Newbie Asks: Why do you say the Production (Rifle) Division is a Joke?

[Mormegil87]

Those last three posts are solid.

As a small local MD who is truly not trying to be big, I appreciate that people come to my matches, even if that’s just so they can add to their regional PRS score.

Since I also used to shoot more before there was a PRS, I have to agree that it’s not the same. Some things just don’t translate as well to a format that accommodates multiple squads unless there is plenty of acreage and RSOs help to facilitate. By that, I mean some of the stages that are fun but take much more time per shooter or involve movement more than 6 feet or challenge your methods of solving a shooting task.

Technology has also changed things. Rangfinders, kestrels and ballistic apps make some of the old style stages difficult to run with any expectation of fairness between competitors.

That being said, there truly are more people wanting to get into long range or just be part of the game and that is a good thing.

The other part is a growing number, probably in the majority at this point; don't care about being tactical or practical in terms of how PRS translates to mil/LEO and hunting. Most guys are in it because it's a game and it's something to do on a Saturday or Saturday and Sunday.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

The other part is a growing number, probably in the majority at this point; don't care about being tactical or practical in terms of how PRS translates to mil/LEO and hunting. Most guys are in it because it's a game and it's something to do on a Saturday or Saturday and Sunday.

Yep. Shooters have spoken. People want to put heavy rifles on props and shoot shit. And they want to make a lot of impacts relatively speaking. I've personally had match attendance drop by up to half with just the introduction of a stage per match that has the purpose of training/making you better. Like maybe no bag or limited gear or something else. People just didn't go for it.

I know of some regional matches where the winner only drops 5 or less shots sell out when capped at 80-100 shooters. But harder matches in the exact same geographical area get 35 shooters.

 

[lash]

Yep. Shooters have spoken. People want to put heavy rifles on props and shoot shit. And they want to make a lot of impacts relatively speaking. I've personally had match attendance drop by up to half with just the introduction of a stage per match that has the purpose of training/making you better. Like maybe no bag or limited gear or something else. People just didn't go for it.

I know of some regional matches where the winner only drops 5 or less shots sell out when capped at 80-100 shooters. But harder matches in the exact same geographical area get 35 shooters.

True story. Despite my personal preferences otherwise, I’ve had to drop unsupported stages and a couple other stage types that challenged critical thinking and technique.

The people that shoot my matches tell me that they like them, but my attendance is on that low end. Fortunately, that works for me, but if I were trying to boost attendance to maximize dollars, I’d have to make more changes.

 

[Rob01]

Those last three posts are solid.

As a small local MD who is truly not trying to be big, I appreciate that people come to my matches, even if that’s just so they can add to their regional PRS score.

Since I also used to shoot more before there was a PRS, I have to agree that it’s not the same. Some things just don’t translate as well to a format that accommodates multiple squads unless there is plenty of acreage and RSOs help to facilitate. By that, I mean some of the stages that are fun but take much more time per shooter or involve movement more than 6 feet or challenge your methods of solving a shooting task.

Technology has also changed things. Rangfinders, kestrels and ballistic apps make some of the old style stages difficult to run with any expectation of fairness between competitors.

That being said, there truly are more people wanting to get into long range or just be part of the game and that is a good thing.

I guess if points are your only reason to shoot a match the PRS is a good thing but why did you shoot matches before the PRS if you didn't get points?

Not the same doesn't mean better. Seriously though there were always squads and stages of fire like today. We shot off things and at steel and paper. You can drop the paper as it does take time but matches aren't much different. There were always matches that had different things due to their location like Rifles Only having the O course and helo but we were always shooting off props at steel. I don't think matches are much different in the stages but the equipment has morphed as mentioned.

And how does technology effect fairness or a stage? Everyone has the ability and tools to do anything they need to shoot a stage and if they don't they can borrow it in their squad. This is done now and everyone helps anyone needing it.

I agree there are more people wanting to shoot matches. And they want to have fun and hit steel and challenge themselves. The numbers have always been growing and it can be seen by this site.

As to harder meaning less attendance, doesn't that mean that you are dumbing down the match for people to feel good? Is just getting a lot of people to come and give you money the meaning of the sport now?


ETA I don't want you or anyone else to think I am totally against the PRS as an organization either but there does seem to be some cleaning up to be done and lets see if the new owners can do it. I am glad we have MDs like you guys.

And I am still a PRS member. #48 I'm getting a little long in the tooth but still enjoy matches even though I know I will not win. Points don't drive me. The fun and camaraderie does.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

As to harder meaning less attendance, doesn't that mean that you are dumbing down the match for people to feel good? Is just getting a lot of people to come and give you money the meaning of the sport now?

Of course it does. But there are different opinions and points of view and none are invalid.

Some MD's goals are to make better shooters. Some MD's goals are to provide for as many shooters as possible. And other MD's are motivated by attendance and money.


Who are any of us to judge if an MD makes meatball matches and 100 shooters show up. And another MD makes a tough match that is intended to make people better shooters and gets 35? Both are providing a service that shooters want.


Since you used RO as an example. If part of this wasn't about making money, the quarterly matches at Rifles Only would be free. They aren't losing any money on Sunday mornings as their facility is just sitting there when not used.

 

[Rob01]

Of course it does. But there are different opinions and points of view and none are invalid.

Some MD's goals are to make better shooters. Some MD's goals are to provide for as many shooters as possible. And other MD's are motivated by attendance and money.


Who are any of us to judge if an MD makes meatball matches and 100 shooters show up. And another MD makes a tough match that is intended to make people better shooters and gets 35? Both are providing a service that shooters want.


Since you used RO as an example. If part of this wasn't about making money, the quarterly matches at Rifles Only would be free. They aren't losing any money on Sunday mornings as their facility is just sitting there when not used.

But that we have people going to all types shows we have a lot of shooters wanting to shoot the sport which is great. Room for both. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

And I never said people shouldn't make money. Of course they should and that is the RO's business and they should charge. But when something happens like happened in the rimfire side where MDs are told they have to charge a certain amount of money for a two day match then that is taking it out of the MDs hands what they want to charge. I think MDs should have control of their matches.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

But that we have people going to all types shows we have a lot of shooters wanting to shoot the sport which is great. Room for both. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

And I never said people shouldn't make money. Of course they should and that is the RO's business and they should charge. But when something happens like happened in the rimfire side where MDs are told they have to charge a certain amount of money for a two day match then that is taking it out of the MDs hands what they want to charge. I think MDs should have control of their matches.

Agreed. I took a couple year sabbatical....so I hadn't heard about the rimfire thing. I'm kinda split on it. If it's the governing body, say PRS....if you want to be part of that organization then you need to conform to their requirements.

I can see several reason why they would want to either raise match fees or set a minimum fee. I can also see MD's wanting to have as much control as possible. Though I probably still side more with the governing body. As the MD always has the option to run a non sanctioned match.


Not long ago, we looked into starting a new league/governing body. Once we found out how PRS and NRL take almost zero money from match fees and other things......we shitcanned the idea. As that means your two sources of revenue are membership fees and sponsorship charges. So you're basically just a marketing agency who uses matches and your membership as the marketing too. Just not enough meat on the bone to be extremely profitable.

 

[Rob01]

Agreed. I took a couple year sabbatical....so I hadn't heard about the rimfire thing. I'm kinda split on it. If it's the governing body, say PRS....if you want to be part of that organization then you need to conform to their requirements.

I can see several reason why they would want to either raise match fees or set a minimum fee. I can also see MD's wanting to have as much control as possible. Though I probably still side more with the governing body. As the MD always has the option to run a non sanctioned match.


Not long ago, we looked into starting a new league/governing body. Once we found out how PRS and NRL take almost zero money from match fees and other things......we shitcanned the idea. As that means your two sources of revenue are membership fees and sponsorship charges. So you're basically just a marketing agency who uses matches and your membership as the marketing too. Just not enough meat on the bone to be extremely profitable.

As a shooter I think the MDs should have the last word on what they want to charge as only they know their time and overhead. If a MD want to be nice to their shooter base and charge a certain amount then if the PRS is not getting anything but a little cash for keeping track of scores then why would they care? Is it just up-charging to make it look like it's worth more? Just don't get why they would care.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

One thing I learned as a match director and as and continue to be a competitor. The fun of shooting steel is shooting steel. Because shooting dirt is pretty much pointless as dirt is already pretty much already dead. And DEAD is the key word. Making matches challenging is fine. It does a great job of thinning out the people who are not so good, leaving the best shooters plenty of time to continue to shoot those great scores. However, it will get awful lonely at the shooting line. When those really good shooters age out and they will, sure enough, the sport is DEAD.

Problem, is, if it is made too easy, it looses its relevance. When missing is almost impossible, it is no more fun than never hitting anything.

The obvious answer is to have various stages, some hard, some easy, some very hard and some very easy. Serves all purposes. Helps the newbies actually enjoy themselves and provides the challenge that the better shooters really need. Its ok to have easy stages, and its ok to have really tough stages.

However, if the matches don't cater to all levels of shooters, eventually you are going to kill your base and without the base of new shooters coming it, the best shooters will not be numerous enough to continue to support the sport.

This is very un-popular with the really fine marksmen. But again, it's the base that makes the sport.

 

[Ronws]

Here is a production rifle with store-bought ammo doing quite well because shooter is good.

 

[lash]

One thing I learned as a match director and as and continue to be a competitor. The fun of shooting steel is shooting steel. Because shooting dirt is pretty much pointless as dirt is already pretty much already dead. And DEAD is the key word. Making matches challenging is fine. It does a great job of thinning out the people who are not so good, leaving the best shooters plenty of time to continue to shoot those great scores. However, it will get awful lonely at the shooting line. When those really good shooters age out and they will, sure enough, the sport is DEAD.

Problem, is, if it is made too easy, it looses its relevance. When missing is almost impossible, it is no more fun than never hitting anything.

The obvious answer is to have various stages, some hard, some easy, some very hard and some very easy. Serves all purposes. Helps the newbies actually enjoy themselves and provides the challenge that the better shooters really need. Its ok to have easy stages, and its ok to have really tough stages.

However, if the matches don't cater to all levels of shooters, eventually you are going to kill your base and without the base of new shooters coming it, the best shooters will not be numerous enough to continue to support the sport.

This is very un-popular with the really fine marksmen. But again, it's the base that makes the sport.

That’s what I’ve said all along. And I’m a MD.

It takes a bit more thought, but a match has to try and find a balance. In addition, you try to mix it up from match to match, so that things aren’t stale or predictable. Having a limited range and space makes this a bit more of a challenge, but that’s part of the game too, for me.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

One thing I learned as a match director and as and continue to be a competitor. The fun of shooting steel is shooting steel. Because shooting dirt is pretty much pointless as dirt is already pretty much already dead. And DEAD is the key word. Making matches challenging is fine. It does a great job of thinning out the people who are not so good, leaving the best shooters plenty of time to continue to shoot those great scores. However, it will get awful lonely at the shooting line. When those really good shooters age out and they will, sure enough, the sport is DEAD.

Problem, is, if it is made too easy, it looses its relevance. When missing is almost impossible, it is no more fun than never hitting anything.

The obvious answer is to have various stages, some hard, some easy, some very hard and some very easy. Serves all purposes. Helps the newbies actually enjoy themselves and provides the challenge that the better shooters really need. Its ok to have easy stages, and its ok to have really tough stages.

However, if the matches don't cater to all levels of shooters, eventually you are going to kill your base and without the base of new shooters coming it, the best shooters will not be numerous enough to continue to support the sport.

This is very un-popular with the really fine marksmen. But again, it's the base that makes the sport.

I think this is fairly true for 2 day national matches. For regional matches however, I think it's a bit different.

For example, one of the largest regional clubs in the US is run by Prentice Wink in Navasota Tx. They are so popular he's had to institute a cap on monthly matches. Two single "trophy matches" (single day matches to have trophies and prizes, where most monthly matches have neither), I dropped 4 shots one match and was in a 4 way tie for 1st and had to go to tiebreaker stages, and the other I dropped 5 shots and placed 2nd. These both had 100 shooters or more. I was 181/190 for two matches and still didn't win both.

When you don't crush the field dropping 4 and 5 shots, the match is obviously on the "meatball" side of things. But there were still many others dropping double digits or more.

I think a huge reason he's so successful is the matches are not overly difficult (also doesn't hurt to be near a huge population near Houston), so people have fun hitting steal and not getting completely skull dragged. There's another match nearby that is purposely harder to prepare for national level matches. They get nowhere close to the same amount of shooters and they share the same overall shooter pool of that area.

Another example, when I was running matches I started to add a "marksmanship skill" stage in every match. Something like not using a bag or other things that would help make you a better all around marksman. My attendance dropped off a cliff until I removed those stages.



Obviously this could just be geographically specific and other areas of the country might have a shooter population that would stop going to a match like they do in Navasota. But in this area, easier gets more attendance that a normal difficulty level.

 

[hlee]

I think this is fairly true for 2 day national matches. For regional matches however, I think it's a bit different.

For example, one of the largest regional clubs in the US is run by Prentice Wink in Navasota Tx. They are so popular he's had to institute a cap on monthly matches. Two single "trophy matches" (single day matches to have trophies and prizes, where most monthly matches have neither), I dropped 4 shots one match and was in a 4 way tie for 1st and had to go to tiebreaker stages, and the other I dropped 5 shots and placed 2nd. These both had 100 shooters or more. I was 181/190 for two matches and still didn't win both.

When you don't crush the field dropping 4 and 5 shots, the match is obviously on the "meatball" side of things. But there were still many others dropping double digits or more.

I think a huge reason he's so successful is the matches are not overly difficult (also doesn't hurt to be near a huge population near Houston), so people have fun hitting steal and not getting completely skull dragged. There's another match nearby that is purposely harder to prepare for national level matches. They get nowhere close to the same amount of shooters and they share the same overall shooter pool of that area.

Another example, when I was running matches I started to add a "marksmanship skill" stage in every match. Something like not using a bag or other things that would help make you a better all around marksman. My attendance dropped off a cliff until I removed those stages.



Obviously this could just be geographically specific and other areas of the country might have a shooter population that would stop going to a match like they do in Navasota. But in this area, easier gets more attendance that a normal difficulty level.

Doesn’t hurt that Prentice is good people. He lent a nightforce scope to a new shooter, to mount on his daughter’s Savage rascal, so she would have a gun to shoot. That big ol’ scope looked pretty odd on that tiny rifle, but she was able to shoot the match. He tried to lend me one of his match rifles when I showed up missing my bipod. (I borrowed a bipod from him instead) And, they really cater to the new shooters, with “new shooter squads” headed by seasoned shooters.

But yeah, the matches are relatively “easy,” and the scores from Best in Texas- when compared to other 2 day matches- bear that out. People want to shoot and have fun.

My son and I have joked about having tee shirts made that say “I’m just hear for lunch.”

 

[Ronws]

Doesn’t hurt that Prentice is good people. He lent a nightforce scope to a new shooter, to mount on his daughter’s Savage rascal, so she would have a gun to shoot. That big ol’ scope looked pretty odd on that tiny rifle, but she was able to shoot the match. He tried to lend me one of his match rifles when I showed up missing my bipod. (I borrowed a bipod from him instead) And, they really cater to the new shooters, with “new shooter squads” headed by seasoned shooters.

But yeah, the matches are relatively “easy,” and the scores from Best in Texas- when compared to other 2 day matches- bear that out. People want to shoot and have fun.

My son and I have joked about having tee shirts made that say “I’m just hear for lunch.”

Make that shirt and I will buy one.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Screw the lunch where is the apple truck.

 

[Mormegil87]

I like the shift towards boosting the midpack that we are seeing.

If the mid pack is in the 60-75% it makes its a lot more fun. Even at the top when there are 20 people within 5 or 6 points of each other. It also helps the mid pack see that the being towards the top is only a little practice and a few impacts away.

It also helps keep people engaged over the course of a season at the club level for the same reasons. Having 20-30 in position to take home season hardware going into the final regular match or the finale keeps people engaged. It manufacturers drama in a good way.

This is speaking at the club/regional level. I'm not sure how this translates to the national level.

 

[308pirate]

I like the shift towards boosting the midpack that we are seeing.

If the mid pack is in the 60-75% it makes its a lot more fun. Even at the top when there are 20 people within 5 or 6 points of each other. It also helps the mid pack see that the being towards the top is only a little practice and a few impacts away.

It also helps keep people engaged over the course of a season at the club level for the same reasons. Having 20-30 in position to take home season hardware going into the final regular match or the finale keeps people engaged. It manufacturers drama in a good way

The sport's intrinsic value must be very low if that's what keeps people engaged.

 

[Mormegil87]

The sport's intrinsic value must be very low if that's what keeps people engaged.

So how would you propose keeping people engaged?

Our club/regional series doesn't have any issues filling matches. We also don't have any issues attracting new shooters, our first match of the season last month, 25% of the attendees were at their first match. So our model seems to be working just fine. We also don't have prize tables.

 

[lash]

So how would you propose keeping people engaged?

Our club/regional series doesn't have any issues filling matches. We also don't have any issues attracting new shooters, our first match of the season last month, 25% of the attendees were at their first match. So our model seems to be working just fine.

Understand that while 308 hasn’t ever competed in the sport, he always has plenty of advice and criticism about it to hand out. His primary sport is USPSA/IPSC, where hitting the targets is rarely an issue and even the worst can do so. It is essentially a race game.

So not at all like PRS and a poor comparison or basis for judging same.

 

[308pirate]

Understand that while 308 hasn’t ever competed in the sport

You'd be wrong. The time suck wasn't worth it.

His primary sport is USPSA/IPSC, where hitting the targets is rarely an issue and even the worst can do so. It is essentially a race game

Shows how little you know about it.

So not at all like PRS and a poor comparison or basis for judging same.

The dynamics of competitor intrinsic motivation (process driven) vs extrinsic motivation (outcome driven) is the same in all shooting sports. Actually in all sports.

What I hear is that newer PRS shooters don't stay involved unless they see themselves winning some trinket or placing at a certain level. What I infer is that the sport will die unless noobs are given certain accommodations (stage designs, noob-only stages, rifle divisions where "high dollar" guns aren't allowed) to make them feel good about themselves.

None of that happens in any other shooting sport I've ever been involved with.

 

[hlee]

The sport's intrinsic value must be very low if that's what keeps people engaged.

If you are equating "intrinsic value" with practical applicability, then the intrinsic value of PRS is right up there with sporting clays...

Doesn't mean they are not fun.

 

[Mormegil87]

They both have more "intrinsic value" than his opinion on anything PRS related.

 

[308pirate]

If you are equating "intrinsic value" with practical applicability

intrinsic value = intrinsic motivation in this case.

 

[Birddog6424]

I think this is fairly true for 2 day national matches. For regional matches however, I think it's a bit different.

For example, one of the largest regional clubs in the US is run by Prentice Wink in Navasota Tx. They are so popular he's had to institute a cap on monthly matches. Two single "trophy matches" (single day matches to have trophies and prizes, where most monthly matches have neither), I dropped 4 shots one match and was in a 4 way tie for 1st and had to go to tiebreaker stages, and the other I dropped 5 shots and placed 2nd. These both had 100 shooters or more. I was 181/190 for two matches and still didn't win both.

When you don't crush the field dropping 4 and 5 shots, the match is obviously on the "meatball" side of things. But there were still many others dropping double digits or more.

I think a huge reason he's so successful is the matches are not overly difficult (also doesn't hurt to be near a huge population near Houston), so people have fun hitting steal and not getting completely skull dragged. There's another match nearby that is purposely harder to prepare for national level matches. They get nowhere close to the same amount of shooters and they share the same overall shooter pool of that area.

Another example, when I was running matches I started to add a "marksmanship skill" stage in every match. Something like not using a bag or other things that would help make you a better all around marksman. My attendance dropped off a cliff until I removed those stages.



Obviously this could just be geographically specific and other areas of the country might have a shooter population that would stop going to a match like they do in Navasota. But in this area, easier gets more attendance that a normal difficulty level.

His two day matches are the same though. His Rimfire Finale last year was a meatball match. These matches don't belong in the Pro Series of the PRS. Regional/club is fine. But on a national level they crap all over a level playing field. When a guy cleans his match which is an AG Cup/Qualifier match that is supposed to be on an increased level of difficulty, then something needs to be said to the MD. The guy in 30th place shouldn't be getting a 92%. This isn't the "meatball side", this is a big fat honkin' meatball match.

 

[lash]

His two day matches are the same though. His Rimfire Finale last year was a meatball match. These matches don't belong in the Pro Series of the PRS. Regional/club is fine. But on a national level they crap all over a level playing field. When a guy cleans his match which is an AG Cup/Qualifier match that is supposed to be on an increased level of difficulty, then something needs to be said to the MD. The guy in 30th place shouldn't be getting a 92%. This isn't the "meatball side", this is a big fat honkin' meatball match.

I have to agree with this. I try to maintain a hit percent in the mid 90s down to just over 30 for all shooters. It’s not really as easy as it might seem, but I’ve done okay so far. Every once in a while, like admittedly in my last match, I make a stage that’s just ridiculous even though I didn’t think so when I designed it.

I occasionally go back and check the stats of each stage to see where I can make improvements in either direction.

I’ve never had anyone clean the whole match yet. Stages, yes of course. PRS22.

 

[Mormegil87]

I have to agree with this. I try to maintain a hit percent in the mid 90s down to just over 30 for all shooters. It’s not really as easy as it might seem, but I’ve done okay so far. Every once in a while, like admittedly in my last match, I make a stage that’s just ridiculous even though I didn’t think so when I designed it.

I occasionally go back and check the stats of each stage to see where I can make improvements in either direction.

I’ve never had anyone clean the whole match yet. Stages, yes of course. PRS22.

Our MD ran analytics on our first match of the season. The average target size was 1.88 ish moa. Had he dropped it to even 1.75moa the mid pack scores would have dropped significantly. Granted it was the first match of the year and 25% of our shooter were shooting their first match. We also went away from the mental gymnastics stages we've had in the past. It seemed to help keep the match focused on shooting and kept the match flow smooth.

It can be really hard to balance a match to make it challenging for experienced shooters while keeping it fun for new guys. Morgun King had a really good take on one of the episodes of his podcast.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I think one of the oddities of our sport is that we put novices and amateurs through the exact same "challenge" level as the masters of the art, and stack their scores very clearly up against the other. We can talk all day long about what should motivate people, and how people should evaluate their performance against extremely high standards...but "should" has very little bearing on reality. Amateur tennis players don't sign up for tournaments against Federer (they wouldn't even be allowed to), and if Federer did play in a tournament against an amateur, it would be a charity event and he would dial it WAY down.

The very natural and typical human psychology isn't interested in getting stomped over and over again, various rare exceptions notwithstanding. Some sports handle this by creating competitor classifications, and lower-performing players get measured against their peer group but not against the experts. Other sports try to level the playing field to appeal to the masses; golf handicaps are the example that come to my mind.

If most matches are going to bundle the entire spectrum of the sport together, because we don't have enough participation to stratify it, then so be it. But it's pretty darn understandable that lots of casual players, who might otherwise pursue it further, will be turned off by shooting a 40-50%. Add on top of that the cost and technical complexity, and the fact that in many ways it's a solitary sport that doesn't always scratch the "social" itch as well as it could...yeah, not surprising how some of these attendance statistics shake out.

Just my thoughts, worth what you paid.

 

[Ronws]

I think one of the oddities of our sport is that we put novices and amateurs through the exact same "challenge" level as the masters of the art, and stack their scores very clearly up against the other. We can talk all day long about what should motivate people, and how people should evaluate their performance against extremely high standards...but "should" has very little bearing on reality. Amateur tennis players don't sign up for tournaments against Federer (they wouldn't even be allowed to), and if Federer did play in a tournament against an amateur, it would be a charity event and he would dial it WAY down.

The very natural and typical human psychology isn't interested in getting stomped over and over again, various rare exceptions notwithstanding. Some sports handle this by creating competitor classifications, and lower-performing players get measured against their peer group but not against the experts. Other sports try to level the playing field to appeal to the masses; golf handicaps are the example that come to my mind.

If most matches are going to bundle the entire spectrum of the sport together, because we don't have enough participation to stratify it, then so be it. But it's pretty darn understandable that lots of casual players, who might otherwise pursue it further, will be turned off by shooting a 40-50%. Add on top of that the cost and technical complexity, and the fact that in many ways it's a solitary sport that doesn't always scratch the "social" itch as well as it could...yeah, not surprising how some of these attendance statistics shake out.

Just my thoughts, worth what you paid.

And, almost conversely, there are people who love stomping on other people. Not because it produces good results or make a shooter better. It's just what they do. Stomp on people. I used to think that was cry out to get one's ass beat but no, that's too much motivation. Some people are trash in how they treat other people.

But on the converse of that, some newbies may endure the needless bullshit attitude to make achievements which also makes that person a better class of human. Which may not be much of a compliment but there it is.

 

[iceng]

I’ve never had anyone clean the whole match yet. Stages, yes of course. PRS22.

Im not aware of anyone cleaning a 2 day PRS centee fire match. I think someone did a club 1 day match, full clean, but thats about all ive heard of.
People cleaned a NRL22 match.. admittedly they are a 6 stage half day match.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Im not aware of anyone cleaning a 2 day PRS centee fire match. I think someone did a club 1 day match, full clean, but thats about all ive heard of.
People cleaned a NRL22 match.. admittedly they are a 6 stage half day match.

Austin did I believe. Ben gossett cleaned day 3 of the AG cup.

 

[iceng]

Austin did I believe. Ben gossett cleaned day 3 of the AG cup.

Oh nice ! Well done to them. Day 3 ? Why not clean day 1 and just idle for a few days. He did it the hard way.

 

[chevy_man]

There's a reason we do classes by finish, not by gun cost.


Production is a joke to me when I regularly beat guys with $10k setups and I don't have $4k in mine.

On the rimfire matches same thing. I use a Bergara to beat guys with Vudoos and Rim-x's. I'm shopping for a rim-x, but only because my kid needs a good 22.

 

[iceng]

Nothing wrong with spending money on a quality setup if you hwvr the cpin and are not a poor. However it does NOT buy points. You need actual practice for that.

I see rimX as an investment in goot magazines which feed, and work with a "full size" stock or chassis.

Cz457 is valid also if thats your thing. Those mags feed well.

 

[Ronws]

Nothing wrong with spending money on a quality setup if you hwvr the cpin and are not a poor. However it does NOT buy points. You need actual practice for that.

I see rimX as an investment in goot magazines which feed, and work with a "full size" stock or chassis.

Cz457 is valid also if thats your thing. Those mags feed well.

I like the hwvr and the cpin at the same time.

 

[lash]

There's a reason we do classes by finish, not by gun cost.


Production is a joke to me when I regularly beat guys with $10k setups and I don't have $4k in mine.

On the rimfire matches same thing. I use a Bergara to beat guys with Vudoos and Rim-x's. I'm shopping for a rim-x, but only because my kid needs a good 22.

Ultimately, I think the rating by class will shake out to be a better option than by gun cost. If it’s managed correctly and there are roughly equivalent trophies for each class, it will provide a drive for each level of shooter.

 

[chevy_man]

Ultimately, I think the rating by class will shake out to be a better option than by gun cost. If it’s managed correctly and there are roughly equivalent trophies for each class, it will provide a drive for each level of shooter.

We started doing little laser cut plates. It gives guys a memento without being expensive.

All our match proceeds go to the year end prize table. 1 table all year, and given away by raffle. Everyone who shoots gets a ticket, and after the match cash prizes are awarded to the top 3. Everyone else has a chance to win a $30 bag or a $3000 scope no matter the finish.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If you are equating "intrinsic value" with practical applicability, then the intrinsic value of PRS is right up there with sporting clays...

Doesn't mean they are not fun.

I think for alot of people, There is practical applicability. Alot of guys get into PRS to become better hunters (shooting side). They get hooked and become excellent riflemen.

Same can be said with sporting clays. Alot of hunters shoot clays to get ready for hunting season and then get hooked.

Both are IMO, 2 of the most fun shooting sports out there. Both sports make one a better rifleman and better shotgun shooter and you can take that to other endeavors. Hardware is cool but becoming a better shooter and the challenge of the games is what keeps most people coming back.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I think one of the oddities of our sport is that we put novices and amateurs through the exact same "challenge" level as the masters of the art, and stack their scores very clearly up against the other. We can talk all day long about what should motivate people, and how people should evaluate their performance against extremely high standards...but "should" has very little bearing on reality. Amateur tennis players don't sign up for tournaments against Federer (they wouldn't even be allowed to), and if Federer did play in a tournament against an amateur, it would be a charity event and he would dial it WAY down.

The very natural and typical human psychology isn't interested in getting stomped over and over again, various rare exceptions notwithstanding. Some sports handle this by creating competitor classifications, and lower-performing players get measured against their peer group but not against the experts. Other sports try to level the playing field to appeal to the masses; golf handicaps are the example that come to my mind.

If most matches are going to bundle the entire spectrum of the sport together, because we don't have enough participation to stratify it, then so be it. But it's pretty darn understandable that lots of casual players, who might otherwise pursue it further, will be turned off by shooting a 40-50%. Add on top of that the cost and technical complexity, and the fact that in many ways it's a solitary sport that doesn't always scratch the "social" itch as well as it could...yeah, not surprising how some of these attendance statistics shake out.

Just my thoughts, worth what you paid.

I would like to see them have Time limits for each class. For example. Pro shooter 90 seconds, Semi Pro - 100, Marksman 110, Amatuer 120, First 4 matches you shoot 150 seconds. As you progress you get bumped up to next tier. Anyone under pro cannot podium top 5 since they did not shoot same course. 6 onward everyone is stacked by score. You may need to reballance classifications more than once a year, or let people voluntarily shoot a higher class if they want, but it would provide a way to normalize the matches based on skill/experience level. It also doesn't mess with having different target/target sizes, different props, ect. People trully are competing within their class like most other shooting sports. Gives incremental goals to work on. Maybe change how prize tables are done so that top Am or MKM actually get something good.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

I would like to see them have Time limits for each class. For example. Pro shooter 90 seconds, Semi Pro - 100, Marksman 110, Amateur 120, First 4 matches you shoot 150 seconds. As you progress you get bumped up to next tier. Anyone under pro cannot podium top 5 since they did not shoot same course. 6 onward everyone is stacked by score. You may need to reballance classifications more than once a year, or let people voluntarily shoot a higher class if they want, but it would provide a way to normalize the matches based on skill/experience level. It also doesn't mess with having different target/target sizes, different props, ect. People trully are competing within their class like most other shooting sports. Gives incremental goals to work on. Maybe change how prize tables are done so that top Am or MKM actually get something good.

If the current classifications are to mean anything, there needs to be more of an effort made to recognize them at Pro series matches. Otherwise classification really means nothing and we're all just essentially shooting Pro.

For example, if PRS 2-day matches moved to an awards format similar to what some USPSA Area matches use.

Something along these lines:

Match Winner​

Trophies for 1st - 5th* Overall in Pro, Semi-Pro, Marksman, Amateur​

High Tactical**​

High Production**​

High Lady**​

High Senior**​

High Junior**​

High Military/Law Enforcement**​

​

*1st place in class will be awarded if there are 3 or more competitors in that class. 2nd place in class will be awarded if there are 6 or more competitors in that class. 3rd place in class will be awarded if there are 9 or more competitors in that class. 4th place in class will be awarded if there are 12 or more competitors in that class. 5th place in class will be awarded if there are 15 or more competitors in that class.​

​

**A Category (Tactical, Female, Junior, Senior, Military/LEO) must have at least 2 competitors before a trophy is awarded for that title.​

Unfortunately I don't expect PRS to become large enough for a change like this to happen, at least not for quite a while. There's currently no real incentive for the series to make a change, especially one that would place more of a burden on the MDs (additional trophies to purchase and a more complicated awards ceremony) and probably be met with severe opposition from some of the folks classed as Pro.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

One of the problems is trophy cost. They are already required by PRS to pay and provide like 14 trophies per 2 Day national match. Some matches get less than 100 people. We dont want this to become a watered down participation trophy (which it already is for some classes) and the cost would be prohibitive to add like 12 more trophies.

Trophies need to be ordered way in advance as well. So you cant really plan for participation by class that far out.

 

[Birddog6424]

Im not aware of anyone cleaning a 2 day PRS centee fire match. I think someone did a club 1 day match, full clean, but thats about all ive heard of.
People cleaned a NRL22 match.. admittedly they are a 6 stage half day match.

Austin cleaned this entire match put on by Prentice last year. This was an AG Cup match and a Qualifier.! Its supposed to be one of the hardest matches in the nation! The top 68 shooters got a 90% or better score!! Super unacceptable from an MD perspective.

These guys all got a huge leg up in the points race by attending this match. 68th place at my Pro Series Qualifier last year got a 64%. And it was the highest scoring match in 5 years at Parma with zero wind on Sunday. 68th place at the Hornady PRC AG Cup/Qualifier was 72%.

These kinda matches need to go away. Throwing meatball matches because it pads your shooter numbers at the cost of a level playing field just isn't fair.

https://practiscore.com/results/html/d3cd2fb8-617d-49a9-9e47-c2564b89b204?page=matchCombined

 

[Mormegil87]

Austin cleaned this entire match put on by Prentice last year. This was an AG Cup match and a Qualifier.! Its supposed to be one of the hardest matches in the nation! The top 68 shooters got a 90% or better score!! Super unacceptable from an MD perspective.

These guys all got a huge leg up in the points race by attending this match. 68th place at my Pro Series Qualifier last year got a 64%. And it was the highest scoring match in 5 years at Parma with zero wind on Sunday. 68th place at the Hornady PRC AG Cup/Qualifier was 72%.

These kinda matches need to go away. Throwing meatball matches because it pads your shooter numbers at the cost of a level playing field just isn't fair.

https://practiscore.com/results/html/d3cd2fb8-617d-49a9-9e47-c2564b89b204?page=matchCombined

At some point there has to be a balance. If I were a match director if I had to choose between appeasing the top 20 or 25 versus making sure the midpack is enjoying their weekend, that choice is an easy one. On the flip side of that coin, I wouldn't be applying to have an AG Cup match and 1 mil wide targets is definitely swinging the pendulum too far in one direction.

As for the Class system and handing out trophies for 1-5 for each class. It seems a little excessive and another 12 or so trophies to hand out is just another expense for MDs. I do think the PRS needs to make it easier to track and compare your scores with others in your class.

 

[lash]

…I do think the PRS needs to make it easier to track and compare your scores with others in your class.

I think that is the next logical step after creating levels of achievement. It shouldn’t be that hard to do now that they are already classifying the levels.

 

[Mormegil87]

I think that is the next logical step after creating levels of achievement. It shouldn’t be that hard to do now that they are already classifying the levels.

I think the next step is bringing the classes to the regional level.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

One of the issues is the top 30-40 regional shooters are also shooting national matches. There is a ton of crossover.

I do think we need a better, more transparent ranking. There is a ton of stuff that can be done with the data like Sheldon does.

 

[Mormegil87]

One of the issues is the top 30-40 regional shooters are also shooting national matches. There is a ton of crossover.

I do think we need a better, more transparent ranking. There is a ton of stuff that can be done with the data like Sheldon does.

When Ken was our local club director he and I talked about doing a class system for our local club. I did an initial ranking off of some arbitrary percentages based on score. We never pursued it for multiple reasons but maybe there's more appeal at the Regional level.

 

[KnowNothing256]

WYCO PRL has a class system that they implemented a few years back; it sounded pretty reasonable both in effectiveness and in simplicity.

About - WYCO PRL

About Wyco WYCO PRL is a precision rifle league local to the Front Range area. The league includes five independent monthly one-day matches in Laramie Wyoming, Cheyenne Wyoming, N.O.C.O. at Pawnee, Colorado Springs, and Rawlins Wyoming. WYCO was created by the two coolest guys in PRS: Jesse...

wycoprl.com

 

[ironpony52]

I shoot I am never going to be the best. The person that taught me was a shooter that put in years of training, daily. He could show up at a match, pick up any gun there and win. People today want instant gratification, no work involved by them.
You want to be the best you have to put in insane amounts of time, then money.
I actually picked up a sponsor for 2 years and was able to put in more time, I am not going to be a champion. I do not have the "piece" that gets you there.
Equipment is part of the equation.
I remember many times going to the range with XXXX and someone complains their gun wasn't good enough. He would offer help then shoot their gun perfectly. Nope not the equipment.
IMO 99% of people can not outshoot the gun even a stock gun.

EDIT: thought we could go to a spec series like NASCAR or something. Everyone gets the exact same gun form one supplier. Or one gun is range supplied and everyone shoots that gun.

 

[lash]

I shoot I am never going to be the best. The person that taught me was a shooter that put in years of training, daily. He could show up at a match, pick up any gun there and win. People today want instant gratification, no work involved by them.
You want to be the best you have to put in insane amounts of time, then money.
I actually picked up a sponsor for 2 years and was able to put in more time, I am not going to be a champion. I do not have the "piece" that gets you there.
Equipment is part of the equation.
I remember many times going to the range with XXXX and someone complains their gun wasn't good enough. He would offer help then shoot their gun perfectly. Nope not the equipment.
IMO 99% of people can not outshoot the gun even a stock gun.

EDIT: thought we could go to a spec series like NASCAR or something. Everyone gets the exact same gun form one supplier. Or one gun is range supplied and everyone shoots that gun.

Nope.

 

[Rob01]

EDIT: thought we could go to a spec series like NASCAR or something. Everyone gets the exact same gun form one supplier. Or one gun is range supplied and everyone shoots that gun.

Been tried. Won’t work long term.