M118 LR USMC vs Army

[Zigjib]

G'day;

I have a question about M118LR;

I have data information for both the M118LR and the Mk316 from a couple of different sources but the data isn't consistent and i'm wondering if the US Army and USMC, whilst both using M118 LR, was it varied and loaded for each branch differently?

USMC data says the M40A5 should be around 2600fps for M118LR. Dope offered up by a couple of guys i know hovers between 2575 and 2615 fps
SD/ES sits between 12 and 25 fps according to these sources.

US Army bloke i know though, says that his M24 was 2720fps with the M118LR and an SD of 8 fps and their rifles all hovered around this MV.

They both say the box says M118 LR and not Mk316.

Looking at info on the internet, RL15 loads varied from low 43s to high 44s grains for M118 LR but even in forums people are reporting varied MVs. The manual for the M40A5 states 2670fps which doesn't correspond with anything else and doesn't match dope cards.

Trying to clone the loads, I have a node at 2680 fps with Varget which is damn close to the Manuals MV. I also have a node at 2615 fps with H4895 which is close to the 2600 fps of most info out there.

Mk 316 Mod 0 is 41.75gr according to the spec sheet, but a mate of mine pulled a bullet for me and found 43gr in there?

Ack powder changed for the M118 LR over it's life, but that's a pretty big difference between what USMC states is their MV vs what the Army is using.

Can anyone shed some advice on why there's so much variation in results?

Thanks

Carso

 

[Rob01]

Different lots of ammo and different barrels. Don't worry about what they say they get and worry about what works in your rifle.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

M118 LR sucks dude. Squaded with a special Boi shooting a mk22 with that ammo, flyers all over the place it shot like shit and wasn't the gun. Wasn't never impressed shooting it out of our m24s and sr25s.

FGMM 175 puts it to shame.

There are a thousand better load combos out there than this shit, trying to clone it be like cloning a kia soul.

 

[Zigjib]

M118 LR sucks dude. Squaded with a special Boi shooting a mk22 with that ammo, flyers all over the place it shot like shit and wasn't the gun. Wasn't never impressed shooting it out of our m24s and sr25s.

FGMM 175 puts it to shame.

There are a thousand better load combos out there than this shit, trying to clone it be like cloning a kia soul.

It's not so much wanting to clone it (though i have and it goes well enough) but i'm trying to understand why there's so much variation in information?

 

[Zigjib]

Different lots of ammo and different barrels. Don't worry about what they say they get and worry about what works in your rifle.

i'm not so much wondering if it'll work in my gun as i've cloned the load and it works well, but there's so many different reported MV's. 100 fps is a pretty sizeable jump in MV just from a different chamber.

 

[Huskydriver]

i'm not so much wondering if it'll work in my gun as i've cloned the load and it works well, but there's so many different reported MV's. 100 fps is a pretty sizeable jump in MV just from a different chamber.

Not really.... That's the difference from a guy giving you data in Jan at sea level vs a guy at ft Carson in July....

The lot speeds are always changing a bit and you are not getting apples to apples

 

[msgriff]

Here's some images I saved some time ago when I went down a similar path. Although it doesn't necessarily answer your questions, it might be interesting nevertheless.

 

[diggler1833]

Not really.... That's the difference from a guy giving you data in Jan at sea level vs a guy at ft Carson in July....

The lot speeds are always changing a bit and you are not getting apples to apples

+1, especially if Reloader 15 was used. That stuff is about as temperature sensitive as you're going to find in an extruded powder.

That and the quality of LC LR brass wasn't exactly going to keep up with decent commercial stuff either. I have 500 pieces of the stuff, and a random sample of just 10 showed an ES of .9gr H2O capacity. There were actually two ranges of empty case weight too...about 2.5gr apart.

 

[Rob01]

i'm not so much wondering if it'll work in my gun as i've cloned the load and it works well, but there's so many different reported MV's. 100 fps is a pretty sizeable jump in MV just from a different chamber.

Yup not really as mentioned. Different lots and temps and barrels etc. I have seen factory match ammo lots vary 80fps between lots in the same barrel and temps. I think you are getting too concerned about something that neither matters or is an issue.

 

[Zigjib]

Yup not really as mentioned. Different lots and temps and barrels etc. I have seen factory match ammo lots vary 80fps between lots in the same barrel and temps. I think you are getting too concerned about something that neither matters or is an issue.

I'd not say i'm overly concerned, just wondering if the different branches have different load specifications for their derivative of M118LR and if that could explain why one branch with a longer barrel has a lower MV than a different branch with a shorter barrel by over 100fps.

Seems odd as we arent talking an individual weapon, we are talking organisational doctrine for a MV. I'd expect variation from one rifle to another but to be 100fps out doctrinally is pretty wild.

 

[Zigjib]

+1, especially if Reloader 15 was used. That stuff is about as temperature sensitive as you're going to find in an extruded powder.

That and the quality of LC LR brass wasn't exactly going to keep up with decent commercial stuff either. I have 500 pieces of the stuff, and a random sample of just 10 showed an ES of .9gr H2O capacity. There were actually two ranges of empty case weight too...about 2.5gr apart.

it's probably not likely that different average MV's were specced in this sort of extreme environments for the doctrinal MV of a weapon/cartridge combination.

it'd explain the different between 2 different individual experiences though

 

[Huskydriver]

I'd not say i'm overly concerned, just wondering if the different branches have different load specifications for their derivative of M118LR and if that could explain why one branch with a longer barrel has a lower MV than a different branch with a shorter barrel by over 100fps.

Seems odd as we arent talking an individual weapon, we are talking organisational doctrine for a MV. I'd expect variation from one rifle to another but to be 100fps out doctrinally is pretty wild.

Not at all and is something unless you did that job or shoot "long range" a ton you might not understand and I am not criticizing you directly. It looks like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how that data is employed.

The advertised mv is the starting place. Every shooter is responsible for knowing the dope on their rifle at any given temperature and altitude.

That is why dope is called dope.... Data observed from a previous engagement. It's not the whole army or marines data .. it's your data for you and your rifle and it's how both branches help the shooter raise the prob of a first round hit.

Any time we would go anywhere guess what... You check zero and check dope for the environmentals. Just because the field manual says the mv is x and drop to 800 is y doesn't mean you going to get a first round hit....it's a guide but not an absolute... I have seen dope differences between other rifles in the same platoon that could cause a miss if you didn't have the rifle dope for your eye and that rifle....

Wtf cares what some random m40 mv was vs some random m24 at some unknown environmentals was for each.... I don't see how that even matters to anything

 

[Zigjib]

Not at all and is something unless you did that job or shoot "long range" a ton you might not understand and I am not criticizing you directly. It looks like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how that data is employed.

The advertised mv is the starting place. Every shooter is responsible for knowing the dope on their rifle at any given temperature and altitude.

That is why dope is called dope.... Data observed from a previous engagement. It's not the whole army or marines data .. it's your data for you and your rifle and it's how both branches help the shooter raise the prob of a first round hit.

Any time we would go anywhere guess what... You check zero and check dope for the environmentals. Just because the field manual says the mv is x and drop to 800 is y doesn't mean you going to get a first round hit....it's a guide but not an absolute... I have seen dope differences between other rifles in the same platoon that could choose a miss if you didn't have the rifle dope for your eye and that rifle....

Wtf cares what done random m40 mv was vs some random m24 at some unknown environmentaka was for each.... I don't see how that even matters

No i understand all that.

Gathering dope is fine to true vs what the manual says, but if we follow that to it's extreme, then why provide a MV in the manual at all? Because we need a starting point right? So you'd choose a starting point that on average would be the closest to where the MV is going to be. It does seem however that older doctrine states slower MV and the temp sensitivity of older powders to avoid over pressure in hot climates but 2680 is still up there for an average.

If you haven't experimented much with reloading and OBT, there's different nodes that are achievable with the use of different powders for barrel time, so some of the variation could be different powders (eg, i can hit 2680 with Varget but with H4895 it's a terrible load but 2600fps is quite good with H4895 and turns 2680 into a stinker).

so i was looking for hard information, if it exists, for why there's so much variation in doctrine, vs "life is full of mysteries"

 

[Huskydriver]

No i understand all that.

Gathering dope is fine to true vs what the manual says, but if we follow that to it's extreme, then why provide a MV in the manual at all? Because we need a starting point right? So you'd choose a starting point that on average would be the closest to where the MV is going to be. It does seem however that older doctrine states slower MV and the temp sensitivity of older powders to avoid over pressure in hot climates but 2680 is still up there for an average.

If you haven't experimented much with reloading and OBT, there's different nodes that are achievable with the use of different powders for barrel time, so some of the variation could be different powders (eg, i can hit 2680 with Varget but with H4895 it's a terrible load but 2600fps is quite good with H4895 and turns 2680 into a stinker).

so i was looking for hard information, if it exists, for why there's so much variation in doctrine, vs "life is full of mysteries"

You don't understand. The military has to write a manual for people that they have to assume have 0 understanding of anything from off the street and let's be honest myself included... Are not Harvard bound scholar students.....


Also the military is notoriously slow too update the tm's to reflect current best practices....

Also the military doesn't necessarily care where the best node is......

 

[Zigjib]

You don't understand. The military has to write a manual for people that they have to assume have 0 understanding of anything from off the street and let's be honest myself included... Are not Harvard bound scholar students.....


Also the military is notoriously slow too update the tm's to reflect current best practices....

Also the military doesn't necessarily care where the best node is......

Ah i think i understand where you're confusion is coming from;

The manual states a MV that'll be close to where the average MV should be based on the barrel length and the charge weight of the cartridge. These MV's are usually attained in a controlled environment and are set at an average temp/altitude etc etc. That's how the doctrine is written. There'll be real world differences in exact MV for individual rifles which will vary slightly but across the rifles, in the same test conditions, the MV should average out at or close to what the manual states.

Once the rifle/cartridge combination is bought out of those controlled environmental conditions, there's going to be environmental variation which is why Dope is important. That says the SPECIFIC rifle's MV and the bullets drop in those SPECIFIC environmentals, vs an average in a controlled environment.

So the doctrinal variation is what i'm interested in.

Is it just powder type and charge? Was this recorded anywhere? Is M118LR a generic load across all branches?

 

[Xcount]

There was only one NSN but there were at least 3 powder spec changes to M118LR and with in each change there were many different lots and sub-lots. Like it has been said there are too many variables to compare what one rifle in the Army gets vs. what one rifle in the USMC gets. The original spec was 2580fps +/- 30fps at 78ft from the muzzle. That was probably tested in a M24 and M40A1.

Nobody here is confused. You should google your question and get the answer you want.

 

[Zigjib]

There was only one NSN but there were at least 3 powder spec changes to M118LR and with in each change there were many different lots and sub-lots. Like it has been said there are too many variables to compare what one rifle in the Army gets vs. what one rifle in the USMC gets. The original spec was 2580fps +/- 30fps at 78ft from the muzzle. That was probably tested in a M24 and M40A1.

Nobody here is confused. You should google your question and get the answer you want.

Yes, the powder type charge would probably equate for most of the variation (I do like to think the military would load close to a node for their rifles) So different powders having different burn rates and different barrel times would give different mvs.

To clarify it wasn't 1 m24 vs 1 m40.

It was the m40a3 and the m40a5 manuals that gave 2 different MVs and anecdotal information from an Army member prior to moving to the 300wm that their m24s were sitting at the 2700+ fps range. He said this was the norm

This is a sizeable jump in MV, so it lead me to wonder if different branches load to a different spec for 'M118LR" given that its known to have changed a lot over its life

 

[Huskydriver]

Yes, the powder type charge would probably equate for most of the variation (I do like to think the military would load close to a node for their rifles) So different powders having different burn rates and different barrel times would give different mvs.

To clarify it wasn't 1 m24 vs 1 m40.

It was the m40a3 and the m40a5 manuals that gave 2 different MVs and anecdotal information from an Army member prior to moving to the 300wm that their m24s were sitting at the 2700+ fps range. He said this was the norm

This is a sizeable jump in MV, so it lead me to wonder if different branches load to a different spec for 'M118LR" given that its known to have changed a lot over its life

Well first off I challenge that "nodes" actually exist but you do you. But no there wasn't a USMC spec for m118lr vs Army

This thread needs @reubenski or @JustSendit

 

[Zigjib]

There was only one NSN but there were at least 3 powder spec changes to M118LR and with in each change there were many different lots and sub-lots. Like it has been said there are too many variables to compare what one rifle in the Army gets vs. what one rifle in the USMC gets. The original spec was 2580fps +/- 30fps at 78ft from the muzzle. That was probably tested in a M24 and M40A1.

Nobody here is confused. You should google your question and get the answer you want.

Well first off I challenge that "nodes" actually exist but you do you. But no there wasn't a USMC spec for m118lr vs Army

This thread needs @reubenski or @JustSendit

Ah, that answers that.

Cheers mate

 

[Terry Cross]

G'day;

I have a question about M118LR;

I have data information for both the M118LR and the Mk316 from a couple of different sources but the data isn't consistent and i'm wondering if the US Army and USMC, whilst both using M118 LR, was it varied and loaded for each branch differently?

USMC data says the M40A5 should be around 2600fps for M118LR. Dope offered up by a couple of guys i know hovers between 2575 and 2615 fps
SD/ES sits between 12 and 25 fps according to these sources.

US Army bloke i know though, says that his M24 was 2720fps with the M118LR and an SD of 8 fps and their rifles all hovered around this MV.

They both say the box says M118 LR and not Mk316.

Looking at info on the internet, RL15 loads varied from low 43s to high 44s grains for M118 LR but even in forums people are reporting varied MVs. The manual for the M40A5 states 2670fps which doesn't correspond with anything else and doesn't match dope cards.

Trying to clone the loads, I have a node at 2680 fps with Varget which is damn close to the Manuals MV. I also have a node at 2615 fps with H4895 which is close to the 2600 fps of most info out there.

Mk 316 Mod 0 is 41.75gr according to the spec sheet, but a mate of mine pulled a bullet for me and found 43gr in there?

Ack powder changed for the M118 LR over it's life, but that's a pretty big difference between what USMC states is their MV vs what the Army is using.

Can anyone shed some advice on why there's so much variation in results?

Thanks

Carso

I have read your posts more than once and still not sure exactly what you are asking within the context of M118LR vs Mk316.
They are two completely different loads from different lines.

also

What "spec sheet" are you referencing?

The Alpha Bravo uses a low flash, low temp sensitivity powder. (Not an off the shelf powder) I believe it is sourced from General Dynamics / St. Marks out of Florida

Regarding the M118LR, there has been more than one iteration of it with slight tweaks but all still the same basic performance specs and definitely not in the same league as AB39.

There are no branch specific variants of M118LR although some branches/units have gotten screwed over by getting tons of one lot and not being allowed to move to anything different until their existing inventory was depleted which could take years.

./

PS: Sorry for the rambling edits to this post. Just rolled in, sleep deprived and even stupider than usual.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I'd not say i'm overly concerned, just wondering if the different branches have different load specifications for their derivative of M118LR and if that could explain why one branch with a longer barrel has a lower MV than a different branch with a shorter barrel by over 100fps.

Seems odd as we arent talking an individual weapon, we are talking organisational doctrine for a MV. I'd expect variation from one rifle to another but to be 100fps out doctrinally is pretty wild.

Is this from your extensive experience working within DOD? Specifically one of the ordinance branches or within one of the sniper schoolhouses?

 

[Zigjib]

Is this from your extensive experience working within DOD? Specifically one of the ordinance branches or within one of the sniper schoolhouses?

Maybe?

If there's something specific you'd like to know about i'll do my best to answer

 

[Zigjib]

I have read your posts more than once and still not sure exactly what you are asking within the context of M118LR vs Mk316.
They are two completely different loads from different lines.

also

What "spec sheet" are you referencing?

The Alpha Bravo uses a low flash, low temp sensitivity powder. (Not an off the shelf powder) I believe it is sourced from General Dynamics / St. Marks out of Florida

Regarding the M118LR, there has been more than one iteration of it with slight tweaks but all still the same basic performance specs and definitely not in the same league as AB39.

There are no branch specific variants of M118LR although some branches/units have gotten screwed over by getting tons of one lot and not being allowed to move to anything different until their existing inventory was depleted which could take years.

./

PS: Sorry for the rambling edits to this post. Just rolled in, sleep deprived and even stupider than usual.

"PS: Sorry for the rambling edits to this post. Just rolled in, sleep deprived and even stupider than usual." - No issue mate, it reads fine.

The question was about whether there was branch specific loads for M118LR, but you answered that, so thankyou. That was basically all i wanted to know.

Doctrine states 2670 or 2680fps, most dope for M40 i've seen sits around 2600fps.
M24 doctrine (that i have) only specifies M118SB, not LR which stats an MV of 2550fps but doesn't specify the distance from the muzzle, but from all information online it seems that 2600 is the go to for M118LR out of the M24. If the chrono is forward, that'd make up for the 50fps.
But then I hit a bloke who claims that all their m24s were over 2700fps?

That's my data, just wanted to know if there were branch specific loads of the M118LR that could explain the difference away.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Maybe?

If there's something specific you'd like to know about i'll do my best to answer

You are making a bunch of assumptive statements about how things work in these communities that are so far from reality it would lead someone to belive you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[sandwarrior]

"PS: Sorry for the rambling edits to this post. Just rolled in, sleep deprived and even stupider than usual." - No issue mate, it reads fine.

The question was about whether there was branch specific loads for M118LR, but you answered that, so thankyou. That was basically all i wanted to know.

Doctrine states 2670 or 2680fps, most dope for M40 i've seen sits around 2600fps.
M24 doctrine (that i have) only specifies M118SB, not LR which stats an MV of 2550fps but doesn't specify the distance from the muzzle, but from all information online it seems that 2600 is the go to for M118LR out of the M24. If the chrono is forward, that'd make up for the 50fps.
But then I hit a bloke who claims that all their m24s were over 2700fps?

That's my data, just wanted to know if there were branch specific loads of the M118LR that could explain the difference away.

No, there are no differences between the same nomenclature ammo. Each branch goes to their source to get it. HOWEVER, over time the civilian factories that produce ammunition get/have permission to vary the loads based on their testing. As long as it falls within their basic parameters (the contract). Which isn't always good.
The worst case of this was the 5.56 during Viet Nam. Contractors couldn't get enough 4198, which was what was called for, so they used Win 748, which is dirty and more temp sensitive. Even though M118LR is supposed to have higher standards, it has still been messed with. Some better, some worse.

Added: I thought I should mention that the various Lots is where you'll find the changes.

Added II: Washington Bureaucracy sometimes has a level of disconnect that is unbelievable with the military.

 

[Terry Cross]

......
The worst case of this was the 5.56 during Viet Nam. Contractors couldn't get enough 4198, which was what was called for, so they used Win 748, which is dirty and more temp sensitive. Even though M118LR is supposed to have higher standards, it has still been messed with. Some better, some worse.

.......

Added II: Washington Bureaucracy sometimes has a level of disconnect and corruption that is unbelievable with the military.

I added the red text.

We had heard it was a cannister ball powder close to BLC2 /Ball2.
Either way the shit had way too much calcium carbonate stabilizing additive in the blend and it would actually build up in the gas system and sabotage the new M16s. Of course the rifle took all the blame. . . .

Common story going around at one point that Gen Westmoreland had ties to a supplier for some ammunition contracts that ran the 5.56, they knew there were issues with the propellant but went forward anyway because Cha Ching*.

*Disclaimer for the younger viewers: Cha Ching is neither a knock at the native Vietnamese nor an M1 Garand clip ejecting from an empty rifle. It is referring to $ that corrupt fucks want bad enough to compromise the safety of others.

 

[Zigjib]

You are making a bunch of assumptive statements about how things work in these communities that are so far from reality it would lead someone to belive you have no idea what you are talking about.

Cool, is there any particular assumptive statement I've made that is so far removed from reality it would lead someone to believe I have no idea what I'm talking about that you'd like to specifically highlight? Maybe I didn't articulate myself clearly enough, or maybe my version of reality differs from yours? Maybe it's a multi dimensional reality situation where our realities do actually exist at once?

You CAN just keep being pretentious.... either way, I DID get the answer I was looking for so.....

Your move champion

 

[Zigjib]

"No, there are no differences between the same nomenclature ammo. Each branch goes to their source to get it. "

Oof, thought I was all squared until you said that....

Does the USMC and Army have 2 different suppliers and is it possible that these 2 different suppliers are speccing the ammo differently resulting in the different MVs for each branch?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Cool, is there any particular assumptive statement I've made that is so far removed from reality it would lead someone to believe I have no idea what I'm talking about that you'd like to specifically highlight? Maybe I didn't articulate myself clearly enough, or maybe my version of reality differs from yours? Maybe it's a multi dimensional reality situation where our realities do actually exist at once?

You CAN just keep being pretentious.... either way, I DID get the answer I was looking for so.....

Your move champion

1. Seems odd as we arent talking an individual weapon, we are talking organisational doctrine for a MV. I'd expect variation from one rifle to another but to be 100fps out doctrinally is pretty wild.

2. it's probably not likely that different average MV's were specced in this sort of extreme environments for the doctrinal MV of a weapon/cartridge combination.

3.The manual states a MV that'll be close to where the average MV should be based on the barrel length and the charge weight of the cartridge. These MV's are usually attained in a controlled environment and are set at an average temp/altitude etc etc. That's how the doctrine is written. There'll be real world differences in exact MV for individual rifles which will vary slightly but across the rifles, in the same test conditions, the MV should average out at or close to what the manual states.

Once the rifle/cartridge combination is bought out of those controlled environmental conditions, there's going to be environmental variation which is why Dope is important. That says the SPECIFIC rifle's MV and the bullets drop in those SPECIFIC environmentals, vs an average in a controlled environment.

So the doctrinal variation is what i'm interested in.

Is it just powder type and charge? Was this recorded anywhere? Is M118LR a generic load across all branches?


Why are you so hung up on doctrine? Like who gives a fuck....people who lived this life sure aren't wasting oxygen worrying about shit that is irrelevant.

You sound like a virgin who never fucked, trying to explain to Peter North what he is doing wrong. The questions you are asking about a detailed and nuanced subject aren't even the right questions. Luckily for you guys like Terry will waste their valuable time placating Larpers and servants who live in places you can't even own guns.

You sound like a talker. Talkers make me thirsty.

 

[fdkay]

different powders at different times of production, different barrels, one a button rifled conventional six groove, the other a hammer forged with 5R rifling.
The difference in barrels alone will make a a big difference.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

MAREENS also get higher velocity after shoving all the grape flavored crayons down the barrel. Tighhhht

 

[Zigjib]

1. Seems odd as we arent talking an individual weapon, we are talking organisational doctrine for a MV. I'd expect variation from one rifle to another but to be 100fps out doctrinally is pretty wild.

2. it's probably not likely that different average MV's were specced in this sort of extreme environments for the doctrinal MV of a weapon/cartridge combination.

3.The manual states a MV that'll be close to where the average MV should be based on the barrel length and the charge weight of the cartridge. These MV's are usually attained in a controlled environment and are set at an average temp/altitude etc etc. That's how the doctrine is written. There'll be real world differences in exact MV for individual rifles which will vary slightly but across the rifles, in the same test conditions, the MV should average out at or close to what the manual states.

Once the rifle/cartridge combination is bought out of those controlled environmental conditions, there's going to be environmental variation which is why Dope is important. That says the SPECIFIC rifle's MV and the bullets drop in those SPECIFIC environmentals, vs an average in a controlled environment.

So the doctrinal variation is what i'm interested in.

Is it just powder type and charge? Was this recorded anywhere? Is M118LR a generic load across all branches?


Why are you so hung up on doctrine? Like who gives a fuck....people who lived this life sure aren't wasting oxygen worrying about shit that is irrelevant.

You sound like a virgin who never fucked, trying to explain to Peter North what he is doing wrong. The questions you are asking about a detailed and nuanced subject aren't even the right questions. Luckily for you guys like Terry will waste their valuable time placating Larpers and servants who live in places you can't even own guns.

You sound like a talker. Talkers make me thirsty.

Oooooooh! You're just a dickhead!

My bad, lol I thought I put up wrong info or didn't explain something properly.

 

[Rob01]

MAREENS also get higher velocity after shoving all the grape flavored crayons down the barrel. Tighhhht

Bullshit! Grape is is the best tasting so it doesn’t get wasted! Lol

 

[Frank Green]

The Alpha Bravo uses a low flash, low temp sensitivity powder. (Not an off the shelf powder) I believe it is sourced from General Dynamics / St. Marks out of Florida

To reiterate what Terry said above and I quote....

"The powder used in the AB ammo isn't available to the general public."

I've asked the question directly as we make the ammunition test barrels most of the time.

 

[Frank Green]

Another good example of powder.....this is several years back.

I won't name the ammo maker or powder or load etc... but got a pallet of 5k rounds of 308 match ammo. I myself took a 1k rounds of it. Stuff shot really good and the velocity was better than I expected.

So being the reloader guy I am and I was curious as to the powder and powder charge. When I pulled two rounds and weighed the powder and looked at it.... it wasn't Varget and it wasn't 4064.

So I called the ammo maker and talk to the guys in the ballistic lab. I asked if they could tell me what it was... (heck we make they're test barrels) and the guy said no problem. Give me the lot number. So I gave it to him. He said, "oh that lot." I said oh that lot what? He said that lot was loaded from a hybrid powder and told me the maker. Said they had a heck of a time getting it to shoot good etc... but he was glad it was shooting excellent thru my guns.

Again the powder loaded above isn't available to the general public.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Zigjib]

To reiterate what Terry said above and I quote....

"The powder used in the AB ammo isn't available to the general public."

I've asked the question directly as we make the ammunition test barrels most of the time.

That's pretty normal for factory ammo. Annoying as it can be.

Do you find much variation in MV? As in drastic swings in MV per above or is it pretty stable?

No stress if it's NDA'd

 

[Frank Green]

That's pretty normal for factory ammo. Annoying as it can be.

Do you find much variation in MV? As in drastic swings in MV per above or is it pretty normal.

No stress if it's NDA'd

I'll ping ya later...headed to the doc's office!

 

[Zigjib]

I'll ping ya later...headed to the doc's office!

Thanks mate, appreciate it

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

I'm getting 2702 with lapua brass with this load out of my m40a5. Shoots just as tight in winchester/fed brass but I never chronoed it with that brass. Shoots great out of all my clones. I think I loaded to 2.8" oal

 

[sandwarrior]

No, one supplier. Each goes through their supply chain to get it. Once it gets it's nomenclature, that's it.

added: 'Supply Chain' is the command within each branch that procures given weapons and ammo for that branch. You don't get M118LR 'with some extra'. You get M118LR that meets spec. A broader spec than most realize. Sometimes a powder or primer is used that seems to meet the spec. If reports come back from the field that a given lot isn't working, they do their best to pull it.

@Terry Cross Sometimes I wish I could put a like and a laugh on a post cuz what you said is right on.

 

[Zigjib]

No, one supplier. Each goes through their supply chain to get it. Once it gets it's nomenclature, that's it.

added: 'Supply Chain' is the command within each branch that procures given weapons and ammo for that branch. You don't get M118LR 'with some extra'. You get M118LR that meets spec. A broader spec than most realize. Sometimes a powder or primer is used that seems to meet the spec. If reports come back from the field that a given lot isn't working, they do their best to pull it.

@Terry Cross Sometimes I wish I could put a like and a laugh on a post cuz what you said is right on.

Ah got you! Sorry, makes sense, I just miss interpreted

Thanks for clearing that up bud

 

[gopherslayer]

I added the red text.

We had heard it was a cannister ball powder close to BLC2 /Ball2.
Either way the shit had way too much calcium carbonate stabilizing additive in the blend and it would actually build up in the gas system and sabotage the new M16s. Of course the rifle took all the blame. . . .

Common story going around at one point that Gen Westmoreland had ties to a supplier for some ammunition contracts that ran the 5.56, they knew there were issues with the propellant but went forward anyway because Cha Ching*.

*Disclaimer for the younger viewers: Cha Ching is neither a knock at the native Vietnamese nor an M1 Garand clip ejecting from an empty rifle. It is referring to $ that corrupt fucks want bad enough to compromise the safety of others.

No no no. Cha Ching was the sound a cash register made back in the day. Wasn’t when the total came up? I’m closing in on 50 and remember it. Young whipper snappers have no idea what a rotary dial phone was or a cash register let alone a typewriter.

 

[Haney]

No no no. Cha Ching was the sound a cash register made back in the day. Wasn’t when the total came up? I’m closing in on 50 and remember it. Young whipper snappers have no idea what a rotary dial phone was or a cash register let alone a typewriter.

Cha-Ching when an item was rung up . Like when I would pay a nickel a piece for 12 gauge shotgun shells at Old man Camp's hardware store .

 

[Frank Green]

Thanks mate, appreciate it

So as some have pointed out.... you have variables.

One is the ammo and lot to lot variations whatever those all are. Again the powder they might be using might not be available to you from the commercial market.

I've seen and have chronographed box ammo for 20 rounds that had extra velocity spreads of 60+ fps. Even seeing up to a 100fps is possible. Keep in mind...the barrel is a variable..... keep reading....

Then you have barrel variations. The ammo tested and being loaded is being tested in a ammunition test barrel. Those spec's for the barrel are held pretty good. I know...we make the test barrels.

Then you have the barrel that's on your gun and or what is being put on the spec. sniper rifles etc....what tolerance and spec's that that given barrel maker and or factory like Remington is making and holding they're dimensions to....is another variable. I can pretty much guarantee your going to see a large variable here vs the ammunition test barrels. Not just bore and groove dimensions but chamber dimensions. Yes there are min spec. chambers and what is called production spec chambers which can be +.002" bigger over Saami min spec.

Here is an example of some test data on 308win box match ammo. These are all 10 shot groups for 100 rounds fired out of an ammunition pressure test barrel that we made for the ammo maker....these are SD numbers per 10 rounds.

SD = 17, 10, 11, 19, 17, 16, 13, 15, 18, and 13. That's a average SD of 14.9. So your probably looking at an extreme spread average of velocity or about 30fps or a tad more than that. For box match ammo....it doesn't get any better than that most of the time. Keep in mind a 5 shot group for an average SD is going to be different than a 10 shot group let alone a 100 shots fired.

To start seeing a standard deviation under 10 your extreme spread in velocities are going to have be be under 20fps for a given group.

So not only is a barrel a variable with the chamber etc....but...

You also have to consider if the brass is new/virgin brass vs once fired brass. When you are checking velocities. Usually once fired brass will result in lower SDs. Not all the time but usually.

And.... is the barrel clean? When are you cleaning it in between the number of rounds fired? How good are you cleaning it?

 

[ma smith]

And.... is the barrel clean? When are you cleaning it in between the number of rounds fired? How good are you cleaning it?

IIRC some .mil trainers were talking about how 'blowing primers' meant either hot lot of ammo, or you were reaching the cleaning interval
That was 300 Norma, but still was kind of funny.

 

[Frank Green]

IIRC some .mil trainers were talking about how 'blowing primers' meant either hot lot of ammo, or you were reaching the cleaning interval
That was 300 Norma, but still was kind of funny.

That is funny but on the other hand it's not funny!

 

[Frank Green]

To sum up my previous post as I found some other data.

They took once fired brass and shot forty seven 5 shot groups. Yes a total of 235 rounds fired. The SD's dropped to 9.4 for an average.

So the fired brass does make a difference.

Don't forget these are in controlled conditions as well. Most of us are out shooting in 40 degree weather or 95 degree weather etc...

 

[Zigjib]

To sum up my previous post as I found some other data.

They took once fired brass and shot forty seven 5 shot groups. Yes a total of 235 rounds fired. The SD's dropped to 9.4 for an average.

So the fired brass does make a difference.

Don't forget these are in controlled conditions as well. Most of us are out shooting in 40 degree weather or 95 degree weather etc...

Thanks for the info and your time mate

Appreciate it

 

[Zigjib]

So as some have pointed out.... you have variables.

One is the ammo and lot to lot variations whatever those all are. Again the powder they might be using might not be available to you from the commercial market.

I've seen and have chronographed box ammo for 20 rounds that had extra velocity spreads of 60+ fps. Even seeing up to a 100fps is possible. Keep in mind...the barrel is a variable..... keep reading....

Then you have barrel variations. The ammo tested and being loaded is being tested in a ammunition test barrel. Those spec's for the barrel are held pretty good. I know...we make the test barrels.

Then you have the barrel that's on your gun and or what is being put on the spec. sniper rifles etc....what tolerance and spec's that that given barrel maker and or factory like Remington is making and holding they're dimensions to....is another variable. I can pretty much guarantee your going to see a large variable here vs the ammunition test barrels. Not just bore and groove dimensions but chamber dimensions. Yes there are min spec. chambers and what is called production spec chambers which can be +.002" bigger over Saami min spec.

Here is an example of some test data on 308win box match ammo. These are all 10 shot groups for 100 rounds fired out of an ammunition pressure test barrel that we made for the ammo maker....these are SD numbers per 10 rounds.

SD = 17, 10, 11, 19, 17, 16, 13, 15, 18, and 13. That's a average SD of 14.9. So your probably looking at an extreme spread average of velocity or about 30fps or a tad more than that. For box match ammo....it doesn't get any better than that most of the time. Keep in mind a 5 shot group for an average SD is going to be different than a 10 shot group let alone a 100 shots fired.

To start seeing a standard deviation under 10 your extreme spread in velocities are going to have be be under 20fps for a given group.

So not only is a barrel a variable with the chamber etc....but...

You also have to consider if the brass is new/virgin brass vs once fired brass. When you are checking velocities. Usually once fired brass will result in lower SDs. Not all the time but usually.

And.... is the barrel clean? When are you cleaning it in between the number of rounds fired? How good are you cleaning it?

This is solid info. Thanks mate

 

[jthor]

Gotta say I don’t like 118LR. Waiting for our allotment to be changed to mk316.

To help with accuracy you do need to break the tar seal in it by seating the bullet an extra 10 thou.
I’m getting about 2700 fps out of the current can of 118lr I have out of a 26” tube