Rifle Scopes New High End Tactical article

[koshkin]

I know you've sent the ZP5 back, but curious your thoughts on the M7Xi and ZP5 especially with regard to low light performance, color, contrast and depth.

I have not sent your scope back yet, so I'll be doing another low light side-by-side tonight.

ILya

 

[Glassaholic]

I have not sent your scope back yet, so I'll be doing another low light side-by-side tonight.

ILya

Fantastic, I look forward to seeing the results

 

[Burdy]

Like I said, probably a topic for another thread, but real quick. My question is "why", why have a "zero stop" that doesn't actually "stop" at zero? Yes, I get that with different conditions your zero can change and many manufacture's put the extra in for "wiggle room" lets call it but instead of doing that, why not make a better zero stop design which can easily be adjusted, but maybe this is where the Tangent Theta's unique tool-less reset really comes into play, my March scopes also had a very easy zero stop feature that I really liked as well. Some scopes allow you to adjust exactly where you want the zero stop to stop, but others force this upon you and most zero stop configurations are a pain to deal with on the fly. Maybe it's more of a mental thing and I just need to wrap my mind around it better - if my Schmidt stops at .6 mil under, my ZP5 stops at .5 mil under and my Kahles stops at .4 mil under that's a jumbled mess in my brain, I don't want to have to remember if I'm shooting one rifle or the other, I want to know that when I dial down and the turret stops, that it stopped at zero and not have to think, "now that it stopped, how much do I have to dial back up to actually get to zero". Most of the time that I shoot I am not under stress and am able to confirm zero by simply looking at the turret, but I would prefer the zero stop to be easily set and easily changed, but to always stop on zero. Again, it could just be the way my brain works and I just need to get over it.

In agreement completely. If I want 5 stops back its because I set the zero stop there.

 

[M289]

Does anyone know how the Tangent Theta Gen3 XR Reticle looks on lower magnifications?
I saw the photo's from @koshkin on Instagram but the resolution is a bit low.

Any chance on a better photo or nice reticle datasheet that shows more than just the reticle at max magnification?

 

[koshkin]

 

[M289]

Thanks! Although still only available at a resolution of 640 × 640 pixels ? (Which was great in 1984....)

@koshkin mr. Dark Lord: Would you say the TT525P with Gen3 XR reticle is a suitable scope for ELR purposes (2000 meters)?
Looking at the ZC527 and S&B 3-27x56 as alternatives because of their generous range of elevation adjustment (35 MIL) compared to the 28 MIL of the Tangent Theta.
Also, the Gen3 XR reticle does not seem to be made for holds of more than 10 MIL because of the thick vertical bar.

Any recommendations?

 

[koshkin]

Thanks! Although still only available at a resolution of 640 × 640 pixels ? (Which was great in 1984....)

@koshkin mr. Dark Lord: Would you say the TT525P with Gen3 XR reticle is a suitable scope for ELR purposes (2000 meters)?
Looking at the ZC527 and S&B 3-27x56 as alternatives because of their generous range of elevation adjustment (35 MIL) compared to the 28 MIL of the Tangent Theta.
Also, the Gen3 XR reticle does not seem to be made for holds of more than 10 MIL because of the thick vertical bar.

Any recommendations?

It is a good ELR scope with the right mounts.

It is generally best to restrict dining to the center prob if the image, i.e. somewhere the 10-20 mrad circle around the center. Beyong that, you should dial it is a combination of dialling and reticle holds.

ILya

 

[VaRandy]

I do not do tall target tests too much. I have a different way of checking click accuracy. I do a limited live fire adjustment check which is kinda like a tall target test, except I have a lot of flexibility in choosing the distance. The most important thing there is to make sure that the reticle matches the turrets.

I am not sure what you mean by 100 full range clicks.

ILya

A durability test where you cover the entire range of clicks, up, then down, to represent the wear that SOME will give that scope in its lifetime. If a scope has glass that suffices it can be determined before you buy it. Durability of clicks? NOT, This is where most scope failures would be found. After the severe test, go back to ensure the distances are still correct on tall target or equivalent.

 

[davere]

Looking at the reticle videos - Ilya, you mentioned that you wished the center dot in the GR2ID would stand out more. Just curious if you gave thought to using illumination? It seems like S&B designed illumination in the reticle to be used all the time to highlight particular areas of the reticle (knowing that it was a competition specific reticle, and the vast majority of shooting competitions occur during daylight hours). I don't know what I think of the reticle overall, at this point, but I thought it was a cool idea, using a second color to add a new dimension to the reticle. I was hoping you'd turn it on for the video so I could see it in practice!

 

[koshkin]

A durability test where you cover the entire range of clicks, up, then down, to represent the wear that SOME will give that scope in its lifetime. If a scope has glass that suffices it can be determined before you buy it. Durability of clicks? NOT, This is where most scope failures would be found. After the severe test, go back to ensure the distances are still correct on tall target or equivalent.

I see. Doing the 100 click thing on one scope really does not do a whole lot since it is a sample of one and this kind of thing is very much statistical (and it is not close to the full range of adjustment). Many other things are design driven and testing one scope gives you a reasonable idea. Click durability is not one of those unfortunately. Besids, I know the extent that some of the manufacturers go to in order to test for this and there is not way I can replicate that without investment. This is something that is commonly referred to as "lifecycle longevity" and most manufacturers test the hell out of this.


I do spend a lot of time twisting the turrets through the whole adjustment range, partly to break them in and partly to get a good idea of the feel and of how optical quality changes with W/E setting. Tracking test are done after that.

ILya

 

[viking78]

I have been testing for a week now Steiner M7Xi 4-28x56scope.
Awesome glass, just freaking awesome.
Reticle is not the idealist, but it´s not bad, G2D reticle.
Zero stop is also very nice, much like a Kahles K624i i have, easy to adjust.
So far i have shot 100-zero and some 100-m and 300-m shooting, just waiting to get to a longer range.

 

[koshkin]

Looking at the reticle videos - Ilya, you mentioned that you wished the center dot in the GR2ID would stand out more. Just curious if you gave thought to using illumination? It seems like S&B designed illumination in the reticle to be used all the time to highlight particular areas of the reticle (knowing that it was a competition specific reticle, and the vast majority of shooting competitions occur during daylight hours). I don't know what I think of the reticle overall, at this point, but I thought it was a cool idea, using a second color to add a new dimension to the reticle. I was hoping you'd turn it on for the video so I could see it in practice!

I will test the illumination across a range of lighting conditions. So far I have only looked at it in low light. I plan to make a video with it on.

ILya

 

[Glassaholic]

Was watching ILya's video of the through the scope reticle images and was intrigued with the GR2ID reticle at lower mags, it truly does seem to disappear more so than the Horus rets for sure. Of those reticles I really liked the Gen 3XR and MR4, but I'm minimalist when it comes to tree reticles; the SKMR3 and MPCT2 are nice as well but they have the solid horizontal stadia in the tree which I don't like as much as the dots of the Gen 3XR and MR4.

 

[koshkin]

Was watching ILya's video of the through the scope reticle images and was intrigued with the GR2ID reticle at lower mags, it truly does seem to disappear more so than the Horus rets for sure. Of those reticles I really liked the Gen 3XR and MR4, but I'm minimalist when it comes to tree reticles; the SKMR3 and MPCT2 are nice as well but they have the solid horizontal stadia in the tree which I don't like as much as the dots of the Gen 3XR and MR4.

The illumination makes a big difference for GR2ID. When there is a grid like in the GR2ID or Horus, I really do not want to see it on low powers. To accomodate that, you either have to have good illumination like S&B does or additional reticle features that stay visible on low power. Both are viable approaches.

ILya

 

[generalzip]

I saw a Schmidt GR2ID reticle that when the illumination was on it was not perfectly overlayed. Almost as it it wasn't lighting up the etcing but was it's own image. Never seen that before. It had about .1 mil worth of error in it.

 

[frost1235]

Oh man, right when I thought I had decided on a scope!!
I'm basically stalking your posts as a guide to purchasing a high end scope, and you are NOT letting me down!!!
Thank you for all the hard work!

 

[koshkin]

I saw a Schmidt GR2ID reticle that when the illumination was on it was not perfectly overlayed. Almost as it it wasn't lighting up the etcing but was it's own image. Never seen that before. It had about .1 mil worth of error in it.

Was the eyepiece screwed out all the way? I have seen a weird effect in a few scopes where with the eyepiece all the way out it looks like the reticle illumination was not in the same plane as the etched reticle which is patently impossible. I have no idea how to explain it, but I have seen it with my own eyes.

Generally, GR2ID reticle is stands out just fine on low power during the day unless you are looking into the shadows where illumination helps. Same for low light.

 

[koshkin]

Thanks! Although still only available at a resolution of 640 × 640 pixels ? (Which was great in 1984....)

@koshkin mr. Dark Lord: Would you say the TT525P with Gen3 XR reticle is a suitable scope for ELR purposes (2000 meters)?
Looking at the ZC527 and S&B 3-27x56 as alternatives because of their generous range of elevation adjustment (35 MIL) compared to the 28 MIL of the Tangent Theta.
Also, the Gen3 XR reticle does not seem to be made for holds of more than 10 MIL because of the thick vertical bar.

Any recommendations?

 

[thexman]

I have played with the 3-27x56 a bit, but I have not done a full review. It is a good scope, but at higher mags I somewhat prefer the image of the 5-25x. 3-27x definitely has the edg eon lower powers with its broader mag range and lack of tunneling.

In this particular case, I really wanted to see the GR2ID reticle, which is why I ended up with the 5-25x56.

For my personal use, I am fairly particular about reticles, so I have been largely ignoring Schmidt for a little while due to the reticle selection. GR2ID rekindled my interest in S&B, hence that is the scope I am looking at.

As far as adjustment range goes, honestly, I have never needed to dial that much. Vast majority of the shooting I do is within 12 mrad.

ILya

So just want to confirm that, the S&B 3-27x56 does not have tunneling issue on low magnification like the 5-25x56 now?

 

[koshkin]

So just want to confirm that, the S&B 3-27x56 does not have tunneling issue on low magnification like the 5-25x56 now?

Not to the best of my recollection. Newer S&B scopes do not have tunnelling.

ILya

 

[JB.IC]

Not to the best of my recollection. Newer S&B scopes do not have tunnelling.

ILya

My 3-27x PM2 has zero tunnel and an awesome FOV

 

[Burdy]

Impossible to judge from the images in the videos, but I am liking the S&B and ZCO image quality over everything else and I am shocked at how much I like the GR2ID reticle. On paper, I don't like it, but in practice there seems to be a ton of open space with all the info very easy to read at a quick glance.

 

[Glassaholic]

Impossible to judge from the images in the videos, but I am liking the S&B and ZCO image quality over everything else and I am shocked at how much I like the GR2ID reticle. On paper, I don't like it, but in practice there seems to be a ton of open space with all the info very easy to read at a quick glance.

It is hard to tell through video/images because the imaging device has its own lenses with certain color cast, etc. that affects how the image looks vs. looking with your naked eye, also, we are all different with what our eyes see and what our brain interprets as "pleasing". I have used many scopes and the Schmidt's always give that "OMG" moment when looking through them, the only scope I've found to be better in this category is my ZP5 and I'm guessing that TT and ZCO may have an edge as well as ILya mentions this in the review. This is not to say other scopes don't hold their own but it's the overall "look" of Schmidt and ZP5 that I find so pleasing to my eye, for others they may prefer different color cast, contrast, etc. This is what's great about optics these days, there are so many top options to choose from there should be something to please everyone.

 

[koshkin]

It is hard to tell through video/images because the imaging device has its own lenses with certain color cast, etc. that affects how the image looks vs. looking with your naked eye, also, we are all different with what our eyes see and what our brain interprets as "pleasing". I have used many scopes and the Schmidt's always give that "OMG" moment when looking through them, the only scope I've found to be better in this category is my ZP5 and I'm guessing that TT and ZCO may have an edge as well as ILya mentions this in the review. This is not to say other scopes don't hold their own but it's the overall "look" of Schmidt and ZP5 that I find so pleasing to my eye, for others they may prefer different color cast, contrast, etc. This is what's great about optics these days, there are so many top options to choose from there should be something to please everyone.

In terms of overall image quality, it si TT>ZCO>=Minox>S&B. The differences between these are not big. At 12x or so, they are virtually interchangeable. TT pulls ahead a little at longer distances and with challenging atmospheric conditions.

Reticles are in the eye of the beholder. I am also surprised at how much I like GR2ID, but I could live with any of these. I have a lot of mileage with MR4 and Gen 3 XR and by the time I am done I will be fairly proficient with GR2ID and MPCT2 as well.

Bill, for what it is worth, I have seen a few ZP5 scopes and yours is easily among the better ones optically.

ILya

 

[M289]

In terms of overall image quality, it si TT>ZCO>=Minox>S&B. The differences between these are not big. At 12x or so, they are virtually interchangeable. TT pulls ahead a little at longer distances and with challenging atmospheric conditions.

Reticles are in the eye of the beholder. I am also surprised at how much I like GR2ID, but I could live with any of these. I have a lot of mileage with MR4 and Gen 3 XR and by the time I am done I will be fairly proficient with GR2ID and MPCT2 as well.

Bill, for what it is worth, I have seen a few ZP5 scopes and yours is easily among the better ones optically.

ILya

I am surprised, or shocked actually, that Schmidt & Bender is at the back of that list.
While everyone seems to agree that the Tangent Theta is great, I expected more from Schmidt & Bender.

Is this specific for the older 5-25 model, or would that also apply to their newer 3-27 model?

 

[M289]

Thanks, that is the ZC527 MPCT-2 right?
Would be awesome if you had high resolution images of the zoom levels for those scopes on your website

 

[hk dave]

I am surprised, or shocked actually, that Schmidt & Bender is at the back of that list.
While everyone seems to agree that the Tangent Theta is great, Iexpected more from Schmidt & Bender.

Is this specific for th older 5-25 model, or would that also apply to their newer 3-27 model?

I’d wager the differences are pretty small.

 

[M289]

I’d wager the differences are pretty small.

Between the 5-25 and 3-27 or do you mean differences in general between these scopes?

Here in Europe, the price of a Tangent Theta TT525P is about the same as a Schmidt & Bender 3-27x56 PMII High Power. That makes it, at least for me, difficult to select one for my rifle.

 

[generalzip]

I am surprised, or shocked actually, that Schmidt & Bender is at the back of that list.
While everyone seems to agree that the Tangent Theta is great, I expected more from Schmidt & Bender.

Is this specific for the older 5-25 model, or would that also apply to their newer 3-27 model?

It’s somewhat subjective. I’d personally put Schmidt ahead of minox for glass and about even with ZCO on that list. Glass wise the tangent is the king though especially in challenging conditions and mirage as koshkin stated.

 

[Glassaholic]

Between the 5-25 and 3-27 or do you mean differences in general between these scopes?

The 5-25 and the 3-27 had different designers working on the overall optical formula, same with the Ultra Shorts if I remember correctly, so even though they are both Schmidt they are both different designs and as such will perform differently. 5-25 is still a force to be reckoned with even though it is the oldest design of the bunch, the 3-27 seems to be in a class by itself, is it better/worse optically than the 5-25 is hard to say, most 3-27 owners never want to go back to anything else. These scopes are all so good I don't think you have to worry about missing anything with them, whether the 5-25 can resolve one more gnat hair than the 3-27 at 20x is probably not going to make a difference in the long run.

 

[Glassaholic]

Bill, for what it is worth, I have seen a few ZP5 scopes and yours is easily among the better ones optically.

ILya

Just make sure you send the right scope back to me This might explain why in another thread on the ZP5 some have talked about QC issues and their copies of the ZP5 not performing so well.

Seriously, how did I get so lucky with the ZP5 and K318i, but this attests to a point I've made before, when we do these scope reviews we are usually sampling one scope and if there is wide sample variation within a particular model that can be somewhat deceiving. For example, my copy of the Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44 really struggled optically while the copy you had you've mentioned performed very well for an ultra short. Does that make you or I wrong in our assessment, not necessarily, what it means is that sample variation may be such that some models are poorer performers than others. We see this in camera lenses as well, but with certain hardware/software we can determine if the lens is a "dud", I can't tell you how many times I've seen on camera forums "my copy sucked so I sent it back" but pixel peeping a 45MP image will show a lot more defects I'd imagine than what we can see through the riflescope with our naked eye.

Along this same line, is it possible the copy of the K525i you had was a "dud"? Have you been able to look through other K525i's to ascertain if this one performed more poorly than the average?

 

[koshkin]

I have had limited hands on time with with 6 or 7 K525i scopes. This is the first time I was able to spend a significant amount of time with one. I think it is about midpack for K525.

ILya

 

[psychosniper]

Thanks, that is the ZC527 MPCT-2 right?
Would be awesome if you had high resolution images of the zoom levels for those scopes on your website

I could be wrong but judging by the CA present, this is the K525i and it appears to be the SKMR3.

 

[M289]

I could be wrong but judging by the CA present, this is the K525i and it appears to the the SKMR3.

Oh! I think you’re right.

 

[koshkin]

I am surprised, or shocked actually, that Schmidt & Bender is at the back of that list.
While everyone seems to agree that the Tangent Theta is great, I expected more from Schmidt & Bender.

Is this specific for the older 5-25 model, or would that also apply to their newer 3-27 model?

This is specific to the actual scopes I am looking at. With some I have seen quite a few, so I know whether the one I am looking it is an outlier or not. Some are new to me.

With ZCO, Steiner M7Xi and Leupold Mark 5, these are the only samples I have seen. With the others, I have seen a few over the years.

With TT, ZCO, Minox and S&B, the differences are small and largely pertain to depth of field and microcontrast.

ILya

 

[Dthomas3523]

If Ilya is ever found dead.......Kahles did it.

 

[koshkin]

If Ilya is ever found dead.......Kahles did it.

There is a long list of interested parties. I doubt Kahles is in the top five.

ILya

 

[Dthomas3523]

There is a long list of interested parties. I doubt Kahles is in the top five.

ILya

In the high end market, besides Schmidt and the atacr 7-35, are there any optics you would recommend that have parallax adjustment at less than 25 yards?

My zco are rated 25 meter and are able to dial out parallax at about 27-30yds somewhere. So it’s wirhin spec. But looking for something that will work less than 25 yards.

Or is Schmidt just gonna be the got to for this?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I am surprised, or shocked actually, that Schmidt & Bender is at the back of that list.
While everyone seems to agree that the Tangent Theta is great, I expected more from Schmidt & Bender.

Is this specific for the older 5-25 model, or would that also apply to their newer 3-27 model?

Keep in mind, it’s at the “back of the list” in a list of the top optics on the market. And it’s not far behind.

It’s also a design that’s been around forever without any real updates (testament as to how far ahead of the game Schmidt was).

I don’t find it surprising at all.

 

[koshkin]

In the high end market, besides Schmidt and the atacr 7-35, are there any optics you would recommend that have parallax adjustment at less than 25 yards?

My zco are rated 25 meter and are able to dial out parallax at about 27-30yds somewhere. So it’s wirhin spec. But looking for something that will work less than 25 yards.

Or is Schmidt just gonna be the got to for this?

I habitually distrust specs, so if I am looking for a scope to shoot at 25 yards, I will get one that is supposed to focus down to 20 or less.

With that in mind, I think it is down to S&B, Nightforce and March on the high end.

As you go a little bit down in price, options open up somewhat with Sightron SV among others.

ILya

 

[Glassaholic]

In the high end market, besides Schmidt and the atacr 7-35, are there any optics you would recommend that have parallax adjustment at less than 25 yards?

My zco are rated 25 meter and are able to dial out parallax at about 27-30yds somewhere. So it’s wirhin spec. But looking for something that will work less than 25 yards.

Or is Schmidt just gonna be the got to for this?

The new Burris XTR III 5.5-30x56 focuses down to 20y but of course we don't know much about these scopes. Also, the Vortex AMG goes to 25y.

 

[hk dave]

Between the 5-25 and 3-27 or do you mean differences in general between these scopes?

Here in Europe, the price of a Tangent Theta TT525P is about the same as a Schmidt & Bender 3-27x56 PMII High Power. That makes it, at least for me, difficult to select one for my rifle.

I meant in general between the scopes Ilya mentioned. I've also looked extensively through all of them except the ZCO, and the differences were pretty minor. There are clear winners when you look at them side by side and focus on details, but generally, they're pretty close.

I have a ZCO coming soon. Looking forward to comparing myself.

 

[hk dave]

Just make sure you send the right scope back to me This might explain why in another thread on the ZP5 some have talked about QC issues and their copies of the ZP5 not performing so well.

Seriously, how did I get so lucky with the ZP5 and K318i, but this attests to a point I've made before, when we do these scope reviews we are usually sampling one scope and if there is wide sample variation within a particular model that can be somewhat deceiving. For example, my copy of the Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44 really struggled optically while the copy you had you've mentioned performed very well for an ultra short. Does that make you or I wrong in our assessment, not necessarily, what it means is that sample variation may be such that some models are poorer performers than others. We see this in camera lenses as well, but with certain hardware/software we can determine if the lens is a "dud", I can't tell you how many times I've seen on camera forums "my copy sucked so I sent it back" but pixel peeping a 45MP image will show a lot more defects I'd imagine than what we can see through the riflescope with our naked eye.

Along this same line, is it possible the copy of the K525i you had was a "dud"? Have you been able to look through other K525i's to ascertain if this one performed more poorly than the average?

It's interesting what Ilya said in his experience with the ZP5. I must have gotten lucky and got 2 exceptional ones.

I would love to look through one with QC issues.

 

[Burdy]

Moral of the story is you likely need the other 3 scopes side by side to tell the difference in the one you picked...so buy the reticle and features, sleep well and just go shoot.

 

[Country]

He's just going to keep all the scopes and move to Alaska

 

[koshkin]

It's interesting what Ilya said in his experience with the ZP5. I must have gotten lucky and got 2 exceptional ones.

I would love to look through one with QC issues.

I've seen two with optical issues and ten or so that were good.

ILya

 

[Gil P.]

This grid reticle looks great. I just don’t understand why SB has no plans to move the reticle to the 5-20 US and other models other than the 5-25. Doing themselves a huge disservice I think.

Maybe they can't? S&B can't use the version of the MSR 2 with the .2 divisions on the center cross in the 3-27. I wonder why it has limitations on reticles.

 

[M289]

Maybe they can't? S&B can't use the version of the MSR 2 with the .2 divisions on the center cross in the 3-27. I wonder why it has limitations on reticles.

I took a look at the MSR2 reticle datasheet and the 3-27 MSR2 datasheet and you are right. I wonder why they did that.

 

[JB.IC]

This grid reticle looks great. I just don’t understand why SB has no plans to move the reticle to the 5-20 US and other models other than the 5-25. Doing themselves a huge disservice I think.

Or they’re trying to move 5-25 inventory and then once they’re satisfied, they’ll put the reticle in other models. They may even have just chosen the 5-25 first and then will expand once the R&D is finished for the other models. This stuff takes time. I’m willing to bet they want to move inventory and then will expand

 

[charnicus]

I have been testing for a week now Steiner M7Xi 4-28x56scope.
Awesome glass, just freaking awesome.
Reticle is not the idealist, but it´s not bad, G2D reticle.
Zero stop is also very nice, much like a Kahles K624i i have, easy to adjust.
So far i have shot 100-zero and some 100-m and 300-m shooting, just waiting to get to a longer range.
View attachment 7102382

This is the scope I have the most interest in personally. Tangent is beautiful but I like what the Steiner offers with regards to overall size and magnification range. Not to mention more competitive pricing.