I'm on the edge of my seat! This should be a great test. Anxious to hear what you find.
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New Winchester Staball 6.5 ball powder
- Thread starter padom
- Start date
I'm on the edge of my seat! This should be a great test. Anxious to hear what you find.
I have 130 Bergers loaded up in 6.5 Creed with ladder of 43.0-45.0 gr. Going to shoot them out of a 20" AR. Anxious to see what they do. I get 2790 in this gun with the 130 Bergers and 43.5gr of h4350.
Here’s what I got for the 6.5 creed
Peterson brass fed 210m primers 140 eld 2.82 coal .035 jump
All 5 shot strings from prone with rear bag. Ruger rpr factory 24 inch suppressed
Lab radar chrono
All of the groups were around 1/2 inch except 44 but I think I effed it up
42.5 avg 2616 sd 6.5 es13
43 2658 8.8 21
43.5 2722 20.4 50
44 2754 11 26
44.5 2827 8.7 21
Bottom row is the low charge nothing too scary
Peterson brass fed 210m primers 140 eld 2.82 coal .035 jump
All 5 shot strings from prone with rear bag. Ruger rpr factory 24 inch suppressed
Lab radar chrono
All of the groups were around 1/2 inch except 44 but I think I effed it up
42.5 avg 2616 sd 6.5 es13
43 2658 8.8 21
43.5 2722 20.4 50
44 2754 11 26
44.5 2827 8.7 21
Bottom row is the low charge nothing too scary
My weekend with staball
6.5 cred 147eldm br2 Hornadybrass
Needed 43.5 staball to match 42 of 4350, seems very dirty . Meters great.
44g of staball netted high 2800s no signs of pressure. 26 inches barrel
I'll keep my 4350
6.5 cred 147eldm br2 Hornadybrass
Needed 43.5 staball to match 42 of 4350, seems very dirty . Meters great.
44g of staball netted high 2800s no signs of pressure. 26 inches barrel
I'll keep my 4350
Just back from the range burning 6.5 Staball in 3 cartridges
22/250 55gr sierra SPBT 42.5grs average velocity 3885 FPS 26"cut rifled bbl Spectacular accuracy 3/8ths groups 100 yds 40.6 grs behind 60gr Sierra TMK again under 1/2 inch 5 shot groups average Velocity 3700 FPS. 220 Swift 1885 28" Octagon bbl,couldn't use Magnetto Chron . But 43grs of 6.5 Staball again produced under 1/2 inch groups with 55gr Speer TNT. 6mm Creedmoor 5/10ths below Max charge 42.8 pushing 115 DTACs locked up the bolt on my custom Rem 700 . I'll back that off a couple of grs and try again. All and all thumbs up for 6.5 Stay Ball
22/250 55gr sierra SPBT 42.5grs average velocity 3885 FPS 26"cut rifled bbl Spectacular accuracy 3/8ths groups 100 yds 40.6 grs behind 60gr Sierra TMK again under 1/2 inch 5 shot groups average Velocity 3700 FPS. 220 Swift 1885 28" Octagon bbl,couldn't use Magnetto Chron . But 43grs of 6.5 Staball again produced under 1/2 inch groups with 55gr Speer TNT. 6mm Creedmoor 5/10ths below Max charge 42.8 pushing 115 DTACs locked up the bolt on my custom Rem 700 . I'll back that off a couple of grs and try again. All and all thumbs up for 6.5 Stay Ball
There seems to be a pattern with powders that have de-coppering agents and being dirty. RL16, CFE223 are examples, and now Staball.
That’s an interesting observation. Is there any data to show that there is a real advantage to using the de-coppering agents? I ask due to not knowing if there is or isn’t. I have used the first two powders sparingly since I already get enough carbon in my brakes and can.
I’ve found out that carbon flakes down the barrel and into the chamber can change things from a pressure perspective right in the middle of a match. Didn’t like it.
I'm not sure. I stopped using RL16 due to excessive buildup in my suppressor, and a friend noticed severe buildup in his muzzle brake after about 200 rounds. And speaking to others that use CFE223 they said the same thing about being dirty.
Superformance is another dirty powder, but I'm not sure if it has any de-coppering agents in it.
Superformance is another dirty powder, but I'm not sure if it has any de-coppering agents in it.
I have some 6.5cm loaded up waiting to go for this weekend.
.2 incriments
42-46gr 140gr eld
42-44gr 147gr eld
44-46gr 121gr Lehigh match solids.
Along with a few 43gr RL16 and 4350 behind 140s for comparison.
It meters real nice on my progressive powder drop within .2 spread. Plus the whole numbers on the Mic adjustment lines up evenly with grains dropped. 1=42.0 2=43.0 etc. which is a first.
.2 incriments
42-46gr 140gr eld
42-44gr 147gr eld
44-46gr 121gr Lehigh match solids.
Along with a few 43gr RL16 and 4350 behind 140s for comparison.
It meters real nice on my progressive powder drop within .2 spread. Plus the whole numbers on the Mic adjustment lines up evenly with grains dropped. 1=42.0 2=43.0 etc. which is a first.
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Sure is nice crankin our 6.5 Creedmoore on the 650 . I hate spending all that time weighing each charge individually. I don’t have the time with kids etc... This powder is like the holy grail for someone like me. More time shooting less time in the reloading room.
This was my thoughts with Staball. While maybe dirty, cranking out 6.5cm loads on my XL650 throwing charges for my 6.5cm gasser sounds amazing! I already process 6.5cm brass on a dedicated 650 toolhead. De-prime, push shoulder back 0.0015" with Forster FL Sizing die, push shoulder back remaining .0015" with FL Trim die and squeeze neck down and trim with RT1500, run through 21st century TiN mandrel to set final neck tension. All with the pull of a handle.
Now if I can crank out loaded rounds with staball, awesome. If only the new bullet feeder I had coming would do 6.5 bullets. It only does 9mm, 45 and 223 right now. Now that would be FAST!
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That's what I'm hoping to do with my 6.5x47L....
Hoping to see more data as others get their test loads fired, but I'm thinking there will be some 8lb kegs of H4350 for sale in the not too distant future if this powder really does what it claims to do.
I gave staball a run in my wife’s 6 creed today. I’m a bit disappointmented. Now a little bit about this rifle, it’s a trued remmy with bart 22” m24 1-7.5 done by alamo in hurst texas and in my opinion has always been on the slow side compared to every velocity/charge weight I’ve ever read. I typically load 105 hybrids with 41.9 h4350 at 3050. (Keep in mind it’s my wife’s gun, it’s 15lbs and she is a new shooter so recoil in an issue) I did a ladder load from 41 to 43.7 all charges were dropped on an autotrickler fx120 (the autothrow was a nightmare, had to use a lee dipper) on lapua brass that’s 3x fired neck turned (cleaned up/evened out) that’s annealed every firing, sized with a redding non bushing die bumped .002 and mandrel expanded with a K&m -.002 mandrel and seated with a redding comp seater. The best es I had was 40!! although I only got to 2990fps and I had no pressure signs, this gun has never not shot a ragged hole with just about any load at 100y. I am a bit defeated. I bought an 8lb jug and was super stoked to be able to load on my progressive just like the rest of y’all are talking about. I Was really hoping to have at least a .3-.5gr node to be comfortable dropping and not trickling. I could use some advice from y’all, it doesn’t matter if it is/isn’t temp stable if I can’t get it to shoot. Also a disclaimer I cleaned cleaned the barrel last week but before the test today I shot 15 factory hornady 105’s through it, never cleaned a gun before with kroil/jb but the fellas at Alamo told/showed me how and said it would take a bit to shoot back in, I did my 6.5creed the same way and it hammered today from the cold bore until the last shot I fired I think I shot 70 through it so I don’t think that’s the issue.
I'm not telling you what to do at all, but I dont think you went high enough yet. Like stated in earlier post you need to have the case pretty full with ball powders to shoot good. If it was me and I had an 8lb jug of it, I'd at least try and run it to the velocity you had a good node with on 4350 or even a little higher since you had zero pressure signs. Like I said, just a suggestion. It may still not work.
I had 40 grains in my dasher so I know you’re most likely not where you need to be with your powder charge with a 6CM. Any particular reason why you decided to stop at 43.7? Sounds like you still have room to go up.
I'm glad someone else is thinking this way too. I'm all on board if I can reload 6.5 on my 650 in addition to processing the brass. If StaBall pans out I'm going to add the AMP mate to my Christmas-to-Myself list and have way more time to do the shooty things next year.
If you are on insta look up kcshooter he had great results from a harrel
I think I was a full grain above book value there. (Could be wrong)I will run it up a bit higher
IMR4451 as well.
It’s not like I have to clean the barrel or rifle any more than other powders with these.
Shot a ladder in a 20" 6.5 creed gas gun today. 130 Berger hybrids, hornady brass, fed 210's. 55 degrees outside.
5 shots of each of the following charges, measured by magneetospeed v3.
43.5 gr: 2646 fps, 23.1 SD
44.0 gr: 2637 fps, 28.5 SD (strange this went down in velocity)
44.5 gr: 2694 fps, 18.8 SD
45.0 gr: 2720 fps, 39.4 SD!!
(edit to address the SD's, these were charged with an RCBS 1500. so charges are accurate to the tenth of a grain.)
Not impressed so far, very high SD's. I had no pressure signs from any charge, so I can keep going up on the charge. Maybe I will hit a node with better SD and get the velocity up as I increase the charge. For reference, this same gun/bullet/brass/primer combo with 43.5 gr H4350 shoots 2790fps with a 7.3 SD.
Accuracy at 100 yards was fine, nothing great nothing awful. Worst group was probably 1.5", best was prob .8" (I didn't measure I am just estimating here).
But as others have said it is dirty as hell. By far the dirtiest powder I have ever used. I was shooting suppressed so that makes it worse, but it's in a league of it's own of any other powder I have shot. The difference between the cases shot with it and 4350 is a massive difference.
I'm no expert, those charges were safe in my gun, they may not be in yours, start low and work up. These are just my results from shooting my first ladder with staball.
5 shots of each of the following charges, measured by magneetospeed v3.
43.5 gr: 2646 fps, 23.1 SD
44.0 gr: 2637 fps, 28.5 SD (strange this went down in velocity)
44.5 gr: 2694 fps, 18.8 SD
45.0 gr: 2720 fps, 39.4 SD!!
(edit to address the SD's, these were charged with an RCBS 1500. so charges are accurate to the tenth of a grain.)
Not impressed so far, very high SD's. I had no pressure signs from any charge, so I can keep going up on the charge. Maybe I will hit a node with better SD and get the velocity up as I increase the charge. For reference, this same gun/bullet/brass/primer combo with 43.5 gr H4350 shoots 2790fps with a 7.3 SD.
Accuracy at 100 yards was fine, nothing great nothing awful. Worst group was probably 1.5", best was prob .8" (I didn't measure I am just estimating here).
But as others have said it is dirty as hell. By far the dirtiest powder I have ever used. I was shooting suppressed so that makes it worse, but it's in a league of it's own of any other powder I have shot. The difference between the cases shot with it and 4350 is a massive difference.
I'm no expert, those charges were safe in my gun, they may not be in yours, start low and work up. These are just my results from shooting my first ladder with staball.
I think you’re in the same boat as I am, heavier charges and more case fill is what I’m going to try to even out my loads
Yea, after my very premature and short testing, it's looking like the only benefit is metering. And if I can get the speed up and SD down, that's a pretty big deal. But I'm not holding my breath right now. I had high expectations due to the claims from Winchester, but my first ladder severely tempered those.
On a side note, did Hodgdon lower the H4350 numbers in their online reloading database when staball was released? I don't remember what their numbers were before but I really think they lowered them to make Staball look better. After Staball was released, the current max charge listed on their online load data for a 130 gr bullet in 6.5 Creedmoor with H4350 is 39.2 gr which is laughably low.
Hodgdon Official Reloading Database
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I think you’re right, usually hornady book is below the Hodgdon website and they are listing 42.8. Which seems more accurate. I load 42.4 in my 140 loads for my creed and 41.6 for my 147s. Why would they do that? Are they trying to push the staball? Or? It doesn’t make sense, they stand to make money no matter what powder they sell am I right?
Also they list the FPS at 2687? Why the fuck would you want to run a 130 that slow. Isn’t that Grendel numbers with a 130?
Also I looked up 140’s on the site with h4350, they now say max with a 140amax at 2.82, is 40.6 and it’s a compressed load. Something is wrong with the site
Book (grains) is more like a guideline. If you had a way to measure pressure you would see that it takes a different amount of grains to achieve the same pressure as book with your rifle and loads. That's why it's a good idea to load up to find "your" MAX. And make sure you're jamming the lands in doing so.
Jamming in the lands will result in a different max than when using an OAL 50 thou off the lands. Jamming in the lands may result in premature blown primers.
I’ve never felt the need to jam into the lands during load development. I’ve read about it and get why some may choose to do so, but don’t feel that there’s any advantage in doing so.
The only advantage is more information. You know max at 0. For either safety, god forbid you accidentally seat long. Or if in the future you want to mess with seating depth, you know max. Where as if you start off the lands and work closer you run the risk of overpressure.
I would advise a new reloader to start at jam so they know their overarching max but I also suggest they don’t actually load hot enough charges to get into the real pressure issues. However it provides confidence that powder level won’t blow it up.
Myself, I start at .010 off for the initial round and then seat deeper later. It’s just the process I’ve adopted and I’m comfortable with it.
Myself, I start at .010 off for the initial round and then seat deeper later. It’s just the process I’ve adopted and I’m comfortable with it.
but you never know what max actually is unless your running pressure trace equipment....as you know most ppl(myself included)go by pressure signs...flat primers..swipe marks..ejector marks..bolt lift ECT but by the time you get those signs your most likely over pressure.
lol
My first experience with pressure ruined cases and stuck bolts.
I learn a lot from that stupidity
So far it seems stabil is not a miracle powder but not terrible.
It does sound like it will be what some are looking for though. If it meters well in a powder thrower, that is an advantage over typical extruded powders in my book. I haven’t tried it nor do I have a need for it right now, but it’s good to know it’s available if I do find a need.
I agree but I’m not giving up on it yet. At the very least I bet I can make some excellent 223 gas gun loads from it
Doubtful you will be able to use it for 223 gas guns. It has a burn speed near 4350 / Win. 760. Way too slow for 223.
7mm-08 Ackley
FC 12 brass
162gr ELD-M
2.9 COAL
Staball
45°
107yards to target
49.6
2889
2886
2875
2881
2887
Average 2882
SD 5
49.8
2871
2885
2896
2887
2909
Average 2889
SD 13
50.0
2882
2905
2904
2906
2907
Average 2901
SD 9.45
Accuracy was ok. See pictures below. The middle load was weird. Had hard bolt lifts, worse groups and higher SD. On that last group, I pulled that one to the left. I was getting nervous. I feel like it would've been under or a round 1 MOA
FC 12 brass
162gr ELD-M
2.9 COAL
Staball
45°
107yards to target
49.6
2889
2886
2875
2881
2887
Average 2882
SD 5
49.8
2871
2885
2896
2887
2909
Average 2889
SD 13
50.0
2882
2905
2904
2906
2907
Average 2901
SD 9.45
Accuracy was ok. See pictures below. The middle load was weird. Had hard bolt lifts, worse groups and higher SD. On that last group, I pulled that one to the left. I was getting nervous. I feel like it would've been under or a round 1 MOA
Attachments
I was under the impression it was faster than 4350. Like in between that and varget
That's crazy velocity. I wonder if this is worth a swing with the 7mm SAW. I run my current load using a 160TMK with 46.0gr of RL16 and see 2840fps. I saw a peak of 2865fps with 46.4gr of RL16 and a 162 ELD-M right before hitting pressure, and ran some 2000MR with the 175gr Berger and saw up to 2882fps but it was more inconsistent than my ex-fiance's mental state.
This matches my experience as well, but with that said you can cram more staball into your brass than 4350 or Rl16 and exceed both in overall velocities.
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