Newbie Asks: Why do you say the Production (Rifle) Division is a Joke?

[TechPilot]

As you may know, I'll be participating in my first match (Gadsden) on Feb 24th. Thanks to all of you who have given me plenty of advice this week, I really appreciate it!

I'll be "dancing with the girl that brought me there"...in that I'll be shooting my GAP Impact (hunting) rifle in 6.5 PRC. It's heavy, does the job, and I can't afford another cool looking tactical rifle with every possible rail and attachment right now.

I've read a few threads where the Production rifle Division is seen as a joke, but I don't understand why. Is it just that the higher-end rifles and optics are that much more precise than using a sub-$3,000 and sub-$2,500 scope? After I first read the rules it seemed to me that it would be more of a challenge to use production equipment - as if to level the playing field for the match.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. Thanks!

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

There is nothing wrong with production class, and it sets a cap on your cost for the rifle and optics. Be aware of the cost for the optics, too, and that it is MSRP, not what you actually pay or street price.

 

[ToddKS]

The common criticism of the Production division in PRS is that the rifles being used (and allowed under the rules) are not what most people would consider a "production" rifle.

 

[The4GunGuy]

Nothing wrong with production division...go, have fun, LEARN, and hit what you can.

 

[TechPilot]

The common criticism of the Production division in PRS is that the rifles being used (and allowed under the rules) are not what most people would consider a "production" rifle.

Todd, are you saying that they have typically been modified beyond recognition?

 

[KnowNothing256]

Todd, are you saying that they have typically been modified beyond recognition?

No, he's more suggesting that they are very close to what a custom rifle would look like: the cheaper ends of what someone doing a custom build would put together. So things like an MPA BA Comp chassis, an Origin or Solus or other action in the $7-900 range, a TriggerTech Primary, and a PVA barrel. All quality components, but not really premium components, put together by a company who shaves a couple hundred bucks off what it'd cost to put it together yourself, then they say it's in the same competition category as a Savage 110.

 

[lash]

No, he's more suggesting that they are very close to what a custom rifle would look like: the cheaper ends of what someone doing a custom build would put together. So things like an MPA BA Comp chassis, an Origin or Solus or other action in the $7-900 range, a TriggerTech Primary, and a PVA barrel. All quality components, but not really premium components, put together by a company who shaves a couple hundred bucks off what it'd cost to put it together yourself, then they say it's in the same competition category as a Savage 110.

True. Like every other shooting sport with various classes and divisions, manufacturers will step up to offer something with possible advantages while still meeting the requirements of that class/division.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Production division as it sits is an absolute joke. Anyone that doesn’t think so has a vested interest or just not being realistic. Reason being top guys are essentially shooting budget customs and your new guys with a Ruger RPR or Tikka Tac A1 etc can’t compete.

You take 2 new guys of equal skill.
Shooter A) with a GAP PPR or MPA prod rifle in 6 Dasher
Shooter B) RPR in 6.5 creed

I know who wins that based on a better rifle with a better chassis and better cartridge.

I have a CDG action in 6.5 Creed and I have a Matrix Pro chassis. If I bolt them together that’s their advertised Prod class gun, but mine isn’t prod class because what? They didn’t chamber my barrel?
I shoot that config in open class. It’s a full blown custom.

And where do we pick these arbitrary ass numbers of $3k for rifle and $2.5k for scope? Makes no sense. An ATX is more a production than the GAP PPR, but because it costs more it doesn’t count?

The new PRS AUS rules are a good start to a new Prod class.

I’m all for innovation and I do like what certain manufacturers are brining to the table within the class rules. And trust me I get it, play the game until the rules change. But the rules needed to be changed a long time ago.

 

[beetroot]

Production division as it sits is an absolute joke. Anyone that doesn’t think so has a vested interest or just not being realistic. Reason being top guys are essentially shooting budget customs and your new guys with a Ruger RPR or Tikka Tac A1 etc can’t compete.

You take 2 new guys of equal skill.
Shooter A) with a GAP PPR or MPA prod rifle in 6 Dasher
Shooter B) RPR in 6.5 creed

I know who wins that based on a better rifle with a better chassis and better cartridge.

I have a CDG action in 6.5 Creed and I have a Matrix Pro chassis. If I bolt them together that’s their advertised Prod class gun, but mine isn’t prod class because what? They didn’t chamber my barrel?
I shoot that config in open class. It’s a full blown custom.

And where do we pick these arbitrary ass numbers of $3k for rifle and $2.5k for scope? Makes no sense. An ATX is more a production than the GAP PPR, but because it costs more it doesn’t count?

The new PRS AUS rules are a good start to a new Prod class. View attachment 8344506View attachment 8344508

I’m all for innovation and I do like what certain manufacturers are brining to the table within the class rules. And trust me I get it, play the game until the rules change. But the rules needed to be changed a long time ago.

I don't see a price limit, so I guess an AT-X is a production class rifle.

 

[lash]

Production division as it sits is an absolute joke. Anyone that doesn’t think so has a vested interest or just not being realistic. Reason being top guys are essentially shooting budget customs and your new guys with a Ruger RPR or Tikka Tac A1 etc can’t compete.

You take 2 new guys of equal skill.
Shooter A) with a GAP PPR or MPA prod rifle in 6 Dasher
Shooter B) RPR in 6.5 creed

I know who wins that based on a better rifle with a better chassis and better cartridge.

I have a CDG action in 6.5 Creed and I have a Matrix Pro chassis. If I bolt them together that’s their advertised Prod class gun, but mine isn’t prod class because what? They didn’t chamber my barrel?
I shoot that config in open class. It’s a full blown custom.

And where do we pick these arbitrary ass numbers of $3k for rifle and $2.5k for scope? Makes no sense. An ATX is more a production than the GAP PPR, but because it costs more it doesn’t count?

The new PRS AUS rules are a good start to a new Prod class. View attachment 8344506View attachment 8344508

I’m all for innovation and I do like what certain manufacturers are brining to the table within the class rules. And trust me I get it, play the game until the rules change. But the rules needed to be changed a long time ago.

All of this is based upon the assumption that a new guy shooting in any class should have the same chance to win as the accomplished and well practiced shooter. If anybody ever thinks that there needs to be rules to make it so that Joe Blow new guy can just walk in and have the same chance of winning, then they are completely disillusioned and their expectations are misplaced.

It’s a competition and as such will always take skill and competence to win. The production class is essentially there to encourage those that are feeling that in order to even play, they have to have a $10K rig.

 

[Covertnoob5]

I don't see a price limit, so I guess an AT-X is a production class rifle.

Correct. In PRS Australia it is. As it should be in the US.

 

[Sheldon N]

I wouldn't call production class a joke, but there are reasons I wouldn't want to shoot it and why I'd encourage new shooters to just focus on open class unless they already owned a production rifle.

• It's a small pool of shooters. In the pro series there were roughly 50 production shooters compared to roughly 1000 in open class last year.
• The mix of shooters is a bit off-balance, consisting of ~5 very good sponsored shooters representing a company's product and the rest being people who happened to own a production rifle or who wanted to try their hand at winning a trophy in a smaller pond.
• Most club matches don't give out production trophies or recognize production class at the match, and there are very few production shooters competing for the regional season production championship. (Our region has just 3 shooters right now)
• This sport is mainly a skill game, and many of the current production rifles are no handicap at all compared to open rifles. A MPA or GAP production rifle in 6 Dasher will shoot the same score as an MPA or GAP open rifle in 6 Dasher in the hands of the same shooter.
• The issue of "cost savings" of production class is a bit misleading, once you figure in all the costs of the sport and shooting matches. Buying all the gear and shooting a full pro-season might cost you $15k, is it really that different if you shoot production and the cost was $12,500?

Just show up and shoot with what you have, and judge your performance against your peers or your own personal goals as you progress.

 

[Covertnoob5]

All of this is based upon the assumption that a new guy shooting in any class should have the same chance to win as the accomplished and well practiced shooter. If anybody ever thinks that there needs to be rules to make it so that Joe Blow new guy can just walk in and have the same chance of winning, then they are completely disillusioned and their expectations are misplaced.

It’s a competition and as such will always take skill and competence to win. The production class is essentially there to encourage those that are feeling that in order to even play, they have to have a $10K rig.

I agree it shouldn’t be an easy way for Joe blow to get a trophy but as it sits it’s an easy way for a pro to get a trophy. Based on my finishes last season I would’ve won production in 3 national matches had I shot the exact same score as I did in open because either no one else shot prod or they were complete newbs who didn’t do well in general.

Production class should be for guys that bring what they have. And guns readily available at retailers like an RPR, Tac A1, ATX, etc. Not a budget custom build. Shoot in open. Either way a new guy is gonna finish 230th shooting open or prod. But if prod class doesn’t allow pro shooters and makes it so you have to manufacture a certain amount of guns per year to qualify then it’ll round things out a bit more.
NRLH has done this and I think it works so far.

 

[gDP]

I got my first ever gun Aug 2022 and it was a Delta 5 Pro. I got it with the purpose of competing in PRS (before I knew it was production class). Despite it being my first season and being a terrible shooter, I still won 2/3 Pro Series matches in Production and was invited to the Finale.

In my experience, the only real approach to the Production class is to buy the new MPA Matrix Pro PMR because it is a custom rifle with a "Production" tag on it. The rifle is in the brand new Matrix Pro, it has a 4oz trigger, and you can get it chambered in 6 Dasher, GT, Creedmoor, and hell even 6 XC!

The new price change from 2.5k to 3k was made specifically for MPA's rifle and puts all the others at a disadvantage, unfortunately.

 

[iceng]

Production division as it sits is an absolute joke. Anyone that doesn’t think so has a vested interest or just not being realistic. Reason being top guys are essentially shooting budget customs and your new guys with a Ruger RPR or Tikka Tac A1 etc can’t compete.

You take 2 new guys of equal skill.
Shooter A) with a GAP PPR or MPA prod rifle in 6 Dasher
Shooter B) RPR in 6.5 creed

I know who wins that based on a better rifle with a better chassis and better cartridge.

I have a CDG action in 6.5 Creed and I have a Matrix Pro chassis. If I bolt them together that’s their advertised Prod class gun, but mine isn’t prod class because what? They didn’t chamber my barrel?
I shoot that config in open class. It’s a full blown custom.

And where do we pick these arbitrary ass numbers of $3k for rifle and $2.5k for scope? Makes no sense. An ATX is more a production than the GAP PPR, but because it costs more it doesn’t count?

The new PRS AUS rules are a good start to a new Prod class. View attachment 8344506View attachment 8344508

I’m all for innovation and I do like what certain manufacturers are brining to the table within the class rules. And trust me I get it, play the game until the rules change. But the rules needed to be changed a long time ago.

Hahah no they are not, they are a joke.

Having AI or MPA rifles in production class is stupid. Its a gear race with money, nothing else.

Theres CLEAR reasons this is bad, which im not going to discuss publicly, but the long and short of it should be:
Production rifle + production ammo.

You want 6bra in australia ? Good luck with that.

 

[gDP]

Hahah no they are not, they are a joke.

Having AI or MPA, or even victrix rifles in production class is stupid. Its a gear race with money, nothing else.

Theres CLEAR reasons this is bad, which im not going to discuss publicly, but the long and short of it should be:
Production rifle + production ammo.

You want 6bra in australia ? Good luck with that.

Edit: wrong post

 

[iceng]

Why not do away with production class all together ?

This isnt 24hr suzuka with multiple classes running the same time, and if it must be, production gun + production (of a gunshop shelf) ammo. Simple. It sorts multiple issues.

Palma fclass does it dont they ? Controlled ammo ? Puts it down to shooter skill rather than the shooters wallet, trying to buy points.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

There's a simple reason production class is a "joke."

You can easily win open with a "production" rifle. Not just if you have a really good day and others have a bad day...etc.


Classes in any competition typically exist to level the playing field. I.E. weight classes in combat sports, or handicaps in games like golf and pool. Production class does not remotely begin to do this.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Hahah no they are not, they are a joke.

Having AI or MPA rifles in production class is stupid. Its a gear race with money, nothing else.

Theres CLEAR reasons this is bad, which im not going to discuss publicly, but the long and short of it should be:
Production rifle + production ammo.

You want 6bra in australia ? Good luck with that.

The MPA is a full blown custom. I’ve literally shot that exact configuration in open. But AI should fall into production class because it’s a mass produced rifle where the manufacturer makes all the parts or designs them themselves. No serious shooter is picking an AI to win at the highest level anyway. Majority of AI shooters are guys that want an easy out of the box rifle to shoot with readily available barrels. Period. The action isn’t smooth, the trigger is ok as best, and you can’t really swap anything out.

If you want to restrict production class to certain calibers as well I don’t think that’s a bad idea, but with small shops putting out basically custom loaded ammo as “factory” where does it stop? I can buy “factory” dasher ammo right now. Expensive but it’s there.

At least with mass produced rifles they aren’t getting the same “custom” treatment other guns like a GAP PPR are.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Yea, the MPA rifle really did jump the shark. It's a Matrix Pro, with a bix trigger, and a CDG action. Literally a combination that many open shooters would pick for their custom rifle.

I'm not blaming MPA. If it's legal, build it and sell it.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Why not do away with production class all together ?

This isnt 24hr suzuka with multiple classes running the same time, and if it must be, production gun + production (of a gunshop shelf) ammo. Simple. It sorts multiple issues.

Palma fclass does it dont they ? Controlled ammo ? Puts it down to shooter skill rather than the shooters wallet, trying to buy points.

Honestly, none of the PRS classes except possibly junior division, actually accomplishes anything.

You could get rid of production, tac, ladies, mil/le, and senior division and the attendance meter wouldn't move a peg.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Yea, the MPA rifle really did jump the shark. It's a Matrix Pro, with a bix trigger, and a CDG action. Literally a combination that many open shooters would pick for their custom rifle.

I'm not blaming MPA. If it's legal, build it and sell it.

If I didn’t run a ZCO or TT trigger I could’ve shot “production” with my open gun. It’s really a hell of a deal and I’m with you in that I certainly don’t blame MPA for putting it out, but the class itself needs to be reworked.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

If I didn’t run a ZCO or TT trigger I could’ve shot “production” with my open gun. It’s really a hell of a deal and I’m with you in that I certainly don’t blame MPA for putting it out, but the class itself needs to be reworked.

Same. I've almost bought one several times. Same as the GAP. Really good rifle for the money.

 

[iceng]

Honestly, none of the PRS classes except possibly junior division, actually accomplishes anything.

You could get rid of production, tac, ladies, mil/le, and senior division and the attendance meter wouldn't move a peg.

Exactly this. Completely agree.. thua why i was suggesting the ammo being the deciding factor.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Because it is a joke. It should have been a low cost way for people to be introduced into the sport and shoot with what they might have in the safe and learn.

Just because an MPA or other manufacturer lowers the price to make the grade isn’t how it should be.

 

[Ronws]

All of this is based upon the assumption that a new guy shooting in any class should have the same chance to win as the accomplished and well practiced shooter. If anybody ever thinks that there needs to be rules to make it so that Joe Blow new guy can just walk in and have the same chance of winning, then they are completely disillusioned and their expectations are misplaced.

It’s a competition and as such will always take skill and competence to win. The production class is essentially there to encourage those that are feeling that in order to even play, they have to have a $10K rig.

From what I can see as a total amateur and non-competitor, this hits the nail on the head. To get more shooters in the sport.

Can you buy precision? Not exactly. You can buy parts that are lovingly crafted by people. For example, steel is steel. What is different is, for example, you go to Bartlein and you can order the type of rifling, lapping, etcetera. Almost a la carte. And it will cost some money. You could spend more on a Bartlein barrel than a completed production rifle.

Then, there is the action, and then, of course, the time and tedium of truing barrel to action. The actual steel itself is not expensive but the time it takes to build each one with special tools is what costs the money. Just like what I learned from a jeweler. The actual gem is a certain price but most of what you pay for in jewelry is the cut of the gem and the work of the mount.

Maybe, for some guys, spending 10k on a rifle is "budget" for them.

But can one buy precision? I want to definitively say no, regardless of what has been spent on components.

It is always the shooter.

"The least accurate part of the rifle system is the shooter." (paraphrased) - Ryan Cleckner


In fact, from what I have learned, the hierarchy of error from highest at one to lowest at three is:

1. shooter
2 ammo
3 rifle

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Honestly, none of the PRS classes except possibly junior division, actually accomplishes anything.

You could get rid of production, tac, ladies, mil/le, and senior division and the attendance meter wouldn't move a peg.

I have always wondered why they do not have a "new shooters" division, maybe a category that you stay in until you move up high enough in the placings, at which point you "graduate" out of the new shooter division.

Maybe the sport is growing fast enough without that.

 

[TechPilot]

Honestly, none of the PRS classes except possibly junior division, actually accomplishes anything.

You could get rid of production, tac, ladies, mil/le, and senior division and the attendance meter wouldn't move a peg.

I don't disagree. I joined the Senior division just because I'm 62 now and just getting into the sport. From what I understand, you are all VERY accommodating to new shooters who are just getting started, so there would be no reason to put amateurs in their own division (which is the only other distinction I might consider in addition to the Junior division)... we learn so much by being in the mix with the rest of you. Can't believe what I learned in just one day from a Pro shooter. Very glad I'm getting into this sport!

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I have always wondered why they do not have a "new shooters" division, maybe a category that you stay in until you move up high enough in the placings, at which point you "graduate" out of the new shooter division.

Maybe the sport is growing fast enough without that.

If it was up to me, and in a perfect world.....there would be a division/s like this and also different targets. Shooters in said division would be allowed to receive help on clock and shoot larger targets.

The reality though, it would double or triple the work required by Match Directors.

 

[Emerson0311]

Many shooters that would otherwise participate, choke on the cost getting started while still being expected to pay the same match fees as the world class shooters they are classed with. Let’s put the white belt in the black belt class and tell him it’s a “journey”. Eventually the org will shrivel without outside big $$$ sponsorship.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Rule #1. Its a game.
Rule#2. Some People are gonna do whatever it takes to win the game at that game.
a. Some do it because they are paid by a sponsor with a Real Vested Interest needs to showcase their
product
b. Some do it because they want a trophy and will do what they have to do to win

Solution: Junk Production. The thought was, make it easy for the new fellow or lady. So, rather than try to make a product that a new fellow can afford which is truly a joke forget it. Afterall, $3K for the rifle 2.5K for the scope, 200 to 400 for the mount, 300 to 1000 for the bipod so at least $6000.00 just for the pole that goes BANG is not cheap in anyone’s book, even at today’s prices.

So rather than make a production class, make a beginner’s class. Have a set of larger targets as well as ”open” class targets. Have alternate shooting positions. Mod prone off of a table is a lot easier than some barricades. Require the newbies after two matches to join PRS or NRL and carry a score card. After three top finishes, in the top 60 to 50% of the match, be a “Promotion” to Open.

Remember…..The fun of shooting steel is shooting steel. Shooting dirt is pretty much pointless because dirt is already pretty much dead.

Final thought. I have learned through the years that the best rifles make it easier to hit the targets. A nice little hunting rifle, surely makes a good hunter, but the user faces a seriously difficult task. Think, trying to compete in PRS with say a Remington BDL or one of the nicer Weatherby Vanguards with a nice Leupold VX5 in 3-15x with a B&C reticle. An MPA or a PPR, with a decent FFP scope, makes it so much easier.

But, is that what production was really supposed to be?

Flame me if you must, won’t hurt because I’m still pining over Bandit.

 

[rothgyr]

Winning a division only gets you a trophy, right? You don't even get to walk prize tables any sooner than anyone else, right?

NF doing the PRS Skills stage sponsorship with a prize is interesting. I think if we had actual, predictable prizes for classes at the end of a season along with more stringent requirements, you might see more competition within classes. If I could compete with local buddies for a regional season for an AI/MPA Production Gun/GAP PPR, I'd be more tempted to drop my open gun and get something for production class.

Everything is built around open, and prize tables exacerbate the issue, since you walk by impacts, regardless of your class. It seems like there's just a big lack of imagination around PRS. I don't have a problem with the game of production, but rather the size of the classes. I've shot 2 matches with an AR this season and couldn't hit crap because of receiver flex, bad barrel choice, etc., but still have 200 points for the season, because NO ONE IS SHOOTING IN THAT CLASS.

I wish there were more emphasis on classes. I love my open rifle, but sometimes it's fun to show up with an AR, a heavier recoiling field rifle, etc. It's just not fun to show up with one of those and wind up 20 places lower than you would with your 25lbs BRA and nothing to show for it other than "well that was an interesting time. I miss competing against my friends."

 

[Sheldon N]

I have always wondered why they do not have a "new shooters" division, maybe a category that you stay in until you move up high enough in the placings, at which point you "graduate" out of the new shooter division.

Maybe the sport is growing fast enough without that.

They do have that already if you are shooting the pro-series 2 day PRS matches. The categories are Amateur, Marksman, Semi-Pro and then the Pro class. At the end of every season they reclassify you into a new class based on where you finished in the overall rankings. There are class trophies at every 2 day match, and there is a $1k prize check and a trophy for winning each division at the end of the year.

 

[Pete B]

If you are in this sport for money and prizes, wrong sport...... If you think your rifle/scope combo is going to be the most expensive part of playing this game to be competitive..... again you are wrong.
Production is a joke, that just gets gamed

 

[lash]

If you are in this sport for money and prizes, wrong sport...... If you think your rifle/scope combo is going to be the most expensive part of playing this game to be competitive..... again you are wrong.
Production is a joke, that just gets gamed

Again I’ll point out that it’s as good a place to start for your first match/season as any class for a beginner. Some of you all are the most negative Nellys I’ve seen.

If it’s true that the class you shoot in doesn’t matter in the total standings and it's also true that people just game it to the best of their abilities, than explain how and why that’s in any way at all less of a joke than Open.

Go ahead, I’ll wait.

 

[ma smith]

Production is a joke, that just gets gamed

+1

Production class is a joke because its stupid.

Its a psyop for stupid people.

 

[beetroot]

Surely the main issue is companies having ridiculously high MSRP prices that are 50% higher then MAP and often twice the price what people actually pay.

That forces the price cap to be raised to such a high level that all it takes is for GAP to sell a rifle here the MSRP and street price are the same.

I like the idea of allowing new shooters to have their own class that they can be competitive in. It's just that production class as it stands isn't fit for purpose.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Surely the main issue is companies having ridiculously high MSRP prices that are 50% higher then MAP and often twice the price what people actually pay.

That forces the price cap to be raised to such a high level that all it takes is for GAP to sell a rifle here the MSRP and street price are the same.

I like the idea of allowing new shooters to have their own class that they can be competitive in. It's just that production class as it stands isn't fit for purpose.

I must be missing something. MSRP and MAP haven't mattered in the past?

For example, when the cap was $2k and then raised to $2.5k......there were no rifles that were $5k msrp and $2.5k map. And there were no real rifles that were MSRP $2.5k and ended up $1500 MAP (just random example). There were just production specific rifles that sold for exactly what the cap was for that year.



The only reason price came into play much lately is when the caps were raised to 2k and then 2.5k which allowed places like GAP and MPA to sell "production" rifles at a price point where they were able to scrape enough profit to make it worthwhile.



So the "issue" wasn't MSRP vs MAP. It was/is a cap that's high enough that companies can use components normally reserved for custom rifles and call them "production."

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

If we are saying that somewhere like GAP sold "production" rifles for $2500 and the rifles were the exact same rifles they sell for $5k normally......that's definitely not the case.

They use specific components that are cheaper than most of their normal rifles, but are still above the threshold of what would be on the bottom tier of custom components. They also limit many of the options that would normally allow you to customize a rifle to what you want specifically.


So, while a $2500 production rifle from GAP will perform about the same as a $5k rifle.....you definitely aren't getting the same rifle you'd normally get for $5k.

 

[Pete B]

Again I’ll point out that it’s as good a place to start for your first match/season as any class for a beginner. Some of you all are the most negative Nellys I’ve seen.

If it’s true that the class you shoot in doesn’t matter in the total standings and it's also true that people just game it to the best of their abilities, than explain how and why that’s in any way at all less of a joke than Open.

Go ahead, I’ll wait.

Go ahead and wait big fella..... Why the fuck would I need to explain a simple opinion? If you can't grasp the concept, cool. You just have a different view to some others, it happens

 

[Covertnoob5]

Again I’ll point out that it’s as good a place to start for your first match/season as any class for a beginner. Some of you all are the most negative Nellys I’ve seen.

If it’s true that the class you shoot in doesn’t matter in the total standings and it's also true that people just game it to the best of their abilities, than explain how and why that’s in any way at all less of a joke than Open.

Go ahead, I’ll wait.

How is it a good place to start? If you’ve got an RPR you’re gonna get stomped by whatever pro showed up with the GAP or MPA or even another RPR so why not shoot open?
You’ll finish 98th overall regardless. Maybe by default you finished 3rd in prod because literally no one else showed up, but 98th overall is 98th overall regardless of anything else.
I wouldn’t go home feeling good about 3rd open but 101st overall. I’d be embarrassed to walk the table.

 

[Ronws]

How is it a good place to start? If you’ve got an RPR you’re gonna get stomped by whatever pro showed up with the GAP or MPA or even another RPR so why not shoot open?
You’ll finish 98th overall regardless. Maybe by default you finished 3rd in prod because literally no one else showed up, but 98th overall is 98th overall regardless of anything else.
I wouldn’t go home feeling good about 3rd open but 101st overall. I’d be embarrassed to walk the table.

No dog in this fight and I don't compete. I would go ahead and "walk the table." Exactly who is going to stop me and how are they going to stop me? Mean words? Facial expressions that look like they just ate a turd?

I don't disagree on the first part of your statement. But when it gets to the point that someone should be afraid or embarrassed to walk, fuck that noise long, hard, and dry.

 

[Covertnoob5]

No dog in this fight and I don't compete. I would go ahead and "walk the table." Exactly who is going to stop me and how are they going to stop me? Mean words? Facial expressions that look like they just ate a turd?

I don't disagree on the first part of your statement. But when it gets to the point that someone should be afraid or embarrassed to walk, fuck that noise long, hard, and dry.

Last part was more so for me personally and where I’d hold my personal standards too at this point in my shooting career.
Having said that I definitely have seen matches where they give a trophy for 3rd place prod, tac, gas gun, etc. And the person 3rd place in said division finished really low and didn’t even want the trophy. A lot of us don’t like or want participation medals.
If I shot gas gun or prod this year I’d still want to try to compete in the top 20 regardless.

 

[lash]

How is it a good place to start? If you’ve got an RPR you’re gonna get stomped by whatever pro showed up with the GAP or MPA or even another RPR so why not shoot open?
You’ll finish 98th overall regardless. Maybe by default you finished 3rd in prod because literally no one else showed up, but 98th overall is 98th overall regardless of anything else.
I wouldn’t go home feeling good about 3rd open but 101st overall. I’d be embarrassed to walk the table.

Explain to me how finishing 93rd overall is different whether you’re in one class or another? For a new person. Not for you as a superstar.

I still can’t figure out why it should matter at all to someone starting out new. Everybody here is viewing it as a seasoned competitor. So what?

 

[Covertnoob5]

Explain to me how finishing 93rd overall is different whether you’re in one class or another? For a new person. Not for you as a superstar.

I still can’t figure out why it should matter at all to someone starting out new. Everybody here is viewing it as a seasoned competitor. So what?

That’s my point. 93rd is 93rd so why even bother with production? Just shoot open.

 

[rothgyr]

That’s my point. 93rd is 93rd so why even bother with production? Just shoot open.

This. If you're shooting gas gun, tac, or production and you're not shooting an MPA production gun, you're just handicapping yourself, and you're not going to learn the game as fast.

 

[ma smith]

...you're just handicapping yourself, and you're not going to learn the game as fast...

this is the winning comment

 

[CaseFinder]

If it was up to me, and in a perfect world.....there would be a division/s like this and also different targets. Shooters in said division would be allowed to receive help on clock and shoot larger targets.

The reality though, it would double or triple the work required by Match Directors.

Frank has said this exact thing at his trainings I have attended and in a number of his podcasts that this approach is exactly what match directors should be doing. His assessment is the match directors have made and continue to make plenty of money to buy boats, take trips, and buy second homes from all of the match fees and any sponsorship agreements that they have monetized. That very little has been done to grow the sport above what he estimates is between a total of 750-1000 competitors nation-wide.

 

[Ronws]

I also question the need for this separate division. I think there is advantage in sink or swim.

As for being shamed, that is going to happen. That is what assholes do and the world is full of assholes.

So, go ahead and shoot, anyway. So many guys are afraid of words. I am not. Then, again, I am not afraid of physical action, either.

Pretend I was at an event and received grief from another guy. Other than telling him GFY, I will keep doing whatever I am doing within the rules of the place and the competition. Now, if the providers of the event or their security want me to leave, fine, I will leave without incident.

I get it, why have essentially what would feel like a "participation trophy." And what if a guy wins an open competition with a factory rifle? Now who is afraid of what?

Go ahead and go there with an RPR in 6.5 CM and an Arken scope and win something. And enjoy the hurt feelings and taste the salty recriminations as a gourmet spice.

"I like it, I love it, I want some more of it.
I tried so hard. I can't rise above it..."

 

[lash]

I’m not shitting when I say I know a guy who shot out a barrel or two in an RPR before getting into it and is now a sponsored shooter. Take that for what you will.