Match grade barrel fouling after 40rds?

[AustinCar32]

Hello, I recently purchased my first "match grade" barrel to get more involved in long range shooting/hunting and I am having trouble understanding what is going on here.

I read a lot of people say they dont clean their barrels for 400+ rounds before accuracy drops off, and cleaning too frequently will wear out the barrel. Other reputable sources say clean every 30-40 rounds.

After i clean this barrel, i fire a few fouler shots. Rounds #3-30 shoot exceptionally well (sub 1/2moa 5-shots). Rounds #30-40 start creeping up velocity, and by round #40 i have gained 80fps and start getting pressure signs, the groups open up significantly

Should I consider the possibility that this barrel does not settle in with enough fouling until 40rds, try a lighter charge to get back to my velocity node, and then hopefully the velocity remains stable for hundreds of rounds before cleaning?

Or should i accept that this barrel requires cleaning every 40 rounds, and continue on. Thanks in advance!

24" OMR barrel ~160rds through it
6.5 prc
143gr ELDX 58.3gr H1000 .035 off lands

 

[Thump_rrr]

Have you tried looking to see if you have a carbon ring in the chamber?
Is your brass trimmed to proper length?
I go about 150 rounds between cleanings.
I clean the carbon ring frequently because it is easy to do at the end of the day.

 

[whatsupdoc]

"they dont clean their barrels for 400+ rounds before accuracy drops off, and cleaning too frequently will wear out the barrel"

Both statements are retarded.

 

[Baron23]

I read a lot of people say they dont clean their barrels for 400+ rounds before accuracy drops off, and cleaning too frequently will wear out the barrel.

A lot of people do stupid things and say stupid things.

Sorry, I don't have any idea why you are jumping up 80 fps by 40 rounds. That's a lot of speed up on not a lot of rounds.

I don't know anything about OMR but note that all they say is (underline added by me) "Our barrels are manufactured in-house. We start with a match grade blank, and chamber it to SAAMI specs"

Do they drill and rifle the blanks themselves??? The way that they word it, it doesn't immediately sound like it to me. Doesn't mean they aren't...but if they are then why not say so and show some pics of gun drill and rifling machines?

So, I'm wondering...button cut, single cut, 4 groove/5R/something else, and do you know what twist rate is in the rifling of this 6.5 PRC?

 

[AustinCar32]

Have you tried looking to see if you have a carbon ring in the chamber?
Is your brass trimmed to proper length?
I go about 150 rounds between cleanings.
I clean the carbon ring frequently because it is easy to do at the end of the day.

I have not, will be ordering a borescope soon. I read about carbon rings and from what I have gathered, its extremely rare for a carbon ring to form so quickly?

I trim brass every firing, to 2.020. Spec is 2.030 - 2.015

 

[oldrifleman]

Ok, the term Match grade barrel is triwn around a lot and is more of a buzz word to get sales. Who made the blank ( Bartlein, Proof, CRB, Joe’s barrel and brew) and who finished it ( chambered and threaded it).

 

[oldrifleman]

Skip the Bore scope at this point, it will simply drive you crazy!

 

[AustinCar32]

A lot of people do stupid things and say stupid things.

Sorry, I don't have any idea why you are jumping up 80 fps by 40 rounds. That's a lot of speed up on not a lot of rounds.

I don't know anything about OMR but note that all they say is (underline added by me) "Our barrels are manufactured in-house. We start with a match grade blank, and chamber it to SAAMI specs"

Do they drill and rifle the blanks themselves??? The way that they word it, it doesn't immediately sound like it to me. Doesn't mean they aren't...but if they are then why not say so and show some pics of gun drill and rifling machines?

So, I'm wondering...button cut, single cut, 4 groove/5R/something else, and do you know what twist rate is in the rifling of this 6.5 PRC?

Im not sure if OMR does that work in-house or not. I bought the barrel simply because a lot of hunters in my area use them with great success, and they are one of few options who offer the "Howage" barrel nut.

It is a 1:8 twist rate

 

[AustinCar32]

Skip the Bore scope at this point, it will simply drive you crazy!

I wouldn't know what to look for anyways!

 

[oldrifleman]

I wouldn't know what to look for anyways!

Exactly

 

[6brshooter]

80fps increase is alot. How many rds on barrel? That barrel would drive me nuts.

 

[AustinCar32]

It now has 160 rounds through it. I have cleaned it and had the same results 3x now. I am tempted to back off the charge, not clean it yet, and see if the velocity continues to climb after 40+. As of now, i stop shooting once it hits pressure around 40rds.

Or, if it turns out i HAVE to clean it every 40 rounds, so be it. I just want to know the best option here to keep it shooting as well as it does.

 

[oldrifleman]

Honestly, a barrel can take 150-250 rounds to break in. If it still does this after 200 I would be thinking snout complaining and getting a true quality barrel ( think Craddock RTR, WOA, PRI Douglas,Proof).

 

[AustinCar32]

Honestly, a barrel can take 150-250 rounds to break in. If it still does this after 200 I would be thinking snout complaining and getting a true quality barrel ( think Craddock RTR, WOA, PRI Douglas,Proof).

Thank you, that was one of my thoughts as well. I have not experienced "barrel speed up" yet either so maybe this barrel does need more time. The same load shoots the same velocity now as it did when i first fired this rifle (if its clean of course).

 

[Barelstroker]

Thank you, that was one of my thoughts as well. I have not experienced "barrel speed up" yet either so maybe this barrel does need more time. The same load shoots the same velocity now as it did when i first fired this rifle (if its clean of course).

If I may, how long does it take you to shoot these 40 rounds?
What are the barrel dimensions?
You give the barrel length but not the muzzle diameter & etc.

 

[waveslayer]

Try smoothing out the fire cracking with Bore past. I think Litz did a video on it. That might be your problem

 

[ShtrRdy]

Aside from the things that have been mentioned, when I've had trouble with a barrel fouling after a few dozen rounds it's been because of the powder. Either the powder I used was overly dirty or I wasn't getting the pressure up to where the powder burned most efficiently.

H1000 is viewed as a relatively clean powder. Is the load you're using on the low side?

 

[Thump_rrr]

Try smoothing out the fire cracking with Bore past. I think Litz did a video on it. That might be your problem

Will there be fire cracking on a barrel that new?

 

[6brshooter]

Aside from the things that have been mentioned, when I've had trouble with a barrel fouling after a few dozen rounds it's been because of the powder. Either the powder I used was overly dirty or I wasn't getting the pressure up to where the powder burned most efficiently.

H1000 is viewed as a relatively clean powder. Is the load you're using on the low side?

That is a upper end load in my barrel, [email protected]. Not max pressure, but close to book max, and I didn't have more than 1-1.5gr until I got heavier bolt lift. Can't speak to ops load, but it isn't super mild.

 

[6brshooter]

Will there be fire cracking on a barrel that new?

Depending on rate of fire, contour, and barrel steel quality....it's entirely possible. It's burning 58+gr every shot, it ain't a 29.xgr 6br, lol. Op, are you letting next rd to be fired sit in a hot chamber very long(10+ sec)?

 

[Ronin22]

Exactly

Ain't hard to get a borescope, google image search "carbon ring" and then see if one is present in the chamber. After that there is an array of other stupid simple diagnostic uses for the borescope.

 

[oldrifleman]

No, there are tons of of things out there that show all kinds of icky things. But interpreting what you see is really tough. He knows he has a problem, be it bore related or ammunition related, his rifle fouls really easily. One question I guess I would pose, is the fouling carbon related ( comes out black) or copper related ( shows up as green/Blue)? If it is really black then for some reason your ammunition may be an issue. If green then there is roughness that is damaging the bullet. If black try shooting some match ammo ( federal gold medal or equivalent) and see if the problem continues.
If barrel yeah run some bore paste through, brush it a bit with bore cleaner and repeat. That should be enough to smooth out a burr or two.
Bore scopes in the hands of an experienced smith can help diagnose issues. In the hands of a frustrated average shooter they show images that have everyone screaming “Witch”.

 

[AustinCar32]

If I may, how long does it take you to shoot these 40 rounds?
What are the barrel dimensions?
You give the barrel length but not the muzzle diameter & etc.

5 shot groups about 30 seconds apart, then 15 minute cool down between groups, ambient temps have been around 40 degrees.

The barrel is a magnum taper, 1" at the muzzle but it is a carbon wrapped barrel.

 

[AustinCar32]

Aside from the things that have been mentioned, when I've had trouble with a barrel fouling after a few dozen rounds it's been because of the powder. Either the powder I used was overly dirty or I wasn't getting the pressure up to where the powder burned most efficiently.

H1000 is viewed as a relatively clean powder. Is the load you're using on the low side?

The only other powder i have tried so far is H4831sc, but I was getting pressure at a much lower velocity so i switched to H1000. Im loading to 58.3gr, book max is 59.0gr.

Maybe I could try loading the H1000 with a magnum primer and see if results change

 

[Baron23]

Try smoothing out the fire cracking with Bore past. I think Litz did a video on it. That might be your problem

Fire cracking after only 160 rounds.....ah, really?

 

[AustinCar32]

Depending on rate of fire, contour, and barrel steel quality....it's entirely possible. It's burning 58+gr every shot, it ain't a 29.xgr 6br, lol. Op, are you letting next rd to be fired sit in a hot chamber very long(10+ sec)?

No im not, i am very mindful about that and close the bolt after I am on target ready to shoot. After 40 rounds have been through it, i can let the gun sit overnight and the next day the velocity is still higher and showing pressure until its cleaned.

 

[Baron23]

Yes, don't get a bore scope.....then you can be just like this

With a bore scope...yeah, you might well come on the board in a panic about nothing after misinterpreting what you are seeing. But you will then learn and going forward find that a bore scope is a VERY useful tool to evaluate cleaning and helping to identify any defect/issue in the barrel...like a carbon ring.

 

[Ronin22]

No, there are tons of of things out there that show all kinds of icky things. But interpreting what you see is really tough. He knows he has a problem, be it bore related or ammunition related, his rifle fouls really easily. One question I guess I would pose, is the fouling carbon related ( comes out black) or copper related ( shows up as green/Blue)? If it is really black then for some reason your ammunition may be an issue. If green then there is roughness that is damaging the bullet. If black try shooting some match ammo ( federal gold medal or equivalent) and see if the problem continues.
If barrel yeah run some bore paste through, brush it a bit with bore cleaner and repeat. That should be enough to smooth out a burr or two.
Bore scopes in the hands of an experienced smith can help diagnose issues. In the hands of a frustrated average shooter they show images that have everyone screaming “Witch”.

Its like anything else. You learn. Anyone capable of learning can learn bore conditions with a borescope especially with all the forum help and google. If we applied this fudd dogmatic approach to everything, who would ever learn anything? We should certainly tell people not to handload, or even shoot if they can't understand ballistics or diagnose groups. Make sense?

Here's some simple things that can be done with no expert level of use:

- See if you even need to trim your brass. All this fear mongering hand wringing about "blowing my face off" because everyone thinks trimming all the damn time is necessary for "safety". Well, see if it is required! Chamber your trimmed brass and then view the chamber from the muzzle end. One can see how much space there is between the case mouth and end of chamber. I stopped trimming regularly a long time ago when most all my factory rifle chambers had .040" of space with even the longest case.

- Line up an AR gas block to the gas port perfectly. Takes all the question out of the operation. I once discovered a GB with an off drilled hole.
- See if your copper solvent is still effectively cleaning copper well after the copper still in the bore stops showing any color on a patch.
- See if your carbon solvent is effective.
- As discusses, see the carbon ring
- Admire all the pretty concentric rings through the barrel of a Savage!

 

[AustinCar32]

No, there are tons of of things out there that show all kinds of icky things. But interpreting what you see is really tough. He knows he has a problem, be it bore related or ammunition related, his rifle fouls really easily. One question I guess I would pose, is the fouling carbon related ( comes out black) or copper related ( shows up as green/Blue)? If it is really black then for some reason your ammunition may be an issue. If green then there is roughness that is damaging the bullet. If black try shooting some match ammo ( federal gold medal or equivalent) and see if the problem continues.
If barrel yeah run some bore paste through, brush it a bit with bore cleaner and repeat. That should be enough to smooth out a burr or two.
Bore scopes in the hands of an experienced smith can help diagnose issues. In the hands of a frustrated average shooter they show images that have everyone screaming “Witch”.

I have not had much copper if any come out of the barrel during cleanings. The patches are coming out black, and surprisingly it never looks excessive to me. The bore comes out clean after just a couple wet patches, quick brush with nylon and a couple follow up patches.I am comparing that to my factory hunting rifles that i clean every 150ish rounds, they seem to require a lot more effort to clean than this barrel does.

I use Hoppes #9 for bore cleaning since that is what Weatherby recommends for my factory rifles, is it possible this new barrel is a different material that Hoppes #9 is less effective on?

 

[waveslayer]

Will there be fire cracking on a barrel that new?

Yes, depends how hard you're running it with hotnloads and heating up the barrel.

My Warbird had it after 80 rounds

 

[Ronin22]

I have not had much copper if any come out of the barrel during cleanings. The patches are coming out black, and surprisingly it never looks excessive to me. The bore comes out clean after just a couple wet patches, quick brush with nylon and a couple follow up patches.I am comparing that to my factory hunting rifles that i clean every 150ish rounds, they seem to require a lot more effort to clean than this barrel does.

I use Hoppes #9 for bore cleaning since that is what Weatherby recommends for my factory rifles, is it possible this new barrel is a different material that Hoppes #9 is less effective on?

Other things my borescope showed me:
- Hunting rifles, or rifles that don't get shot frequently, need to be cleaned after every session. Especially if you don't plan on, or shoot again with months in between. Pitting can and will develop under fouling after time.
- Bronze brushes with oil or paste cleaners especially will produce black patches forever. The bronze tarnishes against the steel and it's a false read.
- Copper builds a resistance to solvents. Using alcohol on a bronze brush between solvent cleaning roughs up the top copper layer allowing the solvent to work again.
- While not all tooling marks will degrade precision, it's nice to see how well smiths are chambering the barrels. Also nice to see what barrel makers are producing blanks with nice hand lapped rifling.

 

[6brshooter]

I have not had much copper if any come out of the barrel during cleanings. The patches are coming out black, and surprisingly it never looks excessive to me. The bore comes out clean after just a couple wet patches, quick brush with nylon and a couple follow up patches.I am comparing that to my factory hunting rifles that i clean every 150ish rounds, they seem to require a lot more effort to clean than this barrel does.

I use Hoppes #9 for bore cleaning since that is what Weatherby recommends for my factory rifles, is it possible this new barrel is a different material that Hoppes #9 is less effective on?

I mean, hoppes #9 is not that effective anymore without benzene. Kg1 for carbon and boretech eliminator for copper/carbon is master race.

 

[Thump_rrr]

I mean, hoppes #9 is not that effective anymore without benzene. Kg1 for carbon and boretech eliminator for copper/carbon is master race.

For normal cleaning I prefer Butch's Bore Shine.
For cabon removal I prefer Bore Tech carbon remover to KG1.

I also like using Wipe-Out foaming bore cleaner if I have time.
I run 2 patches of Wipe-Out accelerator through the bore before filling it with foam and by the next morning it just needs a couple of dry patches.

 

[6brshooter]

Maybe not apples to apples, but I tested some carbon removers awhile back on carboned up brakes. Kg1 cleaned the most in a set time frame, compared to some others, boretech being one of them.

 

[Ronin22]

Thorroclean and everything else in the trash.

 

[AustinCar32]

Thanks for all the replies. I have an order of Iosso, and Bore tech eliminator showing up tomorrow.

I have about 50rds on the barrel right now, just shot 5 shots with a mv of;
-2964 -pressure signs
-2944 -pressure signs
-2932
-2917 -pressure signs
-2926

I went inside and cleaned the barrel the same way I have been, shot 5 more after 2 foulers.
-2866
-2871
-2854
-2869
-2848

Tomorrow i am going to clean the barrel with a bronze brush using the new products I ordered, and ill start counting rounds to see if/when it happens again.

 

[Baron23]

Thanks for all the replies. I have an order of Iosso, and Bore tech eliminator showing up tomorrow.

I have about 50rds on the barrel right now, just shot 5 shots with a mv of;
-2964 -pressure signs
-2944 -pressure signs
-2932
-2917 -pressure signs
-2926

I went inside and cleaned the barrel the same way I have been, shot 5 more after 2 foulers.
-2866
-2871
-2854
-2869
-2848

Tomorrow i am going to clean the barrel with a bronze brush using the new products I ordered, and I’ll start counting rounds to see if/when it happens again.

Please do NOT use an abrasive paste and a brush. BIG thread started by @Frank Green of Bartlein barrels here on the Hide.

 

[AustinCar32]

Please do NOT use an abrasive paste and a brush. BIG thread started by @Frank Green of Bartlein barrels here on the Hide.

Thank you, i had planned on using the Iosso on a patch as described on a different forum that I read. Ill hold off on the iosso and just try the bore tech with brush first.

 

[oldrifleman]

Question, I know you are getting good velocities. It looks like as the “barrel fouls” velocity increases as does pressure, but goes back down when cleaned. Describe the appearance of your cases when shit right after cleaning . Are they nearly covered in carbon or still bright? What I am wondering is if the fouling is sealing the chamber. As the chamber seals the pressures increase until they go above what you want.

 

[AustinCar32]

Question, I know you are getting good velocities. It looks like as the “barrel fouls” velocity increases as does pressure, but goes back down when cleaned. Describe the appearance of your cases when shit right after cleaning . Are they nearly covered in carbon or still bright? What I am wondering is if the fouling is sealing the chamber. As the chamber seals the pressures increase until they go above what you want.

I never thought to look at that before. I have only been reloading for about 1.5 years now, having done approximately 2k rounds in that time.

Here is a picture of 3 loaded rounds, vs 3 rounds i shot this morning after cleaning the bore and running 2 foulers. All brass has been fired 3x now.

 

[Ronin22]

Please do NOT use an abrasive paste and a brush. BIG thread started by @Frank Green of Bartlein barrels here on the Hide.

Yeah, that’s a hard no on that thread. Using Iosso or Thorroclean with brass brush won’t hurt the barrel. There were other user fuck ups on cleaning that resulted in the damage.

I’ve tested for myself for nearly two years on both Thorroclean and Iosso with oil. Multiple barrels with no ill effects. I spoke with Iosso about Frank’s thread and I believe back channel there were some agreements on change of tune.

 

[oldrifleman]

I am seeing some fouling on the neck, but the shoulder is bright. The neck is not sealing, but the shoulder looks ok. But then what do I know.

 

[Barelstroker]

5 shot groups about 30 seconds apart, then 15 minute cool down between groups, ambient temps have been around 40 degrees.

The barrel is a magnum taper, 1" at the muzzle but it is a carbon wrapped barrel.

Ok, a carbon wrapped barrel. I think this puts a different slant on things.
I have no personal experience with CW barrels however from many things I've read, I'm not sure a CW barrel will deal well with the firing rate you stated.
I think you should seek the expertise of CW barrel users to gain some perspective.
When CW barrels 1st appeared, there were claims of excellent heat dispersal which always confused me at the time as carbon is an excellent insulator. I know of 2 heat tests on CW barrels & they both confirmed rather poor heat dispersal & some unusual signs with that.
I have a suspicion that your CW barrel isn't happy shooting 40 rounds in the time allotted.

 

[AustinCar32]

Ok, a carbon wrapped barrel. I think this puts a different slant on things.
I have no personal experience with CW barrels however from many things I've read, I'm not sure a CW barrel will deal well with the firing rate you stated.
I think you should seek the expertise of CW barrel users to gain some perspective.
When CW barrels 1st appeared, there were claims of excellent heat dispersal which always confused me at the time as carbon is an excellent insulator. I know of 2 heat tests on CW barrels & they both confirmed rather poor heat dispersal & some unusual signs with that.
I have a suspicion that your CW barrel isn't happy shooting 40 rounds in the time allotted.

I would absolutely agree with all that, but the 40 rounds are not shot in one sitting. I am fortunate to have a short range in my backyard (150yds), so i can shoot anytime. If the barrel has over 40rds through it, i get the same results the next day.

 

[Barelstroker]

I would absolutely agree with all that, but the 40 rounds are not shot in one sitting. I am fortunate to have a short range in my backyard (150yds), so i can shoot anytime. If the barrel has over 40rds through it, i get the same results the next day.

Yeah right.
Definitely a head scratcher although, I would definitely speak with some guys who use CW barrels on regular basis to see if there might be something there.

 

[oldrifleman]

A test, may prove nothing but, after a 40 round test can you easily chamber a round? Does it pass a no go head space test?

 

[AustinCar32]

A test, may prove nothing but, after a 40 round test can you easily chamber a round? Does it pass a no go head space test?

I only have about 10 rounds through it since last cleaning, but just in case i did just try the no go gauge and it will not close.

This is the first rifle i built, and i did everything very carefully. Hornady virgin brass is measuring .004 shorter than my fireformed brass, and i am bumping shoulders back .003

 

[Barelstroker]

A test, may prove nothing but, after a 40 round test can you easily chamber a round? Does it pass a no go head space test?

Speaking of head space changes, I can't recall a specific mention about HS changes however after shooting a number of rounds to heat the barrel, temps were recorded that were fairly high & the speculation was that the carbon wrap layers were either not expanding or expanding much less that the S/S liner causing the bore dia to be forced inward. I can't recall who conducted the testing or what the issues were if any but the tests brought about more questions than answers.
Having 2 completely different materials closely bonded that react differently with temperature increases & possibly decreases, left me wondering about CW barrel performance during string firing.

 

[JerkyFreak]

Still not sure what the resistance is to bronze brushes. Use one with an oil based cleaner and most of your cleaning problems will disappear. Don't use it with a copper removal solvent for obvious reasons.

Also, bronze brushes are consumables that has to be replaced after around 4-6 cleaning sessions depending on wear. And yes, the barrel wears away the bronze.

Nylon brushes are just good for spreading loose stuff around. They suck at removing baked-on cellulose based carbon like what you would get in a carbon ring.

 

[AustinCar32]

Speaking of head space changes, I can't recall a specific mention about HS changes however after shooting a number of rounds to heat the barrel, temps were recorded that were fairly high & the speculation was that the carbon wrap layers were either not expanding or expanding much less that the S/S liner causing the bore dia to be forced inward. I can't recall who conducted the testing or what the issues were if any but the tests brought about more questions than answers.
Having 2 completely different materials closely bonded that react differently with temperature increases & possibly decreases, left me wondering about CW barrel performance during string firing.

Thats interesting, next time i shoot a 5 shot group ill stick the no-go/go gauges in there and see if it feels different