Look into the neurobiology of drug addiction, read it, study it and then you'll understand. Also, look up the actual definition for disease. We really need to be careful to separate the initial decision and the disease. They are two very different events.
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Narcan doesn’t save lives
- Thread starter sirhrmechanic
- Start date
Look into the neurobiology of drug addiction, read it, study it and then you'll understand. Also, look up the actual definition for disease. We really need to be careful to separate the initial decision and the disease. They are two very different events.
Definition of DISEASE
a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms : sickness, malady; a harmful development (as in a social institution); trouble… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
According to this definition, fatigue could be considered a disease. A disease that, for most, could be resolved by making the choice to take a nap. Trust me, I know there is WAY more to it than simply saying, Yeah I don't think I'll do that smy more. I acknowledge that the physiology inside the body and brain change (hence the label "disease) after an addiction has begun. From my Neanderthal-esque brain it's also a condition which originated and can be cured primarily by making the decision to stop. (Like my over-eating) There may need to be counseling and support along the way. I'm simply dumbing it down too much I guess. Addicted to meth? Stop doing meth. Addicted to neuroblastoma? Stop doing... Oh wait.
Definition of DISEASE
a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms : sickness, malady; a harmful development (as in a social institution); trouble… See the full definition
According to this definition, fatigue could be considered a disease. A disease that, for most, could be resolved by making the choice to take a nap. Trust me, I know there is WAY more to it than simply saying, Yeah I don't think I'll do that smy more. I acknowledge that the physiology inside the body and brain change (hence the label "disease) after an addiction has begun. From my Neanderthal-esque brain it's also a condition which originated and can be cured primarily by making the decision to stop. (Like my over-eating) There may need to be counseling and support along the way. I'm simply dumbing it down too much I guess. Addicted to meth? Stop doing meth. Addicted to neuroblastoma? Stop doing... Oh wait.
Correct, again that doesn't change the fact it is still by definition a disease.
You're not alone
Ohio sheriff says his officers won't carry Narcan
An Ohio sheriff says administering Narcan to people who repeatedly overdose is 'sucking the taxpayers dry.'
www.nbcnews.com
Not saying it should. Just expressing my feelings that some patients deserve empathy without any sympathy. Some deserve both. I can appreciate that addicts are in shitty situations. There's my empathy. I will not, however, feel the least bit sorry for you because of piss poor choices. That's all I'm saying. Things can be the "same" but completely different.
As long as you have the same stance on individuals who smoke, drink, over-eat and the subsequent diseases caused from those choices then that's fine by me. I have some empathy because I understand the why but at the same time...it is a consequence of their initial choice and they need to own up to it.
I hesitate to wade into this but I want to add some information
I own and run a Methadone clinic
I am a physician
Narcan is a tool to be used like any tool; properly
It is to reverse opiate overdose whether inadvertent or otherwise
That's its role
Just because some one decides to drive drunk and has an injury; do we make a moral decision to not render aid?
No we do the right thing and take care of them
Its tough to get a dead addict into treatment
The question is what tx
studies show substitution therapy works to get them off an illicit opiate
we then turn some one with addiction into some one who is opiate dependent
Why
so we can work on why they became addicted in the first place
the root cause is being missed in this discussion
Does anyone on here truly believe anyone says "god I want to grow up to be a heroin addict" or any type of addict
No there is something that drives them to continue down that path
It is our role thru meds and counseling to get them to see that and try to move on with their life
Its not easy and the success rate is not great
I do get people off illicit opiates but to move them off methadone is a lot of work on the patients part
we look at addiction as a chronic relapsing disease
We do not cure addiction we help the patient manage it
Just as I would for a diabetic or someone with hypertension
rant over flame suit on
dutch
I own and run a Methadone clinic
I am a physician
Narcan is a tool to be used like any tool; properly
It is to reverse opiate overdose whether inadvertent or otherwise
That's its role
Just because some one decides to drive drunk and has an injury; do we make a moral decision to not render aid?
No we do the right thing and take care of them
Its tough to get a dead addict into treatment
The question is what tx
studies show substitution therapy works to get them off an illicit opiate
we then turn some one with addiction into some one who is opiate dependent
Why
so we can work on why they became addicted in the first place
the root cause is being missed in this discussion
Does anyone on here truly believe anyone says "god I want to grow up to be a heroin addict" or any type of addict
No there is something that drives them to continue down that path
It is our role thru meds and counseling to get them to see that and try to move on with their life
Its not easy and the success rate is not great
I do get people off illicit opiates but to move them off methadone is a lot of work on the patients part
we look at addiction as a chronic relapsing disease
We do not cure addiction we help the patient manage it
Just as I would for a diabetic or someone with hypertension
rant over flame suit on
dutch
They're lacing/mixing/cutting the drugs with everything else under the sun (and kitchen cupboard) so let them add-in the Narcan at the same time, so it is a 'self-caring' problem. Actually, that 'problem' turns itself into a solution.
Only way to make this situation better/exciting'er is to add 'binary' ingredients so that when a useless junkie gets a second dose that contains 'the other stuff' their head explodes.
It's for the children....
Only way to make this situation better/exciting'er is to add 'binary' ingredients so that when a useless junkie gets a second dose that contains 'the other stuff' their head explodes.
It's for the children....
It's the only way they are guaranteed to never be a burden and danger to society
Nuke chi-na. Solves this problem and quite a few others. I don’t give a shit if that means Wally World goes belly up and the poors need to pay a couple bucks more for their junk.
Probably easier than getting most live ones into treatment. You can drag them both but only one will be kicking and screaming.
Does this include babies addicted to heroin? We could just abort them and take burden off society.
The issues is using tax dollars. Legalize everything and let Darwin sort it out, but to think society is somehow obligated to provide methadone, clean needles or a place for junkies to shoot up fuck off.
What happened to communities looking after their own. It’s not a job for government.
What happened to communities looking after their own. It’s not a job for government.
You're some special kind of asshole to use innocent children who did not choose to become drug addicts as a fucking strawman argument.
No, it doesn't include them you piece of shit.
Their junky mothers, on the other hand, I'd shoot in the back of the head without losing one second of sleep
Fuck you
They are addicts though, you stated addicts are a burden on society. Just using your words.
Whenever someone is locked up for 6 months to a year, comes out and goes right back to doing meth or heroin, it is by CHOICE.
This is likely due to the withdrawal of people from physical interaction. The interwebz, loss of jobs in early 2000s, and recently Covid have all helped to keep folks from getting together face to face. It's hard to have an emotional attachment or view someone as human looking at their typed words on a screen.
Dispatchers are like Taco Bell. Both can be pretty spicy and they always seem to give you the worst runs.We didn't know that it was CBD till we arrived, dispatch said possible OD on a pain killer. Dispatch always gets the best information
The politics behind the blame for the opioid epidemic are telling. The Sackler Family were Republicans and donated heavily to the Republicans. The Democrats blame them for the opioid epidemic and are out to break them in court. Not once has the party of irresponsibility blamed the dealer or the junkie for illegal drugs, there has been enough Chinese fentanyl to overdose the country, but the DNC has been happy to "fine" Purdue and the Sackler family.
Before someone takes this the wrong way, my father delt drugs in the 70's. He had a lot of cool stuff that junkies would steal just to get their next high. All incarceration was for him was free room and board while he waited to go back to dealing.
Before someone takes this the wrong way, my father delt drugs in the 70's. He had a lot of cool stuff that junkies would steal just to get their next high. All incarceration was for him was free room and board while he waited to go back to dealing.
It saved the 1 year old girl my buddy responded to a week ago that found moms boyfriend's fentanyl.... Took 3 doses of narcan, but brought that little girl back to life...
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For a guy that wants addicted babies to die I guess that's fine. I would rather be the "apologist".
Well said. There is more, much more, to teaching than just rattling out information.
“The teacher who is indeed wise does not bid you to enter the house of his wisdom but rather leads you to the threshold of your mind.”
-Khalil Gibran
This argument is no different than why cirrhosis patients are denied a liver transplant because of their continued alcoholism.
They are your words sunshine.
You quoted an individual that stated its hard to get a dead addict into treatment. Then stated "It's the only way they are guaranteed to never be a burden and danger to society"
I guess the real question is: why do you hate addicted babies so much that you want them dead?
Pretty disturbing.
Anyone here implicitly understands that unborn children are not what is being discussed here as addicts. Your attempt at misdirection with a pathetic strawman argument keeps failing.
Why do you love drug addicts so much? Are you a user of illegal drugs? Are you a manufacturer of illegal drugs?
You owe my department a keyboard. I just told my dispatcher and she spewed her coffee.
Still, you make a good point!
These would be born children, they are born as addicts. It has nothing to do with misdirection, you can always amend your original statement or you want babies to die. Up to you, but as it stands right now...you want to see addicted babies die.
Your words, not mine.
I have a question
would people feel the same if the discussion was about alcohol
because in my world an addiction is an addiction whether it be to drugs or alcohol or porn or gambling
to be clear an addiction in my world is when you continue a behavior
even though it causes harm to you and/or your loved ones
would people feel the same if the discussion was about alcohol
because in my world an addiction is an addiction whether it be to drugs or alcohol or porn or gambling
to be clear an addiction in my world is when you continue a behavior
even though it causes harm to you and/or your loved ones
I honestly believe that In current times, people who choose to use an opioid should fully know the possible consequences. I have seen what used to be a close friend “try” heroin. Become a full on addict. Get locked up, go to treatment and get clean. Then two weeks later OD and start the process over. And drag others down the hole with him.
Should Narcan be a tool for a possible accidental encounter? Yes. Should it be handed out along with new needles and Syringes, to save a junkie? absolutely not. Should a repeat offender be given it more than once? Fuck No.
Should Narcan be a tool for a possible accidental encounter? Yes. Should it be handed out along with new needles and Syringes, to save a junkie? absolutely not. Should a repeat offender be given it more than once? Fuck No.
You do realize crack, meth, & heroin perps are given daily doses of Methadon or Soboxone while incarcerated. It’s now std practice in detention facility’s at least in my locale. Assuming your LE, don’t take my word for it, ask detention facilities in your area. Crack and Meth heads doing a 6 month bit come out with an Opiate addition.
It’s abject stupidity brought to us by big Pharma & elected idiots.
If I were LE, I’d be pissed. Lick up a Crack head & the fucker is back on the street in 3-6 months & now has a physical opiate addiction. They should be cold turkey while incarcerated.
I don’t disagree that it’s a choice, it is & most will go right back to the BS, but the “system” is making a bad problem worse.
There is no medical treatment for crack or meth addiction
you only get suboxone for opiate addiction
that doesn't mean someone doesn't have both a crack or meth and opiate addiction
and that's how they get suboxone while incarcerated
I disagree its not a choice its an addiction
That's the same as saying an alcoholic chooses to drink
Watch an alcoholic in withdrawal and see what the consequences of an addiction are
you only get suboxone for opiate addiction
that doesn't mean someone doesn't have both a crack or meth and opiate addiction
and that's how they get suboxone while incarcerated
I disagree its not a choice its an addiction
That's the same as saying an alcoholic chooses to drink
Watch an alcoholic in withdrawal and see what the consequences of an addiction are
Not true because it's case by case.
You do know that people can develop cirrhosis of the liver and never take a drink?
Why do you love drug addicts so much? Are you a user of illegal drugs? Are you a manufacturer of illegal drugs?
I’m well aware there is no medical treatment for crack or meth.
That’s exactly why I’m calling out this insanity. Despite your logical response, this is happening in the 2 detention centers near me.
It’s not much of a stretch when you consider current treatment options for crack or meth addicted addicts.
Give me One example from anywhere in the country of a treatment center/rehab, that accepts insurance, and is subsidized in anyway, that does not diagnose & subscribe medication (psychotropics ) to crack/meth addicts as a first order of business. As you said there is no medical treatment so why is this now std practice. Follow the money.
If an addict is actually abstinent while incarcerated as they should be, & medically detoxed if necessary (Alcohol Opiates). When they get out physical withdrawal is in the rear view mirror & serves as a motivator to make a different choice. In this scenario, damn straight it’s a choice when they get out. The whole damn point of consequences.
I agree there are some providers that do stupid things
I only do outpatient treatment of opiate addiction
alot of my patients have co occurring psych issue and/or other addictions crack or meth
it is a bitch to deal with a psychotic opiate/meth addict
but to your last point, about after detox
people tend to forget there was a driver of their addiction in the first place
unless you deal with the root cause
when they get stressed they will go back and self medicate because its the only behavior they know
wash rinse repeat
unless you do counseling along with tx
saw a movie about drug rehab mills...the liberals can exploit anything to get rich, even addicts.
I agree 100% on your last point. That’s where the 12 step programs come into play & they are the most effective hands down, long term. For context I mean only as applied to the addiction piece.
As for the co occurring issues and root cause we’re back to the argument of which came first, chicken or the egg. Chemical imbalance Is present unquestionably, but the cause is up for debate? Prevailing treatment method currently is to chemically treat the chemical imbalance. IMO this is parallel to what the addict was doing on their own, albeit with legal drugs & I do not agree with that approach.
The point I was making about the treatment facilities is that any addict that has been to non private treatment within the last 10 years will in-fact have co occurring issues. It is now the std modus operandi of treatment to diagnose, prescribe, treat. Without the first 2, no treatment.
This is where we may not have common ground. Medically supervised detox aside. Vivatrol & anti psychotics are the only medications I agree with.
They are people and I like to help people, no and no.
So why do you want to kill addicted babies?
Is it gay if you smile?
Narcan can certainly save lives. Its a rapid acting opioid receptor blocker. The intention of using it is to buy someone time to get to an ER not as a crutch to keep using drugs..... Fentanyl and carfentanyl dont have to be orally ingested to be toxic. you can literally touch a few grains of powder and be in a life threatening situation. Imagine a policer office that comes into contact with the dust making an arrest or making a search and some powder touches his arm and he suddenly has labored breathing... what do you suggest he does? he better damn sure use his narcan inhaler and get immediate back up coming. The issue is narcan is not long acting and wears off before the narcotic is out of the system so once it wears off you can still be overdosed all over again.
... I can hear it now.... Big pharma lover... BS
Its not there to cure addiction...
... I can hear it now.... Big pharma lover... BS
Its not there to cure addiction...
We can agree to disagree.
In my setting I use a legal drug to stop the illicit use. Only than can counseling get to the person trapped by addiction. I wholeheartedly support 12 step programs. Unfortunately there is a stigma around the use of medication in the 12 step community.
I know what my success rate of getting people off illicit substances and it blows abstinence treatment out of the water. Even Hazelden has begun using suboxone for the treatment of opioid addiction
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