Lets start it again: 6.5 Grendel or 6.8?

[dakarhunter]

The arguement that the 6.8SPC has more parts available is an old moot point. Barrels, bolts and mags are widely available for both and thats the only parts that are different. Look at Maxim Firearms and Underground Tacitical two good shops that make bolts made of 9310 steel for both the Grendel and the 6.8SPC. Barrels are widely available for both as well so the idea that one has more "parts" avaialble is a silly arguement. The 6.8SPC does have more loaded bullets but that advantage is not going to last long. Before the end of 2014 we'll see loaded ammo from Nosler hit shelves for the Grendel as well as Wolf steel case hit shelves. Either rifles will make good choices just don't use faulty coolaid arguements for either. If your going to go with the Grendel avoid the SAAMI chamber if hunting is your application is my advice. Get a ARP 264 LBC, BHW 264 LBC or a Grendel II. If and when you handload you'll get much better velocity with hunting ammo properly loaded to those throats.

You can get a Grendel II or 264 LBC from the following businesses. I believe H is going to release his 264 LBC which is a good choice as well.

Underground Tactical
Midwayusa
Brownells (they recently chaged to the Grendel II)
Maxim Firearms
Satern barrels

You can get a 264 LBC from Black Hole Weaponary or Les Baers.

 

[Drifter™]

Looking for a target and hunting upper for the AR. Would like to keep it at 16" or 18". What are the pros/cons at this barrel length?

Edit: would be used on whitetail in the <250 yd range, antelope and other similar game to 350 or so.

For the OP's stated application, it really doesn't matter. Either cartridge will do the job.


As for much of the other information shared, I suggest that potential buyers do their homework very carefully. There is more than one hidden agenda strategically concealed within. Internet forums are usually a great source of information, but when it comes to these two particular cartridges (and aspects of each within their respective camps), be very mindful that information posted here and elsewhere on the 'net (often by the same people with different user names) is often inaccurate and misleading.

 

[DavidAR10]

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

Couldn't find 6.5G mentioned anywhere...

I luvzme both for very different reasons.

And as far as Bill Alexander goes... Marty ter Weeme and Tony Rumore have already said it better than I ever could.

458 SOCOM FTW.

 

[dakarhunter]

As for much of the other information shared, I suggest that potential buyers do their homework very carefully. There is more than one hidden agenda strategically concealed within. Internet forums are usually a great source of information, but when it comes to these two particular cartridges (and aspects of each within their respective camps), be very mindful that information posted here and elsewhere on the 'net (often by the same people with different user names) is often inaccurate and misleading.

Yes forums that allow competing agendas and different points of view are more interesting to read. If a forum censors others ideas it becomes boring and readership drops. Thats whats going on over at the Grendel forum. Anyone not keeping to the strict party line is censored, banned and posts are deleted. Forums that allow different points of view are far more interesting to read. If we wanted one point of view we'd read Pravda.

 

[fdkay]

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

Couldn't find 6.5G mentioned anywhere...

I luvzme both for very different reasons.

And as far as Bill Alexander goes... Marty ter Weeme and Tony Rumore have already said it better than I ever could.

458 SOCOM FTW.

Because the grendel does not function well on full auto.
The case design does not lend itself to belt feed either.
When you consider that the 6.8 is really pushing the rather small safety margin on the ar15/m16 bolt, the 6.5 is even worse as the case head is even larger in diameter than the 6.8.

 

[BravoSierra]

18" .264LBC ARP

I have no formal schooling, other than my Military service. Im no "OAF Shooter" and I consider myself a below average one, working on my fundamentals while I save up to take a long range class. I take this stick for my wife and I for both pig hunting and shooting to 600 yards. Better than my Mk12 setup for sure.



I posted this last month with the Black Hills load, which is a more consistent one than the Hornady by far. 600 Yards, and the rifle makes me look good. It also is showing me where Im bad, like squaring up and jerking the trigger. lol



Blackhills clocks at 2457 fps and a velocity differential of .238 per degree fahrenheit. The Hornady clocks slower at 2434 fps, but has a differential of 1.51 degree fahrenheit IIRC. Blackhills def using a more temperature insensitive blend. Hornady doesn't group well in my gun, but the Blackhills does well enough that Ill use it as a starting point when I go to handload. Should be able to get to 2500 fps safely enough and get lower es too.

 

[corym468]

Yes forums that allow competing agendas and different points of view are more interesting to read. If a forum censors others ideas it becomes boring and readership drops. Thats whats going on over at the Grendel forum. Anyone not keeping to the strict party line is censored, banned and posts are deleted. Forums that allow different points of view are far more interesting to read. If we wanted one point of view we'd read Pravda.

View attachment 42171

You were kicked off the forum for pushing potentially Catastrophically Hazardous advice.

A few posts back you mentioned getting 2800fps with a 120gr projectile in a Grendel case form a 24" barrel. You're approaching 260 velocity and you don't think your load is to hot???

I suspect you're in the 58ksi-60ksi range.

BEWARE of any advice from DAKARHUNTER!!!!

He lives in a fantasy world where he has actually convinced himself of his own bullshit. He's absolutely delusional.

 

[corym468]

Because the grendel does not function well on full auto.
The case design does not lend itself to belt feed either.
When you consider that the 6.8 is really pushing the rather small safety margin on the ar15/m16 bolt, the 6.5 is even worse as the case head is even larger in diameter than the 6.8.

Really and on what factual evidence is your bullshit based???

 

[DavidAR10]

Really and on what factual evidence is your bullshit based???

There's a guy... and his name is Roberts.

Give him a call and get back to us.

 

[Andy Warhog]

You were kicked off the forum for pushing potentially Catastrophically Hazardous advice.

A few posts back you mentioned getting 2800fps with a 120gr projectile in a Grendel case form a 24" barrel. You're approaching 260 velocity and you don't think your load is to hot???

I suspect you're in the 58ksi-60ksi range.

BEWARE of any advice from DAKARHUNTER!!!!

He lives in a fantasy world where he has actually convinced himself of his own bullshit. He's absolutely delusional.

Yeah man, I'm compressing to get 2540 fps out of a 26" with 123's and the primers are cratering a bit. Some poor retard is gonna read shit like that and believe it

 

[DavidAR10]

Because the grendel does not function well on full auto.
The case design does not lend itself to belt feed either.
When you consider that the 6.8 is really pushing the rather small safety margin on the ar15/m16 bolt, the 6.5 is even worse as the case head is even larger in diameter than the 6.8.

Roger That. I was one of the first to buy three SPC II barrels (2 - 16", 1 - 20") from Tim Hicks {God Bless him and his family} pushing a decade and a half ago.

I also kept up with everything I could find from Dr. Roberts.

BTW, FUUUUU Remington!!! for trying to kill the 6POINT8. Scrotumites.

 

[346ci]

I believe H is going to release his 264 LBC which is a good choice as well.

FYI, Harrison dropped the .264LBC or .264gARP as me and a few others called it, lol.

He is now building a "Six5", 6.5 bullet in a 6.8 case..

If I didn't have the 6.5 Creedmoor to sling 6.5 bullets, I'd look at the Six5 or a .264LBC barrel from BHW.

 

[dakarhunter]

You were kicked off the forum for pushing potentially Catastrophically Hazardous advice.

A few posts back you mentioned getting 2800fps with a 120gr projectile in a Grendel case form a 24" barrel. You're approaching 260 velocity and you don't think your load is to hot???

I suspect you're in the 58ksi-60ksi range.

BEWARE of any advice from DAKARHUNTER!!!!

He lives in a fantasy world where he has actually convinced himself of his own bullshit. He's absolutely delusional.

I was out shooting with one of the authors of the Grendel reloading manual doing gel testing and was getting pretty fast loads in my Liberty barrel he tried them in his rifles as well. I determined later that it was because the 120gr TTSX was jammed into the lands. That was a year ago and was booted off the forum a year later because the forum mods were conducting an organized attack on satern spreading FUD about competitors of Alexander Arms and i defended Satern. Other words just more lies from the cult. Anyone telling the truth about Grendel II's and 264 LBC's are kicked off the forum. We created Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) where we could have open honest conversations about all AR-15 calibers without all the hate and BS. That was a couple months ago and the forum is doing great. One of the positive things about the 6.8SPC over the Grendel is a healthier more mature community, While i prefer the 6.5 for its ballistics the 6.5 community is a cultish hot mess lead by Bill Alexander bath water drinkers.

 

[dakarhunter]

FYI, Harrison dropped the .264LBC or .264gARP as me and a few others called it, lol.

He is now building a "Six5", 6.5 bullet in a 6.8 case..

If I didn't have the 6.5 Creedmoor to sling 6.5 bullets, I'd look at the Six5 or a .264LBC barrel from BHW.

I think he's going to bring it back. best freebore length for OAL? - Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10)

 

[dakarhunter]

18" .264LBC ARP

I have no formal schooling, other than my Military service. Im no "OAF Shooter" and I consider myself a below average one, working on my fundamentals while I save up to take a long range class. I take this stick for my wife and I for both pig hunting and shooting to 600 yards. Better than my Mk12 setup for sure.



I posted this last month with the Black Hills load, which is a more consistent one than the Hornady by far. 600 Yards, and the rifle makes me look good. It also is showing me where Im bad, like squaring up and jerking the trigger. lol



Blackhills clocks at 2457 fps and a velocity differential of .238 per degree fahrenheit. The Hornady clocks slower at 2434 fps, but has a differential of 1.51 degree fahrenheit IIRC. Blackhills def using a more temperature insensitive blend. Hornady doesn't group well in my gun, but the Blackhills does well enough that Ill use it as a starting point when I go to handload. Should be able to get to 2500 fps safely enough and get lower es too.

With that 264 LBC you'll be able to do better than that actually. Use CFE223 or LEVER and load a 120gr Nosler out about .005 or so from the lands and work up a load. You'll find the 264 LBC is capable of safely pushing bullets 150fps faster than the SAAMI grendel. The commerical ammo is designed to fit in the SAAMI shorter throat. If you hand load you can load longer so the bullet is perfectly off the lands.

 

[BravoSierra]

With that 264 LBC you'll be able to do better than that actually. Use CFE223 or LEVER and load a 120gr Nosler out about .005 or so from the lands and work up a load. You'll find the 264 LBC is capable of safely pushing bullets 150fps faster than the SAAMI grendel. The commerical ammo is designed to fit in the SAAMI shorter throat. If you hand load you can load longer so the bullet is perfectly off the lands.

Ill turn the gas off and ladder test it. But it would great to realize the potential of this thing and get even 100fps better than the factory loads. Id be happy with just 50fps more and a tiny ES.

Ill add, i purchased the barrel from ARP at the height of the hysteria. He didn't gouge me, so the value is greater than the dollars i spent on it, considering the performance I'm starting to see now that I'm getting range time. I appreciate that greatly. Now that I'm loaded for 6.5 with mags and brass, including a .260 in large format AR, theres no real advantage for me to go 6-8. I wouldn't feel disadvantaged by it either from the current offerings and bullets available. That 6.8 necked down to 6.5 sure sounds interesting though..

 

[Name Enough]

I don't want to piss off the Cobracutter but the Jordanian and Saudi Army have purchased 40K LWRC Six8 rifles in 6.8 SPC. This rifle uses a Pmag magazine. I myself own an LWRC DMR 6.8 SPC and hand load for it. I am planning to replace the barrel with an ARP 18 inch Recon barrel as my experience with my 223 Wylde barrel from ARP has been outstanding.

 

[DavidAR10]

I don't want to piss off the Cobracutter but the Jordanian and Saudi Army have purchased 40K LWRC Six8 rifles in 6.8 SPC. This rifle uses a Pmag magazine. I myself own an LWRC DMR 6.8 SPC and hand load for it. I am planning to replace the barrel with an ARP 18 inch Recon barrel as my experience with my 223 Wylde barrel from ARP has been outstanding.

Go ahead and piss him off. It only takes an opinion or fact that differs from his train of thought.

Banty Roosters with rabies always behave like that. They are immature way past into adulthood, have psycho issues beyond pushing baby ducks into ponds on rainy days...

and I've killed better.

Sorry, Lowlight. I know this site to be held higher than ARFCOM by a country mile...

But I da-da-damn hate rabies mated to a Napoleon complex.

 

[dakarhunter]

Ill turn the gas off and ladder test it. But it would great to realize the potential of this thing and get even 100fps better than the factory loads. Id be happy with just 50fps more and a tiny ES.

Ill add, i purchased the barrel from ARP at the height of the hysteria. He didn't gouge me, so the value is greater than the dollars i spent on it, considering the performance I'm starting to see now that I'm getting range time. I appreciate that greatly. Now that I'm loaded for 6.5 with mags and brass, including a .260 in large format AR, theres no real advantage for me to go 6-8. I wouldn't feel disadvantaged by it either from the current offerings and bullets available. That 6.8 necked down to 6.5 sure sounds interesting though..

Ever notice on the Grendel forum that probably 95% of hunters use the 123gr SST? Its becasue it was designed for the Grendel SAAMI chamber and has a longer nose which does not require it to be shoved deep in the case like the rest of the 6.5mm Hunting bullets with a shorter nose cone. They can't get a usable velocity from the majority of hunting bullets so they don't use them. The 264 LBC and Grendel II changes that. If you hand load those bullets now come alive and are now usable. They keep refireing to mag length as 2.26in but its actually 2.3in. Some of the best bunting bullets have a max COAL in the .120 throat right over 2.3in. Which means you can load right off the lands with more case capacity and get velocities that would blow up the SAAMI smaller chamber. They are a cult so they will never admit the truth even if they see it first hand they will attack anyone on a personel level that shows the data.

 

[BravoSierra]

That is one of the reasons i chose the LBC so i could reload off the lands. We shall see. Im excited, because its a seriously lightweight rifle for the precision I'm getting. To be able to get additional ft/lbs on target or extend the usable range makes me gigle like a kid every time I squeeze the trigger.

 

[LRRPF52]

Yes forums that allow competing agendas and different points of view are more interesting to read. If a forum censors others ideas it becomes boring and readership drops. Thats whats going on over at the Grendel forum. Anyone not keeping to the strict party line is censored, banned and posts are deleted. Forums that allow different points of view are far more interesting to read. If we wanted one point of view we'd read Pravda.

View attachment 42171

I'll tell you what. Why don't you post that Lowlight deletes posts of yours that he never did, call him a liar, and see what happens to your account here.

I know in your head you really believe your delusions, but you really need to find another hobby. You being banned has nothing to do with any of the false claims you are making, and you really have to be a special kind of bad apple to get banned from the Grendel forum. Since you use a different screen name here trying to hide, that says enough for me. How many forums have you been banned from again by the way? By your own admission, before being banned from 6.5 Grendel, it was at least 3. That makes 4 totally different forums now. I would suggest you look in the mirror, but narcissism is immune to such things.

You really know nothing about this subject, and are feigning knowledge and experience that isn't there-doesn't exist.

If this hearsay you claim about the Grendel chamber design is true, I find it interesting that Woody himself didn't explain it that way when I spoke with him for over an hour at SHOT this year.

What I'm hearing from you is that 3rd-hand sources via PM and on the phone are more reliable. Maybe you should consider fact-checking information that comes from people with axes to grind before you accept it as the gospel truth.

If you believe that hunting bullets in 6.5mm are so handicapped by the SAAMI chamber, why are people having so much success with them, even more so than the 6.8 SPC? Kinda hard to explain that. Also, your idea that more OAL gives significantly more performance in terms of velocity isn't supported by reality, and even Arne stated the same. AR15 mag well length is the limiting factor, and most people only use about 15-25% of the Grendel's capability anyway.

 

[dakarhunter]

Lets start it again: 6.5 Grendel or 6.8?

Angry much? Over 3000fps from a 100gr nosler bt using 30.4gr of h335 is real as well as 2780fps from a 120gr nosler bt with 31.6gr of lever is real as well. That's the facts jack. The Grendel II is awesome best Bill Alexander design out there.

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[LRRPF52]

Ever notice on the Grendel forum that probably 95% of hunters use the 123gr SST? Its becasue it was designed for the Grendel SAAMI chamber and has a longer nose which does not require it to be shoved deep in the case like the rest of the 6.5mm Hunting bullets with a shorter nose cone. They can't get a usable velocity from the majority of hunting bullets so they don't use them. The 264 LBC and Grendel II changes that. If you hand load those bullets now come alive and are now usable. They keep refireing to mag length as 2.26in but its actually 2.3in. Some of the best bunting bullets have a max COAL in the .120 throat right over 2.3in. Which means you can load right off the lands with more case capacity and get velocities that would blow up the SAAMI smaller chamber. They are a cult so they will never admit the truth even if they see it first hand they will attack anyone on a personel level that shows the data.

The only "cult" on the Grendel Forum is treating people with respect, and making technical contributions. It's extremely rare that anyone is banned. You and Woohoo/Bustin/Constructor/Harrison are 2 of maybe 4 people in the entire forum's history, and H has been banned twice. This latest time was for openly stating that the only reason he posts there is to "smear buggers" and the "entertainment value", in addition to making personal threats out of the blue via PM.

He's a great machinist and barrel maker, but he flips out on you out of left field, with no explanation. Can't figure it out really, don't have time to.

 

[LRRPF52]

Angry much? Over 3000fps from a 100gr nosler bt using 30.4gr of h335 is real as well as 2780fps from a 120gr nosler bt with 31.6gr of lever is real as well. That's the facts jack. The Grendel II is awesome best Bill Alexander design out there.

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You dodged the fact that you were banned for claiming that mods were deleting your posts, then calling them liars when no evidence of such activity was produced. We've had lively discussions about different chamber designs for years before you showed up. The difference is that you handled a group buy that was a colossal abortion, then you went full retard and started calling mods and anyone else liars when they cautioned people from continuing to fire factory ammo through unsafe barrels. That's why you were banned. Nobody has done that before. Only a complete ignoramus or narcissist who refuses to accept an unsafe condition doubles down when primers are popping and piercing, bullets are getting pulled, and jamming into the lands. That kind of behavior shouldn't be tolerated on any forum. Instead of accepting reality, you chose to hang on even harder and continue to make these recommendations to forum members, many of whom are new to this.

By feigning expertise, you can come across as someone who is competent, which you are not. You are dangerous. Your first red flag was ignoring the advice of others to stop loading to the pressures you were, when you were getting .260 Remington velocities with a 120gr TSX. The group buy fiasco and meltdown were the nails in your account's coffin.

Go post unsafe load data here on the Hide, double down when you're called out on it, and see what happens. Will the Hide then be a cult? If the cult's mantra is safety, then guilty as charged.

Look at Hodgdon's reloading data for the Grendel with H-335 and the 100gr NBT with a 24" barrel. Max load they listed was 30.7gr of H-335 generating 2744fps.

You're now stating that you think a change in a chamber design is going to get you over 3000fps with .3gr less powder, with the same bullet. Again, numbers from you are way out from left field. Reloading is something you should refrain from.

The reason people don't mess around with the lighter pills that much is because many have seen the light about BC, rather than velocity. The 100gr NBT is notorious for coming apart on medium game at close range/higher speeds. If I had the choice between those two loads, even if I could get over 3000fps safely, I would choose something more in the 2650fps range with that bullet.

You're all over the place. You're jumping into statements about things that really require years of study and experience, not a trip to the range with 3rd groups, then head back to the house and make great proclamations about things you just started experimenting with. For those of us who have been doing this for most of our lives, it's painfully obvious.

You come across as a provocateur who enjoys poking people, only your information is faulty to the core. What name would you assign to all of the other variations of experimental chambers that Bill tested before finalizing the 6.5 Grendel? There were $11,000 in reamers, with many variations.

 

[dakarhunter]

I challenge you to show the post where I said Greg was a liar!!


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[LRRPF52]

I challenge you to show the post where I said Greg was a liar!!


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I wasn't even talking about that one. That's another issue entirely, where you're in the wrong again. Spinning a bolt in a barrel extension isn't always going to show jamming into the lands. You need an assembled AR15 with full inertia-generated bolt closure, which is also why the Hornady/Stoney Point gauge is less than ideal for determining COL in a gasser. I've seen your video response to that, and that is why you couldn't duplicate the condition.

I'm talking about calling mods liars, and accusing them of deleting your posts. The issue here isn't with the Grendel Forum, it's yours. There really isn't much more to say about it.

 

[LRRPF52]

Because the grendel does not function well on full auto.
The case design does not lend itself to belt feed either.
When you consider that the 6.8 is really pushing the rather small safety margin on the ar15/m16 bolt, the 6.5 is even worse as the case head is even larger in diameter than the 6.8.

The Grendel is regularly tested on full auto. The chamber design is the best of both worlds, namely plenty of neck space with the .300" neck, but with accuracy from the compound throat. The compound throat doesn't erode because the pressures are much lower, so you get better barrel life than .308 Winchester even.

7.62x39 RPD links already exist.

The 6.8 SPC II at its unsafe 58,850psi loadings has more bolt thrust than a Grendel. I've broken bolts on 5.56 in high volume, so the claims that 6.8's don't break bolts can only mean 3 things:

* They aren't being shot in enough volume to find the fatigue life for most customers.
* Breakages are being concealed or scrubbed.
* Higher standards of metallurgy are being used across the industry, even by DPMS, Stag, "Bushmaster", and the shops they get bolts from.

I'm a lot less concerned about shearing lugs, and more interested in seeing some sectioned 6.8 chambers at 1000rds, 2000rds, 3000rds, and 5000rds. CAG tested them before the SAAMI SNAFU (original AMU/Murray chamber) and determined the design was dangerous in high volume. They have the best engineers in the industry in house, some of whom came from aerospace inspection backgrounds with Boeing. We're not simply talking about operators torturing the guns on the range in high volume, then forming their opinions. It's quite possible that CAG did more engineering analysis from a professional and technical perspective than any 6.8 manufacturer out there.

With large barrel makers calling up AA and asking them what reamer spec to use for 6.8, you start to get an idea of the state of the industry when it comes to technical expertise at en engineering level. Even H/Bustin/Woohoo/Constructor/Yankidachain will tell you that the SPC II chamber design still has a mistake in the drawing. The 6.8 can get away with it since you can only really fit tangent ogive pills to a very limited COL, since the case is longer.

For hunting, I doubt most medium game will know the difference within 100yds, but we frequently see twofers with the Grendel, especially on hogs at the feeder.

The Grendel really is the better performer across the board. The 6.8 has no advantage over it within the hunting distances that many claim, and you don't need long barrels to take advantage of the Grendel's capabilities. A 16" Grendel will give you more velocity than most know what to do with. I need to get an angled scope base for mine now that I've seen what it will do at 1200-1500yds on steel. I just figured it was a good 700yd lightweight carbine, but I was off by at least 500yds up here in these altitudes (Rockies/Unintahs).

The other cool thing that I think interests many on the Hide is that the Grendel is the only gasser on the market outside of .223 Rem that has factory ammo for it meant to work in a gasser, when compared with 175gr SMK or 178gr A-MAX .308, .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6.5x47 Lapua. No primer piercing, popping, or extreme pressure issues with the gas system in an AR15.

 

[dakarhunter]

Lets start it again: 6.5 Grendel or 6.8?

The compound throat Is gone after about 600 rounds. It helps with a short throat and was chosen to improve accuracy with the scenar lapua rounds but reduces velocity of most spitzer shorter nosed hunting bullets which is why the 123gr SST is so popular. The Grendel II which is Bill Alexander's original design does much better over the wide variety of hunting bullets available for the 6.5.


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[dakarhunter]

View attachment 42241Paul which SAAMI SNAFU are you talking about the 6.8SPC SAAMI drawing that limited performance of the 6.8 pills necessitating the need for a 6.8SPC II design that corrected it the deficiency or the 6.5 Grendel SAAMI SNAFU that limited performance of 6.5mm pills necessitating the need for a 6.5 Grendel II design? Which one?

 

[dakarhunter]

That is one of the reasons i chose the LBC so i could reload off the lands. We shall see. Im excited, because its a seriously lightweight rifle for the precision I'm getting. To be able to get additional ft/lbs on target or extend the usable range makes me gigle like a kid every time I squeeze the trigger.

Which 264 LBC did you go with? I maybe wrong but i think a little of the extra velocity maybe snuffed by the BHW poly rifling. It builds presure slower and may take a little more powder to make it up. Its got excellant accuracy though. Paul here loves to claim the 264 LBC is only good at 123gr pills but we all know whom hes spreading that total BS for.

 

[Bwild97]

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

Couldn't find 6.5G mentioned anywhere...

I luvzme both for very different reasons.

And as far as Bill Alexander goes... Marty ter Weeme and Tony Rumore have already said it better than I ever could.

458 SOCOM FTW.

I found plenty of 6.5G references here, also more recent: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a566748.pdf

 

[dakarhunter]

Look at Hodgdon's reloading data for the Grendel with H-335 and the 100gr NBT with a 24" barrel. Max load they listed was 30.7gr of H-335 generating 2744fps.

The same load in my older 24in 6.5mm grendel Liberty barrel with 5R rifling was at 2875fps. Same load with the new 24in Grendel II with 5R rifling is a little over 3000fps. Only thing different in the two rifles is the Grendel II throat. Same exact bullets loaded to the same COAL. I was working up a load for the Grendel II using a longer COAL of 2.265 and was well above 3000fps and decided to try some older loads i brought along for my sons rifle loaded to 2.23in and sure enough above 3000fps. The answer to why is the freebore that didn't exist. Sorry you'll never see those velocitys with your SAAMI chamber but hey you can get good accuracy from 108/123 Scenar bullets so thats cool right lol.

 

[dakarhunter]

Here's a great post from sandwarrior that really describes the need for the Grendel II and why we are experiencing better velocities with certain bullets.The Grendel II adds that SAFER freebore an why it makes a better hunting option. If your just going to punch holes in paper or stick to a couple hunting rounds like the 123gr SST which was made specifically for the chamber and does rather well with it the Grendel SAAMI is a better option. The majority of 6.5 bullets were designed for a rifle with a parallel throat and a freebore. NOT the double angle compound throat. If you want to use a wider variety of hunting bullets the 6.5 Grendel II (orginal chamber) is a better option.

Quote Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
Drifter001,

That's good you are keeping such tabs on what you do with the Grendel. I've certainly had my share of frustration.

This may seem totally odd, but what I ended up doing with my last Grendel, a 24" Satern barrel, was 29 gr. of 8208, with the bullet pushed way back off the lands. Obviously you need a depth tolerant bullet. Berger VLD types don't work so well with that. Lapua, Sierra SMK's and Hornady A-max's did. Norma 130 GT's worked well too.

So, what I found with about 3k rounds downrange. The 6.5 G has about 20% more case capacity than a 5.56, which the rifle's gas system was designed around. The rifle never had the gas system adjusted for that. It becomes really evident when you load temp intolerant powders like AA2520. I got the best velocity out of it (until I tried 8208), but I had to work loads up for summer and winter in Minnesota. Summer loads were trashing brass in the cold Minnesota winters. WTH?? What I found was the temp sensitive powder that didn't burn fast enough was burning too far down the barrel, and put too much pressure back through the gas system. The high pressure pushed early on the BC trying to unlock the bolt. Resultant swipe was from too low of an initial pressure with too slow of a powder. So, I stepped up the load, and in Winter it worked great. Come summertime, the load was too hot.

So, I opted for a faster powder. I was trying to find something about the speed/pressure as AA2520. H4895 was too fast. But, it wasn't temp sensitive. I didn't have the same problem as AA2520, but I couldn't get 123's moving faster than 2500. Someone explained to me about 8208 being made somewhat like Re-17 in that the burn retardant is integral and a lot more predictable. Noting that it was faster than H4895, I gave it a try anyways. It became my go-to load.

One of my biggest problems with the Grendel is the throats of almost every variation are for accuracy. No one cuts a freebore throat, like in 5.56 (vs. .223) or 6.8 SPC II chambers. That freebore, with minimal loss of accuracy, gets a pretty healthy gain in velocity and, I believe, safety. Safety, because some loads given vary so much in different temps, that they cause issues.

One other thing you can do is get an adjustable gas block. Shut it down completely. Then work up loads to your satisfaction in your rifle with whatever powder you choose, i.e. run ladders for all bullets and powders you like. While manually cycling each round. Pick one load that give you what you want. Next, open the gas block in small increments until your rifle cycles satisfactorily. If you change loads, close the gas block and open until rifle cycles. Remember, each load's powder speed/pressure is going to act differently.

 

[Redmanss]

Like I said, for the love of fuck why...

Another typical 6.5 vs. 6.8 thread. 95% noise and you can't tell what the real 5% of truthful information is. This is why my semi 6.5 is a Creedmoor. If you're going to do it, do it right.

Yep, quoting myself. [MENTION=77655]dmike[/MENTION], thanks for reviving this incredibly informative gem of a thread.

Blah blah blah, blah blah blah, name calling, blah blah blah, posting irrelevant pictures of Commies, blah blah blah, I couldn't hack it on another forum so I decided to fuck this one up too, blah blah blah blah...

You know what? Fuck 6.5G (whatever the fuck version they're on), fuck 6.8 Special Ed too. Band wagon bitches have ruined both of the rounds with these petty arguments.

To anyone reading this (or any other 6.5 vs. 6.8 for that matter) thread, here's their assessment: "If I buy a rifle chambered in one of these rounds, am I going to turn into a douche bag too? Fuck it, Creedmoor/.308 it is."

Stay classy guys, stay classy...

 

[dakarhunter]

The only "cult" on the Grendel Forum is treating people with respect, and making technical contributions. It's extremely rare that anyone is banned. You and Woohoo/Bustin/Constructor/Harrison are 2 of maybe 4 people in the entire forum's history, and H has been banned twice. This latest time was for openly stating that the only reason he posts there is to "smear buggers" and the "entertainment value", in addition to making personal threats out of the blue via PM.

He's a great machinist and barrel maker, but he flips out on you out of left field, with no explanation. Can't figure it out really, don't have time to.

Theres a guy on the Hunting with Modern Rifle Facebook page that was banned after his first post on 65grendel complaing about the shipping price of a bolt from Alexander Arms. We all know who really owns the 65forum forum don't we? H never said "smear buggers" either. Yet more fiction from you which almost never ends.

 

[corym468]

I was out shooting with one of the authors of the Grendel reloading manual doing gel testing and was getting pretty fast loads in my Liberty barrel he tried them in his rifles as well. I determined later that it was because the 120gr TTSX was jammed into the lands. That was a year ago and was booted off the forum a year later because the forum mods were conducting an organized attack on satern spreading FUD about competitors of Alexander Arms and i defended Satern. Other words just more lies from the cult. Anyone telling the truth about Grendel II's and 264 LBC's are kicked off the forum. We created Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) where we could have open honest conversations about all AR-15 calibers without all the hate and BS. That was a couple months ago and the forum is doing great. One of the positive things about the 6.8SPC over the Grendel is a healthier more mature community, While i prefer the 6.5 for its ballistics the 6.5 community is a cultish hot mess lead by Bill Alexander bath water drinkers.

Wow, shrinks everywhere are probably salivating at the chance to study your delusional ass.

I seem to recall being banned from your MSR forum after posting the truth and my professional opinion on the liberty barrel chambers.

We also have proof of you deleting posts from that forum that didn't go along with your bullshit or anything about Satern and/or PTG that wasn't kissing their asses.

 

[dakarhunter]

Wow, shrinks everywhere are probably salivating at the chance to study your delusional ass.

I seem to recall being banned from your MSR forum after posting the truth and my professional opinion on the liberty barrel chambers.

We also have proof of you deleting posts from that forum that didn't go along with your bullshit or anything about Satern and/or PTG that wasn't kissing their asses.

No one has been banned besides one mod from 65grendel for site policy violations. Your not banned and never have been. Yes some posts were deleted as promised to the 65grendel mod who was caught trolling.

 

[dakarhunter]

Something to be aware of with the SAAMI grendel throat is "stuck bullet syndrome". The 264LBC and Grendel II are not effected.

Alexander Arms upper won't chamber factory ammo.
https://www.okshooters.com/showthre...-5-grendel-advice-Not-fully-chambering-rounds

A guy with an Alexander Arms upper getting rounds stuck and when extracting the rounds stay in the chamber and its spills gun powder in the upper.
Trouble getting a 6.5 Grendel to shoot | Outdoors | Forums | TexAgs

A guy with an Alexander Arms upper getting rounds stuck
6.5 Grendel or .264 LBC help..... - 24hourcampfire

A Guy with a factory Alexander Arms upper and Amax was having issues with factory rounds getting stuck.
Stuck Bullet [Archive] - 6.5 Grendel Forum : : For the 6.5 Grendel Aficionado

A press reviewer during a shot with a JT upper got a AA factory 120gr TSX stuck during the review.
http://www.jprifles.com/document_pdfs/GANG of 65 GRENDELS _129.pdf

Vmax loaded to specs gets stuck
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=399702

Factory Vmax stuck in 6.5 Grendel with compound throat.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/sniper-hide-gunsmithing/71681-6-5-grendel-extraction-issues.html

Factory Amax won't chamber in Satern barrel
6.5 grendel feeding issues - AR15.Com Archive

Another Alexander Arms upper getting factory Alexander Arms 120gr TTSX round stuck.
New Alexander Arms grendel... Proble out of the box

A guy with a Mcgowen barrel and factory Amax and SST ammo getting stuck. He says " I am using factory grade Hornady A-max or SST 123 gr. ammo. No reloads at all."
Problems with McGowen barrels [Archive] - 6.5 Grendel Forum : : For the 6.5 Grendel Aficionado

Unknown barrel make and 100gr Amax getting stuck.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...nd-stuck-chamber-please-help.html#post2977927

And another report of rounds getting stuck with a Surplus Arms Grendel this time. Notice the broken charging handle from trying to extract the round. Ar ammo getting stuck.

View attachment 42153

 

[LRRPF52]

The same load in my older 24in 6.5mm grendel Liberty barrel with 5R rifling was at 2875fps. Same load with the new 24in Grendel II with 5R rifling is a little over 3000fps. Only thing different in the two rifles is the Grendel II throat. Same exact bullets loaded to the same COAL. I was working up a load for the Grendel II using a longer COAL of 2.265 and was well above 3000fps and decided to try some older loads i brought along for my sons rifle loaded to 2.23in and sure enough above 3000fps. The answer to why is the freebore that didn't exist. Sorry you'll never see those velocitys with your SAAMI chamber but hey you can get good accuracy from 108/123 Scenar bullets so thats cool right lol.

You were jammed into the lands with short-throated Liberty barrel that had a worn reamer used to ream it.

When I did load development with 100gr NBT from my 16", I was able to reach 2700fps with 8208 XBR. I have way more than 600rds through various pipes with compound throats, and the throat is still there.

The compound throat only builds an average of an additional 300psi, so there is no handicap. You've been swallowing the disinformation of Dave Kiff, Harrison, and Satern like gospel truth, without any background to understand what's going on.

To say you're getting over 3000fps than a load that normally gets 2744fps with less powder (the same powder) because of more freebore makes absolutely no sense at all.

You must be talking about the short chamber again where it jams into the lands if you're really getting those speeds with H-335. Who knows what load procedure you are using on the bench.

 

[dakarhunter]

You were jammed into the lands with short-throated Liberty barrel that had a worn reamer used to ream it.

When I did load development with 100gr NBT from my 16", I was able to reach 2700fps with 8208 XBR. I have way more than 600rds through various pipes with compound throats, and the throat is still there.

The compound throat only builds an average of an additional 300psi, so there is no handicap. You've been swallowing the disinformation of Dave Kiff, Harrison, and Satern like gospel truth, without any background to understand what's going on.

To say you're getting over 3000fps than a load that normally gets 2744fps with less powder (the same powder) because of more freebore makes absolutely no sense at all.

You must be talking about the short chamber again where it jams into the lands if you're really getting those speeds with H-335. Who knows what load procedure you are using on the bench.

Sorry its real when i get to the range next i'll make a video to show it with the primers. I'm getting 2780fps with a 120gr Nosler as well which is better than a SAAMI throat with a 100gr. Thats how bad the double angle throat cripples hunting bullets. I think you've been drunk on Bill Alexanders bath water for to long to see anything near reality.

 

[dakarhunter]

Here's the velocity measurements for the 120gr Nosler BT string with LEVR loaded to 2.29in. Tightest group was 31.6gr. A SAAMI grendel of course can't load a 120gr Nosler to 2.29 over even close. 2.23in is closer to reality for a SAAMI throat.

31gr 2727fps 2695fps 2673fps 2698fps 2712fps Average 2701fps
31.3gr 2716fps 2778fps 2741fps 2741fps err Average 2744fps
31.6gr 2796fps 2772fps 2779fps 2772fps 2780fps Average 2779.8fps
31.9gr ERR ERR ERR ERR 2773 (wind was blowing the chrony)
32.2gr 2803fps 2798fps 2798fps 2761fps 2814fps Average 2794.8fps

Primers for 31.6gr of LEVER.


Notice the COAL that people with SAAMI chambers are forced to load to and what velocities they are getting. A good example of how the SAAMI chamber forces bullets to deep in the case robbing velocites.

 

[BravoSierra]

What length barrel are you running to get those velocities?

 

[dakarhunter]

What length barrel are you running to get those velocities?

Those are 24in barrel velocities from a AR Stoner (midwayusa) Grendel II.

 

[346ci]

Lever, as in Leverevolution powder?

Impressive numbers for a .264 AR15 but that is a long pipe. Any numbers from a shorter barrel like a 18" or 20"?

 

[dakarhunter]

Lever, as in Leverevolution powder?

Impressive numbers for a .264 AR15 but that is a long pipe. Any numbers from a shorter barrel like a 18" or 20"?

Yes Leverevolution powder and i have a 16 and 18in Grendel but i have not had them converted to the Grendel II yet. I have to send them back to satern for them to be converted.

 

[waveslayer]

Have the barrel scraped it's not safe with that compound throat. Way too much pressure! I'm glad I had mine scraped

 

[dakarhunter]

The shooters notes velocity calculater is predicting a 2657fps from a 18in barrel which is faster than a SAAMI grendel throated 24in.

 

[dakarhunter]

Have the barrel scraped it's not safe with that compound throat. Way too much pressure! I'm glad I had mine scraped

The barrel is already a Grendel II and does not need converted my others do though.

 

[corym468]

Lever, as in Leverevolution powder?

Impressive numbers for a .264 AR15 but that is a long pipe. Any numbers from a shorter barrel like a 18" or 20"?

Don't fall into believing a word of his bullshit.

We've been through this before with him. He's obviously using his old Liberty 24" with the bullets jammed into the lands.

There's nothing magical about about how a rifle works. It's physics and the physics don't add up here.

He has to be approaching 60ksi to be able to get those velocities.

Don't believe me read on for yourself.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/show...-about-your-Midwayusa-AR-Stoner-barrel./page2

darkarhunter=xcountryrider

 

[dakarhunter]

Don't fall into believing a word of his bullshit.

We've been through this before with him. He's obviously using his old Liberty 24" with the bullets jammed into the lands.

There's nothing magical about about how a rifle works. It's physics and the physics don't add up here.

He has to be approaching 60ksi to be able to get those velocities.

Lol my max measured COAL using the Hornady gauge is 2.310in and this string was loaded to 2.29in so no not to the lands. Getting desperate i see. Next trip to the range i'll fire a string to 2.3in using a PRI mag which allows 2.305in COAL. It would be 60K if it was that shorter compound throat with that double angle crap.