Newbie Asks: Why do you say the Production (Rifle) Division is a Joke?

[CaseFinder]

Production division as it sits is an absolute joke. Anyone that doesn’t think so has a vested interest or just not being realistic. Reason being top guys are essentially shooting budget customs and your new guys with a Ruger RPR or Tikka Tac A1 etc can’t compete.

You take 2 new guys of equal skill.
Shooter A) with a GAP PPR or MPA prod rifle in 6 Dasher
Shooter B) RPR in 6.5 creed

I know who wins that based on a better rifle with a better chassis and better cartridge.

I have a CDG action in 6.5 Creed and I have a Matrix Pro chassis. If I bolt them together that’s their advertised Prod class gun, but mine isn’t prod class because what? They didn’t chamber my barrel?
I shoot that config in open class. It’s a full blown custom.

And where do we pick these arbitrary ass numbers of $3k for rifle and $2.5k for scope? Makes no sense. An ATX is more a production than the GAP PPR, but because it costs more it doesn’t count?

The new PRS AUS rules are a good start to a new Prod class. View attachment 8344506View attachment 8344508

I’m all for innovation and I do like what certain manufacturers are brining to the table within the class rules. And trust me I get it, play the game until the rules change. But the rules needed to be changed a long time ago.

Agree with you, Will. A real fix, albeit fantasy at this point, to level the playing field equipment-wise, would be a collaborative group of manufacturer(s) coming out with a number of identical rifles, identically mounted scopes, same exact ammo etc. with new competitors only being able to compete against others using the exact same equipment and ammo. Perhaps a manufacturer incentive scheme to allow participating competitors using the demo rigs/rifles to be able to purchase the units at a discounted price to promote their brand. Then you could have more people coming into the NRLH/PRS game with a newbie competitor production class like a Remington division, a Savage division, a Bergara, Howa, Tikka division, etc., and so on. The unpurchased competiton rifles could/would become demos for subsequent production class matches or auctioned off with proceeds to the manufacturer to cover base costs and any auction money base cost overages to go to charities. Pro shooters would not be able to compete in this class given their rankings and newbie competitors would be on a more even playing field. Pro shooters would most likely not even be interested in these demo rigs save for selling it off for cash/trade if they somehow were allowed in, competed, and won the division. Again, just a suggestion.

 

[Ronws]

Agree with you, Will. A real fix, albeit fantasy at this point, to level the playing field equipment-wise, would be a collaborative group of manufacturer(s) coming out with a number of identical rifles, identically mounted scopes, same exact ammo etc. with new competitors only being able to compete against others using the exact same equipment and ammo. Perhaps a manufacturer incentive scheme to allow participating competitors using the demo rigs/rifles to be able to purchase the units at a discounted price to promote their brand. Then you could have more people coming into the NRLH/PRS game with a newbie competitor production class like a Remington division, a Savage division, a Bergara, Howa, Tikka division, etc., and so on. The unpurchased competiton rifles could/would become demos for subsequent production class matches or auctioned off with proceeds to the manufacturer to cover base costs and any auction money base cost overages to go to charities. Pro shooters would not be able to compete in this class given their rankings and newbie competitors would be on a more even playing field. Pro shooters would most likely not even be interested in these demo rigs save for selling it off for cash/trafe if they somehow were allowed in, competed, and won the division. Again, just a suggestion.

And I don't know if I would like that. It reminds me of NASCAR requiring restrictor plates and car profiles. Trying to make all cars the same, which means that you end up with more collisions.

Being a good shooter also means choosing good pieces. If you are limited in what you may choose, this takes away being a smart shooter choosing the right stuff.

Every time we come up with more rules, it just makes for a bigger SNAFU.

 

[CaseFinder]

And I don't know if I would like that. It reminds me of NASCAR requiring restrictor plates and car profiles. Trying to make all cars the same, which means that you end up with more collisions.

Being a good shooter also means choosing good pieces. If you are limited in what you may choose, this takes away being a smart shooter choosing the right stuff.

Every time we come up with more rules, it just makes for a bigger SNAFU.

Agree, hence why I only suggest for a newbie competitor production class division, not for any other class. The point of all this is to drive interest in the sport without taking away from anything else already in place.

 

[lash]

Agree, hence why I only suggest for a newbie competitor production class division, not for any other class. The point of all this is to drive interest in the sport without taking away from anything already in place.

But…but, it’s a joke, don’t you know?

 

[308pirate]

The common criticism of the Production division in PRS is that the rifles being used (and allowed under the rules) are not what most people would consider a "production" rifle.

There isn't a single "production" or "stock" division in any shooting sport that limits you to what most people consider a "production" firearm.

Likewise about 95% of the pistols in either USPSA or IDPA Carry Optics divisions are nothing that most people would consider "carry" guns.

They're just names given to an arbitrary set of characteristics used to group firearms. Arguing or complaining about it is stupid

Who fucking cares?

 

[CaseFinder]

There isn't a single "production" or "stock" division in any shooting sport that limits you to what most people consider a "production" firearm.

Likewise about 95% of the pistols in either USPSA or IDPA Carry Optics divisions are nothing that most people would consider "carry" guns.

They're just names given to an arbitrary set of characteristics used to group firearms. Arguing or complaining about it is stupid

Who fucking cares?

Agree with you. Ask an average Joe who a top PRS shooter is; he'll shrug his shoulders and shake his head. Ask an average Joe who a top USPSA or IDPA shooter is; he'll do the same. There is no arguing or complaining; just brainstorming on how to increase interest in the sport and why some think certain classes are a joke. Like Frank said, the sport won't grow itself without helpful input from its stakeholders.

 

[Ronws]

But…but, it’s a joke, don’t you know?

like eating at the kiddie's table. But I do get that it would be like an introductory division.

In 1977, I started learning Kenpo Karate from my scoutmaster, who was a 5th degree black belt in that style. There were no kiddie divisions. Everyone practiced with everyone.

Same in 1988 when I was taking classes in Tae Kwon do and a few other styles. I sparred with white belts and a guy who had a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and one in Judo. Learning was to be had, regardless of who I sparred with.

So, I guess we will see. I just think it is best to jump right in, unless we are simply talking about costs. If competitors want to make it so that you can only enter if you spent 8k on the rig, step right up and say that and be bold about it. Just like a motorcycle club I knew about. You had to be a millionaire to join. Right there in the bylaws. Of course, I could not join. But I thought about joining a group called the Retreads. You had to be over 40 and I was more than qualified for that.

 

[iceng]

I think everyone here is on the same page, however we are all autistic-alpha-males who wont conceed and say it out loud.

Aussie "production" is a joke. You can rebarrel a rifle, with a gunsmith fit and chambered tube, and still be in prod, providing it is the same contour and cartridge and twist rate. So rebarrel a RPR or tikka tacA1 and thats fine. Or screwing on a proof prefit into an AI is also legit.

Having new-shooter-Joe attend and bring his ruger in full factory trim, simply can not compete. Not on skill, or gear.

A new shooter needs to learn stage craft, prep, timing, what gear to use, etc.. a seasoned shooter had enough advantage over a new guy.

This is the exact issue, for me:

A new shooter joins a match, with a production rifle and gear, believing they have a chance to at least compete on a level playing field, minus experience. THEY DON'T.

I dont know how to fix that. It doesnt advantage seasoned shooters, it disadvantages new ones.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

There isn't a single "production" or "stock" division in any shooting sport that limits you to what most people consider a "production" firearm.

Likewise about 95% of the pistols in either USPSA or IDPA Carry Optics divisions are nothing that most people would consider "carry" guns.

They're just names given to an arbitrary set of characteristics used to group firearms. Arguing or complaining about it is stupid

Who fucking cares?

I have pretty much zero knowledge of classes in USPSA and other pistol formats. So, serious question......are there any classes that would keep you from winning the overall at a match?

Or are there relatively frequent times when someone not running whatever the super race gun open class is......winning? Not like once in a blue moon, but frequently enough that you would say the class doesn't limit the shooter's ability to win.....skill level being equal?

 

[lash]

A new shooter joins a match, with a production rifle and gear, believing they have a chance to at least compete on a level playing field, minus experience. THEY DON'T.

Agree with most everything you said, except this point. I’ll continue the comparison to other shooting games, including archery. Anyone entering a competition as a first timer with just basic equipment that has an expectation of a chance to win is fooling themselves.

It’s not a reasonable expectation nor should it be.

 

[Emerson0311]

Agree with most everything you said, except this point. I’ll continue the comparison to other shooting games, including archery. Anyone entering a competition as a first timer with just basic equipment that has an expectation of a chance to win is fooling themselves.

It’s not a reasonable expectation nor should it be.

The only thing that matters long term is whether or not there will continue to be enough shooters to run these matches. My guess is that most shooters time out from spending so much to lose by dozens of places. Basically they can spend $$$ and go to the olympics. A few times maybe, but the patina wears thin and new orgs spring up to service the masses.

 

[Rob01]

The only thing that matters long term is whether or not there will continue to be enough shooters to run these matches. My guess is that most shooters time out from spending so much to lose by dozens of places. Basically they can spend $$$ and go to the olympics. A few times maybe, but the patina wears thin and new orgs spring up to service the masses.

"Grow the sport" has been the battle cry of the PRS since it's start and it's done somethings to do it and somethings that goes against that but that's for another post. You will always get people who come in and then find it's not for them and leave. Is what it is. Happens in any hobby. You can't try and dumb down the sport or make tons of rules and divisions to just try and make new people come in and feel good. They are coming in. It's up to them if they want to stay. The sport was growing before the PRS was ever a thought and it continues to grow.

"Grow the sport" battle cry is kind of like the Democrats saying "If it saves one kid" in their rush to ban guns. I cringe at both when I hear them used to push an agenda.

ETA And yes Production class now as it sits is a joke as the rifle/scope prices have just been getting raised to conform to sponsors new products with higher prices. Not anything to do with the new shooter or bringing shooters to the sport.

 

[The Godfather]

Some local matches let the guy who wins production walk the table right after the 3rd place finisher and receive the same trophy as the other top finishers. Many top production finishes are just slightly better than mid pack scores. I have no problem with this but I can see a lot of frustration from other shooters.

The MSRP cap is not working. MSRP for a RPR is 2k ish but street price is $1350. THAT’s the rifle the production class should be targeting. As it is now the $3k matrix pro rifle above makes the entire class a complete joke.

 

[Emerson0311]

"Grow the sport" has been the battle cry of the PRS since it's start and it's done somethings to do it and somethings that goes against that but that's for another post. You will always get people who come in and then find it's not for them and leave. Is what it is. Happens in any hobby. You can't try and dumb down the sport or make tons of rules and divisions to just try and make new people come in and feel good. They are coming in. It's up to them if they want to stay. The sport was growing before the PRS was ever a thought and it continues to grow.

"Grow the sport" battle cry is kind of like the Democrats saying "If it saves one kid" in their rush to ban guns. I cringe at both when I hear them used to push an agenda.

ETA And yes Production class now as it sits is a joke as the rifle/scope prices have just been getting raised to conform to sponsors new products with higher prices. Not anything to do with the new shooter or bringing shooters to the sport.

I guess if the $$ works it’s good enough for now.

 

[308pirate]

I have pretty much zero knowledge of classes in USPSA and other pistol formats. So, serious question......are there any classes that would keep you from winning the overall at a match?

Or are there relatively frequent times when someone not running whatever the super race gun open class is......winning? Not like once in a blue moon, but frequently enough that you would say the class doesn't limit the shooter's ability to win.....skill level being equal?l

First thing that will blow your mind: despite what you see in Practiscore there is no overall winner at either an IDPA or USPSA match. There are only division winners.

There is a reason for that. And the reason is that, despite what some here seem to think, the equipment division you choose can have a significant bearing on your results.

Take two shooters of equal skill, one with an open pistol (the raciest) and one with a production pistol, the open shooter will almost completely dominate.

Make the match up open vs carry optics and open will still come out on top most often than not.

Those who say the closer distances found in pistol matches mostly negate firearm performance differences simply don't know shit from shinola.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

They do have that already if you are shooting the pro-series 2 day PRS matches. The categories are Amateur, Marksman, Semi-Pro and then the Pro class. At the end of every season they reclassify you into a new class based on where you finished in the overall rankings. There are class trophies at every 2 day match, and there is a $1k prize check and a trophy for winning each division at the end of the year.

I did not know that. Thank you.

 

[maximusdecimusmeridius]

The only rules should be safety rules and weight classes

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

The only rules should be safety rules and weight classes

I ain't going on no diet just to compete

 

[iceng]

Factory ammo and weight limits (on guns !).

Prpblem sorted.

 

[ToddKS]

There isn't a single "production" or "stock" division in any shooting sport that limits you to what most people consider a "production" firearm.

Likewise about 95% of the pistols in either USPSA or IDPA Carry Optics divisions are nothing that most people would consider "carry" guns.

They're just names given to an arbitrary set of characteristics used to group firearms. Arguing or complaining about it is stupid

Who fucking cares?

I shoot open. My post was neither an argument, nor a complaint. It was a statement answering the question below posted by the OP.

OP: "I've read a few threads where the Production rifle Division is seen as a joke, but I don't understand why."

Response: "The common criticism of the Production division in PRS is that the rifles being used (and allowed under the rules) are not what most people would consider a "production" rifle."

 

[Rob01]

Factory ammo and weight limits (on guns !).

Prpblem sorted.

Factory ammo was tried to level the field years back and it didn't work.

 

[iceng]

Did know this. Thanks.

 

[308pirate]

Factory ammo was tried to level the field years back and it didn't work.

the field will never be level because some people just work harder than others

 

[Rob01]

the field will never be level because some people just work harder than others

True for the shooter side of it but they were trying to level the gear. They tried to do it with all the same rifles at ASC one year and it failed too.

 

[lash]

True for the shooter side of it but they were trying to level the gear. They tried to do it with all the same rifles at ASC one year and it failed too.

Living in the Daytona area, it’s hard not to compare that with the NASCAR IROC division. Boring as hell until one car makes a slip and takes out 1/2 of the field. Two more such incidents and the victors cruise into final lap in a very small field.

Comparison is the very narrow scoring band the majority of the field will be operating in. 0.01 second lead will be cheated over.

 

[Birddog6424]

I have pretty much zero knowledge of classes in USPSA and other pistol formats. So, serious question......are there any classes that would keep you from winning the overall at a match?

Or are there relatively frequent times when someone not running whatever the super race gun open class is......winning? Not like once in a blue moon, but frequently enough that you would say the class doesn't limit the shooter's ability to win.....skill level being equal?

Yes. Single Stack, which is pretty much the 1911 class. Limited 10, and Production class. All have magazine and/or power factor limitations. And of course revolver.

Those divisions can't hold a candle to an Open divisions major power factor race gun with 22 round capacity, comped, with a red dot.

If you're good enough, Limited division guys get wins over Open. Or of course, the new PCC division, which is essentially a 9mm AR15.

 

[Birddog6424]

I've been a PRS Match Director for 8 years. This will be my 6th year hosting a PRS Pro Series Qualifier. I've been there casting my votes for Rule changes for years now, and having conversations on our direction with Shannon Kay and Ken Wheeler. I'm not a huge fan of Production for the same reason you all aren't fans. But I understand the very simple reason for its existence.

It brings a ton of sponsorship money into the sport we wouldn't see otherwise.

By allowing deep pocket sponsors such as Ruger, Savage, etc, to participate with factory shooters like Doug Koenig and Matt Alwine, we give them reason to sponsor and participate.

Matt wins matches outright running a factory Savage. So the right shooter can compete. But as mentioned, there's a handful of Production guys, along with a handful of Tac guys or Mil/LEO that are very good shooters, but from there it quickly falls off the cliff into the cannon fodder shooters and mid packers.

My personal opinion? What's wrong with it? Don't like it, don't shoot it. Shoot a good match and they won't walk the table in front of you. Those divisions don't take anything away from you.

Just like trophies in Senior, Junior, Lady etc.. They don't take anything from you. But they give those folks something to compete for against their peers. More fun for everyone. That's pretty much the point. Be diverse and inclusive (in a non-Disney way) and show folks a good time! Hand out a bunch of trophies.

We do this for fun folks. Go have fun.

 

[Rob01]

Exactly. Production is about sponsor money. Period. It doesn’t have any effect on me personally but it bothers me when a new shooter is coming in and worrying about staying in production more so than getting good gear.

 

[iceng]

That exactly. Ive met multiple shooters over the years more concerned about trying game and win production, than actually competing in the event and having fun and meeting new friends.

 

[Ronws]

I've been a PRS Match Director for 8 years. This will be my 6th year hosting a PRS Pro Series Qualifier. I've been there casting my votes for Rule changes for years now, and having conversations on our direction with Shannon Kay and Ken Wheeler. I'm not a huge fan of Production for the same reason you all aren't fans. But I understand the very simple reason for its existence.

It brings a ton of sponsorship money into the sport we wouldn't see otherwise.

By allowing deep pocket sponsors such as Ruger, Savage, etc, to participate with factory shooters like Doug Koenig and Matt Alwine, we give them reason to sponsor and participate.

Matt wins matches outright running a factory Savage. So the right shooter can compete. But as mentioned, there's a handful of Production guys, along with a handful of Tac guys or Mil/LEO that are very good shooters, but from there it quickly falls off the cliff into the cannon fodder shooters and mid packers.

My personal opinion? What's wrong with it? Don't like it, don't shoot it. Shoot a good match and they won't walk the table in front of you. Those divisions don't take anything away from you.

Just like trophies in Senior, Junior, Lady etc.. They don't take anything from you. But they give those folks something to compete for against their peers. More fun for everyone. That's pretty much the point. Be diverse and inclusive (in a non-Disney way) and show folks a good time! Hand out a bunch of trophies.

We do this for fun folks. Go have fun.

This makes it understandable. And I think what some others are commenting about is a guy may put in some premium parts and get away with calling it production. Will this lead to inspections like they do at NASCAR or even at the semi-pro levels of hot stock racing, for example?

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I've been a PRS Match Director for 8 years. This will be my 6th year hosting a PRS Pro Series Qualifier. I've been there casting my votes for Rule changes for years now, and having conversations on our direction with Shannon Kay and Ken Wheeler. I'm not a huge fan of Production for the same reason you all aren't fans. But I understand the very simple reason for its existence.

It brings a ton of sponsorship money into the sport we wouldn't see otherwise.

By allowing deep pocket sponsors such as Ruger, Savage, etc, to participate with factory shooters like Doug Koenig and Matt Alwine, we give them reason to sponsor and participate.

Matt wins matches outright running a factory Savage. So the right shooter can compete. But as mentioned, there's a handful of Production guys, along with a handful of Tac guys or Mil/LEO that are very good shooters, but from there it quickly falls off the cliff into the cannon fodder shooters and mid packers.

My personal opinion? What's wrong with it? Don't like it, don't shoot it. Shoot a good match and they won't walk the table in front of you. Those divisions don't take anything away from you.

Just like trophies in Senior, Junior, Lady etc.. They don't take anything from you. But they give those folks something to compete for against their peers. More fun for everyone. That's pretty much the point. Be diverse and inclusive (in a non-Disney way) and show folks a good time! Hand out a bunch of trophies.

We do this for fun folks. Go have fun.

I believe that is one of the reasons that IHMSA died. Lack of factory support. It was such a specialized game, that demanded absolute amateur participation. No sponsorship, no money, but worse, no one manufacturer really willing to put up money,, not knowing who or how good the who was that was putting their products on the line. (Except Freedom Arms who make the finest revolver in extent)

But the key to any sport, it has to be fun over being challenging. If it’s all fun and no challenge, it will not sustained itself. If it’s all challenge and no fun, it will die on the vine, quicker than a deer can strip its leaves. But as they said in the movie, without the bucks, there will be no Buck Rogers. Without the cash, there will be no ringing of steel.

 

[rothgyr]

I wish more of that sponsorship money could turn into incentives for people to shoot the divisions. I'm only shooting regionally, and I've only seen one person in the last two years compete in Production (he won, obviously), and all he got out of it was a trophy and stunted scores. If there were ten guys in the region shooting production, I'd be tempted to do it. Same with Tac and Gas. If there were a fixed prize for the season for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, it might attract more people. Instead that sponsorship money disappears into... Where does that money end up getting used?

 

[Rob01]

I believe that is one of the reasons that IHMSA died. Lack of factory support. It was such a specialized game, that demanded absolute amateur participation. No sponsorship, no money, but worse, no one manufacturer really willing to put up money,, not knowing who or how good the who was that was putting their products on the line. (Except Freedom Arms who make the finest revolver in extent)

But the key to any sport, it has to be fun over being challenging. If it’s all fun and no challenge, it will not sustained itself. If it’s all challenge and no fun, it will die on the vine, quicker than a deer can strip its leaves. But as they said in the movie, without the bucks, there will be no Buck Rogers. Without the cash, there will be no ringing of steel.

Not really true. There were matches all over the country before there was a PRS and will be after.

I wish more of that sponsorship money could turn into incentives for people to shoot the divisions. I'm only shooting regionally, and I've only seen one person in the last two years compete in Production (he won, obviously), and all he got out of it was a trophy and stunted scores. If there were ten guys in the region shooting production, I'd be tempted to do it. Same with Tac and Gas. If there were a fixed prize for the season for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, it might attract more people. Instead that sponsorship money disappears into... Where does that money end up getting used?

Shhh don't ask where the money goes.

 

[hlee]

So, kinda from the outside looking in (I’ve only ever competed regionally, and it’s been a few years), here is what I have seen as the arguments against production class.

It should be a “gateway” for new shooters to “run what ya’ brung” at their first few matches. The can get their feet wet with whatever rifle they have, then make a decision on continuing to compete, staying in production, or moving in to open. But, it has turned into (or wears the guise of) the place where upper-mid pack shooters “hide” from top competition.

Open shooters also balk at the notion that a mid pack shooter that wins production would “walk the table” before an open shooter who finished higher overall, but lower in his/her class.

The max price of rifle/optic becomes the de facto minimum cost of entry into the division. The upper end of the “production market” truly represents “semi-custom offerings; built to meet the msrp, but give the shooter a custom(ish) experience. Big box store rifles need not apply.

So what you have in production class are new shooters with whatever rifle they had in the safe, and experienced shooters gaming the rules to stay in the shallow end of the competition, and nothing in between.

Open shooters see the upper end of production class as rules-lawyers tgat are gaming the system to get a leg up on the prize table. Production shooters don’t see what the fuss is all about; “I’m just following the rules…”

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Not really true. There were matches all over the country before there was a PRS and will be after.



Shhh don't ask where the money goes.

Rob you have no idea how expensive that website is to host , update and maintain. Also, K&M didn't just miracle itself into a golf course.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

So, kinda from the outside looking in (I’ve only ever competed regionally, and it’s been a few years), here is what I have seen as the arguments against production class.

It should be a “gateway” for new shooters to “run what ya’ brung” at their first few matches. The can get their feet wet with whatever rifle they have, then make a decision on continuing to compete, staying in production, or moving in to open. But, it has turned into (or wears the guise of) the place where upper-mid pack shooters “hide” from top competition.

Open shooters also balk at the notion that a mid pack shooter that wins production would “walk the table” before an open shooter who finished higher overall, but lower in his/her class.

The max price of rifle/optic becomes the de facto minimum cost of entry into the division. The upper end of the “production market” truly represents “semi-custom offerings; built to meet the msrp, but give the shooter a custom(ish) experience. Big box store rifles need not apply.

So what you have in production class are new shooters with whatever rifle they had in the safe, and experienced shooters gaming the rules to stay in the shallow end of the competition, and nothing in between.

Open shooters see the upper end of production class as rules-lawyers tgat are gaming the system to get a leg up on the prize table. Production shooters don’t see what the fuss is all about; “I’m just following the rules…”

It doesnt matter what you bring your first couple matches you are going to get waffle stomped.

People have crazy unrealistic expectations coming in. I know I did. You can be a combat vet marksman with a ton of trigger time, and you will still get your shit pushed in because you do not know the game yet. Getting beat by plumbers and road sign holders is humbling, but it happens to us all.

Production is about money, nothing more nothing less. It subsidizes the sport (or at least keeps the PRS from asking for more money from us/MD's). Ownership gets their nut, we get to shoot matches, everyone is happy.

I would like to see a limit of production to actual factory ammo you buy from a retailer (not custom ammo). The best shooters will still hammer, but they will drop shots due to ammo limitations. That combined with a factory gun would be an actual limitation, like TAC class is.

 

[lash]

Every time I hear the factory ammo limitation mentioned, I think of the fact that I still use factory Prime ammo binders and boxes for the ammo that I’ve been hand loading since about forever. They just work for me, but are not factory of course.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I shot a local match last weekend. Shot factory ammo since I didnt feel like reloading and want to save bergers and barrel life for 2 days.

Norma 143GTX 6.5cm, basically what the old prime was. Great ammo, some of the best factory ammo Ive tested over the years in fact.

I know i dropped 2 shots due to the ammo on a long range stage. First 3 hits were perfectly centered, next 2 over the top of the target. Ammo was only explanation.

I probably would have gained 3-4 points at a 1 day using my 6gt instead of that factory ammo. With smaller targets the margin of error is not alot, especially on targets like KYL racks.

Point is. Mass produced factory ammo, even match quality, is a handicap. Its why I think production should be limited to it.

 

[psharon78]

Production class should be:
true production rifles, Ruger, Tikka, Savage, Remington, etc. Can you go to a regular sporting goods store and buy the rifle off the shelf? I'd even throw in AI, Barret and those manufacturers.

 

[iceng]

"True" production is the issue, as i see it. You can not limit one manuf over another. "True production" scope, or ammo ? Do you mean main stream ? See, its a dicey one.

Dollar value is good, but allowing a AI rifle with after market proof pre fit barrel to compete against other production rifles, or a MPA built rifle in factory 6BR, against a ruger RPR, or tikka tacA1, or howa 1500..

People who are new often think "yes im new, yes i need to learn this game, no i dont expect to win straight up, however at least we are in a level playing field with gear". Thats how i see problems occur.

New shooters get completely put off by this. Not by loosing, or coming 15th, but by "mentally" thinking they had equal chance based on gear (not skill).

Kid joins baseball team.. buys basic mitt and bat, reasonable shoes and helmet. Dad loves that his kid is out playing.. kid gets disheartened because he can not hit the ball as hard, because his hand hurts from catching fly balls in hit mitt, which gave him a small bruise.. and his bat is not premium enough to rip the skin off the ball when he hits it.

Yes he learns, but he learns a life lesson. Equal is not always equal.

Are we shooting matches to buy points, or have fun ?

 

[lash]

"True" production is the issue, as i see it. You can not limit one manuf over another. "True production" scope, or ammo ? Do you mean main stream ? See, its a dicey one.

Dollar value is good, but allowing a AI rifle with after market proof pre fit barrel to compete against other production rifles, or a MPA built rifle in factory 6BR, against a ruger RPR, or tikka tacA1, or howa 1500..

People who are new often think "yes im new, yes i need to learn this game, no i dont expect to win straight up, however at least we are in a level playing field with gear". Thats how i see problems occur.

New shooters get completely put off by this. Not by loosing, or coming 15th, but by "mentally" thinking they had equal chance based on gear (not skill).

Kid joins baseball team.. buys basic mitt and bat, reasonable shoes and helmet. Dad loves that his kid is out playing.. kid gets disheartened because he can not hit the ball as hard, because his hand hurts from catching fly balls in hit mitt, which gave him a small bruise.. and his bat is not premium enough to rip the skin off the ball when he hits it.

Yes he learns, but he learns a life lesson. Equal is not always equal.

Are we shooting matches to buy points, or have fun ?

I would argue that we are, generally speaking, shooting matches to have fun. IMO, if you are not having fun, then why bother?

 

[Birddog6424]

It's a misconception that Production is an entry level division. A very long running misconception in fact. Shannon never intended it as a "run what you brung" division. He always intended it for factory Pro shooters. Sponsored guys. Serious competitors running top of the line factory rifles.

 

[Rob01]

It's a misconception that Production is an entry level division. A very long running misconception in fact. Shannon never intended it as a "run what you brung" division. He always intended it for factory Pro shooters. Sponsored guys. Serious competitors running top of the line factory rifles.

That's not how it was intended in the beginning of PRS about 3 owners before him. It may have morphed into that but not the initial intention.

 

[Birddog6424]

That's not how it was intended in the beginning of PRS about 3 owners before him. It may have morphed into that but not the initial intention.

Yes, that's my understanding as well. Perhaps that's why the misconception persists.

I had a lengthy phone call with Shannon in 2020 when the MDs were voting on stripping Matt Alwine of the Production win at the Finale. I was one of the few MDs along with Jake Vibbert that felt the rules of what constitutes a Production rifle were vague, and Matt was caught up in the red tape of the description. An error I didn't believe justified stripping the trophy. He earned it with a 3rd overall at the Finale. Shannon was pretty vehement that he was trying to overcome the perception that Production was a beginner division and was trying to take it into a high quality factory rifle division that would draw top shooters.

I think he made a little bit of headway. It's certainly the reason for the ever increasing budget limit allowed for a rifle and scope. They want it to attract more shooters.

 

[Rob01]

Yes, that's my understanding as well. Perhaps that's why the misconception persists.

I had a lengthy phone call with Shannon in 2020 when the MDs were voting on stripping Matt Alwine of the Production win at the Finale. I was one of the few MDs along with Jake Vibbert that felt the rules of what constitutes a Production rifle were vague, and Matt was caught up in the red tape of the description. An error I didn't believe justified stripping the trophy. He earned it with a 3rd overall at the Finale. Shannon was pretty vehement that he was trying to overcome the perception that Production was a beginner division and was trying to take it into a high quality factory rifle division that would draw top shooters.

I think he made a little bit of headway. It's certainly the reason for the ever increasing budget limit allowed for a rifle and scope. They want it to attract more shooters.

Not really a misconception when it was meant to be that from the beginning and changed later down the road to chase the money.

The budget increases where obvious why they were happening when sponsors came out with new scopes and "production rifles" that were $500 over the last years limit so hey why not just up it another $500. LOL They want to make production some big sponsor division with their top shooters shooting their rifles then that's even more of a reason newer shooters should not strive to stay in it and just shoot open.

 

[lash]

Not really a misconception when it was meant to be that from the beginning and changed later down the road to chase the money.

The budget increases where obvious why they were happening when sponsors came out with new scopes and "production rifles" that were $500 over the last years limit so hey why not just up it another $500. LOL They want to make production some big sponsor division with their top shooters shooting their rifles then that's even more of a reason newer shooters should not strive to stay in it and just shoot open.

I can’t argue with that.

 

[hlee]

It's a misconception that Production is an entry level division. A very long running misconception in fact. Shannon never intended it as a "run what you brung" division. He always intended it for factory Pro shooters. Sponsored guys. Serious competitors running top of the line factory rifles.

Interesting, as a casual search finds the following quote- verbatim- on several site; almost as though they were copy/pasting from a script…

“Production division was designed for new shooters to take an off-the-shelf rifle and optic and go compete.”

Of course, it then goes on to say “Further rules show that the manufacturer must be substantiated, with a minimum production run of 50 rifles before being qualified as a production class gun.”

A “production run” of 50 rifles is is laughably small to call it an “off-the-shelf” option.

Production class is a joke because it doesn’t know what it wants to be. I mean, it’s the class for No ice high level competitors to shoot off the shelf rifles than can’t be found on shelves.

 

[308pirate]

All this shit has been figured out already and yet here all of you are behaving as if this "has nevah dun befoah"

 

[iceng]

That's not how it was intended in the beginning of PRS about 3 owners before him. It may have morphed into that but not the initial intention.

Yes.. and @Birddog6424 also has a great point. Both of which i agree with. Production is "factory production comp shooters".

The layman new shooter THINKS production against his howa1500 bass-pro shop weekend discount special, but doesnt understand.

More eduction perhaps ? If you are joining a new type of sport or competiton, its on you to know the rules and how to play, if you dont do your homework... oh well.

 

[hlee]

All this shit has been figured out already and yet here all of you are behaving as if this "has nevah dun befoah"

Slow news day…