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Looking for insight. Is my gun trash?
- Thread starter exacto
- Start date
After reading all the suggestions and thinking about it, the reticle jumping seems most plausible to me. I just purchased a NF from another member here. Should be here Monday. Fingers crossed.Might be time to get a more reliable optic to get this sorted out. I like having one of these fixed power SWFA SS optics handy for just that reason - they're cheap enough to have a spare, and durable enough to withstand just about anything you can mount them to.
Riflescopes - Used & Demo - SWFA Outdoors
www.samplelist.com
I know we got off sidetracked on the 1:8, just remember there's a reason we dont keep going faster and faster on twist. Eventually the bullet spins itself apart. As people correctly pointed out, 308 is not a particularly fast round, just remember, people do eventually get problems with barrels that are too fast a twist. When you troubleshoot you flag stuff "out of the ordinary" and lets be honest 1:8 is unusual at this time. We hashed it out, but it is good to note when "one of these things is not like the other"
My general troubleshooting goes like this:
(1) Did I fuck up? (usually not, but there have been days) -- Trade shooters
(2) Is the scope setup correctly (found a few here) --Trade scope/sights
(3) Is the ammo crap
(4) Is the gun capable of what I am asking (Stupid M1As! and eyes)
(5) Is the gun defective--is anything abnormal? (Starting with the crap I did to it).
YMMV
I guarantee people will ask 1-4 even if your handle is lowlight. My trouble is at my range, I'm the expert and that's petrifying because I'm not.
My general troubleshooting goes like this:
(1) Did I fuck up? (usually not, but there have been days) -- Trade shooters
(2) Is the scope setup correctly (found a few here) --Trade scope/sights
(3) Is the ammo crap
(4) Is the gun capable of what I am asking (Stupid M1As! and eyes)
(5) Is the gun defective--is anything abnormal? (Starting with the crap I did to it).
YMMV
I guarantee people will ask 1-4 even if your handle is lowlight. My trouble is at my range, I'm the expert and that's petrifying because I'm not.
There is a 20” PVA Tikka shouldered prefit in the exchange for a great price. 1-9 twist, medium palma, 5/8-24 threaded. This is what PVA recommends and all they chamber unless you specify differently. They put out exceptional barrels. I have/had several.
I should've mentioned that way back when. If they do jump when the hammer falls, they need to move to the same place and back to where you were aiming or else you probably have a problem. Easy test dry firing.
Lots of reading on this rifle. Several have said they had to send their barrel back in because of poor accuracy.
From der Google
| Rogue .308 Win | 5/8-24 | RH 1:8 |
Most people don’t want to hear this, but I will never mount anything but a NF, Vortex Razor, PST Gen II, AMG, (or something made in LOW factory with epoxied lenses and modules) on an AR-10. AR-10s love to trash optics.
On a 5.9lb AR-15 chambered in .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO (which is what the Rogue is), even with the smaller AR-15 bolt carrier, there is a lot of recoil energy and reciprocating mass impact back into battery sending 3 main shock impulses that resonate through the optic.
Anything but the toughest optics will get beat to death. Large Frame AR-10s are one of the worst because the BCG is so massive. When it slams home, it really puts a hurt on the optic.
I think some great optics for these little Rogues are:
Vortex Gen III 1-10x Razor
NF NX8
agree, optic choice is important. I generally use burris on my 308s and they seem to hold up very well.
I am curious, what profile is the barrel ?... I realize it is most likely quite light... but how light ? Pencil ?
Is the gas block making any contact with the FF handguard ? ... for that matter is ANYthing making contact with the barrel / gas block. Bipod mount ?
I also don't think the 1n8 twist would produce such poor precision.
Is the gas block making any contact with the FF handguard ? ... for that matter is ANYthing making contact with the barrel / gas block. Bipod mount ?
I also don't think the 1n8 twist would produce such poor precision.
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I don't think 1:8 twist is an issue. I know they are bolt guns but desert tech has always made the srs covert .308 with a 1:8 twist claiming it makes the shorter barrel more accurate at long ranges. Think someone already posted an explenation on this thread. Do you have a quick release scope mount like american defense? One of those caused me the same issue on my pof p308. It felt tight when I checked it but I swapped it for a jp mount anyway. That was my problem.
There is a website on YouTube called "School of the American Rifle"; this guy specializes in ARs and he can gauge every nook and cranny of your rifle all day long. I mean this guy is dialed in! He can tell you if there is ANYTHING out of spec on your piece. I'd try the scope change and if that doesn't work, try sending it to him; at least you'll know!
just as long as your overlords don't pretend when it comes to paying you.
I had a similar problem with my AR10. Every few shots it would throw a flyer but "my zero is still ok" when I checked it. Turned out my qd scope mount was coming loose from recoil. I swapped it for a more secure mount and it seems to have resolved the issue.
1/8 twist not going work for you in that gun.
I am afraid you are going need to go to a more standard twist rate. Good luck.
I am afraid you are going need to go to a more standard twist rate. Good luck.
Yet another good reason for lightweight bolt carriers in large frames. They don’t need to be that heavy.
My current 308 bolt carrier is 1/2 oz lighter than an M16 carrier, which calmed the rifle down a lot compared to the original carrier weight. You can really feel the difference.
Yep, the carrier in the Rogue is an AR-15 carrier, so the reciprocating mass is pretty reasonable.
Interesting, I didn’t know that about the Rogue.
Not that it eliminates the possibility of a broken scope, I mean 4” groups and Vortex points to that being the most likely problem, but it should at least be less likely to kill scopes in the future than a standard pattern 308 AR.
He uses the armorer’s tools to diagnose the dimensions and any faults with uppers or complete rifles that customers send him.............for Mil-Std 5.56 NATO chambered AR-15s.
The POF Rogue is substantially-different than a 5.56 NATO AR-15. Some of the gauges would work, while others would not. The Rogue is a very unique rifle or pistol in that they are AR-15 receivers, but the lower has an SR-25 magazine well and the fire control group datum is moved to the rear about .625” due to that, which also means the firing pin head is longer to align with full extension hammer swing.
The bolt is proprietary in metallurgy and geometry, as is the barrel extension. The extractor is unique to the Rogue as well.
SOAR doesn’t often diagnose accuracy problems on proprietary rifles, though I think he does have the experience to troubleshoot something major if it was wrong. I do enjoy that channel, as it documents things in video form that most people aren’t aware of, especially the gas system efficiency of the bolt, carrier, key, gas tube, and gas block.
1/8 twist in that rifle is perfect. Read up on the repeated demonstrations by Todd Hodnett and the applied physics behind it from Bryan Litz.
I remember seeing the Todd Hodnett classes from about 10-12 years ago where he experimented with 1/9 twist 16” .308 gas guns that would keep a 175gr stabilized out to well into ELR territory on pretty small plates in his courses. A 12” twist .308 at 24” will not do that, and actually falls apart most of the time at 800yds. He later went to 1/8 twist. It was addressed in the thread if you read through it.
1/8 twist for a 16.5” .308 is ideal if you want to shoot 175s, 178s, etc.
26" 1:12 and 1:11.5 barrels for the .308 have no problem with repeatably hitting 2moa 1000y targets using the 155gr and similar projectiles.
Yup. Loaded with Palma brass pushing max pressures and speeds.
I can’t say I've ever seen a 12” twist stay stabilized past 800yds, even at 6600ft elevation in the summer.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, but just that in the past 28 years of regularly shooting and spotting especially for 7.62 NATO and .308 Win., I haven’t seen one do it. That’s also probably because most of the few people who bring .308s are shooting 11.25” or 10” twists.
I have seen and shot plenty of 11.25” twist 18”-24” with 175gr SMK out to 900-1100yds occasionally.
The main rifles I have seen with 12” twist are SCAR-17Ss, and not one has been able to maintain a predictable impact once we get past 800yds.
It’s interesting because several of the winning Palma guys are using tighter and tighter twists these days, to include 1/10.
One of the main reasons they shoot 155s in Palma is because of the type of position they’re using, i.e. no bipod, no rear bag, no front support other than their slung-in, tight-gloved hand jammed into sling stud junction.
When shooting bullets heavier than 155gr, it can get tiring throughout the day, with lots of recoil and torque taking their toll on the hand/wrist. That type of physical fatigue in a key point of contact with the rifle will make the end-of-string and end-of-day shots really wobbly for most shooters.
The tighter the twist rate and heavier the bullet, the more pronounced you will feel the torque and recoil.
These are considerations exacerbated by the Palma discipline that probably don’t apply to most other shooters as much, although the effects of torque and recoil are 2 of the main reasons .308 isn’t seen often in LR competitions these days, and hasn’t been there for a while in top or even mid-placements.
I would normally say to ignore those factors for this instance, but since we’re dealing with a 5.9lb .308 gasser, the torque is going to be significant on it no matter what you do to it short of a machine rest with vice clamps. That will also place rotational stress on the optical mounting solution if there is any weakness there.
I’m betting actual weight of his rifle is well over 8+ lb. 5.9 lb might be accurate for the stripped rifle, but add the scope and mount, and a mag, and that can easily be another 2+ lb, so in the same realm as a lot of hunting rifles. No real point to make here other than just perspective.
I’m still going with it’s a bad scope.
That’s giving the OP the benefit of the doubt on managing an AR trigger and follow through, but he’d have to be really bad for that to be the whole issue. The scope on the other hand could easily account for all of it.
You can add various amounts of weight to any setup, but it's a difference without a distinction in this context. The Rogue is way lighter than pretty much any other .308 AR comparing both dressed or both naked, and it does buck and twist a little as the man suggests.
This thread is making me want another Rogue, the only sin mine had was that it wasn't well suited to be dedicated suppressor host. If they came with intermediate length gas, I might have to pick up another.
So you’re demonstrating that I’m right, but arguing that I’m wrong or it doesn’t matter? Sounds about right.
Where it matters is perspective- it weighs right about the same as a lot of 308 bolt action hunting rifles. I’ve had mine about that same ~8 lb weight too, and it doesn’t kick that bad, in fact it’s milder than a similar weight RAR if you don’t have a heavy AR10 bolt carrier in it.
Funny how it’s the complete weight of the rifle as it’ll fired that is more relevant than a stripped down weight…
So you’re demonstrating that I’m right, but arguing that I’m wrong or it doesn’t matter? Sounds about right.
Where it matters is perspective- it weighs right about the same as a lot of 308 bolt action hunting rifles. I’ve had mine about that same ~8 lb weight too, and it doesn’t kick that bad, in fact it’s milder than a similar weight RAR if you don’t have a heavy AR10 bolt carrier in it.
Funny how it’s the complete weight of the rifle as it’ll fired that is more relevant than a stripped down weight…
No need to bust out the Emojis, I was just agreeing with you that there was "no real point to make" on your distinction. I think everyone would reasonably assume that 5.9lb is the naked advertised weight, and that most ready to shoot configurations would be some amount heavier.
That doesn't change the fact that there are only a handful of factory .308s on the market that will match the Rogue on it's 5.9lb naked weight (Kimber makes most of the options that aren't $2k), and it is without a doubt, an ultralight anomaly in the field of .308 ARs. To pretend that it's basically just like most hunting rifles (especially on this site) is a little ridiculous.
I didn't say it "kicked" a lot, but a significant portion of it's total weight jumps around with each trigger pull, and I noticed the twist shooting mine. Have you shot one before?
In the spirit of numbers over hand waiving, all of my favorite hunting rifles are advertised as lightweights, but only the Kimber is noticeably lighter than my Rogue was.
Regardless, 4" groups should not be the norm, if the OP is confident in his light rifle technique, the scope checks out, nothing is loose and a decent factory ammo doesn't change things, I'd certainly send the rifle back for repair.
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Can't say for sure about being stable, but Sometime you should try shooting my AI AW rifle with the original 26" barrel that pushes the 155gr Lapua factory rounds out at 2850 ish at the 1000y range I use it at that is about 500ft above sea level. If you don't hit the 24" plate at 1000y each time you send one, it's because you did the wind wrong or the wind changed on you.
Never really tried seeing what groups were like at that distance.
That being said, that same barrel cannot shoot subsonic 308 rounds, they will impact the target sideways at 100y
I have an AI AE MKIII factory barrel that’s a 1/12 that shoots 308 no problem to 1k and my reloads to 1,100 yards. Before any wind starts I can hit 1,200 yards fairly regular.
This is all at 900ft above sea level too
I’ve shot factory 175gr to 1100yds from 22” .308 DTA with first-round impacts on larger targets (tighter twist), but have never seen a factory load hold together from a 12” twist .308 past 800yds. Again, I haven’t had a lot of rifles that fit those specs come through, and spent almost all of my time shooting 173gr M118, 175gr M118LR, and 155gr Scenar through tighter twist pipes.
Back when we believed the BCs on 155gr Scenar, I shot, loaded, and competed with that on UKD multi-day team matches from 22” Obermeyer before I made the switch to .260 Rem and never really looked back much.
I actually added a .308 to my collection last year on a panic-buy, thinking about loading 175 RDFs or 185 Bergers. It has a 10 twist, 16” length. I wish it was 1/9 or 1/8. I haven’t even shot it yet.
175 SMKs are coming down like a mortar though if you ever watch them through a spotting scope. Tiny shifts in position when recovering from the shot can mean going over and then short of the TGT, and low hits look like misses because they deflect off the bottom and into the dirt.
130gr VLD is like a laser from 6.5mm.
Something the size of the Rogue would really be better chambered in a 2.500” cartridge spitting a lighter grain bullet than the heavy .30 cals. The torque is pretty substantial, and works against you for sight picture and reliability with the cartridge stack.
That space is really void in the market.
We’re constrained with .223-based cartridges and actions limited to 2.260” COL in the mags.
Then jump up to 2.800+” for the .308-based actions.
For a lightweight action that would fill the middle, there really isn’t anything.
Back when we believed the BCs on 155gr Scenar, I shot, loaded, and competed with that on UKD multi-day team matches from 22” Obermeyer before I made the switch to .260 Rem and never really looked back much.
I actually added a .308 to my collection last year on a panic-buy, thinking about loading 175 RDFs or 185 Bergers. It has a 10 twist, 16” length. I wish it was 1/9 or 1/8. I haven’t even shot it yet.
175 SMKs are coming down like a mortar though if you ever watch them through a spotting scope. Tiny shifts in position when recovering from the shot can mean going over and then short of the TGT, and low hits look like misses because they deflect off the bottom and into the dirt.
130gr VLD is like a laser from 6.5mm.
Something the size of the Rogue would really be better chambered in a 2.500” cartridge spitting a lighter grain bullet than the heavy .30 cals. The torque is pretty substantial, and works against you for sight picture and reliability with the cartridge stack.
That space is really void in the market.
We’re constrained with .223-based cartridges and actions limited to 2.260” COL in the mags.
Then jump up to 2.800+” for the .308-based actions.
For a lightweight action that would fill the middle, there really isn’t anything.
sounds like you haven't shot many AR10s.. Rogue is low recoil, Colt huge recoil like a 6lb bolt action hunting rifle
not to single you out, just a lot of speculation in this thread
That answer reminds me of MP5 clone mfg's saying don't use xyz quality brand ammo.
I'd be curious to see a Renegade run without the adjustable block...would accuracy degrade. Would be interesting.
Weird. I’m on my 6th AR-10 now. First was purchased in 2002. So 20 years not only shooting mine, but many others that come through courses, fixing, re-building, and accurizing them. I competed with AR-10s from 2007-2016, first in .308 Win, then switched to .260 Rem.
I think you saw the word “recoil” and thought I was talking about perceived recoil. I was talking about the resonant shock that propagates from the rifle, through the mount, into the scope body and shakes components apart, not on how someone feels recoil impulses.
right, but Colt is also semi auto, therefore would have more of the same issue..and if it recoils multiple times more then it would eat more scopes like a BMG
Well regards the MP5 situation, they are knock offs of an SMG, and SMGs are usually designed to utilize higher pressure ammo. So there could be some validity to that advice.
My DTA 16in 1:8 has no issue with 155-175 and isn’t inherently more or less accurate than the 20in AI AE mk 3 1:12 twist that it replaced with 155-175 class bullets.
The 1:8 twist will stabilize heavy subsonic if you’re in the subsonic game but to say that it will stabilize a 175 FGMM round past 800 yards better than a 1:12 is absolute horshit and I don’t care what Todd says, he’s a salesman first.
If the OP can shoot 3 bullets in the same hole and then 4th and 5th shot are way off it’s much more likely that the issue is with the scope or base than it is because of the twist rate.
Any 308 put together right, should be able to do 1moa 5 rounds with FGMM 168 or 175. If it’s not even close, then the issue lies with the gun, scope or shooter and it’s not something that will get solved with load development.
The 1:8 twist will stabilize heavy subsonic if you’re in the subsonic game but to say that it will stabilize a 175 FGMM round past 800 yards better than a 1:12 is absolute horshit and I don’t care what Todd says, he’s a salesman first.
If the OP can shoot 3 bullets in the same hole and then 4th and 5th shot are way off it’s much more likely that the issue is with the scope or base than it is because of the twist rate.
Any 308 put together right, should be able to do 1moa 5 rounds with FGMM 168 or 175. If it’s not even close, then the issue lies with the gun, scope or shooter and it’s not something that will get solved with load development.
Looking at the target the OP posted he notes that it was the 2nd and 5th rounds that were flyers. He didn't put three in one hole and then have things go to crap.
I'm thinking it is a shooter issue more so than the gun.
I’m having a difficult time understanding what you’re trying to say. Are you talking about the Colt 901 by chance?
Could be the shooter for sure but when I had my wandering zero issue with my scope it was really similar. I could drill 3 bullets in a cloverleaf and then the next one would barely be on paper and then next one would be back to the group. Drove me absolutely crazy thinking it was my trigger pull, the muzzle device, action screws, my load, my scale drifting, my rail, etc. Just ended up being the scope which I was stupid not to check first by swapping with my trustworthy Cronus.
I would also add the budget Burris XTR II 1-8 FFP is made by LOW and will handle a AR10 and has mil MAD turrets.
I thought the Viper PST Gen 2 was made in Japan, but apparently it's Philippines.. Mounted one up this weekend and had same results. 2.5 MOA with Hornady Match 168gn all the way to 4.8 MOA with Winchester 149gn M80 Ball. The NF NX8 I just bought was at my front door when I got home from shooting. Plan to mount it up and try again next weekend.
Your guns not trash, your trash!
Im kidding. I did not mean that at all.
First question, when you say its a POF, im just gonna verify that its NOT Pakistani ordnance factory, right?
Ok but for real though, POF has been known to let some duds slip through time and again, at least thats what I would hear in my time at the gun store i used to work at. Honest advice, unless you like playing dress up with your guns and trying every different optic imaginable for fun, as I, and some others sometimes do, id sell it back to the dealer you bought it from so you dont have the guilt of selling someone a screwed up gun.
You wont get what you paid for it, but if you explain it to the dealer theyll probably give you a good percentage of the price back. If you bought it used from someone, still take it to a dealer and just get rid of it. You can disclose to them that it wont group, bc moat dealers just assume none of their customers really know how to shoot and buy it anyways, and if they test it and find it does have problems, itll be alot easier for then to make do with it than it will be for johnny civilian who thinks his gun might be a dud.
Hope you can find a better rifle to replace it with. Let us know what happens
There might be something in this post,
I was getting shitty groups in my MWS on day and when i got home found out the mount was loose. not sure how what happened there but it solved the issue. I would check the mount and optic to see if everything is solid and if so, maybe pull one of your optics thats on your bolt guns to see if you can narrow down the issue.
While the 1:8 seems a little odd, I don't think its should be trowing shots almost a half a foot at 100 yard.
