There could not, and can not be, any compromise with slavery. Its the original evil. One story goes thats why Lucifer rebelled. He want automatons. God gave us free will. They are non compatible.
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Open invitation to Wade2Big
- Thread starter 308pirate
- Start date
slavery? Lincoln says that's bullshit.
"If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." - A Lincoln
For Lincoln, it was about enforcing the centralization of federal power and overturning the Rights of individual states. Destroying half the country in order to mandate that union was the only thing that mattered. Lincoln, who was just an earlier version of FDR, was an egomaniac who felt that his opinions were more valid than all of our founding fathers. He had the power, so he tore up everything they had worked for and created something new in his own image. The primary check and balance was destroyed, at great cost in blood, and what came out of it is the federal abomination which we have today
For the record, slavery has nothing to do with why Lucifer fell. It was pride. And pride is more of Lincoln's own story. In his mind, he would use force to become greater than the creator and overthrow his creation.
Last edited:
I didnt say anything about Lincoln, I said slavery was unacceptable. Ill stand with that. As the the founding fathers, most of them knew slavery was wrong and freed them on their deaths. You say 'ego' I say he wished to preserve the Union. Had he not we would likely be speaking German, or Russian today.
Tough choice. Ill take his with the admission that things are out of control and hopefully, if unlikely, correctable.
Yes, Lucifer fell because of Pride, but according to some ancient documents I read nearly 50 years ago (I cant remember where so I cant vet them) the Pride came from disputing with God about whether we should have freewill or not.
Last edited:
Heres the KJV of that, expand on your thought? Im guessing its an agreement? Ya dont really want to argue with the big guy, LOL.
===================
45 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
In Paradise Lost, Milton ascribed Lucifer's fall to pride and a refusal to kneel to the Messiah. Other authors have ascribed it to pride based on Lucifer thinking angels were superior beings to humans (being made first, being made of God's light and not out of mortal flesh, etc) and refusing to bow to mankind as a whole; Islam also uses this theme for Iblis (more or less the equivalent character) refusing to accept Adam as his superior.
There's some question of whether or not angels have free will; I've seen arguments that suggest they do because, well, Lucifer rebelled, didn't he, and I've seen arguments that say they don't based on how angelic lore changed over the centuries from what the ancient Hebrews believed to what Christians believed with all manner of sects, local traditions, and influence from other cultures/religions folded in. But that could take all day to go into and not in this thread, I think. My personal leaning is that no, they don't, and Lucifer was created solely to rebel in the first place, which is kind of a bum deal all around but does make for good existential crisis and plot enhancement in literature.
Full disclosure: I am Calvanist. Actually, I make today's Calvanists look Armenian. With that being said...
in those verses, God is speaking to Cyrus through Isaiah. God is stating that Cyrus was created (predestined) to do what he was to do in life; it all had God's purpose. God is plainly stating (not just here but elsewhere), that being omnipotent, He creates everything, even evil, for His purposes and His purposes ALONE. Whether or not we know why is of no consequence. What I am saying is that bad governments, evil roaming the earth, etc. all are under the control of God. That's a thorny subject, but being omnipotent requires that this be true. And if you dont have an omnipotent God you may have a god, but you dont have GOD. What this means to us on this thread/forum: I strongly feel that something evil is afoot and very dark days are soon to be here. If this is the will of God then it would pay for us to consider where God is moving and what He may be up to. I have been wondering how much of this is the birth pains of larger events or if it is just evil morons who will be slapped down in time. I dont know yet, but I can plainly see and feel in my soul that something has changed in the last 10 years and it is picking up speed.
Angels must have free will, and there are specific reasons for that. If you wish we can take it off line as I want to respect the rules and the general wishes of the "no God, never" crowd.
Last edited:
The cotton gin and modern inventions ended slavery, not the government, shit the biggest slave ports, like the cosco of slaves, were all in the Yankee north.
“free the slaves” was a line used more than a few times, the English made the same claim when we fought for our independence, but no one says we kicked the queen out to keep slaves, mostly because the victors wrote the history.
I respect the rules as well but Frank and the mods seem to give us a bit of latitude as long as we keep it respectful.
I agree with what you said. The only way we can exercise free will is through making choices. Part of understanding 'Good and Evil' is making the wrong choice, metaphorically, eating the apple. .
No choice, no free will, no knowledge of good and evil.
Reading the last book, the Revelation of John, sheds a lot of light on whats coming. People have been doom saying for thousands of years concerning that, but I think that today we have the technological power, and population, to bring it to pass. Thats why I try to live with "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's."...As much as possible respect our gubmint but in the end looking toward the Almighty as the final word.
I just finished teaching Revelation, it took two years. I agree with you on the technology side wholeheartedly. It has layers, and while terrible things are in store I still see it as one of the most loving books in the Bible. Two reasons: it could have been left out and we would be left without that guidance, and second that it has the call of Christ all through it - those who reject it reap the whirlwind, but do so in the midst of the call to salvation being put forth. There are real life lessons (not just religious) in that.
Whatever happens to us on this earth will happen. How much of it is from predestined events or just our own stupidity is not for me to decide. I operate within the bounds of my morals and religion and trust that God is in control. That doesn't mean rolling over for anyone, btw. Thats not in the cards.
Never underestimate the stupidly of the people as a whole. I think in 2016 there was something on the ballot here in CA to raise taxes to increase money for education. While I am not opposed to a good education, there was nothing to look at the wasteful spending already taking place.
Before this bill was on the ballot there were teachers and other education employees out trying to gather signatures. Typical people outside of a grocery store asking for signatures on your way out the door. This girl was about 30 or so, claimed to be a elementary school teacher in the local area. She tried to sell me on it when I started asking questions. My first question was "Are you aware of how much of the CA budget already goes to schools?" She had no idea. At the time it was supposedly around 53%. That is a lot of money. I then asked her why would I want to vote for myself to pay more taxes when the "educator" standing in front of me wasn't even aware of how much money was already going to her people. I suggested she do some actual research before trying to ask others for support and moved on with my life.
I don't have kids and my tax money is already going towards something that I probably will never make use of, amongst many other things like the rest of us pay for. Of course the bill made it on the ballot, and it passed. There are countless taxes that are still on the books here. A has tax increase for the SF earthquake in the 80's. A "luxury tax" on vehicles over $40k, boats, etc...most vehicles are over 40K now. I could go on and on, but its pointless to do. I think all of us know how shitty the tax system is and how much wasteful spending there is. Then there is the whole illegal immigrant problem where they are drawing off the taxes we pay but are not always paying back into the system. That is a whole other topic.
Perhaps our own stupidity, or human nature, was predestined as part of our learning experience.
I think that this is part of the equation in explaining our imperfect state that we all can see in ourselves. The overall implications of this needs to be deeply considered. It validates the verses above as well as brings into the foreground the omnipotence of God. If we are imperfect and we were created by an omnipotent God, then it was intentional, as are the follow-on impacts.
When we can accept that it brings us to the point I think we're both at. I will do my best, but ultimately its all in bigger hands and all I can do is tend to my own behavior, pray, watch, and wait.
If you'd like. I don't think I have a lot more to contribute atm but I'm happy to hear your take.
Fascinating stuff. Keep it coming.
==============================This is fascinating, and when you really get down to it, somewhat scary. Some of us feel a lot so shit is about to hit the fan, and it will not be fun. Read the Revelation of John
Ya know I been working too
Much when I miss this thread
You don’t think this current .gov is
Illegitimate
Corrupt
Oppressive
Tyrannical
Etc
?
Flying roll is in Zechariah 5.
Ive always thought Isaiah 5:28 was about trains.
Isaiah 3 fits a lot of stuff on social media these days.
You are correct. Quick story: I was teaching an 11th grade Sunday School class when 9/11 happened. One of the kids in the class asked me if this was the beginning of the end. My response was that I didn’t know, but I know it doesn’t matter. If it isn’t, we keep telling people about the love of Christ. If it is, we keep telling people about the love of Christ. The Great Commission never stops just because we don’t know the future.
And to tie this out to this thread, there are a lot of political types in our country that need to hear the Gospel. Again. For their good AND ours. We have lost our True North in this country and that is the real issue we have IMO. They may not all believe, but if they were to operate within those moral guidelines at a minimum we would be much better off.
You obviously did not understand the very simple English that I used to write the original post.
?
The Fifth Trumpet
…9They also had thoraxes like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the roar of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers like scorpions, which had the power to injure people for five months. 11They were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek it is Apollyon.…
Human nature doesn't allow for that utopian dream....anymore than it does for communism
Here's a good one. The county that passed the wheel tax has now passed a rain tax. Yes that's right, a rain tax. It's only a businesses for now. Well because they said that it was only going to be on businesses. Basically all businesses in the county have to pay an additional tax for the square feet of their property. They said that it was for the maintenance of the storm drain system.
The people didn't understand when they voted for that tax that the businesses would pass it along to the customer. Gotta love how politicians use class warfare to screw the populace
And when the people in the village decide they don't like you and gang up to kill you, who you gonna call...ghostbusters?
Yep, even the ones that lived deep in the wilderness made use of a government's rules when they came to town to buy supplies. Or there was a dispute over someone trying to take their land.
Nope talking about when the no rules villiage decides they all think wade2big is an asshole and want to get rid of him.
You are talking about indirect effects, but that's where things get interesting.
If Lincoln had not preserved the Union, WW1 would have ended with a negotiated peace, probably in 1916 when the Germans were winning and offered fair terms. Western civilization would not have completely destroyed itself on the promise of holding out for victory as soon as the Americans could be hoodwinked to join the fight.
With an early negotiated end to WW1, the Bolshevik revolution would not have had support against a weakened Czar - the world would have been spared Lenin, Stalin, and Soviet communism. Without Versailles, Hitler and Mussolini would have had nothing to talk about, and no one would have followed. Without all of that, totalitarian socialism would be an unknown in the western world.
Yes, Lincoln and his radicals caused a great deal of misery and bloodshed, both directly and indirectly.
Yes. WWI gave us communism and facism. What I didn’t know until recently is that Germany financially backed Lenin and the Bolshevick revolution to overthrow the Russian Leadership. I also didn’t realize that the Russian Czar, King of England, and the German chancellor or emperor were all first cousins and were close. Sick stuff when you think these people conscripted millions to die for their greed with the USA following suit years later. The undesirables are always the ones sent to die.
I don’t value anyone’s opinion that has gov in their resume. A man has to sign his brain away to take part. You finally got a response you were fishing for. Happy now?
yes, Germany released Lenin in order to knock Russia out of the war so they could take all of those units tied up on the Eastern front, redeploy them in the West, and make one last drive to end the war before America showed up in force.
Yes, most of the royal houses of Europe were related. Read "Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War" by Pat Buchanon who lays out the instigators and their motivations. He blows up the cult of Churchill - another guy who along with Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and FDR get far too much credit when they should get blame.
You only found all that out recently?
That was kind of stuff from grade school history back in my day.
You know the whole story of the Germans sneaking Lenin into Russia in a sealed boxcar as their weapon to get the Russians out of WWI
How the children and grandchildren of Queen Victoria pretty much were part of all the royal houses around Europe.
How Wilhelm II's deformed left arm changed the way he was received by his relatives and how he related to them etc.
That was all stuff that you had to know for your history tests and such.
I'm assuming you already knew about the much earlier issue of where Czar Alexander played a significant role in the US Civil war, making sure it stayed just a civil war and not something much worse?
WWI was the first of the three great wars needed to bring about the new global order.
Pointing out that the end result would have been the same in wade2bigs "no police" world.
You apparently have made the mistake that I think what you say is important in some way.
I simply pointed out that even in your "no gov/no police" world, might makes right. And things will descend into mob rule and not some egalitarian society.
That it may, but this isn’t the problems faced today or anytime in modern history. Governments killed hundreds of millions in unnecessary wars and power grabs and continue to add to the tally. Let’s at least be honest. I wonder how many hundreds of thousands ours killed just in the last couple years and how many more is to come?
It’s hard for a gov man to understand, but we need far less government in the world and everyone that hires on for one reason or the other is only adding to the bloat and corruption. Now how to make this happen?
Better yet, go back in time snatch up a young Abraham Lincoln and his trusty axe then drop him off in front of this tree that had some strange fruit and tell him to chop it down in a hurry before some woman decides to come looking for a snack...
I think it's funny when someone jumps in and they don't read/comprehend the discussion. Then they have a black and white response. .... If you want this then it's right off the deep end!!
I think if you read through the thread you will see the consensus is that government is a necessary evil. The object is a very limited government contained in it's limited role. Getting back to a government that works for the people.
Most people here would agree we need less government intrusion in our lives but getting rid of the government would just create a power vacuum. Some form of government is needed to establish rule of law.
If humans were less corrupt, greedy and not actually human we would not need a government.
Not necessarily.
The police generally don’t stop violent planned acts, for instance 5 villagers decide they want to enact vengeance on oleWade, the popo likely ain’t stopping it. Wade will have to stop that attack himself. Now they might come after the fact and take action but in the moment, na. In fact in many cases the police tie the hands of people capable of dealing with things them selves.
I am not anti police or anti rule of law but what US law enforcement in many cases has turned into is ineffective at stopping the lunies. Yet the good men willing to stand up are also bound by those laws. The criminal nut jobs, they don’t give a fuck. The laws and punishment are not effective on the nut cases, yet keep good people from acting. Thats the problem.
The lunies are multiplying... fast.
The Government is bloasted, and needs to be deflated.
Seen the video of the little kid cursing and attacking the cop. Thats the problem. Police hands tied, anyone elses hands tied, obviously absence of decent parenting...
Interesting take plus the video
Last edited:
So the answer for human corruption is to hand over authority to the most evil, unethical, and corrupt among us while giving them a monopoly on violence to enforce the rules they seem fit. Anyone who wants to rule others is obviously sick.
The idea would be to dismantle government agencies, departments, and employees to the lowest point possible always attempting to restrict it more. Anyone who tries to build government’s power would have to go. I don’t know where this point would be, but I do know we are far from it. The main focus and a starting point would of course have to start with the Fed. There is absolutely no reason for the fed to have police authority or even a fraction of it’s regulating bodies.
Once again this is all hypothetical but most of us seem to agree with the notion that where we are isn’t good, where we are heading is worse, and there isn’t a government in the world that is represents it’s people. Somethings gotta give.
Are they more corrupt than the drug dealers whom sell drugs to kids? Are they more corrupt and evil than a pedophile who molests little kids?
You state they are more corrupt but they are just normal humans that were put in a place with power. That power provides a conduit for corrupt humans to corrupt the individuals in power.
You may call it being ruled but we need leaders, laws and a governing body to enforce the laws. Without that, chaos ensues.
Trump had a great idea to implement and enforce term limits and I think that could go a long way in diminishing some of the corruption. We also need to get away from a two party system.
Trump is an idiot who accidentally won election on wildcard promises he didn't want and ever worse could not imagine. The apparatus in US is so corrupt and vile that it requires a special task force of vetted individuals that would "al capone" the federal government. Now for that to happen legally there would have to be a spectacular change of hearts in Senate and Congress which is right up there with H.C. Andersen bibliography. So the solution will either be nuclear war or Civil war 2.0 when people of US get fed up in % large enough to force local States to form alternative to federal overreach...
Me personally i think nukes are in the future but hey lets get surprised with americans growing/finding a pair...
Me personally i think nukes are in the future but hey lets get surprised with americans growing/finding a pair...
Cocaine via CIA conduits from Panama? Heroin via CIA conduits from AStan?,
PedoJoe , Epstein, and the rest?
So all drug dealers work for the CIA? The rest? What is % of pedophiles in the government vs the non pedophiles? Does it mirror the populace?
Similar threads
