Ah, where to start, at the beginning I guess
. I appreciate the feedback and no offense taken (and I hope the same from me).
First, your problem is not killing power, 350 has plenty. Even 5.56 is perfectly fine. A kill was made in Afghanistan with a MK18 10.5 barrel and MK262 at 500m.
Shoot better. Holes in things that aren't supposed to have holes is what kills stuff. Not energy…
I’m not concerned about killing power, I’m afraid I’ve killed more deer than I’ve found and the round / rifle are plenty accurate (~MOA) for what I need. I also shoot it plenty well but even a perfect shot yields no blood for at least 20 yds which is a huge problem for shots at dusk or shots on a deer drive where I’m shooting multiples and have to shoot according to what I’m seeing for what I believe to be good hits (my personal favorite is a double shoulder / double lung that turns the deer into a snowplow for about 30 yds before they die). Also good to note deer here in IA and surrounding states are noticeably larger than other parts of the country. When I was in VA, a mature deer was hardly as big as a 2 yo immature deer here so you can imagine what a 3-5 yo deer is like (much heavier than a 140 lb Afghani).
As for documented, accurate shots I’ve got a couple scenarios that stick out to me.
- My grandpa (85 yo true legend haha) shot a yearling in the top of the heart at 70 yds in the middle of a field and it still ran 80 yds before it tipped over. I wasn’t there to see blood but didn’t sound like it bled much at all.
- My nephew spined a 2 yo at 75 yds (new hunter) and dropped it right there. We go up and he shoots it literally point blank in a perfect spot and the bullet still didn’t expand beyond .357 (or whatever weird diameter they use in the 350). This leads me to believe shot distance and placement can be perfect and blood still isn’t spilled (deer still die though)
- I shot a 3 yo doe slightly quartering to at 80 yds and got lungs. I was 99% sure I made a great shot but it still took me 5 minutes to find blood and I knew exactly where the deer stood. I followed blood and hoofs over the hill (lost blood twice in the snow) before I found her dead over the hill a couple hundred yards from the shot. It was -20F with wind chill that day so the deer were plenty fat and that fat seems to seal up the blood really well if a bullet doesn't expand. If I was on a deer drive and had to make a quick assessment, I would have wasted that deer unintentionally.
Not to brag, but in the groups I hunt with I’m jokingly called “Indian tracker” because I’m able to follow some very light blood trails so losing the same blood trail twice in the snow is concerning to me. I’m always able to learn more though.
If you are losing deer like that it isn't because of the cartridge. It is the shots you are making. Not trying to be a dick, but if you can't drop a deer at 100m reliably or can't find one that runs 80 yards after being shot, you dont have enough experience.
Once again, not trying to offend. If I lived nearby I would tell you to come hunt with me. Find someone who is experienced and hunt with them a bit.
Your rifle is perfectly capable. It is basically a 357 max on steroids. You can literally kill anything on the planet with that if you make good shots except maybe elephant.
What bullets were you shooting? There is a good chance your bullet choice might need to be refined.
Where were you shooting the animals anatomically?
How are you shooting deer where you are reliably dropping them? In all my time shooting deer (we shot 9 in a morning once) I have not had any drop with a 45/70, muzzle loader, or 350L unless they were shot in the spine. I'd say the minority of deer drop with a 12 ga slug which is about as ruthless as it gets (plenty of snow plows though with double shoulder / lungs). Of course you have the facing you shots that are always fun. I did once shoot a doe right up main street as she jumped a fence. I was lucky enough to tuck the slug between both hind quarters and the slug exited the front chest (she was dead before she hit the ground).
I am confident the cartridge kills, but I think my intended use is just outside it's wheelhouse for the results I want which is why I'm after something more. Heck, I've been poking deer with arrows for over a decade and love that (first deer was with a 35lb bow at 25 yds). I believe the 350L in a shorter barrel has lower speed and bullets that have low BC so they don't perform as well at distance (and expansion at any distance from a shorter barrel is not ideal). I would honestly feel confident with a 556 on deer because I know I could get that little bullet to expand and I would be realistic about the distances I can work with. I'm sure more deer are poached with a 22lr than almost any other round.
As for experience, I appreciate the comment but I've been hunting anything that lives here since I was 2 (from my dad's backpack!) What is new to all of us is the cartridge selection we have. I have shot so many deer with 12 ga slugs I quit counting when I was 14. I know the 30-30 has killed a ton of animals larger than deer so it's certainly a capable round, I'm just trying to figure out what to expect and if it's weak blood trails and no expansion then I want something else.
As for the bullet, I'm shooting factory
Winchester 180 gr PowerPoints and they are stated 2100 fps from the muzzle (I believe a 20" barrel) so I'm probably in the 1900 to 2000 fps range if I'm fortunate (from a 16" barrel). I chose this bullet because guys locally have had the best time feeding them in an AR. I would love something that expands better but they don't seem to run in an AR as well for whatever reason. I'm open to loading other bullets but I don't want to invest in that before I know I'll stick with it. I really do believe part of the issue is the bullet since I'm running at velocities / distances that are a little outside the intended envelope (hence my preference to go to an AR10 based cartridge).
Anatomically I'm plugging them right where I shoot them with a bow, 1/3 to 1/2 way up the chest and tucked behind the shoulder. I've not tried to break a shoulder yet. I am very interested in how different shots have different effects so when I'm gutting deer I am usually curious as to where the bullet went and can confirm good shots on deer recovered (so I believe my holds are good).
Omitted AFT commentary as we are on the same page...
Factory Hornady 165 FTX gives me 2140fps from the 11" barrel.
Actually just loaded some ladders of 165 FTX & 170 Barnes TSX to shoot tomorrow.
Giving SBR-SOCOM powder a try.
I'm expecting the Barnes to expand pretty well. Might shoot an old MSC catalog to see how it does.
Also FYI you can buy the Barnes 170TSX as factory loaded ammo now I believe.
Win brass weighs 101gr. Top load is 28.9gr compressed with the Barnes @2.265
Hornady brass weighs 95gr. Top load is 29.2 compressed with barnes @2.265
That is fantastic velocity from an 11" barrel. How have you gotten the FTX to feed reliably? What barrel are you running?
I believe part of the loading for the 350 is that it headspaces off the brass so OAL is critical (I haven't reloaded pistols at all so this is new to me). Would love to hear how the FTX and TSX loads do for you with that powder.
I am suppressed so the fireball isn't as much of a concern. That 16" I have now is so quiet I've been able to shoot a couple deer off a fence post from 80 to 110 yds and the herd just stayed in the field (unless they got shot haha). I love the way this gun suppresses.
No it isn't. If it has a forward grip, then yes.
The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with...
www.atf.gov
I believe you are correct but there's so much ambiguity around it I just have been sticking under 16" to make sure it's a pistol. If I'm wrong, a 18" 358 Win out of an AR10 should solve a lot of my problems (let me get good velocity for the cartridge and suppress well). It also doesn't hurt it would be the same length as my 6.5 CM gasser so I would get good field experience on a similar platform on live targets.
Why limit to an AR platform? Look into a TC or other similar style pistol. 35 whelen might be ok from a 15 inch barrel?
I've got other calibers for the shotgun season where we can use any rifle over 35 cal which is exciting. I really like autos so a TC just doesn't do it for me. If I'm going to do that, I might as well just grab the muzzle loader I already have.
Good luck with that and the Elmer Fudds thar carry a badge
I had one try to seize my rifle when ghog hunting “cause that’s a silencer and that’s illegal “
Those guys are disheartening. I do have a cousin with a written response from DNR hq here that essentially says their job is not to define a pistol so as long as the ATF is good with it, they are good with it. I'm less concerned about them and more attentive to the AFT changing things.
Maybe, but I've seen a deer run off without a jaw and I'd really rather not do that again. I've accidentely done a headshot at 15 yds but that deer was on a dead run and I lead more than I needed to haha. I followed bone fragments instead of blood for about 15 feet haha.
Iowa deer hunter here as well.
I tend to agree with the OP on the 350. I understand all these arguments about shot placement but I have experience with ~10 kills on deer with the 350. Some from kids and some from myself. I have observed, even with a double lung shot, that deer still run up to 100y. I don't know how to explain it because the bullets expand well but I just don't have faith in the catridge outside of being for a youth hunter and certainly inside 150y. These were handloads of 165gn FTX pushing 2300fps.
OP - I assume you're after a pistol so you can hunt late muzzleloader season. Otherwise you'd be building a 35whelen or 375ruger. I built a 375 Ruger for the gun seasons, works great on bobcat, only thing I've killed with it so far.
What you really need is a smokeless muzzleloader shooting 45cal full bore bullets. Cost of admission is high. Learning curve seems to be a little daunting but with Arrowhead's NSR bullets it's a lot easier than you might think. Between me and my family we've had around 12 kills with them, deer don't take a step. Roughly 300gn bullet pushing 3100fps. You can get a full gun from Arrowhead or Hankins. Hankins will do barreled action. I've worked with and shot both, they are both fantastic, under 1" groups at 100. I grew up on the Savage MLII, and these guns blow the socks off those.
I agree, it is a fantastic cartridge for youth and older hunters. I mean it let my grandpa shoot a deer this year when he sure couldn't have handled a 45/70 or muzzle loader. I may keep it purely out of hopes I get to see him shoot deer the next 5 years. It just isn't a performer at range.
You're correct on the muzzy season. I'm getting a 375 lapua or 37 XC barrel spun up sometime this year for next shotgun season. I shot a deer with a BMG this year at 500 yds which was fun to do once but didn't feel like hunting.
Those 45 cal muzzleloaders sound very interesting and I have a buddy in Kalona that has used them I think. Hankins seems like a good alternative if I can send him a 45 cal CVA. Boy those customs look and shoot sweet though! Velocity and bullet choice is the main reason I think muzzle loaders have sucked too so running a slug 2800+ fps would be awesome.
Reminds me of the first deer I shot. 50yds with a 7.5x55, pretty much ballistically equivalent to a 308. Took the first shot, the deer jumped, ran 30 yards and stood still. I couldn't believe I missed, but animals aren't supposed to trot around with holes in them, so I must've. Second shot right in the brain dropped the deer where it stood.
Turns out the first shot was perfect, hit heart and one lung, found the nicely expanded bullet under the far side hide. The deer just didn't feel like flopping over dead I guess. Not sure how more ballistic horsepower would've helped.
Deer are strange sometimes! And tougher than most give them credit for.
At the end of the day, I have already learned a lot as this 16" 350L is roughly the same size as my 14.5" 556 that I shoot with a lot. I've learned 16" is about as long as I'd want to go and I don't love LPVOs as much as I thought. I found myself walking with my scope on 2x more than 1x for accurate shot placement which has me thinking a little differently with the 1-8 on my 556. I hope we see a good 2-12 or 2.5-15 MPVO this year. Heck, even a light and compact 2.5-10 would get me excited
