Official tannerite discussion

[GhengisAhn175]

PLEASE READ THIS POST BEFORE PROCEEDING!!.

Purpose: to discuss personal experience with making reactive targets and to share with others the experience.

Legal note: ATF link applies for FEDERAL RULES about BINARY EXPLOSIVES ONLY (mixing two+ separate materials).

https://www.atf.gov/content/Explosives/explosives-industry/explosives-how-binary-explosives

Read the above for federal guidelines from the ATF. Local laws may exist in your area depending. I encourage everyone to read this. It is actually clear, concise and to the point.

Lastly keep this thread debate clean about your opinions on the topic. It's already been cleared to discuss and promote safe usage. If someone decides to make for nefarious purposes it wouldn't come from here anyways (so don't talk about making primary explosives as it doesn't pertain to our intent).


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[GhengisAhn175]

Okay so I wanted to create this thread because I have been extensively trying to perfect my mixes. I have found that 95:5 ratio by WEIGHT of ammonium nitrate and aluminum powder have worked well.

Some things I learned by trial:

You can add a bit more powder ie (90/10) for a crisper detonation, BUT not required. However is you oversaturate with AL it will not set or even low order.

You can grind up the AN prills but I nor my colleagues have seen a difference with the naked eye.

You can use finer grade AL for a crisper det (500-600 mesh , 30 micron works just fine)

I have only tried grinding the AN and using 500 mesh AL as the finer ones are more expensive but maybe someone can care to chime in.

I haven't done FPS testing for this standard mix but would like to know what people have tried and recorded. I had successful with 175gr at 2400 fps and obviously 140gr at 2900 fps BUT... Does the grain of bullet matter to in order to deliver the shock necessary? (Ie 175gr at 2500 fps vs 140gr
At 2500 fps).

Also if anyone had tried a liquid mix (ie nitromethane). What worked, didn't . Was it even cost effective?

I started this venture because I wanted to encourage my younger brother and friends to shoot. Reactive targets are fun as he'll and you see results. Plus actual tannerite is expensive as SHIT



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[the once-ler]

No according to federal law a landowner may legally use small amounts of explosive on their property for various purposes like dislodging stumps etc etc. not sure if recreational shots apply and there is obviously a grey area there as well. Tannerite is a trade name for Ammonal which is ammonium nitrate and aluminium dust. I buy bulk AN and pyrotechnic grade AL dust, sometimes I spike it with a 10% mix of ammonium perchlorate which increases the velocity giving a "sharper" detonation. Ammonal is extremely stable and very safe to handle since it requires a supersonic shockwave to detonate it. Dropping it or hitting it with a hammer or even lighting it won't set it off.
Ammonal currently falls under the same category as black powder and is perfectly legal in states which have not specifically targeted it. Mostly cause DUMBASSES have done stupid shit with it. I use it on my own property RESPONSIBLY!!!

Educate yourself and be safe...!!!

You are f'in crazy if you want to mix Potassium Chlorate and sulphur with any fuel!!! That would be way too shock and static sensitive to even handle.
And meth cooks use Liquid Anhydrous Ammonia not AN unless they were to basify it and condense it into Liquid Anhydrous Ammonia which makes no sense. Research your statements before you post.
This is all about being educated guys make sure you know what you are doing before you do it. I have a background in organic chemistry in college.

The recipie you posted above is an ultra sensitive form of flash powder and is very dangerous.
Sulphur is used as a sensitizer in the Tannerite that will work with 22LR, pistol and shotgun.

Tannerite is:
Ammonium Nitrate
Ammonium Perchlorate
Zirconium
Alumnium

 

[the once-ler]

Whatever you do be extremely careful doing anything with sulphur. It has the potential to make any oxidizer extremely unstable.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Once-ler,
Ammonium perchlorate by 10% weight of the ANAL mix ?

Haven't tried that but might need to!


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[GhengisAhn175]

Mtn,

Can be purchased via amazon as a start but try local stores . You'd be surprised..

Hobby shops would have powder.

Don't need a purity, rather just straight ammonium nitrate (hint, cold packs from walgreens/mart/etc). Just make sure it says ammonium nitrate.

There is calcified ammonium nitrate but doesn't make a difference for tannerite purposes.


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[the once-ler]

just do a search for pyrotechnic supplies there are quite a few

 

[the once-ler]

Once-ler,
Ammonium perchlorate by 10% weight of the ANAL mix ?

Haven't tried that but might need to!


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Once-ler,
Ammonium perchlorate by 10% weight of the ANAL mix ?

Haven't tried that but might need to!

Yes but you can go up to 20% if you like after that you get into diminishing returns on the pitch of the blast

You can also experiment with additions of alternate fuels, like Nitromethane or even gasoline, as long as you have a grasp of what you are doing and know how to do it safely the sky is the limit. You do need to be careful if you are in areas that have fire alerts like places where brush fires can happen. This is why Aluminum is used mainly because it's burn rate is such where chance of secondary fire is extremely low.

 

[msalm]

So how about Potassium Perchlorate and Aluminum Powder??? 7-1 by weight ratio? A friend of mine that does fireworks gave me that info, and a bit of each and it works well, even with 22 rf. He did caution me about it's safe use (cardboard tube for mixing and taped into a cardboard container for the target....no plastic, etc...

 

[the once-ler]

Ok Potassium Chlorate and or Perchlorate and alumnium dust make "flash powder" which can be incredibly dangerous. They must be mixed by "diapering" do a search on mixing flash powder. Potassium Chlorate is especially energetic.
I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH FLASH POWDER IS NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!! unless you have a firm grasp of what you are doing, even a small static spark or impact and your hand or fingers will be gone. It is highly explosive even when unconfined.
If you are going to mix flash, do so in small quantities.
Ok imagine this: the old M80's or "Cherry Bombs" contained 3 grams of flash powder.
The current LEGAL amount in a firecracker is 50 MILIGRAMS!!! Making firecrackers with more than 50mg of flash is ILLEGAL!!

Also mixing any Chlorate with Ammonium Nitrate is very dangerous as well and will form a temperature sensitive blend.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

The original formula used sulfur, I am guessing to make it more sensitive to handgun (which is says its use is for handgun, and rifle). As opposed to what the current market has that is generally designed only for high impacts. With the exception of course of the rimfire blends. I know the copper oxide and aluminum mixture does work with rimfire. But it gives you more of a burn, and less of a bang.

 

[the once-ler]

I am not sure where you have got a commercial recipe involving copper oxide, Cu2o is not an explosive oxidizer. It is used in thermite but that is far away from mili-second decomposition.
You are quite right it would give you a Raufoss like burn

 

[msalm]

Well OK, I know it works well, an did in fact test the mix (about pea size amount) on an anvil w/ a hammer and believe it or not, I couldn't get it to ignite. You are right on the flash powder though now that you mention it. He does have his explosives license as he does hobby pyrotechnics and some pretty impressive ones at that. He did walk me through the safe way to mix and fill container. No plastics, all containers are cardboard for mixing and containers, put painters tape around the edge so there is no powder on the rim when you glue the cover on...it does a pretty great job. The mixing container is just a rolled oats container, and the 'shooting' containers are thick walled shipping tubes with thick cardboard (non-corrugated) end caps glued on with plain old white glue and taped with masking tape. He did give me a bit of sulphur too, which he said to use sparingly by just putting a tablespoon or less in the container after filling with the compound. They are only made before use and don't sit around at all so it seems to be pretty safe.

 

[the once-ler]

Well OK, I know it works well, an did in fact test the mix (about pea size amount) on an anvil w/ a hammer and believe it or not, I couldn't get it to ignite. You are right on the flash powder though now that you mention it. He does have his explosives license as he does hobby pyrotechnics and some pretty impressive ones at that. He did walk me through the safe way to mix and fill container. No plastics, all containers are cardboard for mixing and containers, put painters tape around the edge so there is no powder on the rim when you glue the cover on...it does a pretty great job. The mixing container is just a rolled oats container, and the 'shooting' containers are thick walled shipping tubes with thick cardboard (non-corrugated) end caps glued on with plain old white glue and taped with masking tape. He did give me a bit of sulphur too, which he said to use sparingly by just putting a tablespoon or less in the container after filling with the compound. They are only made before use and don't sit around at all so it seems to be pretty safe.

You mean your buddy is shooting flash powder? Why? It's really too dangerous to be used like that. That stuff scares the shit out of me. I lit a few grams unconfined on a sheet of paper and it detonated with incredible force

 

[msalm]

It's used in his fireworks...I believe it's for the multiple sonic boom rounds. He uses all sorts of different mixes and is a pretty consuming hobby. I believe he buys the aluminum powder by the 55 ga drum, and also manufactures his own blackpowder for his fireworks. It's all done in small batches and I know he does the blackpowder wet and sieves it for size then dries it on paper over screens. Really interesting guy to chat with and a very knowledgeable.

 

[eli polite]

I have mixed and used flash powder for about 10 years what was said above about AL and Potasium Perchlorate is extreemly important. I never at any point EVER have more than 20 grams mixed and I NEVER! store it mixed. and I never keep the 2 ingredians in the same room.

Personaly I dont see the need to get to involeved in the best mixture/ results for target shooting who cares you shoot it and it gos boom. stick to what is safe and proven. Stepping out side of those guidelines is what screws it for us all.

I make my own black powder as well and I mix it in a ball mill filled with soft lead fishing weights. It has its own little pit lined with 3cm granite 50 yards from any building I use this for my mini cannon that shoots golf balls.. my point here is I go to all that effort for black powder there is much more effort for flash. its not a game or something to be taken lightly

 

[the once-ler]

I have mixed and used flash powder for about 10 years what was said above about AL and Potasium Perchlorate is extreemly important. I never at any point EVER have more than 20 grams mixed and I NEVER! store it mixed. and I never keep the 2 ingredians in the same room.

Personaly I dont see the need to get to involeved in the best mixture/ results for target shooting who cares you shoot it and it gos boom. stick to what is safe and proven. Stepping out side of those guidelines is what screws it for us all.

I make my own black powder as well and I mix it in a ball mill filled with soft lead fishing weights. It has its own little pit lined with 3cm granite 50 yards from any building I use this for my mini cannon that shoots golf balls.. my point here is I go to all that effort for black powder there is much more effort for flash. its not a game or something to be taken lightly

THIS^^^
For recreational shooting or using it as a shot marker at long distances, stick with straight Ammonal it's safe and stable. Any Chlorate that comes into contact with a fuel or organic matter can become very volatile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txkRCIPSsjM

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Have any of you guys tested ANAL or ammonal detonation : FPS ratio? Do you guys think it matters on bullet size as well?

I think this would be important information to now what your limits are (ie why isn't my mix detonating at 800meters with my 308 load).

I'm assuming (not a physicist) that a 308 delivers more lbs per inch than a 140 vld would?


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[the once-ler]

Has to be detonated by a SUPERSONIC shockwave introduced as head on as possible. So as long as your round is still SS you should be ok.. I have hit some with a deflecting blow and had them spark off but not detonate.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Official tannerite discussion

Supersonic speed = 1,125 ft/sec / 343.2m/sec at sea level 68 degrees F.

I'm assuming this is for standard AnAL mix and not sensitized.

 

[the once-ler]

Well I guess if you want to split hairs and go on a research tangent you could try different velocities at different barometric pressures and sea levels to see what would cause a high order det. On the less scientific side.. Pistol, 22LR, shotgun=subsonic= Low velocity/No HO det... Rifle=supersonic=High Velocity/HO det
But still man if you are gonna play with sensitizers be fucking careful.

There are old pyros, and there are bold pyros, but there aren't many old, bold pyros.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Lol thanks. Just want to know what the limitations are and as far as explosives go id like to know everything I can about them as it pertains to my job.

Would be silly if I drove out some anal at 1k yards to realize it won't go


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[DocUSMCRetired]

I was thinking of running a mixture with a slight sensitizer, and then putting them on the backs of clays in target holders.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Doc,

My current method is to measure out by weight, put into a 2 gallon bucket with a kid to shake it up, then place into plastic 1/2 cup Tupperwares (that's the smallest size I can find and it holds a good amount). The bottom is flat enough to place double sided tape for clays or those paste it targets.

What could you add to sensitize it without risking injury ? I really just want to sensitize it enough for lighter loads but NEVER at the risk of great injury


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[thespecialist]

Doc,

My current method is to measure out by weight, put into a 2 gallon bucket with a kid to shake it up, then place into plastic 1/2 cup Tupperwares (that's the smallest size I can find and it holds a good amount). The bottom is flat enough to place double sided tape for clays or those paste it targets.

What could you add to sensitize it without risking injury ? I really just want to sensitize it enough for lighter loads but NEVER at the risk of great injury


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You don't like this kid very much I take it.

 

[msalm]

My buddy told me NO PLASTICS for containers, although that is for the stuff I was mixing. I only use cardboard/paper. A Quaker Oats container is perfect. Also, I noticed on all those links for the potassium clorate 'volatility' videos, it all required heat to initiate the reaction. Yes, precautions are necessary, but w/ caution, it doesn't seem too risky.

 

[the once-ler]

My buddy told me NO PLASTICS for containers, although that is for the stuff I was mixing. I only use cardboard/paper. A Quaker Oats container is perfect. Also, I noticed on all those links for the potassium clorate 'volatility' videos, it all required heat to initiate the reaction. Yes, precautions are necessary, but w/ caution, it doesn't seem too risky.

Plastic is ok except when you are mixing a sensitive blend, in that case you will want to mix in an anti-static bag. Chlorates are dangerous when mixed with any fuel and most organic matter. You can mix almost anything organic with PC and it will burn or explode because the oxygen atoms are so easily liberated from it. Not just heat, but even the smallest spark or friction.
Hey man they are your fingers, hands, face, house but just be warned from someone who has seen firsthand how quick things can go sideways playing with it.

 

[msalm]

Plastic is ok except when you are mixing a sensitive blend, in that case you will want to mix in an anti-static bag. Chlorates are dangerous when mixed with any fuel and most organic matter. You can mix almost anything organic with PC and it will burn or explode because the oxygen atoms are so easily liberated from it. Not just heat, but even the smallest spark or friction.
Hey man they are your fingers, hands, face, house but just be warned from someone who has seen firsthand how quick things can go sideways playing with it.

Point taken, so what else is there to use? High nitro fertilizer?

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Anyone have a good recipe for nitromethane mixed with AN? I hear it's just as safe as aluminum powder and could be had for much cheaper


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[the once-ler]

Well bud, your nitrate is the oxygen supply and as I have encouraged to stick with Ammonium Nitrate and ratios of Ammonium Perchlorate, as your oxidizer and you can play with your fuels, aluminum, magnesium, iron, nitrometh, gasoline, diesel etc etc, some will give you a sparky flash and others a more fiery detonation. As I also stated be aware of your surroundings for fire safety.
Sensitizers be careful!!.... Like I also said there are Sulphur, and sulfide compounds, zirconium hydrides, also you can use glass microspheres and other bulking agents that help propagate the det wave.

 

[softcock]

Well bud, your nitrate is the oxygen supply and as I have encouraged to stick with Ammonium Nitrate and ratios of Ammonium Perchlorate, as your oxidizer and you can play with your fuels, aluminum, magnesium, iron, nitrometh, gasoline, diesel etc etc, some will give you a sparky flash and others a more fiery detonation. As I also stated be aware of your surroundings for fire safety.
Sensitizers be careful!!.... Like I also said there are Sulphur, and sulfide compounds, zirconium hydrides, also you can use glass microspheres and other bulking agents that help propagate the det wave.

-
In my best Homer Simpson voice ... " Mmmmmmmmm..Carmel ".

very Informative thread for safety . a lot of what I read is akin to blazing heat & 'super' expanding gas/smoke with nitrate,sugar,iron . like the old school Carmel cook .
.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Just wanted to update this thread. Did some more testing with standard anal mix and here's what I found:

Parameters:
Altitude 4000 ft msl
Temperature: 85-90 degrees outside.
Caliber / FPS: .308 out of 16.5" barrel @ 2424 fps.

Controlled testing with
Set groups:

Group a: 250 g AN, 5% AL, no grind
Group b: 250g AN, 10% AL, no grind
Group c: 250g AN, 5% AL, grinded
Group d: 250g AN, 10% AL, grinded

The grinded mixes were grounded VERY FINE, but not fine like the 30 micron AL. (Used a good processor and resulted in a powdery form).

Groups a and b detonated with
No issues, with group B producing a slight more bang. (Not enough to warrant a 90/10 for price ratio unless you want to).

Groups c and d did not detonate at all, however
I decided to test a "sympathetic detonation test" using a non grounded mix and it seemed to produce a secondary explosion. (Hard to tell but with slow motion video and frag distances, going to say yes).

But why is this I wonder? My train of thought was always grounded mixtures yielded better results. Do grinded mixtures require a primary explosive ? I can't
Test this without going to jail so my testing ends here. Maybe someone can explain this on a scientific level as it would be intriguing.

Conclusion:
1. Don't grind the AN for tannerite mixes. Ain't worth the time, effort or headache.

2. 5 or 10 % of AL is fine to use



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[the once-ler]

Yes I have found that as well ground up prills don't detonate. It is believed to be due to the "bulking" effect of the prills, having small pockets of air between the prills to propagate the shockwave thru the material. Otherwise you would need a booster or like you said a primary then to the ground secondary.
Some have used glass microspheres as a bulking agent added to ground or moist/wet slurry explosive materials when blasting rock and ore but that would be dangerous for an above ground blast. 360 degree shotgun anyone??

 

[MidCitiesMildMan]

I won't post my recipes online, and stopped making binaries last year. But a hint I will share is to buy the .22lr kits from usa chemical supply. They work great. If you really have to make you own, and the savings is only ~1/3 in my limited experience, use a strainer to separate the oxidizers, and weigh them. The fine powder is KClO4. And you will notice the mixing bag they provide is anti-static.

When making "sensitized" ANAl, always mix the AN & Al first, then add in the KClO4. This way you never make flash powder. Personally flash powder scares me, and I went to great lengths not to make it.

EDIT: Grinding the AN prills is Internet lore. It doesn't work.

 

[HYFR91]

I am not sure where you have got a commercial recipe involving copper oxide, Cu2o is not an explosive oxidizer. It is used in thermite but that is far away from mili-second decomposition.
You are quite right it would give you a Raufoss like burn

You are very wrong about copper oxide.
Listen people; Be careful because these guys are complete ignoramus's, or they're trying to get you killed.

 

[n2ishun]

Reminds me of the time I was out shooting in the desert in California, BLM land...maybe 20-30 years ago ?
Saw a metal 5 gallon drum at about 300 yards out....took a shot with a 5.56.
Fireball maybe 50 foot in diameter erupted.....wicked as all hell.
Walked up to 5 foot crater to find a 50 footish circle of white residue and a heavy stink of ether.
Guess I found where someone discarded the remains of their "crank" wash.
Ah, the good old days.
Don't see that shit any more.

 

[HYFR91]

I am not sure where you have got a commercial recipe involving copper oxide, Cu2o is not an explosive oxidizer. It is used in thermite but that is far away from mili-second decomposition.
You are quite right it would give you a Raufoss like burn

[SPOILER][/SPOILER]​

No Bullets

70​

gram's activated tannerite with roughly half TSP of copper oxide/aluminum powder mixture of I think 3:4 --(well over a year old)--​

Dropped on top tannerite.
Poked fuse through lid, with little black cat BC101 attached and .
The Point is 1lb will easily kill you or anyone no problem!

 

[The D]

Derp, Tannerite fun. Yay!

 

[The D]

Derp, Tannerite fun. Yay!

I swear, I have all my fingers still.

My wife probably wishes I didn’t but I do

 

[rlsmith1]

Shot some tonight, good stuff

 

[The D]

Fuck me, why am I still awake

 

[n2ishun]

Fuck me, why am I still awake

Because you're not in bed, asleep.
Duh.

 

[Tempest 455]

I worked in R&D labs for a number of years with oxidizers and other sensitive compounds. We always used glass. Curious why Tannerite supplies a plastic mixing vessel with the White Lightning sensitive product?

 

[Maser]

I love the extended vacations I get from hearing people sperg out about Tannerite or any binary explosive for that matter.

 

[Emmasis]

I do 80/10 the coating on your AL slows the reaction