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MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
- Thread starter kwak
- Start date
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
There are several LOW quality .22LR rifles that can shoot MOA out to 100 yards, real competition .22 rifles can do much better.
I've seen several low budget combinations make it, cheapest one I know of is a Norinco JW-15 with BSA 36x scope in Leapers 1-piece rings/base shooting Wolf Extra. (Probably less $150-200 invested in that whole kit at the time)
Non-bolt action rifles will struggle though, comparatively. There are plenty of souped up 10/22s that will do as well, but not without expensive and fundamental modifications.
However, most rimfire smallbore competitive shooting is done at 25 and 50 yards, as the .22LR bullets are affected by wind MUCH more than other common centerfire calibers.
No .22LR is going to be able to hold MOA much farther than 100, again due to wind and poor ballistics of the caliber. There are very few organized shooting disclipines for this, as 22LR drop past 100 yards starts to be measured in feet instead of inches.
There are several LOW quality .22LR rifles that can shoot MOA out to 100 yards, real competition .22 rifles can do much better.
I've seen several low budget combinations make it, cheapest one I know of is a Norinco JW-15 with BSA 36x scope in Leapers 1-piece rings/base shooting Wolf Extra. (Probably less $150-200 invested in that whole kit at the time)
Non-bolt action rifles will struggle though, comparatively. There are plenty of souped up 10/22s that will do as well, but not without expensive and fundamental modifications.
However, most rimfire smallbore competitive shooting is done at 25 and 50 yards, as the .22LR bullets are affected by wind MUCH more than other common centerfire calibers.
No .22LR is going to be able to hold MOA much farther than 100, again due to wind and poor ballistics of the caliber. There are very few organized shooting disclipines for this, as 22LR drop past 100 yards starts to be measured in feet instead of inches.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
I have a Remington 581 that will shoot sub-MOA out to 150 yards (but it all goes to shit past that). Still holds minute of groundhog past that, but I couldn't tell you what kind of groups I was getting.
My 22 is zeroed for 50 yards. It's 7 MOA to 100 yards, 16 MOA to 150 yards, and 28 MOA to 200 yards
I have a Remington 581 that will shoot sub-MOA out to 150 yards (but it all goes to shit past that). Still holds minute of groundhog past that, but I couldn't tell you what kind of groups I was getting.
My 22 is zeroed for 50 yards. It's 7 MOA to 100 yards, 16 MOA to 150 yards, and 28 MOA to 200 yards
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
My Savage Mk II BTV has done it a couple of times... now I know the rifle can do it, just gotta work on the nut behind the trigger.
My Savage Mk II BTV has done it a couple of times... now I know the rifle can do it, just gotta work on the nut behind the trigger.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ivanthesane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My Savage Mk II BTV has done it a couple of times... now I know the rifle can do it, just gotta work on the nut behind the trigger.</div></div>
I have no doubts that the Savage MKII BTV is capable of MOA at 100 yards. I say this because I found out a week or so ago just what my son's BTV was capable of when shooting it at 100 yards from the bench off a Harris Bipod, and scored; (13-X's), (9-10's), (3-9's), for a 25 shot score of 247-13x on a TQ-4 100 yard target.
Yesterday he schooled me with his BTV at 100 yards off that same bench using his Bipod only while he shot several 5 shot - sub 1" to 1 1/8" groups, using those little 1" orange target dots like shown above. Oh, to be 17 again...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ivanthesane</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My Savage Mk II BTV has done it a couple of times... now I know the rifle can do it, just gotta work on the nut behind the trigger.</div></div>
I have no doubts that the Savage MKII BTV is capable of MOA at 100 yards. I say this because I found out a week or so ago just what my son's BTV was capable of when shooting it at 100 yards from the bench off a Harris Bipod, and scored; (13-X's), (9-10's), (3-9's), for a 25 shot score of 247-13x on a TQ-4 100 yard target.
Yesterday he schooled me with his BTV at 100 yards off that same bench using his Bipod only while he shot several 5 shot - sub 1" to 1 1/8" groups, using those little 1" orange target dots like shown above. Oh, to be 17 again...
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
+1 on the capabilities of the Savage Mark II BTV. Mine too can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards when I do my part.
Isn't it great to see a son take over where dad left off!
+1 on the capabilities of the Savage Mark II BTV. Mine too can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards when I do my part.
Isn't it great to see a son take over where dad left off!
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
To be honest, I'm considering taking a bench vise with me on a range trip, putting a towel in it for padding, and see what the rifle can do without me as part of the equation...
To be honest, I'm considering taking a bench vise with me on a range trip, putting a towel in it for padding, and see what the rifle can do without me as part of the equation...
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lachoneus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 on the capabilities of the Savage Mark II BTV. Mine too can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards when I do my part.
Isn't it great to see a son take over where dad left off! </div></div>
It sure is.
I do feel that .22's and ammo have come a long way since I was 17 yrs old, and our overall pursuit of accuracy (no matter what our age) with what is on the market today, just makes the game all that much more interesting. I think it's great to hear about, and see our youth out at the range shooting, and shooting good! What a great sport!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lachoneus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 on the capabilities of the Savage Mark II BTV. Mine too can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards when I do my part.
Isn't it great to see a son take over where dad left off! </div></div>
It sure is.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
All the really cheap 22 rimfires will shoot MOA all day long. Many of them will shoot sub MOA all day long. High dollar rigs are a waste of money. Besides there just isn't any reason to shoot MOA or better past 100yds.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3026318#Post3026318
All the really cheap 22 rimfires will shoot MOA all day long. Many of them will shoot sub MOA all day long. High dollar rigs are a waste of money. Besides there just isn't any reason to shoot MOA or better past 100yds.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3026318#Post3026318
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
i have shot sub moa groups at 100....even 150. And then same day, same ammo same rifle I will shoot 3MOA groups.
Nothing in this world tempts me to cherry pick targets like shooting rimfire at extended ranges.
I think if you find a rifle that YOU CAN shoot moa at 100+ more often than not, you should keep that rifle forever. I had one, an old H&R M-12 that I sold when they were cheap and I needed money. God I wish I had that rifle back.
The low muzzle velocity and often variable muzzle velocity of 22lr ammo means all of one's shortcomings and inconsistencies will really be magnified on paper at range..........and that's why we practice with them...lol
i have shot sub moa groups at 100....even 150. And then same day, same ammo same rifle I will shoot 3MOA groups.
Nothing in this world tempts me to cherry pick targets like shooting rimfire at extended ranges.
I think if you find a rifle that YOU CAN shoot moa at 100+ more often than not, you should keep that rifle forever. I had one, an old H&R M-12 that I sold when they were cheap and I needed money. God I wish I had that rifle back.
The low muzzle velocity and often variable muzzle velocity of 22lr ammo means all of one's shortcomings and inconsistencies will really be magnified on paper at range..........and that's why we practice with them...lol
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
ker2222 has it right. I shot rimfire benchrest for years. Still have the rifles and a drawer full of pins.
There were more guys who would brag about how well their 22's would shoot but they would never show up at a match. When they did funny thing their rifles just weren't shooting that day. We had to make a special class for the 10/22's just so they could win something.
A rifle that can shoot sub MOA With Wind Flags! is a real keeper. And buy more of that same ammo.
ker2222 has it right. I shot rimfire benchrest for years. Still have the rifles and a drawer full of pins.
There were more guys who would brag about how well their 22's would shoot but they would never show up at a match. When they did funny thing their rifles just weren't shooting that day. We had to make a special class for the 10/22's just so they could win something.
A rifle that can shoot sub MOA With Wind Flags! is a real keeper. And buy more of that same ammo.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
All sarcasm aside from my previous post. It is possible not probable.
We have reams of stats gleaned from our 22TSC match, and if you ask those who have shot this course, I think the consensus will indicate the toughest test they have ever put to their 22.
The cheapest rifle to ever win one of these matches was a Vostok if memory serves, and the Vostok is by no means a "cheap" rifle. It is built like a tank.
The surest way to find out if your rifle will shoot MOA is to try out numerous high end ammos. You are not going to find consistent MOA in a box of economy grade or bulk ammo. You may shoot an occasional cherry pick group out of a box of bulk, I have seen it, but cheap ammo is not consistent as a rule.
The cheapest rifle I have seen that would shoot "close enough" to MOA was in the $500 range, excluding of course the surplus Vostoks.
All sarcasm aside from my previous post. It is possible not probable.
We have reams of stats gleaned from our 22TSC match, and if you ask those who have shot this course, I think the consensus will indicate the toughest test they have ever put to their 22.
The cheapest rifle to ever win one of these matches was a Vostok if memory serves, and the Vostok is by no means a "cheap" rifle. It is built like a tank.
The surest way to find out if your rifle will shoot MOA is to try out numerous high end ammos. You are not going to find consistent MOA in a box of economy grade or bulk ammo. You may shoot an occasional cherry pick group out of a box of bulk, I have seen it, but cheap ammo is not consistent as a rule.
The cheapest rifle I have seen that would shoot "close enough" to MOA was in the $500 range, excluding of course the surplus Vostoks.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
My Anschutz 54MS with Lapua ammo it liked was as close to a MOA everyday rifle that I have owned. It took considerable wind adjustments to do it, it is now owned by a better shooter than me and still shoots this well.
A honest any time on demand MOA shooting rimfire is pretty rare.
My Anschutz 54MS with Lapua ammo it liked was as close to a MOA everyday rifle that I have owned. It took considerable wind adjustments to do it, it is now owned by a better shooter than me and still shoots this well.
A honest any time on demand MOA shooting rimfire is pretty rare.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
There are plenty of rifles that will do it pretty consistently with the right shooter and the right ammunition. Unfortunately, none of them are stock out of the box Savages, Marlins or CZs.
I'd say that the most reasonably priced (relatively speaking) way to get what you are asking about is to get some flavor of heavy barreled Anschutz based on a 54 action. Either that or a good example of a 40X.
The really big deal is the ammunition. Whenever I hear of someone claiming to be able to shoot MOA "all day long" with some sort of bulk ammunition, or even Wolf Match Target or SK Standard Plus, I'm really skeptical.
Of course, there's still the wind to think about. Reading wind at 100 yards is iffy at best. The range where I shoot a 100 yard rimfire match has such freaky wind conditions that you can't put enough flags out to see what the wind is really doing. At the last match I shot, I had one condition where my first flag was pointing off to the left. My last flag was pointing off to the right. One of the guys in the lane next to me had three flags out and his middle flag was standing almost straight up.
I'm shooting a 200 yard rimfire match this coming weekend. I have a 10/22 that shoots pretty well. It actually feeds Eley Black Box ammo and I just got in a new lot that clocks in at over 1080fps. I'm going to try the 10/22 with the notion that when I get a favorable condition, I'm just going to unload. We'll see how that works out. If it doesn't work out, I'll break out the 40X and see what I can salvage.
There are plenty of rifles that will do it pretty consistently with the right shooter and the right ammunition. Unfortunately, none of them are stock out of the box Savages, Marlins or CZs.
I'd say that the most reasonably priced (relatively speaking) way to get what you are asking about is to get some flavor of heavy barreled Anschutz based on a 54 action. Either that or a good example of a 40X.
The really big deal is the ammunition. Whenever I hear of someone claiming to be able to shoot MOA "all day long" with some sort of bulk ammunition, or even Wolf Match Target or SK Standard Plus, I'm really skeptical.
Of course, there's still the wind to think about. Reading wind at 100 yards is iffy at best. The range where I shoot a 100 yard rimfire match has such freaky wind conditions that you can't put enough flags out to see what the wind is really doing. At the last match I shot, I had one condition where my first flag was pointing off to the left. My last flag was pointing off to the right. One of the guys in the lane next to me had three flags out and his middle flag was standing almost straight up.
I'm shooting a 200 yard rimfire match this coming weekend. I have a 10/22 that shoots pretty well. It actually feeds Eley Black Box ammo and I just got in a new lot that clocks in at over 1080fps. I'm going to try the 10/22 with the notion that when I get a favorable condition, I'm just going to unload. We'll see how that works out. If it doesn't work out, I'll break out the 40X and see what I can salvage.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are plenty of rifles that will do it pretty consistently with the right shooter and the right ammunition. Unfortunately, none of them are stock out of the box Savages, Marlins or CZs.</div></div>
I tend to disagree. I have a Marlin 880 that will shoot rediculously small groups all day long ...... right out of the box, using Ely Sport (the cheap stuff).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are plenty of rifles that will do it pretty consistently with the right shooter and the right ammunition. Unfortunately, none of them are stock out of the box Savages, Marlins or CZs.</div></div>
I tend to disagree. I have a Marlin 880 that will shoot rediculously small groups all day long ...... right out of the box, using Ely Sport (the cheap stuff).
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
mutt, sorry man, but I'd have to see it to believe it.
mutt, sorry man, but I'd have to see it to believe it.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
Yeah, I'm going to have to say you're off the mark on this one Tony. My Savage Mark II will shoot MOA all day long at 100 yards with Wolf Match, Lapua Club, and SK Jaged. In fact, WhiteliftedZ71 and I were shooting that rifle out to 200 yards at Shoot-n-See cover up dots (about the size of a quarter), and baring the wind, we were hammering. Don't be fooled into thinking that budget 22LR rifles are not capable of extreme accuracy. It's been my experience that 22LR rifles are as a rule pretty fcuking accurate and the only real variables are the guy pulling the trigger and finding ammo that the rifle likes. Now I will admit that my Savage Mark II has been bedded into it's stock (by me), but that was a minor expense, and the only accurizing that rifle has seen.
As an interesting side note; I recently purchased a Sako Quad as a trainer. It's a really nice set up and I got a smokin' deal on it. It's petty much a spot on copy of my .260 Rem match rifle. However, it's not any more accurate than my Savage Mark II. I'll also point out that even though the Sako was a good deal, it's not as good a deal as that Savage is when we start measuring group size!
Yeah, I'm going to have to say you're off the mark on this one Tony. My Savage Mark II will shoot MOA all day long at 100 yards with Wolf Match, Lapua Club, and SK Jaged. In fact, WhiteliftedZ71 and I were shooting that rifle out to 200 yards at Shoot-n-See cover up dots (about the size of a quarter), and baring the wind, we were hammering. Don't be fooled into thinking that budget 22LR rifles are not capable of extreme accuracy. It's been my experience that 22LR rifles are as a rule pretty fcuking accurate and the only real variables are the guy pulling the trigger and finding ammo that the rifle likes. Now I will admit that my Savage Mark II has been bedded into it's stock (by me), but that was a minor expense, and the only accurizing that rifle has seen.
As an interesting side note; I recently purchased a Sako Quad as a trainer. It's a really nice set up and I got a smokin' deal on it. It's petty much a spot on copy of my .260 Rem match rifle. However, it's not any more accurate than my Savage Mark II. I'll also point out that even though the Sako was a good deal, it's not as good a deal as that Savage is when we start measuring group size!
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
"...all day long."
"....if I do my part."
You can now add:
"....right out of the box."
Phrases that make me go instantly deaf, to anything a person says afterwards. Usually heard in a "gunshop", now also very common on the internet.
"...all day long."
"....if I do my part."
You can now add:
"....right out of the box."
Phrases that make me go instantly deaf, to anything a person says afterwards. Usually heard in a "gunshop", now also very common on the internet.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
Interesting, because the only things that make me go deaf on this site are folks that either don't add anything to the conversation, or who simply don't know what it is they're blathering on about. Which one are you?
Interesting, because the only things that make me go deaf on this site are folks that either don't add anything to the conversation, or who simply don't know what it is they're blathering on about. Which one are you?
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
Sorry guys, it's not happening. Your rifle isn't the limiting factor. Even the best 22 ammo won't hold under 1 moa of vertical at 200 for an entire box of ammo, or "all day long". Internet shooters might be able to get under 1 moa at 100 yards, but 1 3-shot group out of 5 targets doesn't count.
The problem created by these super shooters is that everyone thinks their gun should do it and then they are disapointed when their Cricket won't put them all in one hole at 500 yards.
Sorry guys, it's not happening. Your rifle isn't the limiting factor. Even the best 22 ammo won't hold under 1 moa of vertical at 200 for an entire box of ammo, or "all day long". Internet shooters might be able to get under 1 moa at 100 yards, but 1 3-shot group out of 5 targets doesn't count.
The problem created by these super shooters is that everyone thinks their gun should do it and then they are disapointed when their Cricket won't put them all in one hole at 500 yards.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/
This is an interesting report on 22LR ammo. 55 brands were tested. In the 100 yard test, 5 shot groups were fired. Over half the ammo tested on this section (100 yards) grouped under 1 moa at 100 yards. I, like the guy that did this test, am not convinced that it's all in the rifle. I think ammo is a major factor in the accuracy of a 22 rifle. Finding a load that works, as in any rifle, is a major component in the accuracy game.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/
This is an interesting report on 22LR ammo. 55 brands were tested. In the 100 yard test, 5 shot groups were fired. Over half the ammo tested on this section (100 yards) grouped under 1 moa at 100 yards. I, like the guy that did this test, am not convinced that it's all in the rifle. I think ammo is a major factor in the accuracy of a 22 rifle. Finding a load that works, as in any rifle, is a major component in the accuracy game.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a gun with the right shooter and ammo that will shoot MOA?</div></div>
If high power airgunners can hold 1" at 100, what makes you think that a good rimmie in front of guy with the right concept in his head, with a Match load (that has a much higher BC than any pellet in existence) won't do sub 1" at the same distance???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a gun with the right shooter and ammo that will shoot MOA?</div></div>
If high power airgunners can hold 1" at 100, what makes you think that a good rimmie in front of guy with the right concept in his head, with a Match load (that has a much higher BC than any pellet in existence) won't do sub 1" at the same distance???
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are plenty of rifles that will do it pretty consistently with the right shooter and the right ammunition. Unfortunately, none of them are stock out of the box Savages, Marlins or CZs.</div></div>
I would also have to disagree with this. My Savage BTVS is consistently sub moa at 50 yards with wolf match target ammo. I havn't shot it nearly as much at 100 yards as I have at 50 but the groups I have shot at 100, some were right at or a little less than moa. In my mind, the rifle is capable of doing it, now as far as the shooter goes, not so much. I know I can't do it "all day long".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are plenty of rifles that will do it pretty consistently with the right shooter and the right ammunition. Unfortunately, none of them are stock out of the box Savages, Marlins or CZs.</div></div>
I would also have to disagree with this. My Savage BTVS is consistently sub moa at 50 yards with wolf match target ammo. I havn't shot it nearly as much at 100 yards as I have at 50 but the groups I have shot at 100, some were right at or a little less than moa. In my mind, the rifle is capable of doing it, now as far as the shooter goes, not so much. I know I can't do it "all day long".
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a gun with the right shooter and ammo that will shoot MOA? How far out can this be done with consistency?</div></div>
Sure, as far as you want, but it'll cost a small fortune...
You'll need:
1) Indoor range built to encompass the distance required.
(Need to prevent wind drift)
2) Concrete shooting bench in order to eliminate bench wobble.
(Cardboard jammed under one leg of a wood bench doesn't help accuracy)
3) Match grade rifle from the manufacturer/builder of your choice.
4) Dedicated target scope with minimum of 32x zoom to see the bullseye at distance.
(Hard to hit what you can't see clearly!)
5) A Lead Sled to minimize human error.
(I'm an expert on human error, self taught)
6) The most consistent 22lr ammunition available (think expensive)
Lucky for me, squirrels can be taken at distances of less than 100 feet.
Beyond 100 feet it starts to get hard to see 'em in the brush.
So anything that can put a subsonic round inside a 3/4 inch diameter circle
at 100 feet or less, works just fine for my needs.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a gun with the right shooter and ammo that will shoot MOA? How far out can this be done with consistency?</div></div>
Sure, as far as you want, but it'll cost a small fortune...
You'll need:
1) Indoor range built to encompass the distance required.
(Need to prevent wind drift)
2) Concrete shooting bench in order to eliminate bench wobble.
(Cardboard jammed under one leg of a wood bench doesn't help accuracy)
3) Match grade rifle from the manufacturer/builder of your choice.
4) Dedicated target scope with minimum of 32x zoom to see the bullseye at distance.
(Hard to hit what you can't see clearly!)
5) A Lead Sled to minimize human error.
(I'm an expert on human error, self taught)
6) The most consistent 22lr ammunition available (think expensive)
Lucky for me, squirrels can be taken at distances of less than 100 feet.
Beyond 100 feet it starts to get hard to see 'em in the brush.
So anything that can put a subsonic round inside a 3/4 inch diameter circle
at 100 feet or less, works just fine for my needs.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
5, 10 and 20 round groups at 100yds (CZ455/Lilja) </div></div>
This is the best response to the OP's first question. It shows that the right shooter, "doing his part" and using the stated rifle and the ammunition combination, placed 35 shots at 100 yards under 1 MOA. So the answer to the first question is "yes." Whether others think another .22LR rifle/ammunition/shooter combination can or cannot shoot MOA at a 100 yards is interesting, but inconclusive. Evidence is what counts.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
5, 10 and 20 round groups at 100yds (CZ455/Lilja) </div></div>
This is the best response to the OP's first question. It shows that the right shooter, "doing his part" and using the stated rifle and the ammunition combination, placed 35 shots at 100 yards under 1 MOA. So the answer to the first question is "yes." Whether others think another .22LR rifle/ammunition/shooter combination can or cannot shoot MOA at a 100 yards is interesting, but inconclusive. Evidence is what counts.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
Yes he did end up with a sub-moa rifle
but it took some work to get there...
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3271205#Post3271205
Yes he did end up with a sub-moa rifle
but it took some work to get there...
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3271205#Post3271205
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
Agreed. And the link you posted should be very helpful to the OP in determining how he might wish to proceed.
Agreed. And the link you posted should be very helpful to the OP in determining how he might wish to proceed.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/</div></div>
This test thread is fantastic. Thank you for the link. Lately I have been having better luck with CCI Std than SK or the Federal Gold Medal I used to use. Frankly, the SK / Wolf stuff has been a disappointment. It is twice the cost of the CCI Std. and has not performed as well. I think I will have switched completely to CCI Std in the next month or so when my remaining Federal and SK are exhausted. It is very affordable by the brick. All of this seems to be very tricky to figure out as I have noticed a great deal of variance from brick to brick of the ammunition I have shot a lot. The last Federal brick I had always grouped under 1.5" at 100 yards and often under 1.25". This one is terrible at more than 2". It is entirely possible that I have a good batch of CCI and a bad SK batch. Not easy to figure these things out.
As for the sub MOA discussion. My Anschutz 54 will not do it consistently with the ammunition I feed it and I am not willing to spend the money to find out if it will do it with top shelf fodder. It does not matter to me. I will never shoot stuff that costs that much anyway. I find that, with a good batch of mid ranged ammo from the above types and good weather (ie moderate temperature and negligible wind) most groups are between 1" and 1.25" almost none are below this and surprisingly few are above.
By the way, my wife's CZ 452 will never do sub moa regardless of the ammo, wind, or shooter. I expect that, shy of adding an aftermarket Lilja barrel, it never will. It doesn't shoot poorly by any stretch, it is just not in that league. I also once had a Savage MK II. I have my doubts about any of those shooting groups that would impress anybody.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/</div></div>
This test thread is fantastic. Thank you for the link. Lately I have been having better luck with CCI Std than SK or the Federal Gold Medal I used to use. Frankly, the SK / Wolf stuff has been a disappointment. It is twice the cost of the CCI Std. and has not performed as well. I think I will have switched completely to CCI Std in the next month or so when my remaining Federal and SK are exhausted. It is very affordable by the brick. All of this seems to be very tricky to figure out as I have noticed a great deal of variance from brick to brick of the ammunition I have shot a lot. The last Federal brick I had always grouped under 1.5" at 100 yards and often under 1.25". This one is terrible at more than 2". It is entirely possible that I have a good batch of CCI and a bad SK batch. Not easy to figure these things out.
As for the sub MOA discussion. My Anschutz 54 will not do it consistently with the ammunition I feed it and I am not willing to spend the money to find out if it will do it with top shelf fodder. It does not matter to me. I will never shoot stuff that costs that much anyway. I find that, with a good batch of mid ranged ammo from the above types and good weather (ie moderate temperature and negligible wind) most groups are between 1" and 1.25" almost none are below this and surprisingly few are above.
By the way, my wife's CZ 452 will never do sub moa regardless of the ammo, wind, or shooter. I expect that, shy of adding an aftermarket Lilja barrel, it never will. It doesn't shoot poorly by any stretch, it is just not in that league. I also once had a Savage MK II. I have my doubts about any of those shooting groups that would impress anybody.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes he did end up with a sub-moa rifle
but it took some work to get there...
</div></div>
LOL yes it did. I almost threw the sucker across the garage the first time out! In the end it worked out to be an exceptionaly accurate rifle even with more budget priced ammunition (Fed and AE). Bedding was the key to closing the groups with this particular rifle due to the .90x21" barrel.
Fast forward to present...I decided that I had too much (money) wrapped up in the 455 and I really wanted the Klinsky stock. These days I am shooting a 452 Varmint in a Klinsky stock that will shoot right about an inch at 100 but rarely any better, I am happy with that and expected as much so no complaints. The odd thing with the 452 compared to the 455/Lilja is that it seems to shoot most things about the same regardless of quality, even the 15.00/box ammo shoots about the same as blazer. Still I cant shrink it down to where the 455 was at. The 455 on the other hand certainly let me know what ammo it did and didnt like.
Anyways back to the topic at hand simple answer yes its possible however most often not going to happen with an unmodified 200.00 rifle and a box of bulk packed Blaser.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes he did end up with a sub-moa rifle
but it took some work to get there...
LOL yes it did. I almost threw the sucker across the garage the first time out! In the end it worked out to be an exceptionaly accurate rifle even with more budget priced ammunition (Fed and AE). Bedding was the key to closing the groups with this particular rifle due to the .90x21" barrel.
Fast forward to present...I decided that I had too much (money) wrapped up in the 455 and I really wanted the Klinsky stock. These days I am shooting a 452 Varmint in a Klinsky stock that will shoot right about an inch at 100 but rarely any better, I am happy with that and expected as much so no complaints. The odd thing with the 452 compared to the 455/Lilja is that it seems to shoot most things about the same regardless of quality, even the 15.00/box ammo shoots about the same as blazer. Still I cant shrink it down to where the 455 was at. The 455 on the other hand certainly let me know what ammo it did and didnt like.
Anyways back to the topic at hand simple answer yes its possible however most often not going to happen with an unmodified 200.00 rifle and a box of bulk packed Blaser.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes he did end up with a sub-moa rifle
but it took some work to get there...
</div></div>
LOL yes it did. I almost threw the sucker across the garage the first time out! In the end it worked out to be an exceptionaly accurate rifle even with more budget priced ammunition (Fed and AE). Bedding was the key to closing the groups with this particular rifle due to the .90x21" barrel.
Fast forward to present...I decided that I had too much (money) wrapped up in the 455 and I really wanted the Klinsky stock. These days I am shooting a 452 Varmint in a Klinsky stock that will shoot right about an inch at 100 but rarely any better, I am happy with that and expected as much so no complaints. The odd thing with the 452 compared to the 455/Lilja is that it seems to shoot most things about the same regardless of quality, even the 15.00/box ammo shoots about the same as blazer. Still I cant shrink it down to where the 455 was at. The 455 on the other hand certainly let me know what ammo it did and didnt like.
Anyways back to the topic at hand simple answer yes its possible however most often not going to happen with an unmodified 200.00 rifle and a box of bulk packed Blaser. </div></div>
How much did bedding tighten up your groups?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes he did end up with a sub-moa rifle
but it took some work to get there...
LOL yes it did. I almost threw the sucker across the garage the first time out! In the end it worked out to be an exceptionaly accurate rifle even with more budget priced ammunition (Fed and AE). Bedding was the key to closing the groups with this particular rifle due to the .90x21" barrel.
Fast forward to present...I decided that I had too much (money) wrapped up in the 455 and I really wanted the Klinsky stock. These days I am shooting a 452 Varmint in a Klinsky stock that will shoot right about an inch at 100 but rarely any better, I am happy with that and expected as much so no complaints. The odd thing with the 452 compared to the 455/Lilja is that it seems to shoot most things about the same regardless of quality, even the 15.00/box ammo shoots about the same as blazer. Still I cant shrink it down to where the 455 was at. The 455 on the other hand certainly let me know what ammo it did and didnt like.
Anyways back to the topic at hand simple answer yes its possible however most often not going to happen with an unmodified 200.00 rifle and a box of bulk packed Blaser. </div></div>
How much did bedding tighten up your groups?
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
Bedding can make a drastic difference in the accuracy of the rifle. One of the few exceptions I've seen is guys shooting with McMillan stocks. Some of them never had their actions bedded and their rifles shot really well, nonetheless.
As for you guys shooting MOA and better with the likes Wolf, I sure wish that I could get my hands on some of the lot numbers that you guys have.
With this latest lot that we got, four master class shooters shot out of the box zeros. You could hear when it happened.
Bedding can make a drastic difference in the accuracy of the rifle. One of the few exceptions I've seen is guys shooting with McMillan stocks. Some of them never had their actions bedded and their rifles shot really well, nonetheless.
As for you guys shooting MOA and better with the likes Wolf, I sure wish that I could get my hands on some of the lot numbers that you guys have.
With this latest lot that we got, four master class shooters shot out of the box zeros. You could hear when it happened.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
Having a cheap Savage that shoots well is a point of pride for some.
Having a cheap Savage that shoots well is a point of pride for some.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much did bedding tighten up your groups?</div></div>
Before bedding...
After bedding action and barrel...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much did bedding tighten up your groups?</div></div>
Before bedding...
After bedding action and barrel...
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
If you buy a cheap Savage and it shoots well, you still have a cheap Savage that shoots well. We have been reduced to channeling Yogi Berra on this thread. Well that's it for me, I'm out here.
If you buy a cheap Savage and it shoots well, you still have a cheap Savage that shoots well. We have been reduced to channeling Yogi Berra on this thread. Well that's it for me, I'm out here.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tman300wm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting, because the only things that make me go deaf on this site are folks that either don't add anything to the conversation, or who simply don't know what it is they're blathering on about. Which one are you?
</div></div>
I didn't just throw a barb out there. I have added to the conversation and provided a link to the match of which I am the assistant match director. This is not some informal gathering of mouth breathers shooting each month scooter. I have stats on every score shot and every rifle used to accomplish the feat. I have seen the Savages come and I have seen them go. To be fair I have seen CZ's come and go as well. Yes the shooter is a factor but when a guy that can shoot shows up with a Savage it is immediately apparent in his score. When you have a ton of info available, to compare and compress on so many different shooters and equipment, you can make bold statements and know WTF you are talking about when you do.
The match that we run is predicated on being able to shoot MOA. If you can shoot MOA all day long then you can clean the course...it hasn't been cleaned yet, despite there being a cash bounty.
Yes I am opinionated but I have one hell of a lot of data in this case to form my opinion, thus making it pretty damn close to a fact that MOA "all day long" rifles are as scarce as hens teeth "out of the box".
I did not say it couldn't be done I said it was improbable. Savage owners always get a mashed moomoo when anyone questions their rifles' honest to God abilities.
As was said above, peolple read this stuff and go out and buy brand x or brand y and say,"Well they said this rifle will shoot MOA." That is my problem with crap like this. I have met, and competed with, a lot of disapointed rimfiire Savage owners...just sayin.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tman300wm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting, because the only things that make me go deaf on this site are folks that either don't add anything to the conversation, or who simply don't know what it is they're blathering on about. Which one are you?
</div></div>
I didn't just throw a barb out there. I have added to the conversation and provided a link to the match of which I am the assistant match director. This is not some informal gathering of mouth breathers shooting each month scooter. I have stats on every score shot and every rifle used to accomplish the feat. I have seen the Savages come and I have seen them go. To be fair I have seen CZ's come and go as well. Yes the shooter is a factor but when a guy that can shoot shows up with a Savage it is immediately apparent in his score. When you have a ton of info available, to compare and compress on so many different shooters and equipment, you can make bold statements and know WTF you are talking about when you do.
The match that we run is predicated on being able to shoot MOA. If you can shoot MOA all day long then you can clean the course...it hasn't been cleaned yet, despite there being a cash bounty.
Yes I am opinionated but I have one hell of a lot of data in this case to form my opinion, thus making it pretty damn close to a fact that MOA "all day long" rifles are as scarce as hens teeth "out of the box".
I did not say it couldn't be done I said it was improbable. Savage owners always get a mashed moomoo when anyone questions their rifles' honest to God abilities.
As was said above, peolple read this stuff and go out and buy brand x or brand y and say,"Well they said this rifle will shoot MOA." That is my problem with crap like this. I have met, and competed with, a lot of disapointed rimfiire Savage owners...just sayin.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...all day long."
"....if I do my part."
You can now add:
"....right out of the box."
Phrases that make me go instantly deaf, to anything a person says afterwards. Usually heard in a "gunshop", now also very common on the internet. </div></div>
I understand your frustration with claims that a shooter can achieve stellar accuracy "all day long" using a rifle "right out of the box." Like the competition you linked to, service rifle competition is keyed to shooting MOA and anyone who could shoot MOA all day long in those competitions would always be at the top of the scoreboard. Since even the best competitors (using refined equipment) frequently trade the top spot in those competitions, it is clear that claims to be able to shoot MOA all day long with a box stock rifle are extremely improbable.
I am puzzled, though, by your objection to a shooter acknowledging that if he does not "do his part," even the best rifle/ammunition combo will show low accuracy potential. Care to elaborate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...all day long."
"....if I do my part."
You can now add:
"....right out of the box."
Phrases that make me go instantly deaf, to anything a person says afterwards. Usually heard in a "gunshop", now also very common on the internet. </div></div>
I understand your frustration with claims that a shooter can achieve stellar accuracy "all day long" using a rifle "right out of the box." Like the competition you linked to, service rifle competition is keyed to shooting MOA and anyone who could shoot MOA all day long in those competitions would always be at the top of the scoreboard. Since even the best competitors (using refined equipment) frequently trade the top spot in those competitions, it is clear that claims to be able to shoot MOA all day long with a box stock rifle are extremely improbable.
I am puzzled, though, by your objection to a shooter acknowledging that if he does not "do his part," even the best rifle/ammunition combo will show low accuracy potential. Care to elaborate?
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lachoneus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Care to elaborate? </div></div>
I won't bother. Obviously some folks are biased but that's internet. However, I have met, shot with, and just beat a dissapointed CZ guy with my <span style="font-style: italic">out of box</span> Savage on a local Match...and yes, <span style="font-style: italic">I did my part</span> and he didn't since it would be stupid to blame such a fine rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lachoneus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Care to elaborate? </div></div>
I won't bother. Obviously some folks are biased but that's internet. However, I have met, shot with, and just beat a dissapointed CZ guy with my <span style="font-style: italic">out of box</span> Savage on a local Match...and yes, <span style="font-style: italic">I did my part</span> and he didn't since it would be stupid to blame such a fine rifle.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
armorpl8chikn...boy, I so agree with you.
I can only imagine how many new shooters have given up the sport, or become very frustrated because they can't achieve the sub 1MOA groups that so many on the 'net claim can be done 'all day long' with their box stock rifle.
I nearly fell into it myself. Early this year I stepped up from air rifles to rimfires, purchasing a Savage 93FVSS. Did all the simple stuff...adjusted the trigger, torqued the stock screws, put a decent scope on it and headed to the range expecting instant 1MOA groups (100m) like everyone on the internet claimed I'd be able to do all the live long day.
But damned if a good days average for eight 5 shot groups was around 1.25-1.5"
Was getting mildly frustrated till I started reading deeper and found that there were a few posts, from very knowledgeable sounding posters who wrote as you have.
Then I started to notice that a lot of shooters at the range were getting groups no better, or worse than I...and there were a lot of 'gee, she's just not shooting today' kinda excuses.
Again...it is a sore point with me. I persevered, but I do wonder how many people give up on the sport because exaggerated bragging is so common on the 'net.
armorpl8chikn...boy, I so agree with you.
I can only imagine how many new shooters have given up the sport, or become very frustrated because they can't achieve the sub 1MOA groups that so many on the 'net claim can be done 'all day long' with their box stock rifle.
I nearly fell into it myself. Early this year I stepped up from air rifles to rimfires, purchasing a Savage 93FVSS. Did all the simple stuff...adjusted the trigger, torqued the stock screws, put a decent scope on it and headed to the range expecting instant 1MOA groups (100m) like everyone on the internet claimed I'd be able to do all the live long day.
But damned if a good days average for eight 5 shot groups was around 1.25-1.5"
Was getting mildly frustrated till I started reading deeper and found that there were a few posts, from very knowledgeable sounding posters who wrote as you have.
Then I started to notice that a lot of shooters at the range were getting groups no better, or worse than I...and there were a lot of 'gee, she's just not shooting today' kinda excuses.
Again...it is a sore point with me. I persevered, but I do wonder how many people give up on the sport because exaggerated bragging is so common on the 'net.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
I personally don't know anyone who has given up shooting altogether because a given firearm did not live up to its billing on the internet.
On the other hand, I know a lot of shooters (myself included) who have traded away or put a lot of money into fixing a perfectly good firearm they were not yet able to shoot up to its potential.
Years ago, I had an M1 Garand accurized by Derrick Martin. It shot great for awhile, but then I thought the accuracy was degrading. I took it back to Derrick for a checkup. He took the rifle and the ammunition I was shooting, set a target out a 100 yards, got in the prone position, and shot a clip. The group was right at the 1" mark. He stood up and said, "There's nothing wrong with the rifle or your ammunition. Let's talk about your technique." I learned a lot that day, and not just about the capabilities of that particular rifle.
I guess the moral is that you need to guard against exaggerated claims for both the shooter and the rifle.
I personally don't know anyone who has given up shooting altogether because a given firearm did not live up to its billing on the internet.
On the other hand, I know a lot of shooters (myself included) who have traded away or put a lot of money into fixing a perfectly good firearm they were not yet able to shoot up to its potential.
Years ago, I had an M1 Garand accurized by Derrick Martin. It shot great for awhile, but then I thought the accuracy was degrading. I took it back to Derrick for a checkup. He took the rifle and the ammunition I was shooting, set a target out a 100 yards, got in the prone position, and shot a clip. The group was right at the 1" mark. He stood up and said, "There's nothing wrong with the rifle or your ammunition. Let's talk about your technique." I learned a lot that day, and not just about the capabilities of that particular rifle.
I guess the moral is that you need to guard against exaggerated claims for both the shooter and the rifle.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
No no no, I don't think people are quiting the sport. And for the record I believe there are very few rimfires made today that aren't adequate for some niche. You don't need an Anschutz to squirrel hunt. I do believe there are a lot of guys spending Anschutz money, to try and squeeze olympic grade accuracy out of a $300 rifle. Ain't gonna happen. As I have already alluded to; the only cheap rifle I know of, capable of unbelievable accuracy is the Vostok. Good luck finding one, as they are drying up and going up(in price).
"if I do my part":
Yeah I know...its just usually attached to other buzzwords I can't stand. There is no question that a shooter can have a good day or a bad day. I have shot formal competition for a long time and I still have to kick myself in the ass on a regular basis. All the things that must be done without error to succeed in competition is just too poorly described by "doing your part".
No no no, I don't think people are quiting the sport. And for the record I believe there are very few rimfires made today that aren't adequate for some niche. You don't need an Anschutz to squirrel hunt. I do believe there are a lot of guys spending Anschutz money, to try and squeeze olympic grade accuracy out of a $300 rifle. Ain't gonna happen. As I have already alluded to; the only cheap rifle I know of, capable of unbelievable accuracy is the Vostok. Good luck finding one, as they are drying up and going up(in price).
"if I do my part":
Yeah I know...its just usually attached to other buzzwords I can't stand. There is no question that a shooter can have a good day or a bad day. I have shot formal competition for a long time and I still have to kick myself in the ass on a regular basis. All the things that must be done without error to succeed in competition is just too poorly described by "doing your part".
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I do believe there are a lot of guys spending Anschutz money, to try and squeeze olympic grade accuracy out of a $300 rifle. Ain't gonna happen.
There is no question that a shooter can have a good day or a bad day. I have shot formal competition for a long time and I still have to kick myself in the ass on a regular basis.
</div></div>
Amen, brother -- on both counts.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I do believe there are a lot of guys spending Anschutz money, to try and squeeze olympic grade accuracy out of a $300 rifle. Ain't gonna happen.
There is no question that a shooter can have a good day or a bad day. I have shot formal competition for a long time and I still have to kick myself in the ass on a regular basis.
</div></div>
Amen, brother -- on both counts.
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
A tight 100 yard shooter is pretty rare and just about NEVER box stock at any price. Why?
How much QC really goes into a stock $200-350 rifle? Not a whole lot.
How great is a mass-produced stock barrel? The top competitors shoot the top barrels (Lilja, Broughton, etc...) which cost more than the entire box stock riles being discussed. And even they have issues holding MOA at 100 "all day long." Add to that additional things like barrel tuners and bedding.
What box-stock trigger is worth a damn? Savage isn't too bad, but still far from a tuned out trigger.
The ammo issue has been discussed ad nauseum and that is a great article linked above. Ammo is key, period. The article gives great starting points but the bottom line is that the ammo needs to match the specific barrel/gun.
My 40X has over 1,000 logged 5-shot groups and the average is 1.17". I've invited several "all day long" people out to prove it and have yet to see it. Must've been the wrong day or maybe they had one too many Monster Energy drinks that day?
chikn is one of my favorite guys here. We've been in discussions on this on numerous occassions and preach the same thing. Consistant 1 MOA rifles at 100 yards exist. But they are rare and when you have one, keep it!
~ Rico
A tight 100 yard shooter is pretty rare and just about NEVER box stock at any price. Why?
How much QC really goes into a stock $200-350 rifle? Not a whole lot.
How great is a mass-produced stock barrel? The top competitors shoot the top barrels (Lilja, Broughton, etc...) which cost more than the entire box stock riles being discussed. And even they have issues holding MOA at 100 "all day long." Add to that additional things like barrel tuners and bedding.
What box-stock trigger is worth a damn? Savage isn't too bad, but still far from a tuned out trigger.
The ammo issue has been discussed ad nauseum and that is a great article linked above. Ammo is key, period. The article gives great starting points but the bottom line is that the ammo needs to match the specific barrel/gun.
My 40X has over 1,000 logged 5-shot groups and the average is 1.17". I've invited several "all day long" people out to prove it and have yet to see it. Must've been the wrong day or maybe they had one too many Monster Energy drinks that day?
chikn is one of my favorite guys here. We've been in discussions on this on numerous occassions and preach the same thing. Consistant 1 MOA rifles at 100 yards exist. But they are rare and when you have one, keep it!
~ Rico
Re: MOA at 100 yards is it possible with a 22lr?
I had to take my elderly mother to town and had to cut my last response short.
Shooter, rifle, and ammo all things perfect can it be done consistently and at what range.
50yds pretty easy.
100yds occasionally.
150yds occasionally on a really calm day.
200yds rarely on a calm day, and when all the cosmic tumblers click in place.
Shooter: The biggest factor I admit and never denied. Most shooters I have seen that went from a Savage or CZ to an Anschutz had a marked improvement in their score. Maybe partly due to the Crash Davis analogy I often quote:
"If you believe you're playing well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, then you *are*! And you should know that!"
I believe mostly due to the fact that they spent $1200 on an actual olympic grade rifle.
I have a rare oportunity to study as many as 40 shooters each month March thru Octobe, and study them I do. I have coached many who want advice and I have watched a few flounder in spite of good advice. There are a few that do not want to be told what they are doing wrong. I will stick by what a first mate once told me on a gulf stream charter. I asked him what kind of people he liked to fish with the most. He never batted an eye,"women and children." He said they listen because they don't already know everything. He said most men's egos demand that they at least act like they have done this a thousand times. If they own a boat even worse. I wish I could tell you my experiences with this little phenomenon in shooting matches. I cannot tell you the stories because too many people would know exactly who I am talking about. I would encourage you to have fun first and foremost. When you have truly done the best you can do you will know better than me. I can only tell you what it feels like. When you shoot a relay, or a stage in a match or just hammered out a group you should feel some physical drain. I have shot relays and could barely get back to my feet, or stand on my feet, etc, depending on what position I shot from. It means you have shut off the static of life and there is nothing in the world but you, the rifle and the target. You aren't thinking about the next relay, whats for lunch, how many points you shot the last relay, what the guy you want to beat is doing, whether your wife is cheating on you, etc etc ad nauseum. Think of it like this; If you are shooting 40 shots in a match it is not a 40 shot match, it is 40 one shot matches. When you concentrate in that manner you are on your way to success.
Another reference to Bull Durham I know, but when Crash gets in the batters box and his mind gets to rambling he calls "time" after litterally telling himself to get the crap out of his head, great scene. When we get in the "batters box" and our mind rambles call time and clear the mind before you squeeze the trigger.
Ammo:
Forget the bargain bin. I see great shooters every month who won't pay the price for true match grade ammo. Be prepared to spend a small fortune if you want ultimate rimfire accuracy. When you find a great ammo and a great lot number, buy all you can stand to buy. That is the oldest rimfire advice in existence, a no brainer. We have a guy that shoots with us that still has some of the dimple Federal, and he has won a lot of cash at our matches including last years championship. Lucky for the rest of us his supply is running low
A common mistake I have seen is guys that use one brand for 57yds and another brand for 112,163 and 210/240yds. This is a huge mistake. You cannot mix and match lubes and not expect some "strange" results. If you want to shoot R-50 at 50 and then maybe Fed. 922A at longer disatances that is fine, they have the same lube and both are made by RWS. Lapua has teh broadest range of like lubes,all Wolf,SK, and Lapua Center X, same lube. I call it eel snot. I think Midas is the same as well...not sure never bought any. Just stick with the same lube no matter what unless you are gonna clean your rifle or put a lot of fouler shots down the bore.
Rifle:
You don't want to hear this. Generally the more you spend the more accuracy you will get. You have to decide what each minimal gain is worth to you, for your application. I have seen very few rifles that were not adequate for hunting out to 50 yds. I have also seen few rifles adequate for hunting at and past 100yds, 22lr mind you. Would I shoot a rabbit at 125 yds with my Anschutz? Damn right I would, if of course I knew the exact range and was confident with conditions. Not in an unknown amount of crosswind, no. You will get what you pay for. Only you can decide what you need in a rifle. If you need the ultimate in accuracy don't expect to find it at Wally World.
I had to take my elderly mother to town and had to cut my last response short.
Shooter, rifle, and ammo all things perfect can it be done consistently and at what range.
50yds pretty easy.
100yds occasionally.
150yds occasionally on a really calm day.
200yds rarely on a calm day, and when all the cosmic tumblers click in place.
Shooter: The biggest factor I admit and never denied. Most shooters I have seen that went from a Savage or CZ to an Anschutz had a marked improvement in their score. Maybe partly due to the Crash Davis analogy I often quote:
"If you believe you're playing well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, then you *are*! And you should know that!"
I believe mostly due to the fact that they spent $1200 on an actual olympic grade rifle.
I have a rare oportunity to study as many as 40 shooters each month March thru Octobe, and study them I do. I have coached many who want advice and I have watched a few flounder in spite of good advice. There are a few that do not want to be told what they are doing wrong. I will stick by what a first mate once told me on a gulf stream charter. I asked him what kind of people he liked to fish with the most. He never batted an eye,"women and children." He said they listen because they don't already know everything. He said most men's egos demand that they at least act like they have done this a thousand times. If they own a boat even worse. I wish I could tell you my experiences with this little phenomenon in shooting matches. I cannot tell you the stories because too many people would know exactly who I am talking about. I would encourage you to have fun first and foremost. When you have truly done the best you can do you will know better than me. I can only tell you what it feels like. When you shoot a relay, or a stage in a match or just hammered out a group you should feel some physical drain. I have shot relays and could barely get back to my feet, or stand on my feet, etc, depending on what position I shot from. It means you have shut off the static of life and there is nothing in the world but you, the rifle and the target. You aren't thinking about the next relay, whats for lunch, how many points you shot the last relay, what the guy you want to beat is doing, whether your wife is cheating on you, etc etc ad nauseum. Think of it like this; If you are shooting 40 shots in a match it is not a 40 shot match, it is 40 one shot matches. When you concentrate in that manner you are on your way to success.
Another reference to Bull Durham I know, but when Crash gets in the batters box and his mind gets to rambling he calls "time" after litterally telling himself to get the crap out of his head, great scene. When we get in the "batters box" and our mind rambles call time and clear the mind before you squeeze the trigger.
Ammo:
Forget the bargain bin. I see great shooters every month who won't pay the price for true match grade ammo. Be prepared to spend a small fortune if you want ultimate rimfire accuracy. When you find a great ammo and a great lot number, buy all you can stand to buy. That is the oldest rimfire advice in existence, a no brainer. We have a guy that shoots with us that still has some of the dimple Federal, and he has won a lot of cash at our matches including last years championship. Lucky for the rest of us his supply is running low
Rifle:
You don't want to hear this. Generally the more you spend the more accuracy you will get. You have to decide what each minimal gain is worth to you, for your application. I have seen very few rifles that were not adequate for hunting out to 50 yds. I have also seen few rifles adequate for hunting at and past 100yds, 22lr mind you. Would I shoot a rabbit at 125 yds with my Anschutz? Damn right I would, if of course I knew the exact range and was confident with conditions. Not in an unknown amount of crosswind, no. You will get what you pay for. Only you can decide what you need in a rifle. If you need the ultimate in accuracy don't expect to find it at Wally World.
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