Ladder Test, real or Imagined

[Lynn Jr]

Ok the you are only saving powder charge rounds. Thank you that’s what I was wondering and wanting to know.

How many yards should the ladder test be done at, I have read at least 300, is that enough or would you want to go farther.

If depends on the cartridge and bullet used but 300 yards for this website works. If you look at Divers target a gun using a 0.500 BC bullet at 2800+ FPS will simply stack a 10 round ladder test into 1/2-3/4 of an inch. This makes picking the node tougher and increasing the distance spreads it out for easier clarification. Naturally a 2500 FPS bullet with a 0.225 BC number requires less distance and a 1.04 BC bullet at 3400 FPS requires more.
I hold matches starting at 2000 yards and for those guns 500-800 yards works best.

Snookey did you lose your job on the jersey shore? Your mother is calling better get home before you get a whipping!!!

 

[Jammer Six]

Wow.

 

[RNWRKNP]

When I came here to learn man I had no idea......that there Lynn Jr is special?? The difference between @Diver160651 and @Lynn Jr is that Diver actually has some class where as Lynn is just a pathetic legend in his own mind. Gotta give Lynn credit though, that was some serious high grade self centered bullshit of the highest order???? Maybe your mamma will still think your special but good luck here on the hide???????

 

[Lynn Jr]

Yeah I am real worried about what hide members think just like most of the Benchrest National Champions.
Lolroflmao
Now let me guess you can't do a ladder test either!!!!!!

 

[RNWRKNP]

Yeah I am real worried about what hide members think just like most of the Benchrest National Champions.
Lolroflmao
Now let me guess you can't do a ladder test either!!!!!!

If you weren’t worried you wouldn’t have responded sunshine? This stopped being about loading methods a few pages back but no worries pork chop, I’m just gonna sit back and be impressed by someone that continues to dig a hole when he shoulda put the shovel down?

 

[fxdrider]

I can picture Frank laughing his ass off over this exchange. The OP will likely never want to ask a question again....

 

[Milo 2.5]

I can picture Frank laughing his ass off over this exchange. The OP will likely never want to ask a question again....

The Reloading Pit got rough. Only people who do not know how to do a ladder will laugh, for it is serious stuff. lol

 

[Lynn Jr]

If you weren’t worried you wouldn’t have responded sunshine? This stopped being about loading methods a few pages back but no worries pork chop, I’m just gonna sit back and be impressed by someone that continues to dig a hole when he shoulda put the shovel down?

Yeah I'm shaking in my boots that a select few sniper wannabes who CANT do a simple Ladder Test without Buffing shots think. Your stupidity is showing ladies.
Let me guess you girls next move. Let's get Frank over here to do our battle because we are unarmed trolls who can't do a ladder test.
The word is Pathetic.
And the original poster has been notified of what to do and thankfully not by you guys.

 

[_Raining]

I don't know who this Lynn guy is but an accomplished F Class shooter by the name of Erik Cortina made a post over on accurate shooter about load development at 100 yards:

You are being redirected...

It is almost as if people are different and each person has their own preferred method of load development even at the top of a discipline, shocking isn't it.

 

[Lynn Jr]

No it's not really shocking. Everyone has there own system that works for themselves.
What you are seeing here is guys who can't do something saying it can't be done.
If you tell them it works they cry in there cornflakes.
The smarter posters tend to send you a private message and ask why.
The sheep don't.
If you read what Erik wrote it exactly matches a ladder test. He finds the node which is what a ladder test actually does.
The worst method is finding maximum velocity dropping the charge weight and adjusting seating depth.
It works but only on select cartridges.

 

[_Raining]

I don't feel like going over the whole thread again but IIRC you mocked people for saying 1 round is not enough and Erik specifically says:

"I load 4 of each powder charge in 0.5 gr. increments and seat bullets at jam - .020". I use one shot of each to get barrel fouled up and also keep an eye for max pressure at the same time. " ... "Shoot 3 shot groups starting from lowest to highest. "

It is basically an OCW test except he specifies not to do it round robin style.

 

[cornhusker86]

This link may benefit some;

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/anxiety-files/201706/ten-steps-overcoming-need-approval

 

[Lynn Jr]

I don't feel like going over the whole thread again but IIRC you mocked people for saying 1 round is not enough and Erik specifically says:

"I load 4 of each powder charge in 0.5 gr. increments and seat bullets at jam - .020". I use one shot of each to get barrel fouled up and also keep an eye for max pressure at the same time. " ... "Shoot 3 shot groups starting from lowest to highest. "

It is basically an OCW test except he specifies not to do it round robin style.

You didn't read my post correctly but I have come to expect that here.
I said we agree on finding the node. He doesn't do a ladder test. He does an OCW which is a modified ladder test done three times round robin but he doesn't do it round robin style and he adds a fourth ladder.
He basically does 4 ladder tests instead of one.
Earlier I said the reason for doing a ladder is to use the fewest amount of rounds and I don't need 4 shots at each increment to do that.
You are saying things you can't back up because you are confused.

 

[_Raining]

You didn't read my post correctly but I have come to expect that here.

In post 42 you quoted Milo who said "I can biff shots at any moment, on any given day, a one shot per charge ladder test would be senseless for me to do. "

And your rebuttal was "Like I said if you and your gear are not up to the job there is always factory ammo.
Do you know how wide the node would be on a 6 BR? And would that be the same on a 300 Weatherby?"

So what the fuck did I not read correctly about that? He said 1 shot wasn't enough and you said he wasn't good enough of a shooter. So by that logic, you think Erik isn't "up to the job" since he recommends 3 shots per group.

Positive compensation is a function of harmonics and velocity. If the barrel is in up swing of its harmonics then you will get positive compensation. At 100 yards this would be lower powder charges having a higher POI compared to higher powder charges. The further you go out, the closer the POI will be between the lower and higher powder charges because the higher zero of the lower powder charges will be canceled out by their slower velocities. This will occur up to a distance where it is optimal and as you move further away from that you will see that the higher zero no longer cancels out the slower velocity fully and it will start to open up more.

OCW is a function of harmonics because at that close of a range, small MV changes do not translate into large variances in drop so POI shifts you see on target are almost entirely because of barrel harmonics. OCW and Erik say the node is consistent POI at 100 yards, which will give you a consistent zero.

So what don't I understand?

 

[Lynn Jr]

In post 42 you quoted Milo who said "I can biff shots at any moment, on any given day, a one shot per charge ladder test would be senseless for me to do. "

And your rebuttal was "Like I said if you and your gear are not up to the job there is always factory ammo.
Do you know how wide the node would be on a 6 BR? And would that be the same on a 300 Weatherby?"

So what the fuck did I not read correctly about that? He said 1 shot wasn't enough and you said he wasn't good enough of a shooter. So by that logic, you think Erik isn't "up to the job" since he recommends 3 shots per group.

Positive compensation is a function of harmonics and velocity. If the barrel is in up swing of its harmonics then you will get positive compensation. At 100 yards this would be lower powder charges having a higher POI compared to higher powder charges. The further you go out, the closer the POI will be between the lower and higher powder charges because the higher zero of the lower powder charges will be canceled out by their slower velocities. This will occur up to a distance where it is optimal and as you move further away from that you will see that the higher zero no longer cancels out the slower velocity fully and it will start to open up more.

OCW is a function of harmonics because at that close of a range, small MV changes do not translate into large variances in drop so POI shifts you see on target are almost entirely because of barrel harmonics. OCW and Erik say the node is consistent POI at 100 yards, which will give you a consistent zero.

So what don't I understand?

If your buffing shots your not up to the task at hand.
If your shooting a factory barrel capable of 3/4 moa your gear is not up to the task.
If your using a red dot sight or a 4X scope your gear is not up to par.
If your trigger pull is 5+ pounds your gear is not up to par.
If your Erik Corrina and your new barrel is done with the same reamer as your old barrel running 3 ladder tests is ridiculous.
He was trying to explain that by doing the test three times he is getting to see the width of the node because nodes do indeed have width and nobody here has posted that because they simply don't know.
It is perfectly fine to not know but when your trying to call someone out you should know shouldn't you?
Do a web search for tuners and barrel harmonics and read my posts or simply go back in this thread to post #77 and see what the well respected Lawrence Livermore National Labratory
engineer wrote about my record setting rifle in regards to harmonics. Are you smarter than Al Harrell?
Instead of all the completely stupid chest pounding try asking questions when you don't know and believe me you don't know and you might learn a thing or two about reloading for accuracy.
And tell me what you know about Dr Geoffrey Kolbe and Positive Compensation?

 

[Deleted member 113831]

@Lynn Jr

If I get you to teach me a proper ladder test... would you hold the target for me?

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Yeah I'm shaking in my boots that a select few sniper wannabes who CANT do a simple Ladder Test without Buffing shots think. Your stupidity is showing ladies.

There are a lot people on here who have actually made a living shooting people in the face at distances farther than your ladder test.

Fact.

 

[Threadcutter308]

This link may benefit some;

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/anxiety-files/201706/ten-steps-overcoming-need-approval

And then some others..........Not so much

 

[Milo 2.5]

What did I miss? I've been getting emails wrongful info is being passed out here on the hide.
I am now coaching and teaching by pm only.

 

[cornhusker86]

And then some others..........Not so much

At this point it's just sad.

 

[Lynn Jr]

@Lynn Jr

If I get you to teach me a proper ladder test... would you hold the target for me?

Snookums
I don't think you have the skill set necessary to reload good quality ammunition.

 

[Lynn Jr]

What did I miss? I've been getting emails wrongful info is being passed out here on the hide.
I am now coaching and teaching by pm only.

I am glad you took it offline as myths and bad intel helps no one.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I am glad you took it offline as myths and bad intel helps no one.

If you re-read, the only advice I passed out in this post was not to trust any testing to1 rd. I see you have not sobered up, still as much of a douche as you were 2 days ago.

 

[Lynn Jr]

If you re-read, the only advice I passed out in this post was not to trust any testing to1 rd. I see you have not sobered up, still as much of a douche as you were 2 days ago.

And tell us all how 1 biffed shot ruins a ladder test?
Oh wait give me a couple minutes to have a drink as I'm positive this is going to be good.
And we all know you've had two days to look up the answer on Google.

 

[RNWRKNP]

Yeah I'm shaking in my boots that a select few sniper wannabes who CANT do a simple Ladder Test without Buffing shots think. Your stupidity is showing ladies.
Let me guess you girls next move. Let's get Frank over here to do our battle because we are unarmed trolls who can't do a ladder test.
The word is Pathetic.
And the original poster has been notified of what to do and thankfully not by you guys.

Been awhile since I’ve seen someone that handy with a shovel??? Carry on ‘Legend’ cuz I’m enjoying the demonstration????

 

[Lynn Jr]

Been awhile since I’ve seen someone that handy with a shovel??? Carry on ‘Legend’ cuz I’m enjoying the demonstration????

I would rather you explained positive compensation or how to do a Ladder Test but we all know you can't do either.
I see several posters here jawing alot but none of them explained anything to the original poster.
You don't know what you don't know but you sure like jawing around here.
Bill Calfee knows about positive compensation maybe you can Google search him as well?

 

[Statusquo]

If your buffing shots your not up to the task at hand.
If your shooting a factory barrel capable of 3/4 moa your gear is not up to the task.
If your using a red dot sight or a 4X scope your gear is not up to par.
If your trigger pull is 5+ pounds your gear is not up to par.
If your Erik Corrina and your new barrel is done with the same reamer as your old barrel running 3 ladder tests is ridiculous.
He was trying to explain that by doing the test three times he is getting to see the width of the node because nodes do indeed have width and nobody here has posted that because they simply don't know.
It is perfectly fine to not know but when your trying to call someone out you should know shouldn't you?

You're

 

[Lynn Jr]

You're

I just talk the phone does the spelling.
But just for you. If you are gear is shooting 3/4 moa you are gear is not up to the task at hand.
Better?
My phone also thinks my scope has 40 minutes of can't.
You somehow seem smarter than the others here so let me ask you a serious question if I might.
Can you do a ladder test?

 

[Steel head]

Shoot this today.
Seems to be a nice flat spot at 2800ish which is a speed I like for the 147's.
I'll explore that area closer and se if I get a decent SD and accuracy.
I'm interested in if this method works for me.

 

[ChaseCO]

Ok, so since this thread is derailed as fuck I’ll try and make an effort to steer it in the right direction...which is probably futile at this point. Anyhow, before I start, you’re not going to get any qualification pics from me because I don’t have any. All I have are the results of doing a couple ladder tests for a 7mm Rem Mag using 168gr VLDs and Retumbo and 6.5 Creed using 107gr TMKs and H4350 this week, the results of which are sufficient for what I need. In the past I discovered that I couldn’t get a reliable load right off the bat with a 1 round per charge weight ladder, so now I load 2 and shoot it over the Magnetospeed. I literally didn’t even shoot at a target. Just into a berm. I look for velocity nodes (for new guys reading this for legit info, it’s where the muzzle velocity doesn’t change much but the charge weight does). I then pick the load in the middle of the node with the lowest extreme spread for the node and the lowest velocity difference (technically also an extreme spread...but since there’s only 2 shots it seems silly to call it that) between the 2 shots of the same load. For my 7mm it happened to be 69gr Retumbo. For the 6.5 Creed it happened to be 44.2gr H4350. I put that MV into my ballistic software and then load up 10-20 of whatever that load is to test and have some fun. I sight in at 100 (since my POI with the Magnetospeed is usually different than without it) and then dial for 300. I shoot off a bipod and rear bag. If the wind is bad I’ll shoot a 3 shot group here. If not, I’ll shoot 1 shot to make sure my windage setting is correct. If not, I adjust it so I’m center punching it. Then dial for 500 and shoot a 3 round group. I then true my muzzle velocity based on that data. Maybe I’ve just gotten lucky but it’s definitely worked for me. The pics below are of the ladder data for the 6.5 (didn’t take a pic of the 7RM data for some reason) and the first 3 shot groups I shot with each rifle at 500. Doing it this way has been way more efficient for me personally and I’ve been very pleased with the results. My hand is only in there for size reference later.

 

[ChaseCO]

I honestly have no idea what those loads look like at 100 but don’t really care considering how they look at 500.

 

[Lynn Jr]

If your load looks good at 500 it looks very good at 100.
Your not doing a ladder test if it involves velocity but when incrementally increasing powder it will look something like this
Shot 1 3000 FPS baseline
Shot 2 3025 FPS +25
Shot 3 3050 FPS +25
Shot 4 3070 FPS +20
Shot 5 3085 FPS +15 node
Shot 6 3115 FPS + 30
Shot 7 3180 FPS +65 non linear
Shot 8 3325 FPS +145 pressure

Don't worry about derailing this thread the OP is on the right track now and a 300 yard ladder test is in the works using one of my rifles and a lady shooter who has never fired a shot before.
It will be a video.

 

[Jammer Six]

I pity them.

 

[Ripdog28]

different strokes for different loads.

IMO, no single practice is best always. Some rifles show great flat spots in the ladder, mine happened to have an awesome ladder test. Doing the OCW test on the same gun, every load grouped great. Doing strictly OCW w/o a chrono would be deceptive as the ES/SD is what matters, not group size at 100 especially when far to many OCW loads were under 3/4".

But being in the game of precision, we all know that no data is bad data and you can never have too much in this pursuit.

 

[Lynn Jr]

Finally someone who has actually done a ladder test.
Typically you will see 5/8-3/4 inch of vertical at 100 yards for a 10 shot ladder test which is why everyone says to use 300 yards or more if you can.
It's not necessary but it spreads out the group so distinguishing the node is easier.

 

[Wormydog1724]

On a whim with my new 6.5CM I tried Satterlee's ladder test (I've always used OCW before). I did 1 shot at each charge weight (.2 steps) over a chrono looking for flat spots. I found one wide node with a really flat spot higher in my tests so I picked that. The groups were great.

Later I started getting heavy bolt lift and I ran it over a chrono and my velocity had increased 100fps. Nothing else changed except having about 300 more rounds down the barrel. I dropped my charge back 1.7 grains to my lowest original node and the heavy bolt lift subsided and the velocity is indeed 100fps faster than where I was initially. Seasoned barrel I suppose. The groups are acceptable but it's hard for me not to wonder what-if and start trying to chase another load.

 

[spife7980]

On a whim with my new 6.5CM I tried Satterlee's ladder test (I've always used OCW before). I did 1 shot at each charge weight (.2 steps) over a chrono looking for flat spots. I found one wide node with a really flat spot higher in my tests so I picked that. The groups were great.

Later I started getting heavy bolt lift and I ran it over a chrono and my velocity had increased 100fps. Nothing else changed except having about 300 more rounds down the barrel. I dropped my charge back 1.7 grains to my lowest original node and the heavy bolt lift subsided and the velocity is indeed 100fps faster than where I was initially. Seasoned barrel I suppose. The groups are acceptable but it's hard for me not to wonder what-if and start trying to chase another load.

A new barrel has machining marks and little pits and voids etc as well as bare sticky steel. Over the first 100 rounds those little imperfections are getting sanded down and filled. Good aftermarket barrels have it to a lesser extent but it is still there, crude factory barrels can be much more dramatic in their speed up. I will find an initial load in the first 20 rounds that doesn't suck horribly for the rest of the brass forming and break in but I do the real development after its settled into itself.