Rifle Scopes More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

Spuhr

Spuhr

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 25, 2009
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www.spuhr.com
#1
Hello

This is my first thread on this forum and I am looking for some ideas and advices.
I have made a number of prototypes for a new sniper scopemount.

The reason for this new mount is certain problems I have seen with current solutions.
The main problem as I have seen here in Europe where the PMll is the most common scope is partly the fact that the "ears" for the screws on the rings covers the vindage and parallax turrets and the lack of tube space for additional assesories.
The PMll has extremely short tube, and that is cousing problems on certain guns when there is a need for an angle cousine indicator.
A big issue for some countries have been that loads of scopes have been damaged during recoil from heavyer calibers, so my intenion is to have a stiff mount supporting the scope.



The first problems with the "screw ears" was solved by turning the split in 45 degrees.
img4abd099ecb7bc.jpg

img4ab2a130591c2.jpg

The advantage is that it's now possible to see the low turrets on the PMll, as well as on other models.
Another positive thing is that the shooter gets vertical and horisontal lines, that will work as an small aid for him to not have the gun rotated when shooting.

The problem about the short tube with difficultis for additional assesories was solved by a number of interface surfaces. On those prototypes there is five interface surfaces, but I have planned two more on the front ring, one 12 o'clock and one 3 o'clock.
The rings are made very long to support the scope as much as possible during recoil and handling.
img4abd0d8f2a49c.jpg

img4abd09905d8d5.jpg

img4ab2a29cc7f57.jpg


The ideas is to have easy mounting for extra sights, angle cousing indicators, lasers etc. I have yet not made a solution for the Simrad NV device, but it's coming.

img4ab2a49d69fd2.jpg

img4abcfd5e31810.jpg

img4abd0d5d64c23.jpg

img4ab2a0a978835.jpg


Another problem with snipersights is the rotation.
And its always difficult to adjust the scope rotation.
So I have machined a 10 degree slant in the base, and is using a 10 degree gauge to get the rotation right.
The point about this is that a number of manufactures such as S&B, Hensoldt and Nightforce have their flat under the turrets indexed to the reticle and the turrets.
img4ab2a14767d1c.jpg


Instead of having a separate level I have so far included the level in the mount. In this one (on a DSR bullpup sniping rifle) the mount is that high that you can see it with your right eye, but in all other height you can easly see it with your left eye.
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I have planned to make separate rings as well, as those bases are building height. It doesent matter when it comes to AR rifles and a lot of the seriouse sniping rifles, but when using a Remington or simliar rifle it does matter a lot and the height should be keept down.
But there is not separate rings finniched yet.

So my question to the members are :
What do you think?
Is there any other "whistle and Bells" that is missing?
Is here anything that is considered as unneccesary?

Those mounts have yet not reached production.
When they are in production, I am not going to do any direct civilian sale, and all sales are going through dealers, so this is not any advertisement.
If this thread is violating the rules by any means I donät mind at all to have it corrected or removed.


Håkan Spuhr



 
#3
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

Very Very cool. I like the idea. What will the cost be when its all said and done?(Roughly)

Great first post.
 
#5
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

The mount will be made out of 7075 Aluminium.
The 7075 is of considerably higher quality than 6061 and it seems like noone is accepting to extrude it for me.
Reason for this is that extrusion of 7075 is very difficult though the material is extremely hard.
Though noone wants to extrude it, it has to be machined in one piece, and that is fairly expensive.
I am guessing a price around 350-400 Dollars, but that is just a very rough estimate so far.

I have filed patents so far for the ring solution and the solution for indexing the scope.

I cannot see any reason to use Picatinny on all rifles, it not various sigths should be used on the same gun
Rifles with an orignal own dovetail like Accuracy, SSG 3000 , SAKO TRG etc will have their own dovetails directly in the mount.
img4ab2a11925c73.jpg


Håkan Spuhr
 
#8
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

It looks like an extremely well thought out piece of equipment! Why such a hard alloy? If wanting extra strength, with the reduced weight why not stainless steel? I really like the over all ergonomics and fit and finish. The details are really cool, too. Hope you get the pat. and are to market it, looks good!
 
#10
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

If the mount was made in Stainless instead of 7075 the price would increase quite a lot.
And I dont think the weight would be affected in a positive way, so I will probably stick to 7075.
Everything I do, is normally in 7075 or stainless and I avoid mostly other alloys.

Have been planning to machine some parts where weight is a big concern in Magnesiumalloy thogh, but I have not really had time for it.

Håkan
 
#11
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

I like it.

It is nice to see someone thinking outside the box.

If these prove to be as good as they look, I think you can do well.

The built in cant would be a huge selling point to AR owners, and the 45 degree rings is genious.

On a side note, you have some damn sexy sticks.
 
#13
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

I have yet not planned any QR solution, as there is no space on the right side of the gun, becuase the spent case will hit that pieces and possible return back into the action.
I don't want any locking mechanism on the left side as it then will be less space for mounting assesories.

A main point about this solution is that the sniper and the spotter should be possible to have the same kind of scopemount, making it possible to move equipment from one gun to another if nedded.

Håkan
 
#16
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

Do you have recoil lugs on the underside of the mount?

Since you are looking to have separate versions for factory dovetails & heavy recoiling calibers, that might be worth considering. It will obviously up your costs to have to make so many different models.
 
#17
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

Way cool! What diameters are you planning? 1" 30mm 34mm 35mm? What heights will they come in?

Will you use strong quality screws to tighten it onto the picatinny rail? The screws on my Millet rings strip easily though my Badgers seem to use harder screws and my Burris XTRs something in between.

Will they come prelapped before anodizing or whatever surface treatment you use so we don't have to do it ourselves?

I have a Zeiss 72mm whose tube is rather short. I set my scope as far back as I can but still need to turkey neck a little when shooting at max power. So can the rear cross slots be placed a bit more forward so I can have a bit of it hang over the rear of my action to bring the eyepiece closer to my eye?
 
#18
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

I have always wondered why makers didnt put the level into the rear ring. I dont use them, but that seems like the best place to put one.

That looks like a well engineered piece of hardware. Nice work.
 
#21
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

Very nice!

That bubble may be obscured when you're looking through the scope. It would be on my setup. I like the way the US Optics bubble sticks out the side because I can see it by just opening my left eye while still observing the target with my right eye. Maybe have the ability to thread the level into a hole on the side of the base or ring.
 
#22
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

The screws are some special screws because they are not allowed to stick out to much on the right side.
They are stainless and high strength.

Kombayotch
The bubble are not obscured, at least not on those hights.
As you can see on mostly mounts the bubble is placed far over to the left, just to give you possibilitys to see it with your left eye.
My idea is to have everything as compact as possible.
The existing solutions with bubbles sticking out on the side, is things that easaly can get damaged.
But you might be right on the really lowest mounts and possible for target shooting.


All the different versions have recoil lugs, that is as I see it a must.

Can popper
On the DSR rifle above there is a 72mm mounted.


All the prototypes have been in 34mm.
But It will for sure also be made in 30mm.
1" I don't know.
The picatinny versions have been made in 1,5" and 1 7/8"
And that is probably good heights for AR and the DSR, but for conventional guns they have to be made lower.

TRG mount have been made 1 1/4" and 1,5"

Accuarcy and SIG have been made 1,5"

But heights are really not a problem, so if a customer just specifies that he want at least 5 of a certain heigh, he can get whatever height he likes.

Here is a picture on a Trijcon RMR mounted on a direct mount.
No picatinny parts as they in this case just build weight and bulk. But the Aimpoint H1 is mounted on picatinny as that was the most simple solution.

Regards Håkan
img4abd9ec1990a1.jpg
 
#23
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

It would not be conveniently visible on some boltguns with Picatinni rails... I can tell you that it wouldn't be on my M700 with SN3 3.2-17x.

You may also consider offering separate rings. I was thinking about going with 6 screw rings, but canned the idea because they ate up too much of my rail and didn't leave enough room for my level and cosine indicator to be mounted where I wanted them to be (same issue you solved). Having one of them mounted on the ring would solve that. Separate rings might be a better way to go for a lot of setups. I think a lot of people would find the modular mounting features alone to be very attractive.
 
#24
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopemount

Yes you are right for conventional boltguns separate rings are probably the way to go.
I will make some tests and put the bubble even further out to the left to see if that works.
If it doesent work it has to be a separate level like you said.
Here is one that is more left than the others.
img4abd0e7740cf8.jpg


I started the project beacuase there is a few armies around that has problems with their current mounts, such on TRG and AI.
On those guns, with the nontilted rail this solution is probably the best, but on conventional guns it's not cause it's going to be to high.

Håkan
 
#28
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

I got to shot the DSR .338 with a Hensoldt 6-24x72 with Spuhr's mount last week and it's one of the better mounting solutions I've seen so far.

One of the great advantages of this system is the square, low profile of the rings that let you read the turrets without moving your head too much out of position. The level is easily read with the non-sighting eye and works well even when shooting from your weak side.

Spurh has for years been a supplier of special solutions to both special operations communities and LE in Scandinavia and his products are well designed and of the highest quality and I'm really looking forward to see his products get available to shooters worldwide.

Remmene2-33.jpg
 
#29
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

Give it a year, the problem you are solving is about to disappear.

- Integral mounted "towers" will become a permanent feature of a new generation of scope "tubes"

- The base of these integrated mounts swap out for rail, clamp, QD, stud.

- Azi in the scope
- Eli in the scope
- cant in the scope
- turret read in the scope
- temp in the scope
- Pressure in the scope
- Range in the scope
- recommended drop in the scope

"Tubes" have been holding back scopes since 1918 and they are about to become history. The idea of using feeler gauges to level out is the last draw.

Hang on its coming. First gen Bors and Hens is just the start. You aren't going to believe what is about to happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGP85Z2mAJY

No more "puppet head bobbing," no more gizmo constructions, no more asking good men like yourself to dedicate endless time to correcting a 100 year old design flaw, rifles scope need to look like telescopes with clamps no longer. Some builders will deny the progress, tubes are cheap to make, but its coming and sooner rather than later. Those are the guys that will sit around and worry about ranging reticules while the rest of the world is selecting coefficients in their optics.
 
#30
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

Rolling Thunder

You might be rigth, but Hensoldt came with their SSG scope on the marked in the 1980th.
Not many have boght it, and it has not turned out to become a huge sucess.
The SSG has the built in mount and the settings visiable in the scope.
Now Hensoldt are offering SAM, with a price about 10000 Dollars for each scope.....

So you might be right, but I am really not that sure.......
The world of firearms are so slowly moving that John Browing would have been highly dissapointed at us if he lived today...

Håkan
 
#31
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

Agreed, but fear not.

Dedicated chip designs are the key, steam powered to pulsejet. Glass grinders and gear makers are about to be tapped on the shoulder and told to stand aside. Then watch what happens.

As to a $10k a scope, many here already know that the rifle is the cheapest part of the equation already. $10k, $20k optics to control 2,500 yards in all directions? Cheap.
 
#33
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

John Browning is alive, he is writing optical drive codes for multi spectrum swaps at our national observatories. He is on to new ventures, he is following the money, he is working on the Deep Ecliptic Survey. Compensating for wind, pressure, temp, gravity are all things that he solved when he was in graduate school thirty years ago. His lasers aim at distant planets through our whole atmosphere.

2,500 yards for him is a rounding error to the umpteen place.

John Browning wouldn't spend a coffee break trying to convince Leopold that they are now the laggards.

John Brown would look at this "solution set" as an epiphany and then, in a quiet voice ask the room to be cleared.

Then he would get to work as, clearly, this must truly be the trough.

ss.jpg
 
#34
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

Actually, the future lies in autonomous particle-beam weapons. It just depends on how far out you want to look. "Shooter? We don need no stinkin <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">shooter</span></span>...
laugh.gif
 
#35
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

The only other thing I can think of is to offer multiple MOA cants.

All of our 338s TRGs & AWSM are running 30+ MOA (42-45MOA) so we can get a 100m zero and still have maximum travel.

Look forward to your product!
 
#37
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

Will there be a lefty version ? Now all the gadgets would be in the way of a LH bolt.

The LH version could manufactured so that the base is otherwise milled ready then turned 180 degrees lengthwise and only then the 30-40 MOA slope would be milled to the base. This way the ring screws would be on the other side of the rifle. Also the scope level would be milled at this stage to get it on the right end of the base. The basic ideas would still work. With small batches this would be easy to do. Or would it ?

I would need a 30-40 MOA slope and the system made for Picatinny in 34mm. My rifle does have a Tikka 17mm rail under the Picatinny but it does not have the TRG-42 recoil stop cut-outs. Tt least not yet :)

The Hensoldt SSGs, SSG-Ps, milspec Zeisses that I have seen broken down on top of 338LM:s would have broken down no matter what rings have been used. Usually the lenses shatter. The only exception might be the 5-25 version that is so long that it might benefit from a ral rigid platform. I have not seen or hear any of those break down due to recoil yet. It is possible they break down too when used enough.

Interesting side note: Now also the small dot sights will get their doses of fast recoiling 338LM:s. Interesting to see how they hold on to dear life on top of a TRG-42.
 
#39
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

Hi

The mounts will be made in any MOA cant whatever, if more than 10 mounts is ordered at the same time. So 40 or 45 MOA is not any problem at all. Same thing with Lefty mounts, that will be made.

The separate rings that is planned will be possible to mount in either way, both for lefties and righties.

The Danish army have 5-25 S&B in Sako Mounts on their TRG42.
100% of the scopes are breaking down after 1100-1600 rounds.
I do heavaly suspekt the mounts as a reason and the fact that they have loosely fitted picatinny rails on the guns.


TA what gun do you have?
The current protptypes of TRG monunts does not work on Tikka as they are covering up the ejection port. But I am looking into that problem as well.
Personally I think that a T3 in 6,5x55 with a better stock is one of the better long range guns for the money.

Håkan
 
#40
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

I wonder for myself that the scopes last that long, because I have very poor experience with that scope mount on a .308.
I know that I will be harassed for that post.
What I would like to see is a possibility to mount the EOtech(the short one with the one lithium battery) in front of the elevation turrent, that hight that you just can see through the window, but the turrent blocks seeing the operation buttons. I would like to have my back up sight vertically atop of the scope not somehow sideways.
 
#42
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

Spuhr, can you make mounts for a Sako 75 short(308) action?

Scandinavia is flooded with old Sako actions. I think a rail with fixed rear (recoil lug) and length adjustable front would sell a lot.
 
#43
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

Whatever the future of the scope may be, this is an awesome solution to current issues, and there are many many scopes in the field that won't just go away when newer optics become the norm. Great work Spuhr!!

Maybe we will see a 'cash for glass' program LOL
 
#44
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

What I forgot to say: I would consider to to turn in the inner diameter of the ring tow to three grooves , so if someone wants to glue his scope into the rings he had that ability.
If you already had that idea I could not see it on the 3D image.
Oh and if these mounts ever become available in Germany I´m in for at least two units, so please remember me.

Thanks
 
#46
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dan17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I forgot to say: I would consider to to turn in the inner diameter of the ring tow to three grooves , so if someone wants to glue his scope into the rings he had that ability.
If you already had that idea I could not see it on the 3D image.
Oh and if these mounts ever become available in Germany I´m in for at least two units, so please remember me.

Thanks </div></div>

Great idea.
Have tought about it before, but of course the groves should be there.

Håkan
 
#47
Ideal sniper/markmans mount/update

A number of great features have been recomended.
Thanks a lot everybody that have taken time to give ideas and advices.
I have decided to go for the following so far.

1. groves in the rings for possible gluing of scope.
2. hook at the front for mirage band( it will be a thread, where a hook can be installed)
3. Levels that are interchangable, that way the user can chose betwen clear and green liquid and possible also a tritium level with turn off mechanism.

Regards Håkan Spuhr
 
#49
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

Very nice design Spuhr. As long as it holds up I think you have a winner.
From what I can see on these posts and web site alone, you could probably sell 100 to 300 units. Why bother with a distributor at this point. Why not go into small scale production and take orders directly for now?

Gary
 
#50
Re: More ideas for an Ideal sniper/markmans scopem

These are very nice I particularly like two things the level being built in where it cant be damaged easily and the aimpoint being able to mount 45 degrees to the right.
 
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