It does play a factor because Norma needs 2 additional grains of powder to match Winchester, which is what Hodgdon uses for their data.
With respect to mag length, a 3.750” coal requires one hell of a long freebore.
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!!! new Hodgedon powder new load data Update 1/21 !!!!!
- Thread starter deepsix++
- Start date
It does play a factor because Norma needs 2 additional grains of powder to match Winchester, which is what Hodgdon uses for their data.
With respect to mag length, a 3.750” coal requires one hell of a long freebore.
I’m not talking about weight sorting brass. I’m talking about the importance of cartridge details when looking at data, end user vs published.
Thanks for letting us off the hook . Lol.
Yep, I used H1000 and 225's in Peterson brass. 76.2 to 76.4 gr was giving me 2870 to 2880 with great groups... But I would get heavy bolt lift on 90°+ days.
The other node was where you recommended... I saw it trying to tighten at 74.3 and 74.6 with 2800 to 2830, but the ES/SD's weren't as good. I was using BR2's so I might be able to tweak it with a magnum primer. Just have to try it and see.
I have 2+ lbs. of H1000 left to play with. But a buddy of mine bought his first rifle and wants to work on shooting 1k with 190 SMK's... So I've been playing with them. The 225's/H1000 are on the back burner for now.
I may pick up a few pounds of HD and crack open my Retumbo and see what happens... But I'll probably wait until the weather gets nicer. I get as antsy as a kid at Christmas once I load rounds and have to wait for time off and decent weather to align with the stars.
Mike
Try a magnum primer with 75-75.5 grains. I’m getting 2850-2860 FPS out of a 26” Bartlein in ADG brass which is similar to yours and no pressure, though it is cold.
The BR2's are a fantastic primer in nice weather... Single digit ES with Power Pro 4000 MR. But if you get too much below 50° F with magnum rifle powders, the numbers start getting wonky and I've had hangfires.
So yeah, I have a full brick of Fed 215's (not GMM sadly) I haven't touched... and a brick and a half of Rem. 9½M too.
I have no evidence to back it up... But my own experience leads me to believe that primers may play a part in just how "temp sensitive" some powders may be. I certainly believe powders can see effects of temp change, but I believe primers may exacerbate it some too. I may take some heat for that but I'll stand by it.
Mike
It's hard to load for seasonal weather this far south... They're calling for snow tomorrow. But next week we may be in shorts/flip flops. Lol.
Mike
If you're trying to judge pressures by looking at primers, you'll end up all over the place and way off from reality. Primers are a very poor correlation with pressure, as you saw from your softer primers. Of course, be wary of mistaking ejector hole swipes for high pressure too - just a swipe is usually an indication of over gassing, but if you have an actual indention then it may be pressure. In my rifles with proper gas adjustment for a particular load, high pressure usually shows up as brass flow into the ejector hole and primer pocket loosening. Both are indications that pressure is way above max published numbers, so back off a bit from that.
Also, IMO your Lever loads are likely pretty mild. It depends on the rifle of course, but in the 5 different 5.56 rifles I have right now, I'm using 27.0gr of Lever with the 75 BTHP with no pressure signs.
You are correct that SD goes down as pressure goes up with Lever; IME it shoots best with hot loads. I've found this so consistently true that now my workup for Lever is to find max pressure, back off to whatever I consider safe for that load, and then adjust seating depth for accuracy. I don't mess with powder charge beyond that; every time I have it's proven that the top end load shoots best. (Of course you need to tune the gas for Lever, if it's adjusted for something like Varget it'll be way overgassed with a full dose of Lever, and can make the rifle shoot poorly too.)
Has anyone tested Staball Match in 6.5 Grendel? I'm looking at trying it out when two lbs comes in for the 123gr Hornady bullets.
How da fuck were you blowing primers with 77grs of H1000 in a Norma case? Do you have one of those super tight chambers where you have to turn necks and the shoulder doesn’t move very much?
it was a particularly hot day and the chamber was somewhat tight , no neck turning or anything , I blew like one primer
You must have a mechanical problem with the rifle. Your load is about 2 grains under max.
Yeah I agree reading primers isn't reliable. Same for swipes in an AR. All those loads I'd listed were shot from a bolt gun (ARC Nuke). That action has a small tight fitting firing pin & no ejector hole, just the thin slot for the Springfield style blade. I've neve had brass flow into that. Damn thing hides pressure really well. I've never had a hard bolt lift with an ARC action. I try to look at for changes in the radius at the edge of the primers on these. The fact that primer flowed at the pin sent up flags for me about soft primers. We'll see when I repeat the same loads with BR4's or Fed 205AR's.
Just shot the first Staball Match & Lever loads from the 18" AR today. I'd say your spot on with my Lever loads being mild, SD's showed it. Speeds were still good, but I'm going to try 2 more steps with both Lever and match loaded out a little longer.
In the MK262 clone test today the 77smk liked Accurate 2520 & Tac best in my gun. I'm hoping Match acts like Lever and improves with a little higher charge? I want the match to work since it's temp stable. The 77RDF's continue to impress me with Lever. The Valk & this 223W love them. The surprise for me today was the 73eldm. I had low expectations & they shot very well.
I'm just more used to reading pressure in AR's. Got a little to hot with the Vit N135 today and got some ejector indentations + 1 blanked primer. Didn't blow it out just punched it at the pin. That's what Blanked means to me anyway.
AR 223W 8T 18" Proof CF Edit: update 1/28/23
MK 262 Mod 1 clone attempt
Comparison load - Black Hills White box 5.56 Lot #BLH04L061-001 Contract #W911SF-04-D-0007 (brass is WCC 04)
2721 SD 19.5 no group data cause it was way high after scope sight in @50
77SMK no canalure @2.253 Bolt lock
Staball Match
25.1 2772 / 3.6 / .822" No bolt lock on empty
25.4 2804 / 11.5 / .819" No bolt lock, no swipes, no flow
Try 1 x fired with 205AR primer
25.4
25.7
Accurate 2520
25.1 2735 / 6.0 / .464" Bolt lock
25.4 2786 / 10.0 / .175" Bolt lock
TAC
25.0 2801 / 6.0 / .686" Bolt lock
25.3 2827 / 3.7 / .511" Bolt lock
Lever
25.9 2814 / 10.8 / .653" No bolt lock
26.2 2829 / 9.5 / .649" No bolt lock
Try 1 x with 205AR primer
26.5
26.8
77RDF @2.292
Staball Match
25.1 Did not shoot
25.4 Did not shoot
25.7 Did not shoot
Lever
25.7 2731 / 4.5 / .305" opened block 3 clicks & still no lock
26.0 2747 / 18.8 / .439" 2 more clicks = bolt lock. No swipes, no flow.
Try
26.3
26.7
Bonus try
73 ELDM @2.292/1.827
Match
25.6 Did not shoot
25.9 Did not shoot
26.2 Did not shoot
Vit N135
23.4 2825 / 23.4 / .479" bolt lock
23.7 2859 / 8.6 / .735" bolt lock, swipes
24.0 2877 / 8.1 / .336" blanked 1 primer, to hot
Lever
26.4 2857 / 15.1 / .804" bolt lock
26.7 2877 / 14.7 / .337" bolt lock, no primer flow, no swipes
Try
27.0
27.3
MK 262 Mod 1 clone attempt
Comparison load - Black Hills White box 5.56 Lot #BLH04L061-001 Contract #W911SF-04-D-0007 (brass is WCC 04)
2721 SD 19.5 no group data cause it was way high after scope sight in @50
77SMK no canalure @2.253 Bolt lock
Staball Match
25.1 2772 / 3.6 / .822" No bolt lock on empty
25.4 2804 / 11.5 / .819" No bolt lock, no swipes, no flow
Try 1 x fired with 205AR primer
25.4
25.7
Accurate 2520
25.1 2735 / 6.0 / .464" Bolt lock
25.4 2786 / 10.0 / .175" Bolt lock
TAC
25.0 2801 / 6.0 / .686" Bolt lock
25.3 2827 / 3.7 / .511" Bolt lock
Lever
25.9 2814 / 10.8 / .653" No bolt lock
26.2 2829 / 9.5 / .649" No bolt lock
Try 1 x with 205AR primer
26.5
26.8
77RDF @2.292
Staball Match
25.1 Did not shoot
25.4 Did not shoot
25.7 Did not shoot
Lever
25.7 2731 / 4.5 / .305" opened block 3 clicks & still no lock
26.0 2747 / 18.8 / .439" 2 more clicks = bolt lock. No swipes, no flow.
Try
26.3
26.7
Bonus try
73 ELDM @2.292/1.827
Match
25.6 Did not shoot
25.9 Did not shoot
26.2 Did not shoot
Vit N135
23.4 2825 / 23.4 / .479" bolt lock
23.7 2859 / 8.6 / .735" bolt lock, swipes
24.0 2877 / 8.1 / .336" blanked 1 primer, to hot
Lever
26.4 2857 / 15.1 / .804" bolt lock
26.7 2877 / 14.7 / .337" bolt lock, no primer flow, no swipes
Try
27.0
27.3
In a rifle like that then, I'd suggest you're probably just wasting powder at anything below about 27.0gr; I'd be working up from there and finding what the rifle can really do with it. If you can load out to a much longer OAL than an AR, that'll factor in as well.
I noticed you're using the same powder charges with several different powders, but Lever almost always ends up at a heavier charge than everything else for the max (and best) load. Talking about cartridges like this where Lever is a good match of course.
Anyone ran Staball Match in 6GT or 6.5x47? Given the burn rate being similar to varget i imagine it will be decent.
I would think 6.5 Staball would be better than Match for GT or the x47L, as it was designed for 6.5C, but you never know. Guys are apparently getting really great velocity in 77gr .223 with Match, and Varget can do well in that situation as well though usually a little slower than TAC or 8208.
Everything I've found for 6.5x47 6.5 Staball was very meh. If match is that close to varget it should be more viable. Considering varget the go to for 6.5x47.
