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MG34/MG42/MG3 vs PKM
- Thread starter Forgetful Coyote
- Start date
The removed 23 pounds were weak and inferior, not strong like Siberian turnip and worthy of glorious Soviet machine gun use. It is only a pity they could not be put to work in gulag for betterment of glorious Soviet tractor production.
Service wide three round burst is disappearing. I’m referring to using M4A1s as automatic rifles, which is why they were developed. 4 assault rifles with guys that can talk them is a lot of firepower, and the units that led the requirement for the A1 don’t have organic crew served weapons.
Receiver life on the Mk48 is questionable and many of them don’t run right. It’s not an adequate 240 replacement, which is why the 240L was developed. The 240L is the closest thing we have to a GPMG conceptually.
I really like the M60E6 and it would have been a better choice than the Mk48 but the demand for parts compatibility with the Mk48 made that impossible. The short, semi bull pup receiver makes it a rare bird—a 7.62 that can be fired from the shoulder in the assault.
KORD is cool and all but 50 caliber in general is getting to be a tough spot. Armored vehicles are built to withstand it so either move up to something that carries more ass or down to something with a smaller cube.
Do yall think we'll move more and more toward incorporating explosives into belt feds ala the Mk 19? At least on vehicle mounted weapons? Like you said @RyanScott , simple kinetic energy starts seeing diminishing returns as armor level is increased..
Yes with explosive force is my bet considering the army is starting to RE-focus on Russo and also the Chinese. Verses filthy Islamic soft targets.
There is know how involved in making good stamped metal framed guns , remember before they mastered stamped production AKs were milled , same with german MGs
Certainly when it comes to MG and HMGs these stemped metal guns are like space age freedom weapons in comparison to pre WW1 design like M2 and even is quite overweight M240 , M240 can match PKM weight with goldplated titanium reciever or Barrets welded up version (must be Red Jacket licence)
Good riddance to burst!
Using ARs in sequence is a disciplined task.
The reason three round burst was developed is because the average trained guy is undisciplined.
Absolutely agree that guys using ARs correctly is sweet. You are talking more than your average line infantryman though.
The USMC Fire Team is a great independent unit. The Automatic rifleman is your second most capable guy after the Fire Team Leader. He gets assisted by a rifleman ready to take over his weapon.
Your example shows why you want capable guys on the AR.
The mk19 like the saw, is a neat concept on paper but blows in real life...mk19 and 249s are jamming pieces of crap.... With that said if yours is working ...damn it's a sight to see in action haha
Doctrinally in the Army the SAW goes to the second most senior soldier in the fire team. In practice that isn’t always the case. Given that the Army seems to have forgotten that suppression is about shooting known, likely and suspected enemy positions and has transitioned to depositing lead on hillsides a mechanism to slow their rate of fire (box mag) might be useful. Think of the difference between an M4 based AR and a SAW like this: with the M4, you can carry an AT4 too. Or an extra belt for the weapons squad. Or two 60mm mortar rounds. Now I’m not saying I’m qualified to decide which is best, but I can see the options. Was just on the phone with my brother (13A) and he was arguing hard for the extra HE.
Everyone in my platoon carried part of belt for the 240, the 249, 1 203 smoke, 2 203 he, 2 60 mm mortar rounds and a partridge in a pear tree. Don't know the conditions your artillery brother is fighting In but where I was, extra belt fed ammo was always needed...
Also missions where our matv's could go, each truck carried 3 times the minimum belt fed ammo load out
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There’s a push to put the 30mm from the Apache into HMMWVs and JLTVs in a CROWS mount. Industry definitely thinks the Army sees that in the future. With CROWS the guns are going to get heavier and more accurate. Freegunning cannons is going to be a thing of the past. I don’t know if it’s true but someone said the gun from the Apache on a mount has a range of multiple kilometers.
As for bigger vehicles, 40 and 50mm cannons are coming that are a game changer for one reason: you can set the rounds to airburst behind obstacles using a VT fuse. It’s a bad time to be a crunchy eh?
To clarify, I didn’t mean he suggested the extra link for the weapons section wasn’t as important as HE, he suggested that the weight of a SAW didn’t give enough benefit over an M4 to justify the extra 7.62 belt or explosive that you couldn’t carry with it.
Crows systems rock at night and in wide open area...when the fighting is fast and in your face nothing replaces the human eye and speed of a well trained mg guy. You will probably have at least 1 crows system per motorized platoon, but I can guarantee the other trucks will have a normal Gunner that has peripheral vision
The 30mm weapon itself is definitely capable of 2 miles or more ballistically. That'd be sweet to see something like that or 25mm Bushmaster or even 20mm Vulcan make its way to being more widespread. A 20mm at least shouldn't have any issue with being manually operated as a fallback option either. People like to talk about directed energy weapons and what not but I think at least in the near(er) future a more realistic concept is that we'll see more and more explosives incorporated into weapons and all sorts of fun ways to control/harness them. Ie a armor piercing HE shaped charge round for smaller weapons(M203 maybe? Range would be short tho) that currently aint got that capability... or something that makes most any traditional human-carried body armor obsolete.
Anyhow, @TheGerman you need this
Does anyone know if a AR's buffer spring bottoms out on each shot? And is it possible w/ adjustable gas block to adjust it so it does not bottom out?
Anyhow, @TheGerman you need this
Does anyone know if a AR's buffer spring bottoms out on each shot? And is it possible w/ adjustable gas block to adjust it so it does not bottom out?
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You mean like FRAG-12 rounds out of, say, a AA-12 automatic shotgun? Or this nifty piece of South African dakka: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopup_PAW-20 ?
Exactly. Reports from troops using the XM25 said it was awesome.. until it blew up in a soldiers hands..
@pmclaine So the Marines are unhappy they didn't get to play with their Johnsons? A case of Johnson envy because the Army and Paramarines got a few to enjoy but the rest had to make do with BARs and Springfields/M1s?
(In seriousness I've always wanted a Johnson rifle. That's one of the designs I really wish someone would remake in the present day, along with a DeLisle carbine.)
(In seriousness I've always wanted a Johnson rifle. That's one of the designs I really wish someone would remake in the present day, along with a DeLisle carbine.)
Melvin being a Marine, and also being a friend of the Presidents son USMC Col Jimmy Roosevelt, he kind of had a big megaphone for his size.
Thing is there was no McNamara to question the viability of the armory system nor the ability for an enemy to really threaten that concentration of strategic production.
The armory system wasnt to be challenged by someone running a small manufacturing business in Cranston RI.
if the armory was offended that Winchester got a contract they certainly didnt want to hear from any swinging Johnson.
My local gun shop gets Johnsons in every now and than.
He had one that was almost issue but due to someone having messed with, IIRC, the rear sight and scrubbed some markings for aesthetics (?) it was a good bit off its GI legit price. I think he had it at about $1500.
I was very tempted just for the novelty of being able to top off the rotary mag by tossing 30-06 torpedoes through the loading door.
Its a funny interesting gun and some of the design made it through to today. I think there is some carryover in the M16 bolt from Johnsons original idea.
I see them online now and then but I don't think my local shops have ever had one that I can recall. Kinda wonder what would need to happen, besides setting up the machinery, to resume production, like patents-wise and so on. Market might not really be large for one, though, but since you have Auto Ordnance and them doing M1 carbines and Thompsons, that Ithaca '37 clone, OOW's BAR, who knows?
Looks like a lot of machine work. I dont think its something conducive to "casting" as many of the new repros are prone to be built around.
I guess the receivers could be forged up and than set em in a five axis mill with the right program but I think its still a more expensive endeavor than the curious enthusiast is willing to pay.
Some group was building repro MP44s using HK semi trigger packs. If I remember right it was north of $3K for what was intended to be a stamped easy to produce weapon. The originals were so cheap that they were prone to bending at the barrel/receiver trunion, the new built guns had to reinforce that area for durability/safety.
Designs from back than tend to get expensive when you have to factor in the lawyers and ambulance chasers of today.
Yeah, I don't think that bringing back the retro stuff, with the exception of the more popular things like the Tommy guns and M1 carbines and Garand, would really be financially viable unless you were 100% positive that there was enough of a market to make it worthwhile. Which, yeah, sometimes turn out that there is a big enough market to warrant it but for something like a Johnson? Probably not.
Weirdly, I think the Germans actually make clones of a bunch of the old WWII guns, or they did. STG-43s and 44s, MP-40s, G43s, some other ones. Semiauto-only, of course. But they were either never allowed on the US market or were allowed in minuscule quantities. The one you're talking about with the HK trigger pack, I remember seeing about those; they might be the ones that promised they'd come in 7.92 Kurz, 7.62 Soviet, 5.56, and .300 Blackout but so far have barely been produced if at all despite pre-orders being out for a couple years.
TNW made a semi-only MG34 and damn I wish I coulda afforded one before they stopped production. Prices will only go up now, I figure. I have one of their Suomi KP/31 and boy, it's a heavy bastard especially with the drum loaded.
I once found a group online who made copies of the M3A1 Grease Gun; you could either get a pistol version with no stock slot and a standard barrel, a carbine with sliding stock and an overlong barrel, and possibly an SBR in stock configuration. They also made nonsilenced (I think) DeLisle carbines. But I don't know if they're in business anymore and they seemed kinda sketchy anyway.
There's also a group out there who are trying very hard to make semi-only copies of the FG-42, actually fill orders, and try their best to make them not-horribly-expensive, but since it's only a few guys with a small shop, it's slow. They might be working on some other retro projects too, like either a Bren or vz. 26, I think? Possibly some Russian stuff and/or a Lewis gun, at least in the planning stages? It's been a while since I looked at their site.
SMG Guns maybe?
https://www.smggunsstore.com/
Speaking of the FG42.. what a cool ass rifle..
The PPSH41 and PPS43 as well.. IMO the 7.62x25 was pretty much the first PDW round. Some of that ammo is quite zippy
Germans are making bunch of replicas and FG 42 replica actualy uses some of the original stamping tools from ww2 , for other more common ww2 arms there is little point in makeing replicas as long as you have so many surplus originals at least in Europe there is still plenty around .
Localy you can buy original WW2 MG42 for about 900$ in good condition
Thousands of Stg 43 and 44 in US financed and supplied 'mederate' headchopers hands
Localy you can buy original WW2 MG42 for about 900$ in good condition
Thousands of Stg 43 and 44 in US financed and supplied 'mederate' headchopers hands
Yeah, SSD was who I was talking about. But as far as I know, US customers can't get their products, unless maybe a gun shop is willing to go through a lot of red tape and extra $$ to import one for you. So we have to make do with either expensive-as-fuck-all originals or the occasional small group who's working to remake them domestically, which can still be expensive-as-fuck-all.
At least there are makers of blank-fire-only MG42s and MP40s and some others, for the reenacting crowd. You get the sound and fury of the real gun but it's not as expensive nor does it require ATF red tape and bureaucracy.
Full auto guns are fully legal in most Europe on collectors licence
A local gunsmith converted about 400 or so of ww2 SMGs and MGs to blanks for export a year ago and as far as i remember he welded in place a bore restrictor tuned to specific arm to enable cycling , with MG42 reenactors often just placed a shim in the recoil booster and the barrels were not modified ,but with new EU directive the blank firing guns are now treated same as live ammo guns , also there are new standardised rules for demilling, curtesy of 'moderate beheaders' that used one or two blank firing guns DIY converted back to live firing guns in the Paris attacks that prompted the UE firearms directive.
The blank-only ones I've seen are made as such, not converted, and making them live fire would be both illegal and ill-advised for several reasons. I hadn't heard that about the Paris attacks, though.
We are talking real guns that were modified to fire blanks , not die cast replicas that are made to fire blanks from the start and are oftem made from shity materials like tin.
In East Europe full auto surplus guns were sold in bulk for under 50$ but as only colectors can own them an industry converting these ither to semi auto and to blanks come to be , an hour of work on 50$ gun bosted its value to 300+$ as an blak firing weapon anyone coulčd purchase ,Slovakian 'Alarm' guns as they call them were quite notorious for the minimaly invasive conversion ( a pair of holes driled ahead of the chamber and pin welded in ) and with some DIY you could dril that out and weld the hole , and end up with a full auto gun , being dangerous or illiegal never put off criminals
''In September 2013, EU member state Slovakia sent out an alert -- in English so that it could be understood everywhere. Slovakia had particularly weak regulations when it came to the modification of deadly weapons into alarm weapons. Two metal pegs in the barrel were considered sufficient. The Slovakian authorities were concerned and they published a poster with 16 images.
The poster noted that alarm weapons from Slovakia were being "reactivated increasingly often." All it took, the poster noted, was "simple modifications:" simply removing the two pegs from the gun barrel. It was also extremely easy to purchase such weapons at stores. Buyers only had to be 18 years old and present a valid ID. The poster showed a pistol that that had been transformed into a blank-firing weapon by a company called Kol Arms and a Ceska vz.58 automatic rifle that had undergone the same procedure. ''
theblacksea.eu
In East Europe full auto surplus guns were sold in bulk for under 50$ but as only colectors can own them an industry converting these ither to semi auto and to blanks come to be , an hour of work on 50$ gun bosted its value to 300+$ as an blak firing weapon anyone coulčd purchase ,Slovakian 'Alarm' guns as they call them were quite notorious for the minimaly invasive conversion ( a pair of holes driled ahead of the chamber and pin welded in ) and with some DIY you could dril that out and weld the hole , and end up with a full auto gun , being dangerous or illiegal never put off criminals
''In September 2013, EU member state Slovakia sent out an alert -- in English so that it could be understood everywhere. Slovakia had particularly weak regulations when it came to the modification of deadly weapons into alarm weapons. Two metal pegs in the barrel were considered sufficient. The Slovakian authorities were concerned and they published a poster with 16 images.
The poster noted that alarm weapons from Slovakia were being "reactivated increasingly often." All it took, the poster noted, was "simple modifications:" simply removing the two pegs from the gun barrel. It was also extremely easy to purchase such weapons at stores. Buyers only had to be 18 years old and present a valid ID. The poster showed a pistol that that had been transformed into a blank-firing weapon by a company called Kol Arms and a Ceska vz.58 automatic rifle that had undergone the same procedure. ''
Route of weapons used in Paris terror attacks leads to Slovak online gun shop
A shadow gun market from some countries in east Europe is fueling terrorism in the west, as criminal gangs use legal loopholes and open borders to traffic weapons
theblacksea.eu
Well, we're talking both. Blank-converted genuine weapons imported from Europe would be about as hard for the average American collector or reenactor to acquire as a live-fire one. Most of the people who could afford them would be movie armorers. So for those of us who can't afford or otherwise obtain a converted one, at least for reenactors and living historians, we have little choice but to find purpose-built BFO guns that cannot be made live-fire. Which are still very expensive and are in fact made of steel, at least the ones I've looked at.We are talking real guns that were modified to fire blanks , not die cast replicas that are made to fire blanks from the start and are oftem made from shity materials like tin.
In East Europe full auto surplus guns were sold in bulk for under 50$ but as only colectors can own them an industry converting these ither to semi auto and to blanks come to be , an hour of work on 50$ gun bosted its value to 300+$ as an blak firing weapon anyone coulčd purchase ,Slovakian 'Alarm' guns as they call them were quite notorious for the minimaly invasive conversion ( a pair of holes driled ahead of the chamber and pin welded in ) and with some DIY you could dril that out and weld the hole , and end up with a full auto gun , being dangerous or illiegal never put off criminals
''In September 2013, EU member state Slovakia sent out an alert -- in English so that it could be understood everywhere. Slovakia had particularly weak regulations when it came to the modification of deadly weapons into alarm weapons. Two metal pegs in the barrel were considered sufficient. The Slovakian authorities were concerned and they published a poster with 16 images.
The poster noted that alarm weapons from Slovakia were being "reactivated increasingly often." All it took, the poster noted, was "simple modifications:" simply removing the two pegs from the gun barrel. It was also extremely easy to purchase such weapons at stores. Buyers only had to be 18 years old and present a valid ID. The poster showed a pistol that that had been transformed into a blank-firing weapon by a company called Kol Arms and a Ceska vz.58 automatic rifle that had undergone the same procedure. ''
Route of weapons used in Paris terror attacks leads to Slovak online gun shop
A shadow gun market from some countries in east Europe is fueling terrorism in the west, as criminal gangs use legal loopholes and open borders to traffic weapons
Here the full auto guns are still afordable but market changed over past couple of years
Much of the surplus arms market got drained curtesy of US State Department and GCC that went on a shoping spree to arm terrorists and jihadis in Syria and Libya
Much of the surplus arms market got drained curtesy of US State Department and GCC that went on a shoping spree to arm terrorists and jihadis in Syria and Libya
I'm not saying I'd like to go on a little shopping trip to a Middle Eastern/North African arms market, but I'm not saying I wouldn't browse the offerings and test the merchandise for function if I found myself in one, either. It's a pity that so many valuable weapons won't go to loving homes in the West.
Yes, it's a New Zealand address. He is quite well known here. Getting something out of NZ isnt that difficult it might be classed as ITAR getting it into the US? That means paperwork but not impossible
Can be had here also......
Valkyerie Arms DeLisle Page
Valkyrie Arms manufactures semi-automatic versions of military machine guns. The web site includes product descriptions and prices.
www.valkyriearms.com
Probably ITAR, it's a SBR so that'd add further registration and tax stamp, and if the barrel actually suppresses the sound, that'd be another obstacle to consider. But hot damn I want one even if it doesn't really work suppressed.
They're the ones I was talking about re: the Grease Gun and DeLisle. I'd forgotten they actually did suppressed ones too. Somewhat less sketchy now I look at their site again; I think I tried contacting them at the time and it kicked back as undeliverable, so that didn't do any favors for my opinion either, but I found some videos and reviews that suggest their DeLisles are quality and super-quiet as they should be. Questionable actual turnaround time vs what they'll quote you, though, based on some forum posts elsewhere. But I'd certainly go for one of their Grease Guns and have it SBR'd over a Auto-Ordnance Tommy gun if I heard enough good things, even more so if I could get it suppressed a la the OSS ones. Not sure if they'd be OK'd for WWII reenacting since it's an A1 without the cocking lever but I reckon they'd be fine for a MACV advisor or Army infantry Vietnam-era impression.
There appears to be at least one other domestic builder of DeLisles out there and I think the guy who did my retro AR-15 work has done one himself. Would certainly be a bit easier than getting one from New Zealand.
They're the ones I was talking about re: the Grease Gun and DeLisle. I'd forgotten they actually did suppressed ones too. Somewhat less sketchy now I look at their site again; I think I tried contacting them at the time and it kicked back as undeliverable, so that didn't do any favors for my opinion either, but I found some videos and reviews that suggest their DeLisles are quality and super-quiet as they should be. Questionable actual turnaround time vs what they'll quote you, though, based on some forum posts elsewhere. But I'd certainly go for one of their Grease Guns and have it SBR'd over a Auto-Ordnance Tommy gun if I heard enough good things, even more so if I could get it suppressed a la the OSS ones. Not sure if they'd be OK'd for WWII reenacting since it's an A1 without the cocking lever but I reckon they'd be fine for a MACV advisor or Army infantry Vietnam-era impression.
There appears to be at least one other domestic builder of DeLisles out there and I think the guy who did my retro AR-15 work has done one himself. Would certainly be a bit easier than getting one from New Zealand.
Reading Vakries FAQ page indicates to me they operate on their terms, not the customers - which is fine if their product is the quality of the bluster.
Could be they are trying to discourage tire kickers and dreamers.
Yeah, it could be that. If I was up there in Washington state with all the anti-gun crap that's been happening, I would have that attitude, too. But I for one wouldn't mind a longer turnaround if the quality of the product was worth it. I waited a year to get my AR-15 receivers from NoDak Spud, for example. But there's a difference between knowing it'll take a year out of the gate and being beaten around the bush for longer than you expect, or some such inconsistency. I'll have to look at the reviews etc again and see how old they are, for one thing. Plenty of places out there will have reviews from a decade ago that decry them as garbage but they could've significantly stepped up their game in the meantime. Either way, I'm all for better quality at risk of waiting longer for something, if it's that worthwhile to me. Did it with my AR and M14, will do it with the 1911 I have slated for the future, and a heap of other project ideas.
Making them CROWS compatible is not going to make them more accurate unless things have been seriously updated... The concept is solid but 100% speed: way too fucking fast, 50% speed: still to fucking fast, 10% speed, still too fast. 2% speed: too slow. Every time I had to do a gunnery with that thing I just popped the hatch on my tank and ran the .50 the old fashioned way.
Again I agree about machineguns but we are talking about an auto cannon here. I’m not sure it’s even able to be free gunned. What I am sure of is you aren’t going to hit with the first burst at 2000m without the CROWS tools.
