Masterful Trolling for two days straight....
Think he got us all ?
Think he got us all ?
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Mechanics of shooting bolt vs. semi
- Thread starter garandman
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Garandman, I think the answer to your question is yes. It is possible for someone who can squeeze all the accuracy out of a bolt to squeeze all the accuracy out of a semi. Unfortunately, the amount of possible accuracy from a bolt is way more than the possible accuracy from a semi. Neither you or I have the ability to squeeze all the accuracy out of either, and I think that’s where you’re getting fired up.
Disregard this. I now see how the rail is attached to the reciever.
Can I ask what this type of setup offers? Looks like a lot of extra bulk/weight vs a traditional mount
"I never said fundamentals weren't important" and yet....
I posted an example of what two different driving styles do
I cited an example of two different driving styles producing two very different results with my gas guns. With my bolts, this has much less of an impact (pun intended) I can death grip them or pinch the trigger/guard and they will shoot pretty much the same.
So....the fundamentals are indeed different for me and many others.
If I'm tired/lazy/sloppy with the gassers, it really shows. The bolts just keep plugging away within reason of course.
I posted an example of what two different driving styles do
Your comment of ".....in the 1/1000th of a second....." lead me to that conclusion.
I cited an example of two different driving styles producing two very different results with my gas guns. With my bolts, this has much less of an impact (pun intended) I can death grip them or pinch the trigger/guard and they will shoot pretty much the same.
So....the fundamentals are indeed different for me and many others.
If I'm tired/lazy/sloppy with the gassers, it really shows. The bolts just keep plugging away within reason of course.
Essentially it's an extended riser that creates monolithic top mounting system, was specifically designed for the original Mark 12 mod 0. Basically it allows enough real estate to add night vision and other goodies.
I run the same system on some of my other setups, here's a Grendel and a 6mm FatRat with the same rail.
The kicker is that you can do all that with a light triggered bolt gun and still shoot great. It was a real eye opener the first time I balanced a bolt gun on a fence post and didn't touch anything but the trigger to make good hits at distance. Thats the world a lot of these "gas guns can't shoot" guys come from.
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SHIT brother I'd love to shoot with you, THE 3 gun world is something I haven't touched on yet.
Felix is just a couple hours up the road from me, him and I are trying to get together to do some long-range work with our semi-autos.
As I stated above earlier I love my bolt action rifles but the fun factor just isn't there for me anymore. I believe it was you that I was talking to the other day about doing a custom build with the seekins building kit and proof stainless steel barrel. I'm going to knock that one out soon but next winter I'm just going to save my pennies and get me a decked out JP LRP-07, JP's even offering them with the proof research carbon fiber barrels now.
Be careful with that 3 gun stuff, you'll shoot yer eye out. Or just get addicted. Bad news either way.
You got the wrong guy about the Seekins/Proof build but it does sound like the beginning of a quality blaster. I always really enjoy shooting bolt guns for about the first hour of doing stuff I can't get away with on gassers, then I get bored and put them away for a few months. Something about semi autos just feels right...
I have recently started competing with an ar (223) and feel like I'm getting the hang of it. Having come from varmint shooting it's been an adjustment, but I have yet to feel like my equipment is holding me back. I'm transitioning to an RPR in 6 creed because I need to get out further and living in Cali sucks for semi's. If I lived in a free state I would likely go to a big boy ar and I think I'd be just fine. I've attached a wallet group from two weeks ago. This is about 110 yards, factory ammo, a monkey who had some coffee and a good nights sleep. Group is just over 1/2".
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What's TRULY laughable is you trotting out a Valkyrie vs. a .223 AR15. Are you familair with teh concept of G1 / G7 ballistic coefficient? TOTALLY different in the two guns.
Good grief. What an idiotic post.
So
I bounced in this thread this AM just to see what was up, as I had a bunch of notifications and I stumbled on this which I missed last night ?
What the royal fuck does this even mean... how does the BC effect a 100 yard group ?
And a Valkyrie can use the same bullet, the MV is a bit different, more like a 223AI but god damn how can anyone with half a brain post this with a straight face and then try to laugh at the thought.
Crazy, I didn't know BC where responsible for accuracy and its not a representation fo the drag on the bullet but a measure of accuracy.
What happens if I put my G1 value in here for my Valkyrie, do I loose the G7 accuracy, wow just wow
Could you get some insight into this question please.
Now that you've had adequate time running the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 224 valkyrie in your JP systems, would you say that semi-autos are bridging the gap as precision rifles enough to use them as a standard platform in competition or will bolt rifles always have the edge in PRS style matches?
Yeah, I noticed that too, but as he has me on ignore, I couldn’t point out to him that you were using the same 75g bullets in those American Eagle loads as he is touting for his “success” yesterday.
He’s a real legend in his own mind.
I have always felt the right semi-auto bridges the gap, since the first GAP10 where I stone cold in front of crowd shot a no bullshit .25" group with factory ammo.
The issue is, the effort to get good enough. Barrels, lock up, components have improved by leaps and bounds over the years and sub 3/8th accuracy is doable. The issue is,
I can invest in a semi auto then go to work learning to shoot it, or I can buy a bolt gun in 6CM, add a weight system to an MDT Chassis with a super light trigger and let the rifle do all the work. OptionB in this case is the most common shortcut guys take.
It's doable, but the effort requires it won't get done.
The issue is, the effort to get good enough. Barrels, lock up, components have improved by leaps and bounds over the years and sub 3/8th accuracy is doable. The issue is,
I can invest in a semi auto then go to work learning to shoot it, or I can buy a bolt gun in 6CM, add a weight system to an MDT Chassis with a super light trigger and let the rifle do all the work. OptionB in this case is the most common shortcut guys take.
It's doable, but the effort requires it won't get done.
I thought everyone knew the superior ballistics of the .224V are what enable it to shoot better groups than the .223 - especially at 100 yards. ?
I had the same questions. I know even shooting prone off a hard surface can give me mixed results.
Frank: Was the rifle in your video posted today a standard issue off the shelf JP factory build? I'm slowly coming to terms with I MADE A MISTAKE going with Larue.
I realize you may not respond to this question, I get it. I'm just curious. Thank you in advance.
I realize you may not respond to this question, I get it. I'm just curious. Thank you in advance.
Yes,
I am using off the Shelf stuff, not a custom Frank rifle. Hell I shoot factory ammo.
Only the old LaRue's work as advertised, the ones after the barrel change are shit.
We had one in the class last week and it was lucky to be 3/4" which is not where they were when they used Lothar Barrels.
I am using off the Shelf stuff, not a custom Frank rifle. Hell I shoot factory ammo.
Only the old LaRue's work as advertised, the ones after the barrel change are shit.
We had one in the class last week and it was lucky to be 3/4" which is not where they were when they used Lothar Barrels.
Thank you Sir. Firm believer the learning process never stops. I have gained so much from this site over the years.
Sure enough, if I drop the ball on a shot it's most likely because somewhere in the process my application of the fundamentals was flawed.
Thanks again.
I left his comment on that alone, wondering how long it would take you to catch it...........................
He has no clue with regards to the effects of BC or maybe even what BC is...........................if only obviously.
Nice response to an ass-whippoorwill.
MM
BC...you mean like birth control? something that maybe would have prevented this threadI left his comment on that alone, wondering how long it would take you to catch it...........................
He has no clue with regards to the effects of BC or maybe even what BC is...........................if only obviously.
Nice response to an ass-whippoorwill.
MM
OK, gonna go a little off topic here: has anyone tried or have any experience with straight pull uppers? Not really digging having to run a Cali-moron legal AR and was thinking of running a straight pull, no gas upper. It would also give me an excuse to try a Valk build.
Wouldn't it just be easier to get a bolt gun chambered in 224 Valkyrie??
And my deepest condolences to you for your unfortunate residency.
Yes easier, but I think I could build one for a reasonable amount of coin, I wouldn't have to worry about feeding/mags/stock choices and I have a stubborn tendency to try to make shit work that shouldn't.
No need to appologize, the weather is amazing, surf and ski in June, get to shoot squirrels, all kinds of great food nearby and very confused neighbors when I load up my shit to go shoot.
No need to appologize, the weather is amazing, surf and ski in June, get to shoot squirrels, all kinds of great food nearby and very confused neighbors when I load up my shit to go shoot.
A straight pull can be a pain in the ass if the cases stick in the chamber from high pressure. There is no cam on the charge handle like a bolt gun and the cam in the carrier really doesn't help.
They are different, trust me. So much so, after seeing literally hundreds of 6x5’s from hundreds of people with hundreds of firearms that the semi autos didn’t even come close to bolt actions & had to put them in their own categories because bolts destroyed them. Too many factors, and sorry, but I’m somewhat tired of answering this question over the years since the 6x5’s started back in 2011-2012 ish... Basically boils down to recoil management of the semi auto, trigger reset and control, and the advantages of having a completely sealed chamber of the bolt action (gas tubes, blow backs, pistons = not as consistent velocities as a bolt) blah blah blah. Trying to compare bolt SD’s to semi SD’s is chasing your tail.
6x5’s are still going strong in my closed group on Facebook if you’d like to see more examples. About 1700 members and some are world record holders in which their 300 yard groups make most peoples 100 yard groups look silly. New group is even geared more towards actually getting bullseye above and beyond just producing stupid small groups with your muscle car firearm and reloads. It can’t always be 33.33% rifle, and 33.33% reloads,,,,,,. Ya got to figure your own 33.33% skill.
6x5’s are still going strong in my closed group on Facebook if you’d like to see more examples. About 1700 members and some are world record holders in which their 300 yard groups make most peoples 100 yard groups look silly. New group is even geared more towards actually getting bullseye above and beyond just producing stupid small groups with your muscle car firearm and reloads. It can’t always be 33.33% rifle, and 33.33% reloads,,,,,,. Ya got to figure your own 33.33% skill.
Just follow the OP. You'll thank me later.
The variations here are mostly you. From the groups, I'm going to say that your rear rest and the stock aren't always 'locked' together and that you fidgit during groups and constantly adjust your grip/shoulders/body position from shot to shot.
Either your scope needs to come like a MIL right, or you are a consistant trigger crusher as well.
Most semis will shoot better than the shooter. The myth that semis are 'inaccurate' is mostly bullshit. The only truth to that is for the most part for milspec weapons (Mk12, M110) the accuracy requirement was actually above MOA if I recall correctly, but then it can also be argued that the ammunition that is required to be used has a part in that as well. Then again, I'm not aiming to hit the guy in his short button; I just need a CoM hit, so who gives a shit.
Semis, especially large frames are harder to shoot accurately due to many factors that add up; lock time, double/opposing impulses, weight difference, and stocks generally not designed with rear bags in mind.
So its pretty much you.
Did you LOOK AT the targets?
The variations there are DIFFERENT LOADS.
Its an OCW....NOT a 5 x 5.
And the scope is INTENTIONALLY SIGHTED off the bullseye so as to NOT destroy the aiming point.
SMH. What a clown. And yes ...I already know you'll never apologize / admit your comprehension error and wrong assumptions.
This type of ignorance is the source of this entire stupid debate. Cuz haters read to argue and attack, NOT to understand.
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Yes. OF COURSE semis are functionally differnt than bolt guns. Obviously. I've never said otherwise. I have specifically said they ARE different. Repeatedly.
Whats NOT different is how to shoot - sight alignment, breathing control, trigger squeeze and follow thru. If a shooter can do those well for a bolt, then they can do those for a semi. Bcuz UNTIL the trigger releases, shooting a bolt and a semi are the same.
And while my shooter error MAY WELL cause a group to open up from 0.50" to 0.75" ....it WILL NOT cause it to open from 0.50" to 1.75"...which is what I'm seeing when I try to repeat a load / shoot a 5 x 5.
The pics above are an OCW, not a 5x5.
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What prolly was an error on my part was shooting almost 50 rounds in a 30 minute session, heating up the barrel and introducing the possibility of a POI shift.
What's fascinating is that NONE of the experts here have posted up their sub half MoA 5x5's to show everyone how its done / the excellent accuracy that is posible from a semi, and how they can be regarded as such experts on how to shoot a semi.
i even see differences, rather large ones, between large frame AR’s and small frame AR (more bolt Mass to control). Consistently 223 AR’s would destroy 308 AR’s for averages. I’ve seen enough to say this. And this is including top end AR brands (not saying it’s the firearm = it’s the person driving the AR) that it was VERY RARE to see anyone average a 6x5 with a 308 AR under 1.25” to 1” at 100yrds... 223 AR’s would easily hit the .8” to 1” range consistently at 100yrds.
Most bolt action 308’s would consistently be at .75” and under....
All of this also depends on reloads too which most are using in my group.
If I get some time I’ll post some top ten boards for ya between semi and bolts. I have loads of em
Most bolt action 308’s would consistently be at .75” and under....
All of this also depends on reloads too which most are using in my group.
If I get some time I’ll post some top ten boards for ya between semi and bolts. I have loads of em
I agree. I've owned both 223 and 308 in the AR platform. The 308 was inaccurate enuf to push me to 308 and eventually 6.5 CM bolt guns.
The 223's I've owned were much more accurate. Except for THIS ONE gun I'm shooting now.
That's the other thing. I think my expectations are too high of semi 223s.
I'm expecting them to rival my bolt guns (0.50 to 0.60" and often much better), when I should only be expecting 0.75 to 1.00" @ 100y (at least on 5x5's)
I've got a factory built Lantac straight pull upper (223 Wylde) that I'm just starting to play with a little. I've only been able to put 40 rounds through it but so far I'm liking it. No issues with stuck cases or the like although I did short stroke the handle the first couple times
Are you on Facebook? If so, then join the group. All the current and old top ten boards are located in the pinned post. And EVERY single uploaded 6x5 target, including the pic of the firearm, and reloads info is all there from the start of my closed group. You can even google my name elfster 6x5 and I think some of that info comes up. It’s undeniable information I think you’d find interesting my friend
I got off FB. Too much drama. LOL
BTW.... thanx for being truly helpful and respectful. For inforrming even disagreeing without insulting / attacking.
I'll listen to ppl like you all day long. I shoot to learn and improve, not tell everyone what an expert I am and what a clueless tool they are.
Get a load of James Phillips. He makes his own bullets and I swear he sleeps with his firearms and reloading gear. Record holding 600 br shooter for some time. His 300 yard groups will destroy your 100 yard groups, all in the bulls too. I’ve never seen anyone print 6x5’s like him, all off sand bags. It’s a whole different level of accuracy...
I’m a busy person, but if I get time I’ll snap some screen shots of the top ten boards and will post them for ya. Have a beautiful day
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