Looking for insight. Is my gun trash?

[exacto]

Long story short, I have a POF Rogue AR 16.5" in 308 - can't seem to get it to group within 4moa with my go to round, 175smk (factory ammo). So I hand loaded some and took my lee hand press to try different seat depths.. tried 10 depths at .005" increments and couldn't get 2 bullets within 2" of each other.

Called POF and they blamed my "too hot" ammo - I never said how hot they were, actually had a lower velocity "accuracy" load per Sierra load data. So I asked what ammo they recommended and the customer service rep emailed me a list, which included the very ammo I was shooting. He also suggested I buy an adjustable gas block - if the gun needs one to be accurate, why wouldn't it come with one?

Went yesterday at lunch to try some lighter ammo with result below. I thought the barrel was just bad until I shot the 150gn and had 3 in the same hole.

After suggesting I didn't know how to shoot a semi-auto and they were different than bolt guns, he suggested the ONE cartridge to hang my hat on with this rifle is the Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr SMK... I started to order a box, but I really have no interest in owning a gun that will only shoot better than 3 or 4 MOA with ONE ammo flavor.

Any ideas??

 

[RUTGERS95]

I'd try more lower weight loadings to confirm barrel just doesn't like heavier weights. That said, thats terrible as I don't see that big desceprency amongst weights in my 308s

 

[Mike_in_FL]

OP, you probably don't want to hear this but POF was right. They aren't the same as bolt actions. So unless you do have experience with them, it may be you.

Has anybody else shot the rifle?
How many rounds through it now?
When you're shooting groups are you single loading or feeding from the magazine?
Any chance the bullets are being damaged by the feed ramps when mag fed?
Shooting from a bench or bipod?
Possible bad scope, loose rings, loose mount?

 

[TurboTrout]

Try a different AR10, and let a different person try your rifle, easiest thing to rule out.

We’re you shooting benched and bagged?

 

[W54/XM-388]

Some specific AR10 style platforms do really well with the lower weights than with the higher ones, based on how the barrel and gas system is setup.

Looking at your target of the 150gr stuff it looks like the rifle shoots a very tight group with that.
I'm betting with work practicing how to drive it, you won't get those flyers and could keep the whole group tight.

You might also try the 155gr match stuff and see how it likes it.

Do you know what barrel twist you have on that specific build?

 

[exacto]

OP, you probably don't want to hear this but POF was right. They aren't the same as bolt actions. So unless you do have experience with them, it may be you.

Has anybody else shot the rifle?
How many rounds through it now?
When you're shooting groups are you single loading or feeding from the magazine?
Any chance the bullets are being damaged by the feed ramps when mag fed?
Shooting from a bench or bipod?
Possible bad scope, loose rings, loose mount?

Hey Mike, I hope they are right. I'd much rather it be something I'm doing that's an easy fix. I've got around 200 rounds through it. Haven't had anyone else shoot it yet, but I'll try it. I've single loaded them and magazine fed them with no difference. I've shot with bipod and rear bag prone as well as on a bench with front and rear bags. I do torque optics and mounts to spec, but haven't tried a different scope (using vortex strike eagle 3-18x44mm currently).

I will throw another scope on it and try some even lower weight bullets, as well as the POF prescribed 168smk federals - and if that doesn't work, have someone else shoot it.

Thanks for feedback!

 

[exacto]

Some specific AR10 style platforms do really well with the lower weights than with the higher ones, based on how the barrel and gas system is setup.

Looking at your target of the 150gr stuff it looks like the rifle shoots a very tight group with that.
I'm betting with work practicing how to drive it, you won't get those flyers and could keep the whole group tight.

You might also try the 155gr match stuff and see how it likes it.

Do you know what barrel twist you have on that specific build?

1 in 8 twist. I'm not saying practice won't fix it, but I shoot bolt guns every weekend and get consistent .2-.4 moa.. I can't imagine a semi-auto would be that different, but I guess it's possible.

 

[nn8734]

1 in 8 twist. I'm not saying practice won't fix it, but I shoot bolt guns every weekend and get consistent .2-.4 moa.. I can't imagine a semi-auto would be that different, but I guess it's possible.

You sure its an 8 twist?

308s are typically 10, 11 or 12 twist, all of those handle the 175 smk just fine. Bearing surface, moreso than weight is the determining factor in bullet stability through the supersonic flight envelope to transonic.

Semis are challenging because they are much less forgiving when it comes to problems woth your fundamentals, ive seen my own groups look like your pic above where the cause was me. But its def worth ruling out other causes (scope, mount, issue with rifle construction, etc).

 

[db2000]

Surely not 1:8. Check again. Also, I agree with having someone else shoot it and you shoot theirs if possible. If that truly is how inaccurate the gun is with factory 175 SMK, then it is garbage and POF should make it right.

 

[W54/XM-388]

1:8 would be a very unusually fast twist rate for a .308 semi-auto.

 

[nn8734]

There’s no way its 1:8; if so it needs to go back to POF immediately. Most semi 308s have a 10 or 11 twist these days.

 

[W54/XM-388]

1 in 8 twist. I'm not saying practice won't fix it, but I shoot bolt guns every weekend and get consistent .2-.4 moa.. I can't imagine a semi-auto would be that different, but I guess it's possible.

A semi-auto .308 is a very different beast when it comes to shooting well than a bolt gun.

That being said, you might want to verify that twist rate, if it's legit 1:8 as mentioned above, probably needs to be swapped for a 1:10 or similar.

 

[exacto]

I will verify by looking at the barrel shortly

 

[264win]

If it is a 1-8 twist, shooting light bullets would not help. Something in the 180-200 grain range may work best.

 

[chase723]

Take the muzzle brake off and see if it shoots better.

 

[DocRDS]

While I am always "Trust but verify" evidence suggests its NOT the shooter. Everyone always claims semi is harder than bolt but will a experienced shooter have their groups open up to 4MOA? That seems excessive.

Verify that its not you, but I would not trust that firearm--your experience with it lends me to beleive it is the rifle, not the shooter. Yes, I am not as good with my DPMS AR-10 (a shitty rifle) versus my AI (a non shitty bolt) or 308 Bolt gun (a shitty bolt). Its not 4 MOA difference though. And that 150 group, either you sneezed on those 2 fliers or something is VERY VERY amiss. That's "scope is loose" at 100 yards accuracy.

That twist rate is stupid fast, on the podcast Frank even mention 1:8 being bad for 300PRC (I think, memory getting old) in 308 its gotta be bad mojo.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Thanks for feedback!

I certainly hope you get it sorted out because I know it sucks. Barrel has enough rounds through it, sometimes I'll strip all the copper out at this point and start again. If you have or know somebody that has a phone borescope it might be worth taking a look at the gas port to see if there's a burr there building up copper.

Suggestion for your reloads even with that 1:8. 168/175 @ 2.800, 41.5 4895 in LC brass or 41.8 4064. If that doesn't shoot I wouldn't have much hope. I guess we have to operate under the assumption they torqued the barrel nut properly and it's not loose.

Not a Vortex fan, fan of the warranty. I'd try another scope just to see.

 

[nn8734]

View attachment 7823256
I will verify by looking at the barrel shortly

Well, if they are making that thing with an 8 twist, “Rogue” is definitely an appropriate monkier for it.

 

[exacto]

View attachment 7823256
I will verify by looking at the barrel shortly

 

[nn8734]

View attachment 7823328

Does it have a rifle length gas or mid length? You notice any pressure signs on any of your fired brass?

 

[D_TROS]

if it shoots the 150's in one hole...whats the problem? lol vey few AR's shoot one hole. Looks like you lucked out. Buy a bunch of that ammo!


Regards
DT

 

[264win]

if it shoots the 150's in one hole...whats the problem? lol vey few AR's shoot one hole. Looks like you lucked out. Buy a bunch of that ammo!


Regards
DT

3 of 5 in one hole, the other two about 5” away. In the picture they are so far apart it’s easy to miss them

 

[TheHorta]

Try putting the dot or crosshair in the same spot for every round.

 

[acudaowner]

close your eyes and use force luke

 

[smoothy8500]

Try putting the dot or crosshair in the same spot for every round.

LOL.....

 

[D_TROS]

3 of 5 in one hole, the other two about 5” away. In the picture they are so far apart it’s easy to miss them

 

[hafejd30]

Swap that crap optic out and try again

Your group indicates it wants to shoot

 

[DocRDS]

Well now that the damn trolls are here,

Not exactly the same but it may appear a thourough breakdown and inspected may be warranted of your firearm



(Just look at the very end of the video: bolt had loose gas key/port.)

brief google search sees many people reporting accuracy problems...

 

[ma smith]

There was discussion about short bbl 1-8 twist 30 cal around SH

I dont recall consensus that it was recommended

any reason why OEM is using it?

Like sub-sonics?

 

[Midwestside]

but I shoot bolt guns every weekend and get consistent .2-.4 moa..

"Under 1/4" MOA All Day"
You're going to fit right in.

 

[LRRPF52]

Hey Mike, I hope they are right. I'd much rather it be something I'm doing that's an easy fix. I've got around 200 rounds through it. Haven't had anyone else shoot it yet, but I'll try it. I've single loaded them and magazine fed them with no difference. I've shot with bipod and rear bag prone as well as on a bench with front and rear bags. I do torque optics and mounts to spec, but haven't tried a different scope (using vortex strike eagle 3-18x44mm currently).

I will throw another scope on it and try some even lower weight bullets, as well as the POF prescribed 168smk federals - and if that doesn't work, have someone else shoot it.

Thanks for feedback!

I wouldn’t trust that optic to hold together internally on a 5.9lb .308 gasser.

That group could very well be indicative of gear slip in the turrets from recoil and secondary reciprocating mass effects slamming into the breech and barrel extension.

A 5.9lb .308 gasser needs a really tough optic built with epoxied optical lenses and optical modules permanently fixed in place, with some of the best turret metallurgy the industry has to offer.

It should have something like Razor or NightForce-level durability on top of it, not Chyna Eagle price point optics meant to sell at volume.

Change that and see what happens. See how tight rounds 1,3,4 were?

Also, 1/8 twist is ideal for a 16.5” .308 Win. MV will be slower, so to stabilize 175s, tighter twist makes sense. Todd Hodnett did a lot of testing with that using 1/9 in 16” gassers taking them way out with 175gr SMK. You aren’t going to hurt the bullets at 16” .308 speed, even shooting 135gr Hollow Points as fast as possible.

 

[powdahound76]

Some clown named Brianna Lipshitz or something just had an informative post about tight twists, including the 1/8 in a .308.

Never heard of her, apparently some science nerd about bullets and stuff.

End says you need a level. Do you have a level

So maybe POF is at the front of things and yall are Fudds?
Likely

 

[exacto]

I wouldn’t trust that optic to hold together internally on a 5.9lb .308 gasser.

That group could very well be indicative of gear slip in the turrets from recoil and secondary reciprocating mass effects slamming into the breech and barrel extension.

A 5.9lb .308 gasser needs a really tough optic built with epoxied optical lenses and optical modules permanently fixed in place, with some of the best turret metallurgy the industry has to offer.

It should have something like Razor or NightForce-level durability on top of it, not Chyna Eagle price point optics meant to sell at volume.

Change that and see what happens. See how tight rounds 1,3,4 were?

Also, 1/8 twist is ideal for a 16.5” .308 Win. MV will be slower, so to stabilize 175s, tighter twist makes sense. Todd Hodnett did a lot of testing with that using 1/9 in 16” gassers taking them way out with 175gr SMK. You aren’t going to hurt the bullets at 16” .308 speed, even shooting 135gr Hollow Points as fast as possible.

Yeah the fast twist is one reason I bought this one. I'm a big fan of Todd and I like to shoot high bc/heavy bullets.

You may be onto something on the recoil effect on optic - it does kick like a mule for a 308 as light as it is. I have a razor amg I use on my 300 win mag I'll throw on and see what happens.

 

[DocRDS]

Some clown named Brianna Lipshitz or something just had an informative post about tight twists, including the 1/8 in a .308.

Never heard of her, apparently some science nerd about bullets and stuff.

End says you need a level. Do you have a level

So maybe POF is at the front of things and yall are Fudds?
Likely

Apparently my search fu is weak. Link o master?

 

[powdahound76]

Oh damn….. I knew you were gonna ask.
Lemme dig.
Pretending to work, so may take a little while

 

[roostercogburn98]

1:8 sounds like they had a shitload of leftover barrels from a blackout run and said fuck it.

I wonder if one of the mopar engineers that slammed a hellcat motor in a minivan recently got hired on at POF?

 

[powdahound76]

Perhaps I got hoodwinked with this and its all BS.
Have not had time to correlate with his website or confirmed written stuff. Yet.

The dig on the gender fluid was funny too.

 

[Ledzep]

Lower drag is not the same as lower dispersion.

Rotational velocity is squared in the equation that determines eccentric imbalance forces, and it has a negative effect on dispersion. Every bullet has some level of eccentric imbalance. It doesn't take much imbalance to cause problems, and spinning it faster exacerbates them.

There are also issues with terminal performance windows & bullet integrity with uber-fast twists.

 

[db2000]

Enough’s, enough with all the speculation.
Frankly after thinking more about it, 4 MOA, I’d just call POF and tell them to send the return shipping label and be done with it. There’s no way you suck that bad just because it’s “a gasser”.

 

[Gtscotty]

The Rogue really does have a 1:8 twist, and always has, that didn't keep mine from grouping better than I figured a sub-6lb naked .308 semi should. It is definitely work shooting a .308 semi that light for groups, not much in common with something like a PRS rig.

I don't know if it's the shooter opening it up that much, but it could be flinch or something if you're putting 3 in a hole and two off yonder.... or something could be loose.

If you're wanting a load to try, mine did well with 168gr over 43.5 of 4064 (a solid load over multiple rifles for me), and with the aforementioned 168gr FGMM.

 

[1500varmint]

Maybe try some shots closer and see what happens.

Five shots at 25 yards, then 50 yards, then 100 with the same load...

 

[Animal357]

I shoot 8 twist barrels in 308 after Hodnett recommend it to me. He explained that it performs better in transonic speeds without reducing accuracy in sub and super sonic speeds

Loose barrel, loose or broken optic could be the culprit

In terms of shooting differently than bolts, I shoot my bolt guns with a slow trigger pull, but my auto prefers a faster pull. Thought that was odd

 

[SDet]

Try pulling the hand guard. My Rouge was a pile, but too long of screws were gouging the barrel nut. Not sure how it effected accuracy, had to mortar after every round. Part of the "500 round break in" was their excuse. Adjustable gas block and heavy buffer got it to run eventually.

Their stock brake is pretty useless, that and overgassing would explain the recoil. The gas key is another good idea, mine didn't even contact the dove tail and pof returned it, saying it was "in spec".

 

[Thorbeast]

I don't think 8 twist is the problem... It's not like the 308 is sending bullets at 3k fps. You are probably getting 2400 fps with the 175s? Maybe less? I'm not an expert on external ballistics, but I don't think the 1:8 twist is the problem.

If you really want to solve this... Try to disassemble the rifle and then reassemble. After that, try a different scope (and mount). And try a different shooter. If none of those work, send it back, if possible. Do those rifles have some sort of accuracy guarantee or satisfaction guarantee? Personally, I don't like wasting time trying to "fix" high dollar firearms that should be good to go out of the box. If this were a $600 PSA special, I would understand.

 

[LRRPF52]

Perhaps I got hoodwinked with this and its all BS.
Have not had time to correlate with his website or confirmed written stuff. Yet.

The dig on the gender fluid was funny too.

View attachment 7823432View attachment 7823433View attachment 7823434View attachment 7823432View attachment 7823433View attachment 7823434

This is a real thing. I’ve watched 12” twist .308s come apart at about 800yds for decades now when spotting for shooters. Repeatable and predictable shot placement on steel is no problem out to 750yds, then at 800yds, a dispersion opens up and you can’t get predictable hits.

It’s why they went to 11.25” twist on the M24 (shooting the old M118 173gr FMJBT target bullet), which still isn’t ideal for a shorter barrel.

Conversely, I’ve seen the impact profiles of 7mm and .338 bullets that didn’t nose over after passing through their maximum ordinates, which then came down through reactive aluminum silhouette targets at a high AOA, but still had predictable impact at 1100-1300m. They went through like a keyhole profile, but consistently nose-up. Those had tight twists.

So the 1/8 rifling is ideal for a 16” .308 Winchester, not an accident or production shoehorn cost-savings measure. If I was custom-building a .308 Win, it would have a minimum of a 9 twist. A 16” .308 with a tight twist has consistent POI from 800yds on out, whereas a 24” 12 twist does not.

 

[TurboTrout]

This is a real thing. I’ve watched 12” twist .308s come apart at about 800yds for decades now when spotting for shooters. Repeatable and predictable shot placement on steel is no problem out to 750yds, then at 800yds, a dispersion opens up and you can’t get predictable hits.

It’s why they went to 11.25” twist on the M24 (shooting the old M118 173gr FMJBT target bullet), which still isn’t ideal for a shorter barrel.

Conversely, I’ve seen the impact profiles of 7mm and .338 bullets that didn’t nose over after passing through their maximum ordinates, which then came down through reactive aluminum silhouette targets at a high AOA, but still had predictable impact at 1100-1300m. They went through like a keyhole profile, but consistently nose-up. Those had tight twists.

So the 1/8 rifling is ideal for a 16” .308 Winchester, not an accident or production shoehorn cost-savings measure. If I was custom-building a .308 Win, it would have a minimum of a 9 twist. A 16” .308 with a tight twist has consistent POI from 800yds on out, whereas a 24” 12 twist does not.

This is why I was going to do a 6bra build for the summer when I go out to a range that has steel to 1,300, right around 800 it seems the 308 runs out of gas.

So with a 1:9 a 308 would be good to range? There no free lunch, so does this mean my damn near able to pass the barrel on to my grand kids 308 is going to eat barrels like a 6mm now?

 

[LRRPF52]

This is why I was going to do a 6bra build for the summer when I go out to a range that has steel to 1,300, right around 800 it seems the 308 runs out of gas.

So with a 1:9 a 308 would be good to range? There no free lunch, so does this mean my damn near able to pass the barrel on to my grand kids 308 is going to eat barrels like a 6mm now?

.308 Win case diameter to neck diameter ratio is so low, that it doesn’t stress throats as much as overbore cartridges run at high pressure, hence the long throat and bore life. Twist rate will have minimal effect on that.

6.5 Grendels have 1/7.5 to 1/9 twists, and even longer barrel life than .308, with more overbore, but lower working pressure.

 

[TurboTrout]

.308 Win case diameter to neck diameter ratio is so low, that it doesn’t stress throats as much as overbore cartridges run at high pressure, hence the long throat and bore life. Twist rate will have minimal effect on that.

6.5 Grendels have 1/7.5 to 1/9 twists, and even longer barrel life than .308, with more overbore, but lower working pressure.

Hmm, so a 18” 1:8 bartlin may be in my Tikas future

 

[Animal357]

This is a real thing. I’ve watched 12” twist .308s come apart at about 800yds for decades now when spotting for shooters. Repeatable and predictable shot placement on steel is no problem out to 750yds, then at 800yds, a dispersion opens up and you can’t get predictable hits.

It’s why they went to 11.25” twist on the M24 (shooting the old M118 173gr FMJBT target bullet), which still isn’t ideal for a shorter barrel.

Conversely, I’ve seen the impact profiles of 7mm and .338 bullets that didn’t nose over after passing through their maximum ordinates, which then came down through reactive aluminum silhouette targets at a high AOA, but still had predictable impact at 1100-1300m. They went through like a keyhole profile, but consistently nose-up. Those had tight twists.

So the 1/8 rifling is ideal for a 16” .308 Winchester, not an accident or production shoehorn cost-savings measure. If I was custom-building a .308 Win, it would have a minimum of a 9 twist. A 16” .308 with a tight twist has consistent POI from 800yds on out, whereas a 24” 12 twist does not.

Funny, I was shooting 308s with a 1:8 twist out to 1 mile on 14" plates in a Todd Hodnett class

 

[drewthebrave]

Might be time to get a more reliable optic to get this sorted out. I like having one of these fixed power SWFA SS optics handy for just that reason - they're cheap enough to have a spare, and durable enough to withstand just about anything you can mount them to.

Riflescopes - Used & Demo - SWFA Outdoors

www.samplelist.com