Range Report New M118LR loading from Federal

[kombayotch]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

So on one give day, at one single temperature it matched... so what? The current M118LR uses RL-15. Do Varget and RL-15 vary the same over temperature? Somehow I doubt it. Will Varget and the new powder? Maybe. In either case, you can't match two curves with only one data point. What is the point of matching a military load if your load doesn't track with it over the whole temperature range? There are much better bullets to base a load on than the trendy 175 SMK if you aren't going to go the distance. I wouldn't shoot 175 SMKs as a standard load... more interested in applying what I learn doing this to my other loads. I'd like to revisit the temperature stability of RL-17 using magnum primers now.

Anyway...

I repeated the experiment tonight with greater care and thermometers that had a greater range and also fit in the cooler better. I also lower the heating by one setting. And I confirmed that my barrel is shooting slower with several loads.

Got these results tonight:

Not significantly different from the trend line above. Says 59 fps variation from 0F to 100F.

I think there is an error in the high end of the 190 + Varget data. I shot those earlier, so they may not have been at that temperature internally. If we assume that the relationship is linear and that the middle and low end are ok, the curve should look more like this:

<span style="font-weight: bold">***new data posted***</span>

That Varget data is highly suspect to me now... I'm tempted to try 175s with Varget and both standard and magnum primers to see how they compare to this in terms of temperature stability and flash.

 

[81STFACP]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Good job Dr.K.

 

[81STFACP]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys make this too complicated!

For a factory BBL - and your mileage may vary,

45.0 Varget
Fed 210M
SMK 175
Black HIlls Winchester brass.

2710fps.

It chronoed EXACTLY the same as M118LR did on the same day, with the same rifle.

It works, so I never changed it.
</div></div>

I have and can also duplicate the current M118LR with IMR 4895, IMR 4064, and N540, but these loads are irrelevant to the pursuit being undertaken. The thrill of the hunt...

In matches I do shoot Berger 185s, not the 175 SMKs.

On a related subject, back in 95/96 when I first started my 223 mid to long range load development with N540, after testing every primer available at that time I settled on using the CCI450 Magnums on the little case. I tested loads on target from 600 to 1K through winter and summer and no primer equaled the CCI450 for the tight water line and grouping.

 

[bmbrzmn101]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Tag for later reading.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Alright, lets do a bit of analysis...

What kind of temperature stability are we looking for? Well, the document LiteTac posted gives us an idea.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a quote about the new MK 248 Mod1 300 Win Mag
https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N00164/N0016409RJN30000209RJN30_0002_att.pdf It is safe to click.

3.6.1 Velocity. (M105) [The corrected average muzzle velocity of the cartridges conditioned at 70° ± 5° Fahrenheit (F) shall be 2,850 ± 50 ft/sec. feet per second (fps)]. The standard deviation of the corrected muzzle velocity at 70° ± 5° F shall not exceed 15 fps. This test shall be conducted in accordance with paragraph 4.5.6.

3.6.3.1 Velocity. (M107) [The average corrected muzzle velocity of the sample cartridges conditioned at -20°F shall not vary by more than 75 fps from the average corrected muzzle velocity of the sample cartridges conditioned at 165°F.]
</div></div>

Based on this, we are looking for a maximum slope of 0.405 fps./F if that is an absolute value or 0.378 if it is a percentage (70 fps. max, 2.6% of 2650 fps). We didn't hit that mark with the load I tested.

However, this is from that data from the Accurate manual that I posted earlier:

According to that, IMR3031 should be capable of meeting the requirement (maybe more so if its been modified). So, why is the temperature stability worse for my test?

Pretty sure I have good data this time, so I'm thinking it may be:
-CCI 250 is not as hot as 215M (i.e. lower pressure)
-my velocity is lower (i.e. lower pressure)
-a combination of the two

Unfortunately, I don't have any 215M primers or a newer 26" barrel...

Of course, "modified" could mean something as simple as changing the kernel length to get a better case fill. Maybe it isn't IMR3031, but something that is available OTC as a short cut powder.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/RS_imr8208_100209wo/index.html

"Currently loaded in premium factory sniper type ammunition"
</div></div>

IMR8208... "not exactly new"

 

[Grump]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[snip] For a factory BBL - and your mileage may vary,

45.0 Varget
Fed 210M
SMK 175
Black HIlls Winchester brass.

2710fps.

It chronoed EXACTLY the same as M118LR did on the same day, with the same rifle. [snip]
</div></div>
Call me too lazy to remember all the factory models' barrel lengths, but how many inches on yours???

Thanks!

 

[gliechty]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

I have no idea what powder it is. I "think" that it is 4064, with 3031 still deeply on the mind. The main reason that I think it is 4064 over 3031, is that on the first page Emilio stated:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just saw the data card for this round and the charge seems kind of light for this powder?
</div></div>

Of course that could apply to 3031 as well.

I think that the coatings/additive has more to do with the temperature stability, than the complete burn.

Look at what they are doing with RL17, and it gives an idea of what technology is available now.

I do love the detailed tests and information. Thanks guys.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Hodgdon lists 41.3 gr. giving 2653 fps. 59,100 PSI for 3031, which is probably more in line with what I'm getting. Actually, most of the factory data I obtained for that list of powders a few pages back showed higher charge weights needed to reach the reported velocity. Magnum primers will increase the velocity though.

I'm probably not going to do anything with this load for a while. I'd like to play the the 6mm Crusader some more and maybe run similar tests on my other loads. Hopefully, others will give it a go and maybe try some of the other powders from that list. To re-cap, these were:

Accurate 2015BR
Norma N201
Vihtavuori N530
Vihtavuori N133

The first two are worth looking at... I think I was told that 2015BR was based on IMR8208.

 

[dreever]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

I've noticed loading powders such as 3031, H322, or Benchmark that the recoil is noticeably less than with Varget, or RL15. Has anyone else notice this. Does this new load recoil less than the old RL15 load?

Danny

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Total recoil is a function of both velocity and propellant weight. Less powder, less total recoil. But then again, the "sharpness" of the recoil is partly a function of rise rate.

 

[dreever]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

I guess I should have said "Felt" recoil. I seem to feel Varget more so than the others mentioned.

Danny

 

[kombayotch]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Just for comparison, here is my 190 SMK RL-17 load with magnum and non-magnum primers. This was taken tonight. It too is running slower... I'm going to say barrel wear since the pressure is also lower. The CCI 250 performance is what I was getting with 210Ms at the same temperature about 4k rounds ago. Same slope on the temperature change too.

I'm sure RL-17 is more temperature stable at higher pressures. It isn't a great fit with 190s in the 308 Win. I believe it would be more stable with 210s.

IMR3031 needs to be re-checked in a newer barrel with 215 primers before we rule it out. Wouldn't hurt to use FC cases either.

 

[81STFACP]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Once my IR temp meter comes in I will continue the work with 3031

 

[marduk185]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

well fellas, went out yesterday to confirm my previous post about175smk over 41grains of 4064, only this time instead of prvi brass, which was somewhat suspect, i used m118lr brass with all else same. was getting avg 2638fps vs. the 2715fps from m118lr factory loads, which seems in line with grumpy's results. these from a savage 10fp 26" stock 1-10 twist barrel. oh and thanx to the ladies of sierra bullets factory outlet.

 

[Stonewall2]

IMR 8208XT

IMR 8208XT available real soon!
http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64926&page=5

This is the powder used in the M118LR loading from Federal .

Glenn

 

[JLM]

Re: IMR 8208XT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stonewall2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMR 8208XT available real soon!
http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64926&page=5

This is the powder used in the M118LR loading from Federal .

Glenn


</div></div>

According to whom?

 

[Grump]

Re: IMR 8208XT

Marduke: What's your barrel length? I'm running a 22-inch M1A and believe my loads could be going faster than they should--26-inch velocities in fact. However, I'm also getting zero confirmed data on M14-style velocities with any of the M118LR loads. Old 173-gr M118 data just doesn't apply.

 

[marduk185]

Re: IMR 8208XT

26 inch grump

 

[Stonewall2]

Re: IMR 8208XT

"According to whom?"

Read the posts on Br.com again .
http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64926&page=5

Loading data is at Hodgon site.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon%20Basic%20Manual.pdf

Stonewall

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stonewall2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"According to whom?"

Read the posts on Br.com again .
http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64926&page=5

Loading data is at Hodgon site.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon%20Basic%20Manual.pdf

Stonewall
</div></div>

I read the BRC.com posts, and got the "used in sniper rounds" from the press release, nowhere stating that it was the new M118LR powder.

I also perused the loading manual linked, and didn't find anything about 8208XT at all.

I do know they have 8208XT loading data on their website.

Please be more specific with your sources as to 8208XT being the propellant for Fed M118LR.

 

[gliechty]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

In the online Hodgdon manual, it lists 8028xbr as 42.5 2664 fps and 61,800 psi for a 308 win 175smk.

You have to go into the loading section and choose the specific cartridge, then scroll down to 175smk.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

I've thought about IMR8208, however, the link just says "sniper round", not LR118/MK316 explicitly. IMR8208 is made in Australia, so it could be used in another country's sniper round. Further, we have statements from two guys that know what it is:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Psywar1-0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I know what the powder is, but Im not sure I can say, dang NDA's and all that. But Its not exactly new, If you could find powder in stock you could order it from any of the usual suspects

Since I moved back to Indiana I lost my "Corporate Sponsorship" when it came to Mk262 and M118LR, After the June Atterbury F Class match I will be shooting my own loads that will mimic Mk316
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sorry, can't say. However, I can tell you that you COULD make this load if you knew the powder type... Again, wish I could say, but somebody would have to pay me a good living wage for the next 30 years...if they REALLY wanted to know.
</div></div>

These were posted at the peak of the component shortage. Both are saying "could", not "will soon be able to". To me, that implies that it was being sold prior to the shortage. None of the "usual suspects" had new or old IMR8208.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

could

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

LiteTac-I noted that its data was there on the online version, but not that it was anywhere on the referenced links as "the powder" in Fed's new M118LR offering.

I'm curious to check it out when it comes out, it looks promising for my 7-08.

 

[gliechty]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Just pointing it out. Dont think its the powder. Would be a great one though if it is all that its reported to be.

 

[Stonewall2]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Reading between the lines I believe that this is the powder used.

Now that my computer is O.K. again I will email a few people that should know something on the subject.

Any confirmed information that I find I will post it here.

An observation - H-1000 is being used in the new .300 Win Mag Match MK 248 MOD 1 .

I rather enjoyed the rest of the posts in this thread.
If nothing else a good time was had and some new stuff learned.



Glenn

 

[Grump]

Re: IMR 8208XT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">26 inch grump </div></div>So, ya think 2670 from a 22-inch is slow enough I don't need to worry? I'd expect a difference bigger than 30 fps with 4 inches of barrel out of the way.

Getting a full 2700 with 175s from an M14 type just can't be within specs.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: IMR 8208XT

Here is the Varget load re-tested for comparison:

Varget is far more temperature stable than RL-17 in my 190 SMK loads.

Summary:
175 SMK, 40.2 gr. IMR3031, CCI 250 > 59 fps change over 100 F

190 SMK, 45.0 gr. RL-17, CCI 250 > 80 fps change over 100 F
190 SMK, 45.0 gr. RL-17, 210M > 92 fps change over 100 F
190 SMK, 42.3 gr. Varget, CCI 250 > 14 fps change over 100 F
190 SMK, 42.3 gr. Varget, 210M > 15 fps change over 100 F

Not an apples-to-apples comparison to the 175 SMK load, but still interesting.

 

[Jicko]

Re: powder....

Anymore updates?

 

[Unsichtbar]

Re: powder....

Reported in the British magazine Target Shooter a article on Hodgen 8082 xbr powder “was being loaded in “sniper ammunition” also that its burning rate similar to 4895. I spoke with some people that work with Hogden and they said that it was being loaded in “some specialty ammunition by Black Hills”, could this be the 5.56 Mk 262 ammunition powder? If this is correct it might be a clue to the M118LR powder.

I have loaded RL15 for both .223 and .308 for years to simplify my reloading stock, so might it not follow that 8082 XBR might be chosen for the new M118LR and the Mk262 for its reported lack of temperature sensitivity?

Has anyone seen the powder kernels of 8082 XBR or have photos?

 

[Unsichtbar]

Re: powder....

Any Thoughts on 8082 XBR or has this been eliminated

 

[kombayotch]

Re: powder....

Read this post and then the comment after it. Keep in mind that 1SMALLJOHNSON was somehow involved in the development of this rounds and knows what the powder is.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...145#Post1389145

 

[Unsichtbar]

Re: powder....

I had read those but not sure if old stock 8082 would be eliminated by "could", like if you had some on hand, so many powders where out of stock. I was hoping that a photo of the kernels would rule it out or keep it in with the other tidbits if true about BH loading special ammo ( Mk 262???).

 

[sgtusmc_nc]

Re: powder....

I dont know if this will help but I pulled 2 of my m118 bullets today, the bullet weight was 175 and 174.8. the powder was right at 42 grains.

still no idea what the powder is but it was fine, and not spearical.

 

[Jicko]

Re: powder....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sgtusmc_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont know if this will help but I pulled 2 of my m118 bullets today, the bullet weight was 175 and 174.8. the powder was right at 42 grains.

still no idea what the powder is but it was fine, and not spearical. </div></div>

Are those the NEW M118LR (Mk 316 Mod x)??? Or just some old M118LR?

 

[criticalw88]

Re: powder....

Using 17 rounds of M118LR ammunition (Lot SMQ05L272-007 Sublot K), I averaged a velocity of 2670fps. Fired from a M1A 22" barrel 1:11 twist at 59.5 deg F, 54% RH, 29.76 inHg. I copied the cartridge with 41.8gr of H4895, 175gr Sierra MK, CCI BR2 primer and Lake City brass (M240 originally-fired)
I have heard the military's M118LR muzzle velocity is not taken exactly at the muzzle but much more than 10ft from the muzzle. Perhaps someone can comment on this possibility.

 

[Grump]

Re: powder....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: criticalw88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Using 17 rounds of M118LR ammunition (Lot SMQ05L272-007 Sublot K), I averaged a velocity of 2670fps. Fired from a M1A 22" barrel 1:11 twist at 59.5 deg F, 54% RH, 29.76 inHg. I copied the cartridge with 41.8gr of H4895, 175gr Sierra MK, CCI BR2 primer and Lake City brass (M240 originally-fired)
I have heard the military's M118LR muzzle velocity is not taken exactly at the muzzle but much more than 10ft from the muzzle. Perhaps someone can comment on this possibility. </div></div>
Military standard for velocity is at 78 feet (26 yards). It's an artifact from very old tube-based electronic measurements using electrical conductor screens, and might even have originated with the old rotating drum electro-mechanical systems.

Anyway, you're getting a full 100 fps more out of your M1A with M118LR than I got from a batch of FGMM 175s this past month. My firing temps were within 5 degrees of yours over three sessions, BTW.

 

[criticalw88]

Re: powder....

Thats good to know about the military's chrono distance. I took both the M118LR and my M118LR copy from the same distance of 10 ft. I have a 20" (11.25:1 ROT) LWRC REPR inbound and hope the shorter barrel wont hurt my MV too bad.

 

[Ishallbie O'Cullkillin]

Re: powder....

Loaded up some 175 SMK's over 40.2gr of 3031 today. Waiting for favorable conditions to shoot over Chrony. Test stick is Rem 700 VLS, 26".

 

[stater61]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: inode</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emilio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I loaded some up and they shoot great through my M40A1 clone. I have the data card and yes you can buy the powder over the counter, if you can find it. Hint, it the accuracy powder inthe Sierra load mannual from a few years back.

</div></div>

Viht N540 is what my Sierra manual states as "accuracy load". </div></div>

I just read this whole post and it seems the answer would be in the sierra loading manual. As stated above the accuracy load for...

3rd edition-IMR 4064 42.2 gr. @2500 fps. for 180 gr. bullet (doesn't show a 175).

5th edition- Viht N540 39.5 gr. @ 2400 fps 175 gr. bullet (probably too slow).

I don't have the 4th-edition but that seems like the likely suspect. Does anyone have that manual? Then again I may be all wet.
JH

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

US Armorment makes M118LR and spec the MV at 2,600 fps:

http://usarmorment.com/m118lr-762-175-gr-long-range-sniper-ammunition-100-rounds-p-1.html

Shot from the M24 (25" barrel), the M118LR MV should be 2,580 fps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M24_Sniper_Weapon_System

If you want to match the BDC of the MST-100 scope with an M40A3, the MV should be close to 2,600 fps. IIRC, 40.2 gr of IMR 3031 in a Lake City case under a 175SMK and COAL of 2.800" is close to 2,600 fps in my chamber at 70F, based on QuickLoad.

PS I was incorrect about the MST-100's BDC, it's 37.5 MOA at 1kyd instead of the 39.5 MOA I had read elsewhere. This means you need 2,660 fps at sea level (standard conditions) to match the BDC of the MST-100 instead of 2,600 fps.

When I get back to NV I will build some M118LR using IMR 3031 and chronograph it. It was -20F last night, so I gotta wait until it warms up a bunch!!

 

[pacomdiver]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

any luck on the 3031 loads? im gonna make some up and try them out of my 26" sps, so it should be 40fps faster so in the range of 2690 right?

 

[CoryT]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

The powder is IMR 4064, according to a guy at Federal who should know. Along with some changes to the case, this should rollover to GMM loads fairly soon.

 

[sinister]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

Federal used 4064 in 168 GMM for a number of years -- nothing new.

I'm still intrigued as to whether or not they're using 3031.

 

[Grump]

Re: powder....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AlcoholicusRex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Loaded up some 175 SMK's over 40.2gr of 3031 today. Waiting for favorable conditions to shoot over Chrony. Test stick is Rem 700 VLS, 26". </div></div>

And the results are?????

Hey, I spent one Christmas in Grant's Pass, and there *were* at least three days of favorable conditions...pausing for misting rain between firing strings.

If you're on the dry side, conditions should be even more favorable more often.

 

[3gunshooter]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

By any chance would you have any idea what type of powder FC was using in their 03 loads? I've pulled one, and it is 43.5 grains of no telling what. Looks like a cross between Varget,Reloader 15 and 4198. What ever it is, it's fast. 2,780FPS out of a 20" tube gas gun. The gun can handle it, as it has a David Tubb carrier weight and flat wound recoil spring. I have tried all three of those powders with the 175 SMK and can't get it up to anywhere near that fast. About 2,500 is it. Any idea on the powder for the LC-03 loads would be much appreciated.

 

[3gunshooter]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

You might be new to this forum, but I can tell you know your reloading discipline pretty well. I'm looking for anyone with information who might know what type of powder that FC used for their FC-03 M118LR loads. I've pulled one, and it is 43.5 grains of no telling what. Looks like a cross between Varget,Reloader 15 and 4895. What ever it is, it's fast. 2,780FPS out of a 20" tube gas gun. The gun can handle it, as it has a David Tubb carrier weight and flat wound recoil spring. I have tried all three of those powders with the 175 SMK and can't get it up to anywhere near that fast. About 2,500 is it. Any idea on the powder for the LC-03 loads would be much appreciated.

 

[Ishallbie O'Cullkillin]

Re: powder....

Actually, it has nothing to do with the weather. Favorable conditions for me means, when the bitching lulls to a dull roar, and the helpless accidentally remember how to wipe their own asses for a few minutes.
Just got back an hour ago. Here's what I know: 40.2gr IMR3031 fired from the afore mentioned Rem700 overcast, 53deg F, 83%RH, 28.63BP, alt 1210ft. 2555, 2559, 2588, 2563, 2586. The only five shots I fired, all grouped into .528" @ 100yds, including cold bore shot.
I am *%#*@ing ecstatic. Cant wait to try it in the Rock barreled AR10. Incidentally, I banged steel at 800 for the first time today. Walked the third shot in by driving the rifle to spot my own rounds. 18"x24" piece of steel, three hits of five. Much gratitude to The Hide!

 

[Grump]

Re: powder....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AlcoholicusRex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually, it has nothing to do with the weather. Favorable conditions for me means, when the bitching lulls to a dull roar, and the helpless accidentally remember how to wipe their own asses for a few minutes.</div></div>
Oh, I was thinking "environmental" as in "atmospheric". Total living conditions come into play.

Having had to deal sometimes with those who I call the "resource-less", I feel your pain. Glad conditions got favorable enough.

Nice group results, speed sounds a bit slow for that length barrel, but here precision (group size) and accuracy (good zero) rule.

 

[BHP9]

Re: New M118LR loading from Federal

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3GUNSHOOTER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By any chance would you have any idea what type of powder FC was using in their 03 loads? I've pulled one, and it is 43.5 grains of no telling what. Looks like a cross between Varget,Reloader 15 and 4198. What ever it is, it's fast. 2,780FPS out of a 20" tube gas gun. The gun can handle it, as it has a David Tubb carrier weight and flat wound recoil spring. I have tried all three of those powders with the 175 SMK and can't get it up to anywhere near that fast. About 2,500 is it. Any idea on the powder for the LC-03 loads would be much appreciated.

</div></div>

The powder use IS RL15.

The original load was higher which is one that I duplicate.

The current load is 43.1gr RL15 under the 175gr SMK.