Negative. More often than not, the better shooter takes the match. The fact that you’ve apparently “had your ass handed to you many a match by the local with Grampys rifle” disproves your argument.
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PRS Talk New Classification for the Series
- Thread starter JM4590
- Start date
Negative. More often than not, the better shooter takes the match. The fact that you’ve apparently “had your ass handed to you many a match by the local with Grampys rifle” disproves your argument.
Absolutely. If 95% of this is practice/wind reading/dedication/skill/practice, and 5% is gear, and your RPR/PST has only 80% of the potential of the full custom, then clearly that shooter will be limited to 99% awesomeness.
So its negligible.
Ahhhhhhh....no, apparently you missed the part about ....more often than not....high end gear......
Oh.....and by the by bro.....the scores we were talkin about.....
Lol, go measure dicks with someone else dude. I give a shit less about your scores, annual income, or what you bench press. I know what I’ve done...
Fuck! You gots me all confused with that % shit yo!
Who da fuck is budly yo? I’m 140 soakin wet. I couldn’t push the weight of a quarter pounder off my chest
So lets just say a top shooter decides to figure his time invested into financial terms.
He puts in 12 hrs per week between dry and live fire, 5 hrs a week loading ammo, 20 hrs a month in matches for the last 4 years to get where he is. Decides his time is worth... I don't know, $25 an hour.
Has $10k in gear.
Casual shooter does 4 hours a month in dry/live fire, 6 hrs in a local match, buys factory ammo, does this for a year then decides to whine about people spending more money. Has $2.5k in gear.
Top shooter has $112400 in time in 4 years. His $10k in gear is almost insignificant in his total investment.
Guy 2 has $3k in time invested. Guess why he's getting smoked. I promise its not the $7.5k difference in gear cost.
He puts in 12 hrs per week between dry and live fire, 5 hrs a week loading ammo, 20 hrs a month in matches for the last 4 years to get where he is. Decides his time is worth... I don't know, $25 an hour.
Has $10k in gear.
Casual shooter does 4 hours a month in dry/live fire, 6 hrs in a local match, buys factory ammo, does this for a year then decides to whine about people spending more money. Has $2.5k in gear.
Top shooter has $112400 in time in 4 years. His $10k in gear is almost insignificant in his total investment.
Guy 2 has $3k in time invested. Guess why he's getting smoked. I promise its not the $7.5k difference in gear cost.
Please articulate this:
Ruger rpr 6creed shooting .5moa
Vortex viper pst gen 2
Vs
Impact 6creed in mpa chassis w/bartlein that shoots .5moa
Tangent theta 5-25
Articulate, point for point why one of those set ups should inherently give a shooter an advantage.
Not talking malfunctions or acts of god.
Those two setups. Say......David Preston vs Jake Vibbert.
Give me a point for point analysis on why one shooter has a distinct advantage over the other.
Ruger rpr 6creed shooting .5moa
Vortex viper pst gen 2
Vs
Impact 6creed in mpa chassis w/bartlein that shoots .5moa
Tangent theta 5-25
Articulate, point for point why one of those set ups should inherently give a shooter an advantage.
Not talking malfunctions or acts of god.
Those two setups. Say......David Preston vs Jake Vibbert.
Give me a point for point analysis on why one shooter has a distinct advantage over the other.
Lower than I would have been before reading this thread
Okay, RPR with Ruger barrel? RPR with no mods? No after market trigger? No aftermarket barrel....only reason I ask is any alteration is $$$..:
Second setup is purely custom...more forgiving,...no mention of trigger on either...scopes not even close in glass.....
Bottom line...if what you posted is all equall....why so many dudes shooting custom. Hmmmmm .5 MOA is .5 MOA ....why we spending 1000’s for custom?
Why do you fuckrs continue to attack me? The thread was for fun. It was for thought. I didn’t call out one single person or group. If you got money and can buy a $5000 rifle....bully bully for you....if you gots no money, 10 kids, 6 college loans, a mortgage, and a pregnant cat....sorry....hit me up.....I’ll help a brother out with match fees , reloads, travel, etc. I don’t give two shits who you are....you can’t tell me that $$$$4 doesn’t = success. If that were the case .....then we would all be shooting Barska atop “ lookie here” rifles.....buy what you can....practice with what you got.....enjoy the game yo!
I’ve probably done more for new shooters than you could imagine, I don’t feel I need to talk about it because that’s not what it’s all about.
Yes, you could compete with me as a new shooter, gear does not matter. Like I said, I won the last match I shot with a rifle that was shooting one inch groups, how many rifles do you know that can shoot one inch or better? All of them, with factory ammo too.
If my rifle went down and I was handed an RPR, HMR, Howa bravo. I would not be worried about how I was going to do, because gear is nothing more than preference. I have a lot of friends who are great shooters and regularly place in the top 10 and even win regularly shooting savage actions in stocks they carved out of hunks of wood in their garage.
There is a classification that limits $$$$ it’s called production. Open division is just that, if you want to shoot against other factory rifles, shoot production.
If we take the time to read all the information and thoughts within this thread, leaving out the personal attacks, there are some good questions here. IMO the biggest one being:
If a more budget minded rig like the RPR shooting .5 MOA is just as good as a custom Impact shooting .5 MOA why are so many shooting the custom rig?
Please don't use the "It's America and I can buy what I want". I truly understand that and believe that.
My point is, as shooters we are doing a lot of do as I say not as I do. New shooters are looking to see what they need to be competitive in this sport and they see the top shooter (for the most part) running mostly the top of the line stuff. Then they are told it's the shooter not the equipment.
Does this get this thread back to a civil discussion?
If a more budget minded rig like the RPR shooting .5 MOA is just as good as a custom Impact shooting .5 MOA why are so many shooting the custom rig?
Please don't use the "It's America and I can buy what I want". I truly understand that and believe that.
My point is, as shooters we are doing a lot of do as I say not as I do. New shooters are looking to see what they need to be competitive in this sport and they see the top shooter (for the most part) running mostly the top of the line stuff. Then they are told it's the shooter not the equipment.
Does this get this thread back to a civil discussion?
So here’s the first reason why I buy custom products..
Quality control.
The high probability that I will have a rifle that shoots .5 or better with a custom rifle is worth the extra money to me.
When you buy a factory rifle, the likelihood of receiving a lemon is much higher, I’ve seen many an RPR etc that don’t shoot, forcing the user to either deal with warranty issues or buying a barrel to put on it. Making that budget venture much more time and money consuming.
The second reason is reliability, if your gun goes down during a match, that sucks, and then you’ve wasted your time and money going to the match. This is much more frequent with factory rifles.
The third reason is caliber offerings, I shoot BR variants because they are easy to hand load for, and I hate to spend time reloading, any time I can save from having to hammer rounds through a barrel trying to find a load that shoots, is again, time and money that I’ve saved.
The fourth reason is preference, I like how an impact feels when you cycle the bolt, it’s smooth, and I like nice things and can afford to.
None of these things have to do with accuracy or rounds on target, I’ve had factory rifles that were just as accurate as my custom one. When I miss, I am sure it’s me because my confidence in my rifle is high. This allows me to focus on my ability, rather than my gear.
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It has to do with options, adjustability, convenience, repeatability and consistence. And yes, people like to have nice stuff too. Does the top end stuff make life easier? Yes, I believe it does, but make no mistake, take away all the high end gear, across the board, give every shooter in PRS / NRL a Remington 700 PSS their their preferred caliber of choice with a Vortex PST, and they would still be where they are now in the rankings. Scores would go up across the board a small amount due to potential slower times, yes, but if all is equal, the Top 10 shooters will still be the Top 10 Shooters.
In the end, it’s not the gear that’s putting these shooters where they are. It’s their dedication, practice and experience that got them there...
EDIT: The Top of the Pack shooters, are not competing with the rest of the field. As @Hollywood 6mm stated, they are looking to gain an edge on the other competitors in their field. In the margins they’re dealing in, everyshot and every second makes the difference. They don’t need those advantages to compete with the other 85% of the field. They’re not even blips on their radar screen...
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Caveat: I'm firmly in the "Money/gear won't make you better" camp, but I will play...
There are going to be advantages to the custom rig, but they're going to be minor. Lighter/more consistent trigger, better glass (better chance of seeing trace, impacts, and misses clearly), custom rig is probably heavier (Barrel contour dependent, weight reduces rifle movement under recoil), custom probably has a better brake (my assumption, also helps with recoil control).
That said, someone like Vibbert, Dave, or another top-end shooter will be able to shoot in the margin between the two, and the non-custom rig will be a slight disadvantage - key word SLIGHT.
The *overwhelming* majority of people, however, will not be able to shoot the difference. Add some weight to the RPR and a better brake, and that list of people will shrink even more. Add better glass and a custom (heavier) barrel, and that list will probably be in the low double to high single digits in the PRS. IMO, the advantages to custom builds are on the fringes, but those fringes add up when you're trying to score top 10 PRS finishes. The ability to tune the weight and balance of the rifle, better reliability in dirty/dusty/wet conditions and at high round counts, being able to fine tune LOP/ butt height/angle (although these are showing up more on factory rifles), being able to spec your barrel to the exact setup you want to run (cartridge, projectile, etc) - all of those come into play with custom builds, but don't factor in for many factory setups - and those small things add up when you're fighting to be at the top of the field on a consistent basis.
TL;DR - In a Vibbert vs Preston scenario, custom rifle likely wins. 90% or more of the PRS field, though, will be hard pressed to shoot the difference in the two. More practice (and GOOD practice, not reinforcing poor habits/skills) and more match experience will benefit most shooters far more than shooting a full custom rig.
See how hard it was to actually articulate the difference?
We spend 1000’s for creature comforts mainly. As well as long term reliability. Not for wins at individual matches.
It’s easy to compare their score to yours and then use gear to justify the difference because it’s what you can see.
The facts are these:
-They are years ahead of you
-They are hundreds of matches ahead of you
-They are 10’s or 100’s of thousands of rounds ahead of you.
-They are millions of dry fires ahead of you
All of those things are what contribute to where they are now. Not the gear they’re running.
You should take consolation in the fact that if it really means that much to you, if you start now and put in the work with solid dedication, you could get there too..
The facts are these:
-They are years ahead of you
-They are hundreds of matches ahead of you
-They are 10’s or 100’s of thousands of rounds ahead of you.
-They are millions of dry fires ahead of you
All of those things are what contribute to where they are now. Not the gear they’re running.
You should take consolation in the fact that if it really means that much to you, if you start now and put in the work with solid dedication, you could get there too..
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This is why I don’t deal with poor people. You take my tax money then complain that your gear isn't good enough.
What else would you like?
Now if y’all would quit bitching, I would like to go back to work and being poor.
What else would you like?
Now if y’all would quit bitching, I would like to go back to work and being poor.
Separate it between those with ANY sponsors and those that don’t have any. Those with sponsors compete only with other sponsored shooters. It is like a garage mechanic trying to compete with a multimillion racing team with an unlimited budget. No way to be competitive unless you can match the money spent.
Then break down the unsponsored shooters to under $500, $500-$1,000 and above $1000.
It does seem silly to try to promote a series where you can’t be competitive unless you spend, spend, spend.
Then break down the unsponsored shooters to under $500, $500-$1,000 and above $1000.
It does seem silly to try to promote a series where you can’t be competitive unless you spend, spend, spend.
You realize its a non compulsory sport right? If you don't want to put in the time and money you're free to not participate. If you want to excel in any sport, understand up front that it will cost you.
Vibbert / Preston could give you their gear to shoot the match with and you still wouldn’t be even close to competitive with them. Results would Be the same if they shot with your gear and you shot with theirs. Your still not going to be competitive with them, because it’s not what you spend, spend, spend that matters. It’s how you practice, practice, practice. That’s the point.
Unless you're trying to be top 10% of the series at the end of the season, you don't have to "spend, spend, spend" to be competitive. If you ARE trying to be in that top 10%, the cost of training time (Range fees, travel to said range, ammo, barrels, etc) will dramatically outweigh the cost of the gear you're using at matches. In the meantime, you can still be very competitive (top 20-30% of the field at a given match, sometimes better) with a relatively low cost rifle and optic and thoughtful gear selection.
Hi,
Ok, so what about this...
If I supply you with a 10k USD system..rifle, scope, etc and you place 1st in match of my choosing you get to keep the system. If you do not place 1st you pay me double what system cost?
IF it is the system aka "Money" that wins then you should have no problem snatching first place, right?
Sincerely,
Theis
Ok, so what about this...
If I supply you with a 10k USD system..rifle, scope, etc and you place 1st in match of my choosing you get to keep the system. If you do not place 1st you pay me double what system cost?
IF it is the system aka "Money" that wins then you should have no problem snatching first place, right?
Sincerely,
Theis
OP
You are from VA, when is the next match you are shooting?
Find a match and squad with Top Jimmy if he’s shooting.
That’s all I’m gonna say.
You are from VA, when is the next match you are shooting?
Find a match and squad with Top Jimmy if he’s shooting.
That’s all I’m gonna say.
You should know there is a huge difference in sponsored shooter vs sponsored shooter. Some guys get stuff free, some guys get a discount that a not a whole lot better than what you can find by deal hunting, some guys are wearing a jersey for their buddies company just to support them.
The majority of us “sponsored” shooters are just guys trying to make it in the sport like the rest. I really don’t think the fact that I saved 8$ on the last mag I bought is gonna bridge the gap.
%100, guy could outshoot most everyone I know with a pocket full of Berger’s and a sling shot.
I've got some pretty generous sponsors (more so than most, honestly) and the majority of the deals I get are still just discounts. I've gotten some free gear beyond the normal stuff due to social media content I have done for them, but even then I am *WELL* in the hole on costs every season.
If serious, you clearly don’t understand how little “sponsored” shooters get.
At best they get free chamber jobs from a smith or a chassis here and there. Most of the time it’s just a small percent off the product. A lot of times, the mil/le discount is close if you qualify for it.
Companies aren’t kicking the door down with free shit or cash, trust me.
Here’s another lesser known fact.....most people out there wearing jerseys aren’t sponsored and they paid for those jerseys.
The part that’s so enflaming about this thread, is 99% of the top guys didn’t start out with a 7-10k set-up. I’m gonna venture to say most people started out with some sort of a factory rifle like a Rem 700 PSS, MilSpec 5R etc in a .308 and shot the shit out of it. Then, after a shit ton of rounds, re-barreled it and had it trued possibly it an a different caliber, maybe installed a brake, large bolt knob, DBM and eventually upgraded as they got more into it and improved. Prior to PRS/NRL, it was all local matches. People shot, ALOT, upgraded gear and became better shooters.
These are the top guys now, but for some reason, newer shooters are coming in, and want immediate gratification, immediate results, immediate recognition and when they don’t get it, blame it on the gear, their lower income and expect everyone else to make accommodations for them so they can get their freaking trophy. People are where they deserve to be.
Earn that shit just like everyone else did and stop making excuses. You want a trophy? Shot at the prize table? Put in the freaking work and earn it, just like everyone else did. Start at the bottom and work your way up. You don’t deserve a damn thing, and it’s nobody else’s fault but yours that you are where you are in life, shooting, PRS/NRL etc etc etc. nobody owes you anything.
The guys complaining are the same guys the night before a match drinking with there buddies, meanwhile the top competitors are in there hotel room dry firing, practicing positional, going over dope, adjusting their gear and getting ready for the match. Then come time for March results, have the balls go and blame their ranking on their lack of gear, and credit the other guys success on the amount of ?? they spent. That’s some Bernie Sanders horse shit.
Most people here participate in these matches because the enjoy shoooting, the comradery, and becoming more proficient marksman. Not for a pat on the ass...
Suck it up, put in the work and quit your whining... there a production class in place. You can get a hell of a great shooting rifle for well under 2k and a optic that will perform with the best of them for well under 2k.
If you can’t afford that, then save your money or find a new hobby.
These are the top guys now, but for some reason, newer shooters are coming in, and want immediate gratification, immediate results, immediate recognition and when they don’t get it, blame it on the gear, their lower income and expect everyone else to make accommodations for them so they can get their freaking trophy. People are where they deserve to be.
Earn that shit just like everyone else did and stop making excuses. You want a trophy? Shot at the prize table? Put in the freaking work and earn it, just like everyone else did. Start at the bottom and work your way up. You don’t deserve a damn thing, and it’s nobody else’s fault but yours that you are where you are in life, shooting, PRS/NRL etc etc etc. nobody owes you anything.
The guys complaining are the same guys the night before a match drinking with there buddies, meanwhile the top competitors are in there hotel room dry firing, practicing positional, going over dope, adjusting their gear and getting ready for the match. Then come time for March results, have the balls go and blame their ranking on their lack of gear, and credit the other guys success on the amount of ?? they spent. That’s some Bernie Sanders horse shit.
Most people here participate in these matches because the enjoy shoooting, the comradery, and becoming more proficient marksman. Not for a pat on the ass...
Suck it up, put in the work and quit your whining... there a production class in place. You can get a hell of a great shooting rifle for well under 2k and a optic that will perform with the best of them for well under 2k.
If you can’t afford that, then save your money or find a new hobby.
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I’ve got the perfect example.
Long story short, myself and the PRS community put together a rifle for a new shooter, a guy that wouldn’t have the income to do so himself. Turned out being a really nice rifle with a bighorn and a 6br hawk hill. He shot his first match, the frontline fury 2 day national match. Do you know where he placed? 112th? I think.
How come he didn’t win with that great rifle? How come he didn’t even come close?
And you know what the best part is? His attitude. He knows exactly what it was and has been putting in the time to become a better shooter. And because of that, he will be.
Long story short, myself and the PRS community put together a rifle for a new shooter, a guy that wouldn’t have the income to do so himself. Turned out being a really nice rifle with a bighorn and a 6br hawk hill. He shot his first match, the frontline fury 2 day national match. Do you know where he placed? 112th? I think.
How come he didn’t win with that great rifle? How come he didn’t even come close?
And you know what the best part is? His attitude. He knows exactly what it was and has been putting in the time to become a better shooter. And because of that, he will be.
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Had you built a dasher instead, he’d have won. You built him a fudd 6br.......
Some of you think the jersey means everything is free. While some things are free, and others are discounted, I still spend an egregious amount of money to play this game every year. It’s a huge net loss but I enjoy the competitive nature of the sport and find it worth it.
Dude that’s the best part. That’s like having a match without a prize table. And we all know.... no prize table, no match.
Lol, got to have trophy’s dude. That is of course the reason we’re all here.......
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Don't say dude, it's bro and yo now based on the cooler posts in this thread... and you're right, I should be more cool and have a prize table mentality but the fact that I've lost a front tooth in a fight makes me a winner from my younger days...I need to share the wealth I think, but can't guarantee a win at this time and like hamburgers
