New Winchester Staball 6.5 ball powder

[Conrad]

How were these loads weighed/dispsened??

If weighed what type of scale and was it protected from drafts or drifting?

If thrown, was the measure tested for consistency?

Is this even a good powder for 308....from what I've read it falls somewhere on the slower side of H4350.

Skunkworx's Dasher work up progressed up normally, and that seems like a more applicable case. Additionally 29 grs fills to the N/S junction on LC 223 brass, and given suspected burn rate, that tells you right there you'll be loading well over listed max to achieve velocity in 223.

I've got some loaded up in .223 and eventually 6xc, but not sure when I'll get a chance to shoot right now. If it proves up it will be a great high volume practice round powder to throw, but I'd still weigh out stick powder for competitions.

Well damn that's all over the place.

 

[RogueTanker]

How were these loads weighed/dispsened??

If weighed what type of scale and was it protected from drafts or drifting?

If thrown, was the measure tested for consistency?

Is this even a good powder for 308....from what I've read it falls somewhere on the slower side of H4350.

Skunkworx's Dasher work up progressed up normally, and that seems like a more applicable case. Additionally 29 grs fills to the N/S junction on LC 223 brass, and given suspected burn rate, that tells you right there you'll be loading well over listed max to achieve velocity in 223.

I've got some loaded up in .223 and eventually 6xc, but not sure when I'll get a chance to shoot right now. If it proves up it will be a great high volume practice round powder to throw, but I'd still weigh out stick powder for competitions.

Same dispenser as for my 243. 100 and 200 yard groups. And Same dispenser that gives me a more typical ladder with basically ever other caliber.

It's not the dispenser.

 

[jzerfoss]

I'm surprised people aren't trying legitimate temp stability tests on this powder considering the main selling point is temp stable ball powder. There are plenty of speed demon powders that are accurate with rl17, h100v, pp2000mr, etc. I'm curious to see if they got one to actually be stable.

 

[longgunJR]

I’m tagging along this thread since we haven’t had varget for months this could be a great alternative.

 

[BaronVonAaron]

I’m tagging along this thread since we haven’t had varget for months this could be a great alternative.

At least for now, I am sticking with Varget. The ball powder part of staball really interests me though.

 

[Rob01]

I’m tagging along this thread since we haven’t had varget for months this could be a great alternative.

StaBall wouldn't be a good alternative to Varget. It's slower burning in the H4350 rate. If you are looking for something similar to Varget check out IMR 4166. One of the enduron powders so more temp stable and in a similar burn rate.

 

[Skunkworx]

 

[918v]

Lol

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Not scientific but probably indicative of what users can expect. It looks like Stab-Ball will be good for a ball powder but not a replacement for similar burn rate extruded powders.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Still more interested in performance over temp stability. Doesn't matter how stable it is if it's a finicky loader and shoots like shit.

Hoping to have some numbers next weekend.

 

[kindabitey]

If the velocity change with the increase in temp is consistent, I don't care if it goes up.

 

[Milo 2.5]

It was 85* for 2 hours. No need to be melodramatic. Unless you have to be for your point to be valid.

Was it Oscar worthy? I didn't single anything you said out, or anyone, just made a statement if a test is to be made, test in 90 deg, test in 60 deg, test in 30 deg, test at 0 deg. Make things equal, make the test a test.
How many friggin tests between IMR 4451 and H4350 have we seen, never 2 results the same. I guess here it goes, I do not give a shit how 45 deg ammo shoots on an 80 deg day.

 

[Milo 2.5]

But the problem with that is most people are testing using your method of ambient air temperature to acclimatize your ammo and gun is that they do it on different days. Which means that they are more than likely using ammo loaded at different times and shot on different round counts; introducing a whole another set of variables. Do you really think the barrel temperature matters after the first round? Have you tested that to prove it does?

If you are going to go that far with barrel temp, chamber temp warms considerably five shots in too, brass itself changes temps quickly. But to be honest, I do not run many tests concerning stability. I stumble on most by accident, but I can assure you most of the time with 1 rifle, all components and methods loading are the same, so no reason for suspect, even if the ammo was loaded on different days. As for rd count on a barrel, I shot a 6.5x47 barrel, from rd # 40 to rd # 3900, every time I chrono'd it, hot, warm, cold, 2820fps, give or take ES or SD numbers, so in my head, again, not a factor. Don't let crap build up in your bore and keep velocities constant, I am sure we have all upped our speeds on loads feeling no need to clean.
I am not a big temp stability worshiper, If I am .1-.2 low or high on a given day, that aspect usually translates to linear across the coarse. I shot my oldest dasher today, 35 deg, still 2.3 up at 500, still 6.8 at 1K, just like in 85deg weather, RL 16, easy win. Did I chrono it today, I saw no reason too. I shoot a lot of Win 748 in 223 rds, it sucks when cold, fire 2 shots, adjust, have fun.
In retrospect, expressing my disdain for guys running tests and puffing chests on the web, maybe I was wrong. I feel it is up to each of us to decide what is going to work on our end. No different than your 6.5 SST thread, am I interested, damn right I am, am I going to go that route based on your findings, well, no, but I am researching the same elsewhere. So basically I am contradicting myself some, where info is actually GOOD, but I am still not trusting one person. Especially a temp stability test, partially because I do not care, but IMO, most methods flawed, once again, my opinion.
The only useful info I have seen in this thread came from skunkworks, and what I take from that is, it is going to take more of this powder to equal existing loads with a distinct possibility of compressing a ball powder.

 

[AdamPini]

Has anyone tried Staball with 6BR yet?

 

[padom]

Has anyone tried Staball with 6BR yet?

I'm about to. Mine just arrived today.

Will have some numbers up tonight throwing 25 charges from my XL650

 

[ChristianSilver]

Looking forward to your findings...

 

[AdamPini]

I'm about to. Mine just arrived today.

Will have some numbers up tonight throwing 25 charges from my XL650

Hoping to get speed close to Varget. But who knows.

 

[padom]

Hoping to get speed close to Varget. But who knows.

Well I have some really solid 6BR data with Varget and H4895 over the Labradar the last week with 105 Hybrids and 95 TMK. So we shall see.

out of my 28" Kreiger 6BR .113 Freebore I get

105 Hybrid over 30gr Varget 2844 SD 7 over 25rd
95 TMK over 31.2gr Varget 3020fps SD 6.8 over 25rd
105 Hybrid over 29.3gr H4895 2846 SD 7 over 25rd

 

[padom]

Alright I just threw 50 charges on my XL650 powder thrower into a 223rem case. Here are the results. I threw 10 charges to get it leveled out then threw these first 25...I usually like to throw 25-30 charges before actually loading cases to level out the charge weights to get accurate throws. So this first 25 I dont count but still good numbers.

#	Grains
1	24.42
2	24.42
3	24.36
4	24.38
5	24.38
6	24.44
7	24.32
8	24.40
9	24.32
10	24.38
11	24.32
12	24.34
13	24.32
14	24.42
15	24.30
16	24.42
17	24.38
18	24.34
19	24.46
20	24.36
21	24.44
22	24.42
23	24.44
24	24.40
25	24.36
ES	0.16
SD	0.045
AVG	24.3816

Here's the actual 25 charges I would load.

#	Grains
26	24.34
27	24.34
28	24.34
29	24.36
30	24.40
31	24.38
32	24.40
33	24.44
34	24.36
35	24.38
36	24.44
37	24.44
38	24.40
39	24.44
40	24.40
41	24.40
42	24.42
43	24.36
44	24.36
45	24.38
46	24.38
47	24.40
48	24.42
49	24.36
50	24.38
ES	0.10
SD	0.032
AVG	24.3888

 

[ChristianSilver]

Hell ya... Meters damn good...
Now if it shoots that good... ??

 

[Sheldon N]

That's really good metering accuracy. Thanks for doing that.

 

[padom]

My powder hopper, powder die, powder bar is all polished to a mirror finish and I have the Uniquetek powder bar micrometer and powder baffle installed. Not sure how much that is lending to accuracy vs a bone stock powder thrower....

 

[Cowcatcher]

My powder hopper, powder die, powder bar is all polished to a mirror finish and I have the Uniquetek powder bar micrometer and powder baffle installed. Not sure how much that is lending to accuracy vs a bone stock powder thrower....

Well now we need someone to test it with a bone stock version it seems.

 

[padom]

An interesting way to look at your results is not in the extreme spread of high to low charges as a pure number. As in the higher the number, the worse it is. But as in how your SD of charge weights fall into your node window. Once you get a good load optimized and identify what your node is you can see how well those results fall inside that margin. I would think if the powder shoots well you should have a .6 to 1 gr window. The difference of 29.84 and 29.76 would be safely inside your node.

This is why I'm always stressing to people proper load workup. Those small variations wont matter down range if your in the center of the node. Not in a node and those variations will have you all over the place..

 

[Skyking]

Got my 6mm GT. Loaded Hornady brass Barnes 112's cci br2 and varget, h4350, and staball.

33.4 varget 2915 sd 6 in 5 shots
36.6 h4350 2932 sd 5
Staball
37 2769 sd of 6
37.5 2781 sd 21
38.5 2830 sd 24
39 2885 sd 25
39.5 2965 sd 6

Non pressure signs on any load. The 39.5 load had some more kick to it. I did have one round not go off with Staball. I will get some rounds down the barrel and try again. But I am liking h4350 the best so far

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

How does it compare to book?

 

[jzerfoss]

Got my 6mm GT. Loaded Hornady brass Barnes 112's cci br2 and varget, h4350, and staball.

33.4 varget 2915 sd 6 in 5 shots
36.6 h4350 2932 sd 5
Staball
37 2769 sd of 6
37.5 2781 sd 21
38.5 2830 sd 24
39 2885 sd 25
39.5 2965 sd 6

Non pressure signs on any load. The 39.5 load had some more kick to it. I did have one round not go off with Staball. I will get some rounds down the barrel and try again. But I am liking h4350 the best so far

From most of the people that have posted results there seems to be a trend of normal jumps in velocity, very large jumps in velocity, and very little to no flat spots. Doesn't seem like it has wide velocity nodes like most extruded powders. Will be interesting to see if that's the norm.

 

[Iron Worker]

A shooter on Long Range Only forum posted the powder is very dirty ?

 

[ToddKS]

Well now we need someone to test it with a bone stock version it seems.

It is pretty well accepted that polishing is needed to get the best results from a Dillon powder measure. Polishing the inside of the metal bowl is particularly important.

 

[Cowcatcher]

It is pretty well accepted that polishing is needed to get the best results from a Dillon powder measure. Polishing the inside of the metal bowl is particularly important.

I can see where that would help. It's definitely a case where friction isn't wanted. I'm not doubting you in any way but do you have any links to it where I can read up on it? I may have to slick all of mine up if I can find some numbers to persuade me.

 

[ToddKS]

I can see where that would help. It's definitely a case where friction isn't wanted. I'm not doubting you in any way but do you have any links to it where I can read up on it? I may have to slick all of mine up if I can find some numbers to persuade me.

Google "Dillon Powder Measure Polishing". There are posts from other forums, videos, etc.

 

[padom]

I can see where that would help. It's definitely a case where friction isn't wanted. I'm not doubting you in any way but do you have any links to it where I can read up on it? I may have to slick all of mine up if I can find some numbers to persuade me.

Yep I did a full review on here 2yrs ago with pictures and info. I'll have to see if I can find it

 

[Cowcatcher]

Google "Dillon Powder Measure Polishing". There are posts from other forums, videos, etc.

Learn something every day.

Yep I didna full review on here 2yrs ago with pictures and info. I'll have to see if I can find it

Sounds good. Thanks

 

[B-P-UU]

From most of the people that have posted results there seems to be a trend of normal jumps in velocity, very large jumps in velocity, and very little to no flat spots. Doesn't seem like it has wide velocity nodes like most extruded powders. Will be interesting to see if that's the norm.

I noticed that as well... half grain increments yielding 50-60 fps deltas in velocity.

 

[MarinePMI]

This is why I'm always stressing to people proper load workup. Those small variations wont matter down range if your in the center of the node. Not in a node and those variations will have you all over the place..

An interesting way to look at your results is not in the extreme spread of high to low charges as a pure number. As in the higher the number, the worse it is. But as in how your SD of charge weights fall into your node window. Once you get a good load optimized and identify what your node is you can see how well those results fall inside that margin. I would think if the powder shoots well you should have a .6 to 1 gr window. The difference of 29.84 and 29.76 would be safely inside your node.

Both of your comments bear repeating. I think folks forget that the nodes are what help determine a powder's suitability for a case, not necessarily temp sensitivity and velocity, or even ES/SD. It is a pretty accepted fact that ball powders are more sensitive to charge weight variance (and extruded powders tend to be more tolerant). Also, that extruded powders tend to give smoother and more consistent pressure curves over their double base ball powder cousins. Ball powders tend to meter more accurately, but are more sensitive to variance, extruded tend to meter less accurately, but tend to show less effects of that larger variance. All that being said, one powder may be "less accurate" than another, but have a wider accuracy node for a specific cartridge; and that is what drives (or should drive) powder selection. Velocity doesn't equal velocity, nor does ES always equate to accuracy down range.

There's a reason OCW came into being, but I'm preaching to the choir here, and so just reiterating it for others.

 

[clcustom1911]

Yep, my experiences exactly. Ball powders are finicky. I've been playing with WC857 which is akin to Ramshot Magnum based on my experiences. Finding a "node" takes more time because in my 7mm RemMag I had to do 0.2g steps in my testing and the node is basically 0.1g in either direction. The good part is my powder measure drops to within 0.1 and life is good.

Both of your comments bear repeating. I think folks forget that the nodes are what help determine a powder's suitability for a case, not necessarily temp sensitivity and velocity, or even ES/SD. It is a pretty accepted fact that ball powders are more sensitive to charge weight variance (and extruded powders tend to be more tolerant). Also, that extruded powders tend to give smoother and more consistent pressure curves over their double base ball powder cousins. Ball powders tend to meter more accurately, but are more sensitive to variance, extruded tend to meter less accurately, but tend to show less effects of that larger variance. All that being said, one powder may be "less accurate" than another, but have a wider accuracy node for a specific cartridge; and that is what drives (or should drive) powder selection. Velocity doesn't equal velocity, nor does ES always equate to accuracy down range.

There's a reason OCW came into being, but I'm preaching to the choir here, and so just reiterating it for others.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Ideally

Yep, my experiences exactly. Ball powders are finicky. I've been playing with WC857 which is akin to Ramshot Magnum based on my experiences. Finding a "node" takes more time because in my 7mm RemMag I had to do 0.2g steps in my testing and the node is basically 0.1g in either direction. The good part is my powder measure drops to within 0.1 and life is good.

What powder measure are you using?

 

[clcustom1911]

Ideally


What powder measure are you using?

Lee perfect powder measure.

 

[RogueTanker]

Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.

7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m

49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark

Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.

 

[clcustom1911]

Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.

7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m

49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark

Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.

As long as that node stays stable, that's a wide node for a ball powder. I'd make 10 each of 49.6, 49.8, and 50 and see what the numbers say.

 

[RogueTanker]

As long as that node stays stable, that's a wide node for a ball powder. I'd make 10 each of 49.6, 49.8, and 50 and see what the numbers say.

Yeah, I'm definitely exploring that node extensively. I'm hoping that it is accurate as it is fast.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

If that's the case it better be temp stable. Won't take much to get in trouble.

 

[RogueTanker]

If that's the case it better be temp stable. Won't take much to get in trouble.

Yeah that's definitely true.

 

[B-P-UU]

Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.

7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m

49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark

Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.

Wow.. that's .280 AI speed with 10-12 grains less powder.

 

[RogueTanker]

Wow.. that's .280 AI speed with 10-12 grains less powder.

Yup, that's low to mid 280 AI speed.

 

[Baer45]

Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.

7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m

49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark

Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.

How does that compare to your current favorite load?

 

[RogueTanker]

How does that compare to your current favorite load?

41.2 gr XBR runs me 2800 so 100fps faster.

 

[Baer45]

Staball is not temperature stable. I ran a test in the 25 creedmoore using Peterson SRP brass, 131g blackjack bullets and both cci 400 and 450 primers through a 28” Bartlein suppressed.
I will choose one specific loading to present however this pattern marched out throughout the testing of an entire ladder test
On day one the temperature was 61 F.
Staball 44.6g 3029 fps with SD 9 (3 shots) cci 450
Day two the temperature was 41 F.
Staball 44.6g 3006 fps with SD 8 (5 shots) cci 450
Staball 44.6g 3004 fps with SD 10 (3 shots) cci 400
that is a 1.2 FPS difference per degree F

Were all loads, loaded at the same time? Humidity alone can cause that variance if loaded separate days...

 

[Baer45]

How were these loads weighed/dispsened??

If weighed what type of scale and was it protected from drafts or drifting?

If thrown, was the measure tested for consistency?

Is this even a good powder for 308....from what I've read it falls somewhere on the slower side of H4350.

Skunkworx's Dasher work up progressed up normally, and that seems like a more applicable case. Additionally 29 grs fills to the N/S junction on LC 223 brass, and given suspected burn rate, that tells you right there you'll be loading well over listed max to achieve velocity in 223.

I've got some loaded up in .223 and eventually 6xc, but not sure when I'll get a chance to shoot right now. If it proves up it will be a great high volume practice round powder to throw, but I'd still weigh out stick powder for competitions.

I would love to know how your 6XC loads work! That was one of the first calibers I will try....

 

[Brettmparker1]

6.5C 140 eld loaded 2.82 coal Peterson brass charge 42.5 to 44.5 in .5 increments case fill at 44.5 was near 100 percent with the bullet seated I will shoot them hopefully tomorrow and report back