasn’t perfect but it was sturdier than the pole cat.
Pic is 90 deg off from how they were hanging, my writing on them is right side up for how they were.
Top one is off primos pole cat tripod with pint size get lite game changer over the top.
Bottom one I tipped over and turned benches at the range to approximate my heights, wasn’t perfect but it was sturdier than the pole cat.
Pic is 90 deg off from how they were hanging, my writing on them is right side up for how they were.
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It was all going so WELL!… …until the second and third kneeling and third sitting.
Oh well. What I learned was where to practice more. I struggled to get my wobble down on those shots.
First four.
Full twelve.
And quick vid for the lulz/constructive criticism.
Oh well. What I learned was where to practice more. I struggled to get my wobble down on those shots.
First four.
Full twelve.
Couple quick things I saw:
-When standing, lock your knees out. Control your elevation by splaying (or bringing closer together) your legs
-When kneeling, being that you're choosing the height of your tripod, I'd set it up so that you can plant your firing side foot flat and be able to support your firing side elbow on your knee with your leg bent at about 90 degrees (vs the lower, deeper kneeling you're using)[/MEDIA]
So changed up my tripod adjustments and also bought myself a pint sized Game Changer. Still having some trouble getting comfortable with crouch. My body just doesn't seem to like the position at all. That's where the one high shot came from. Assuming it wasn't a total fluke, it's definitely a major improvement over my previous attempts.
Everything in positional looked fine. Slight bend in knees is fine. As long as your bones are doing the support and not your muscles.
Prone, check out Velayo’s video on “building the bridge”. That’ll square away very small issue with prone.
And, we don’t always control height of barricades. So, I wouldn’t adjust it to make it easier all the time with knee support.
The goal is to put all 12 shots inside the 1” diamond. That’s my goal anyway. Consistently.
Whatever you want to work on. If wanting to work on locked in, go for it.
Also, I personally think it’s easier to shoot off a bag. Running a tripod locked in and shooting small is a skill of its own.
