Range Report Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

[Lowlight]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: davide</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Davide, you say CB1 range is now extended to 3500 yards. That's good to know but probably worth noting that in the LB3 user manual it says "It is important to note that predicting accurate downrange values past the 3,000 yards/meters limit, is almost impossible."

3100 was possible...perhaps 3500 is a stretch too far. </div></div>

I agree... but this is done to have the possibility to write 3080 y</div></div>


I I Updated above, if you changed the zero range to meters, 90m zero, the meters will go from 2750m to 3000m so you can do 3000m or 3000 yards either way, you just have to change it in the zero dialog.

But the update fixes it as noted.

 

[one shot ST]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay,

So I turned on the kestrel, started the stream and it showed the same data as the kestrel Metric units on that page.

Then went into Data, it was Imperial until I just held the stylus to the top units and changed them and it changed the field conditions right to the same as the kestrel, it was literally 3 seconds for each unit.

You just hold the stylus down on the units above the field conditions and change it and it changes it to the kestrel units.

Only needed to do it once and it immediately read Metric across the board.

No Drama at all, </div></div>

I agree no drama at all....... but the CB1 kestrel interface was described " super "...

so I've to hit a lot of things to have correct datas..

Eaglet and .375CT wrote as a drama if you have to hit " calculate " in FFS..... ( older version )

and now in CB1 I've to do hit several field.....sure no drama..

but with FFS...I can choose Imperial or metric, regardlees of Nomad regional setting....

set kestrel in metric and kestrel field in metric ( only one time )......hit Start ......and I've all what I need .. better

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

I did the same thing, I only changed the one field, and everything else is the same, so the Kestrel is communicating without any need to hit anything again.

I didn't have to do anything twice, in fact I changed it and then just changed the ENV and it was done... I didn't have to teach it or change anything so I am not sure where the bug is ?

And really, if the Kestrel is reading in Metric Units, the CB1 definitely sees that, as I clearly saw it, then I go to the SHOOT Page, does it really matter if the ENV page is reading one way or the other, it is correctly streaming from the kestrel and really changing it was too easy.

Where is the gripe ? Am I am missing something glaring ?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

RIght here in this box

With everything else set to English units, If you hold down the Blue Bars at the top you can just change the ENV to Metric units while everything else is how you left it.

Just hold the stylus on it for a few seconds, you can change it.

 

[one shot ST]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

No Frank you do not miss nothing at all.....

but if everything works good with CB1 we have to do the following

hit Kestrel module
hit device
hit start
hit data stream
hit data transfer loop
hit close to came back to CB1 modules pages
hit ballistic
hit ( if I want same data all the fields are in imperial ) but I know could not be necessary, but if I use metric I want to see metric..
hit database
hit my selection to have the correct track ( or is already keep the last used in memory, I don't remember )
hit shoot......
and my be I've to hit something more depending what I've to do more..( canting ecc. ecc. )

with FFS.... I've my setting already in memory

hit options
hit kestrel meter
hit start
hit ok
squeeze the trigger of the PLRF cable and I've the solution

I've not talk about other datas we have to measure and digit in CB1 ... this with different instrument..

distance
bearing
angle

ecc ecc.

this is not with you, because I've seen in previuos topic ( FFS and CB1 ) what you think about these softwares...

I've more confirmations that if you have the possiblity to use all the features of FFS... on the field this one is better ...nothing more.

thanks for your time..

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

true,

That has been complaint as well, I want it start up and be ready, much in the way FFS is... no debate from me.

I use both, I use both unapologetically and think both are superior to the options out there. I feel CB1 is more for the Finnegan, guys who like to try, tinker and tweak and FFS is a bit more straight forward. Plus with the desktop solution guys can tinker with thoughts and ideas better, without having a good reference point. The programs has a lot too offer inside, you don't have to hunt for it.

Let's not forget, your PLRF10c at a minimum is about $4000 and the cable another couple of hundred ($350), so the expense to hit that button and run is considerable. Add in the Nomad, $1800 and FFS, ($300) you have a $6500+/- solution.

I run them both and I have them on the same unit so I can run them together. Once FFS is set up for that rifle, it is much faster to use. I have spoken to Gus at length over the speed you are talking about. But the library and other points are bit more robust, especially if you are shooting non-standard stuff or don't have the information at your finger tips. Show up and you friend has a new rifle with no data, and it's in there, not so with FFS.

In my thinking, they are two great programs that serve two different sets of shooters. Not everyone operates the same way in a "kill em now and fast" manner. Some people like to take their time.

 

[one shot ST]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

I agree for everything..

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

<span style="color: #CC0000">KESTREL</span>

Just for the sake of the good will people reading this forum I’ll repeat how the Kestrel link works in CB1

In the KESTREL module all values are shown with the units as they are set on the Kestrel unit.

However in each of the modules where the Kestrel feed is required, all the values are displayed in the units that are set on that particular field at the moment. For instance if in the BALLISTICS module the Altitude is set in FEET the Kestrel value will be displayed in FEET regardless of which unit the Kestrel UNIT is set on.

Davide, I guess you and your “mystery” friend need to learn how to use the software and you also need to be honest…just your previous post shows how powerful CB1 is to even deal with mixed up units.

This is really amusing…in your previous example you set all units but ALTITUDE in English units, that’s why you and your “fantasy” friend are seeing mixed up units. Are we clear now?

If there is something where CB1 is above all others is its ability to mix up units.

In order to stop all these false statements you wrote on CB1 Kestrel link…just set in the BALLISTICS module all your variables in metric units and that’s it.

Save that track and every time you recall it, all data will be displayed in your preferred choice of units….mixed up or not, your call.

If you cannot do such a particularly simple operation, don’t confuse others by writing down false statements perhaps to protect your business selling FFS in your country. Trust me, it’s doing bad to your reputation.

Fair play is what we need on this forum.

FFS is not even close to what CB1 can do with the Kestrel. That’s not an opinion, it’s a hard fact.

The number of keystrokes that worries Davide so much, cannot deserve any reasonable answer. I truly think he lost the sense of a valid review.

<span style="color: #CC0000">LICENSE</span>

For the price of just one FFS license I can buy up to 5 CB1 licenses…in case I a got a broken PDA I can still go with 4 spares. If my SD card is dead, well it’s easy to figure out that my shooting is done too.

<span style="color: #CC0000">CANTING</span>

You can illustrate yourself here on the consequences of CANTING.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/canting-rifle-long-range-accuracy-1.php

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/effects-rifle-canting-lr-accuracy-4011/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/angle/

I just guess it could be useful to explain, since you are the resident expert on FFS why the most expensive program on the market cannot account for it. Indeed the word CANTING is not mentioned even once in FFS literature.

<span style="color: #CC0000">HIGH-ANGLE shooting</span>

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3489224

"We started out with quick zeros and got some chrono data. Then set steel targets in the valley. After that was the hike to the top. We engaged targets from 250 to 950 meters, and angels up to 30deg."

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2564285

"Texas This class was well worth while. Shot out to 1800 yards today. Shot uphill 800 yards on a 21 deg angle. .4 change on my dope at that angle. A lot of new information thanks to Jacob Bynum. The valley we shot in was awesome , the view spectacular."

As well all already know, FFS even with its steep price cannot tell the difference between UPHILL and DOWNHIL shooting. This statement was confirmed by Davide himself.

In High Angle shooting, having to deal at long ranges, with angles ranging from 20º to 35º is not uncommon at all, indeed it’s the usual scenario.

If an Army sniper shooting his XM2010 has to engage a DOWNHILL target with a -30º angle the solutions could be

-25º lookup angle (Downhill)
1000 meters : -7 Mils
1500 meters: -20 Mils
2000 meters: -42 Mils

-30º lookup angle (Downhill)
1000 meters : -8 Mils
1500 meters: -19 Mils
2000 meters: -40 Mils

The point now is what happens when a program like FFS cannot tell the difference and outputs the same answer for Uphill and Downhill ?

<span style="color: #CC0000">+25º lookup angle (Uphill)</span>
1000 meters : -8 Mils
1500 meters: -22 Mils
2000 meters: -46 Mils

<span style="color: #CC0000">+30º lookup angle (Uphill)</span>
1000 meters : -7 Mils
1500 meters: -21 Mils
2000 meters: -44 Mils

To summarize, FFS will induce a Fire Solution ERROR of

<span style="color: #CC0000">Slope = 25º/30º</span>
1000 meters : 1 METER
1500 meters: 3 METERS
2000 meters: 8 METERS

I like to think no LR shooter I know can bear errors of such magnitude simply because the most expensive program has a very basic ballistics engine.

If you are a ELR shooter/LR Hunter or a Military sniper at any of those ranges FFS will give you a CLEAR MISS.

With CB1 you’ll have a CLEAR HIT.

 

[one shot ST]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Eaglet.....never ended story with you...

...

have you ever shoot to 1500 meters with a 25/30 degrees ?

canting ...kestrel.... price.... always the same songs..

Lowlight wrote what I really need to know, other people also..

for me is enough.....

In the Italian forum a person wrote in the same manner like you... .375 had the possibility/opportunity to open a topic about CB1 ...to explain better all the features..

I say again Eaglet...are you from Nevada or from Argentina ?
Are you .375 CT ?

In Italy some people use CB1, but at present time I've not seen nothing special about it....

Try to open your mind and listen what Lowlight says.... will be better for you, for kestrel module, canting...

FFS is for field use, CB1 ... NO.

Lowlight wrote something about the setup cost PLRF, Cable ecc ecc. our military units have ad used this setup, so they agree with FFS features..

I say again.......read was Lowlight wrote...

PS. you forgot the 72 ellipsoids.....

 

[one shot ST]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

about this " If you cannot do such a particularly simple operation, don’t confuse others by writing down false statements perhaps to protect your business selling FFS in your country. Trust me, it’s doing bad to your reputation. "

I wrote what I did..... Lowlight do the same things..

with CB1...several hits with the pen on the screen....

with FFS only a few hits..

people is not stupid ..people can try to do what I wrote....

read in this forum what people says about CB1 licence key... and more...

your line is difficult to maintain.... but if you are happy I'm happy too.....

now for me is bed time... 2.10 AM....good night

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: davide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eaglet.....never ended story with you...

...

<span style="color: #990000">Davide, that's what I think about you,

It never ends...</span>

have you ever shoot to 1500 meters with a 25/30 degrees ?

<span style="color: #990000">Davide, I'm 58 years old. There's a lot of things I've done including shooting from trees almost vertically, but that's another story.</span>

canting ...kestrel.... price.... always the same songs..

<span style="color: #990000">But true info for all readers...Yeap!</span>

Lowlight wrote what I really need to know, other people also..

<span style="color: #990000">Maybe so, but respecfully, what I posted was not just for you, it's global information for all those that want all the facts.</span>

for me is enough.....

<span style="color: #990000">Not for me, because your posts are not quite giving all the facts about CB1.0</span>


In the Italian forum a person wrote in the same manner like you... .375 had the possibility/opportunity to open a topic about CB1 ...to explain better all the features..

I say again Eaglet...are you from Nevada or from Argentina ?
Are you .375 CT ?

<span style="color: #990000">You win; no I'm not any of those, I live in Nevada. I tried to log into the forum you mention and it wouldn't let me. I tried to create a new account to log in and it wouldn't let me. I Don't even know why.</span>

In Italy some people use CB1, but at present time I've not seen nothing special about it....

<span style="color: #990000">That's because some times we only see what we want to see; but that doesn't take away the fact the CB1 is alive, energetic, and a great future ahead of it.</span>

Try to open your mind and listen what Lowlight says.... will be better for you, for kestrel module, canting...

FFS is for field use, CB1 ... NO.

<span style="color: #990000">Just a matter of opinions, CB1 is my choice based on a range of facts. Remember this, the days is coming when people will realize that CB1 wins, hands down, indoors and outdoors.</span>

Lowlight wrote something about the setup cost PLRF, Cable ecc ecc. our military units have ad used this setup, so they agree with FFS features..

I say again.......read was Lowlight wrote...

PS. you forgot the 72 ellipsoids.....

<span style="color: #990000">I'm getting old, you know!

Of course not! </span>


</div></div>

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Now, I'm posting...!

Since Davide is the resident expert on FFS I’d like to know how many steps does he need to operate his favorite program.

I truly don’t understand how this sequence in FFS can work:

hit options
hit kestrel meter
hit start
hit ok

That cannot be right at all. Let me explain.

How do you recall a profile from FFS?
How do you set the units into FFS in order to match what the Kestrel is feeding to the program?
How do you avoid the use of a “calculate” button in FFS?

You are clearly not telling us the whole story, unless FFS operates reading your mind, which I certainly doubt very seriously. :=)

Go ahead and count the number of keystrokes that worries you so much. You’ll be surprised.

Unfortunately you are again missing the whole point and basing your responses on false grounds.

It’s not important if you, me or my uncle shoot at +/-25º at 1500 meters. Or even if the rifle is canted or not.

<span style="color: #990000">It’s all about features versus price.</span>

In CB1 if I need to take that steep and long shot I can have the confidence on the final firing solution. In FFS I know in advance that’s simply not going to happen, since it cannot tell the difference of a positive or a negative angle. What a shame.

If a need to compute the fire solution from a canted position I can do that with CB1. With FFS I cannot.

You must admit that you tried hard to find big issues with the Kestrel module in CB1, unfortunately for you others showed you were wrong and off base. Read what LL said and stop trying to come up with false statements which are only good to damage your reputation.

If I need to report targeting information I have 72 ellipsoids in CB1. In FFS I only have one. What is the problem with that? Simple. High magnitude errors if your topo maps are not based on WGS84. A serious problem with guys operating on foreign cartography.

Bottom line: this is about features, some critical ones that could yield a serious aiming error.

<span style="color: #990000">Can you explain to all of us why we should settle with a highly priced package with less features and a lesser ballistics engine?</span>

Like you put it…people is not idiot and I cannot agree more with that notion.

<span style="color: #990000">With CB1 I can open the BALLISTICS module and have a working solution in less than 7 seconds.</span>

And when you say “I wrote what I did” you are forgetting a point…you did what you do because you don’t know how to properly operate the software.

You admitted that several times as well as not reading the manual. So your opinion on the normal and proper usage of a package is based on what? A couple of times using it?

No magic here. Both packages involve a number of keystrokes simply because there is no other way.

<span style="color: #990000">Can you explain why packages way more affordable can do what FFS can’t?</span>

People talking about CB1 licensing will just find that FFS license is much more expensive (for no good reason), much less forgiving and far from getting a free lunch.

And let us know where is the PC version of FFS that could eventually make the trick for such a high price.

I’m sure all guys in Italy running FFS are so impressed! :=)

I give you that at least you agreed on what Lowlight said on the cost of that fantastic LRF solution…affordable, sure, not even for our Armed Forces. I was impressed of you since you are a gadget man.

Do us a favor and disagree with hard facts, not just opinions.

 

[one shot ST]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Eaglet...... I'll call Marco Admin of the Italian forum to help you ..

you can log there, open a topic to explain all the features of CB1, I'll be so happy...

it's a simple forum subscription...the day after yesterday a guy from Romania ( Dracula vampire country ) has been a new one.

I say again last time..

only for one time, first time ( not every time ) I make a selection in my Kestrel, same thing in the kestrel page of FFS.

Kestrel C FFS C
Kestrel Km/h FFS Km/h
Kestrel Hpa FFS Hpa

same thing for metric or imperial.... do that only one time, after all the data are stored..regardlees about Nomad International settings

I can do a reset, a hard reset of Nomad, I can put the card in othe PDA all these settings will be always the same.

about profile, when I start my FFS the last profile used is available.....

if I want to use it, well if I want to use another one I've to hit a field R from primary page and I choose my new one with the associated primary bullet, if I want to change bullet I hit B .....always from primary page....

same thing for target and offset....

it's easy

R rifle
B bullet
T targets
O offset

if you don't use the software for a week it's hard to forget... this is what you wrte here.....ah ok you are reaching 60 years..may be this is your problem

( I'm joking..not my intentions to offend )

canting .... about canting, Lowlight and Cory wrote here a lot ... it's enough for me.

about calculate..... if I change manually an input for example a distance, the field change from blu color to yellow, to remember that I've to hit the field again..... yellow > hit calculate.....

if I do in automatic with trigger of the PLRF cable.....nothing more to hit.

from primary page I've all the data I need and with a simple hit I can change what I want.

I do not close a module, open another one, navigate between them ecc. ecc.

with FFS from primary page I hit PS and I've a recap screen for all my data..if I want to use a converter I hit PS, maintain and release.....I'll stay always in contact with my primary page.

I'll try to help you for Italian forum registration.. may be with your accurate explanation you can help who is using CB1 and may be some more people buy it...

I'm happy if will happen.... because one thing I've to explain better...

I DO NOT make money with FFS...I'm a staff collaborator of www.gac-rifle.com ... the owner make money not me ..

this is a hobby for me.. and my personal satisfaction was that FFS is the software choose by all Italian special force sniper teams, plus other units... and I've seen that FFS is used also by other Nato units because I'm in touch with them in other private forums.

nothing special some people use FFS, others use CB1.....

I've explained because I prefer FFS.... I also wrote that CB1 is a good software, but not good for what I need...

actually in Afghanistan same Italian units are using FFS, software and back up tables.....with very good results, this is enough for me.

in Afghanistan .. no need for canting, 72 ellipsoids or much more, analysis modules, recoil modules....

wrote an email to [email protected], him is the Admin of Italian forum, you can explain the problems you have with registration, and for sure him help you.

I'll advise him about it, and I hope to see you on the Italian forum.

I'give you an advise...make a presentation, who you are and what you did, you gain more points and reputations for what you wrote later for CB1.

open a new topic, for example Eaglet CB1 rewiev ...and start to explain CB1....

I'll be happy if you do this.

Thanks

PS sorry for my English I do not use a translator, because also the better one do a lot of error... in Italy the most of the people is not able to read, write or speak English, but it's better if you do your rewiev in English.. people able to catch CB1 features ( military units for examples ) are also able to read English.....

 

[Ariete]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Hi all,

I'm Marco, the Admin of TLD.

eaglet, are you have problems, please contact me, I'm trying to help you.

I am happy that the discussion made &#8203;&#8203;with the user .375, has stimulated Patagonia to make the update come out these days.

However, if you are confronted by more "gentlemen", everyone can benefit most.

For us to confront the "gentlemen", it means appear without "masks"

In Italy we have few data on CB1, if someone wants to show their "evidence" with the shooting experience ballistic with CB1, we welcome you with open arms

Thanks at all

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

I have to say, and I have said it before, both are excellent programs, the ballistic engines are the best out there, however there are limitations on both sides.

I completely agree, FFS is much faster and easier to use. In fact when I turn on my newest NOMAD it fires right up immediately and all my data is pre-loaded. It doesn't get any easier and from that one start screen I can begin working.

I think CB1 is more robust, but for me personally I don't use half the features. I know there are guys who like to fiddle with things, like to experiment on paper and this is great program for doing that. It's all in there, more than one can ask, and it's all really up to date and the accuracy is top notch. But it's a lot of screens to dig through, a lot of loading and lot of options that become overwhelming. If the choice is turn on, insert range and wind and press calculate, versus loading page after page, I usually default to faster one, I just need to the solution, not why I got it.

For me personally I think the desktop feature is great, it really helps that you can work the load home and then export it to the PDA, but I don't use Windows computers, so I am never on it. If you're a Windows user, then CB1 is a smart choice. For me, I like the chip of FFS. I move it from PDA to PDA, no problem at all.

Canting... what ?

Why do I want to input canting again ?

If I know the rifle is canted wouldn't I just fix the problem ? And how many guys that subconsciously cant know what the angle is to begin with ? Holding canting up as a solution seems a bit strange to me. Sure guys can demonstrate what happens when you do CANT, at an extreme, but that is NOT what happens in real life, people dont' purpose cant more than 5 degrees, so who cares what is shows when you do it for demonstration. The goal is not to cant or to set the rifle up so you won't. if you are canting it and know by how much, odds are you're doing it wrong.

Honestly in both program I keep the SD/Coriolis and all that stuff off, even shooting to beyond 2k, I never use it, most I have personally needed to add with my wind class is .2 anyway, I can figure that out myself. I know how I shoot, the computer doesn't.

I have asked Gus about a slimmed down version or a way to go straight to the "Shoot" screen without having to start over, so it's definitely been talked about.

People have different reasons for using ballistic computers, the end goal is the same, but speed to achieve it and they necessity to know the work behind it is different. A Soldier doesn't care how you got it, he just wants and it now, an enthusiast wants to know every details. Two different approaches to the same results.

Personally I would rather see guys using either program over an "app" as there are far too many downsides to programs based on Point Mass to compete with the likes of either of these.

 

[one shot ST]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

I completely agree again with Frank....

today I was speaking with Dario ( a friend of mine ) he is a CB1 user.... I think tomorrow Dario will post something about one of the latest upgrade... may be Dario did something wrong or there is something wrong in the update.. we are here to share info.

Eaglet please contact Marco to explain the issue you have to join Italian forum.

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Thanks for the offer to help me to open an account on the italian forum, I’m sure it’s great place. I just happen to think that not being it an open forum since it works “by appointment only” I rather go with posting here or at the LRH forum.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/

It’s a great place, with plenty of experts with tremendous field experience. And the articles section is great too, always being updated with interesting and in-depth articles. People like Blaine Fields, Gus, Bryan and many others post over there in case we need their input on many different subjects related to ballistics and software. And some of the technical articles are authored by these top tier guys.

As you may we aware of, 95% of the American forums do not require an account for browsing and reading them, perhaps in the near future, the italian forum could follow the same path and become a truly open place.

I think this debate is going the same way as the previous one we held several months ago and at the risk of being monotonous I still feel the same.

<span style="color: #3333FF">Some people will find CB1 a much better purchasing option while others will take FFS. Cool.
Some military units will find CB1 an excellent tool for tactical work while others will go with FFS. Cool.
Some users will find CB1 very easy to get along with while others will find their way with FFS much better. Cool.
Some guys will find CB1 very easy to operate while others will themselves more comfortable with FFS. Cool.
Some people will need the robustness of CB1 while others will go with FFS and never need it. Cool.
Some people will need a PC/PDA suite like CB1 while others will find FFS on a chip as enough for their money. Cool.</span>

But I’ll stand by my current criteria.

I like features and I like to have them at my disposal just in case I’m bored in my campsite and just want to play with them a little. The problem is the opposite is never true.

I like having the best possible ballistics engine running beneath my software. I don’t care about high angle shooting or canting being used with a high frequency or not. It just happens that I want confidence in the program yielding me the best firing solution when and where I need it.

I’ll decide later if I’ll use them or not. The opposite is never true.

According to Davide in Italy the troops are doing fine with FFS under real situations. Good for them. I can only add that for instance the British snipers took all of their “records” running a custom version developed by Patagonia. To each its own.

And I’d like also to keep this new (old??) thread as coherent as possible, which seems to be a hard objective to accomplish.

Lowlight did a great job with the right attitude by bearing an unbiased stance. Kudos to that! This only makes my respect for him to grow more.

In regards to the last update I contacted Patagonia and their answer was that the GPS “transfer” function was the direct result of feedback coming from some italian guy about a month ago or so, which I find as a nice proof on how Patagonia cares about their customers and most specially their feedback. They are always listening and that’s the feedback you’ll encounter through the internet.

If some posters do not mind, my advice to your friend Dario is to contact Patagonia first before posting something that could be misleading to others reading this long thread. The answer could be very simple.

For those guys in search of that elusive thing they call “evidence” my humble suggestion is to take a forward action and browse this and the LRH forums. They will find tons of “evidence” coming as long as from the last six years. What could I possibly add to this?

I can only agree in full with Lowlight standpoint on the “apps” and the Point Mass engine. Indeed I was one of the very first to post about this critical matter as having been demonstrated several times.

Best wishes to all of you!

 

[one shot ST]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Eaglet.....

the Italian forum doesn't works “by appointment only” ...

I've seen here you read my rewiev on that forum about FFS...

You have the occasion to write your rewiev about CB1 and much more....

why have you change opinion about Italian forum subscription ?

( if I've understood well your intentions )

The Italian guy CB1 user that wrote to Patagonia support is my friend Dario.

you are very informed about PB contacts.....

Eaglet, I wrote to .375CT...that in Italy we don't have the ring around the nose.....

..

and I say again...take 1 minute of your time, do the subscriptions for Italian forum ...could be a good occasion to explain CB1 features.

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: davide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eaglet.....

the Italian forum doesn't works “by appointment only” ...

I've seen here you read my rewiev on that forum about FFS...

You have the occasion to write your rewiev about CB1 and much more....

why have you change opinion about Italian forum subscription ?

( if I've understood well your intentions )

The Italian guy CB1 user that wrote to Patagonia support is my friend Dario.

you are very informed about PB contacts.....

Eaglet, I wrote to .375CT...that in Italy we don't have the ring around the nose.....

..

and I say again...take 1 minute of your time, do the subscriptions for Italian forum ...could be a good occasion to explain CB1 features.
</div></div>
Davide, I have been thinking about all these postings and carrying on, and I think that what I would like to do is start doing write ups or maybe training type of videos about using CB1.0, that would go from the simplest way of using it to more advanced users. Explain it in a way that the folks that email me asking for help can see and realize that the interface of CB is amazingly simple and it does make sense. I would just give them a link instead of helping them individually. So, you know, I'll create or use an existing website of mine and place it there, that way I would have full control to re-edit when updates come out.

Also, I don't really want to keep throwing my self in the Lions' den. I'm just getting too old for that!

Regards.

 

[one shot ST]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Eaglet... sorry you are wrong...

I'll NEVER interfere with you in your topic about CB1.

you have to open a topic for CB1 writing things about CB1.

the topic already exist " FFS versus CB1 " is closed.

you can write only CB1 features.. and not CB1 do this..FFS do this.....

write only CB1 features.....

in this manner people is able to understant what will be the right personal choice..

no lions.....absolutely...

 

[VKC]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eaglet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: davide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eaglet.....

the Italian forum doesn't works “by appointment only” ...

I've seen here you read my rewiev on that forum about FFS...

You have the occasion to write your rewiev about CB1 and much more....

why have you change opinion about Italian forum subscription ?

( if I've understood well your intentions )

The Italian guy CB1 user that wrote to Patagonia support is my friend Dario.

you are very informed about PB contacts.....

Eaglet, I wrote to .375CT...that in Italy we don't have the ring around the nose.....

..

and I say again...take 1 minute of your time, do the subscriptions for Italian forum ...could be a good occasion to explain CB1 features.
</div></div>
Davide, I have been thinking about all these postings and carrying on, and I think that what I would like to do is start doing write ups or maybe training type of videos about using CB1.0, that would go from the simplest way of using it to more advanced users. Explain it in a way that the folks that email me asking for help can see and realize that the interface of CB is amazingly simple and it does make sense. I would just give them a link instead of helping them individually. So, you know, I'll create or use an existing website of mine and place it there, that way I would have full control to re-edit when updates come out.

Also, I don't really want to keep throwing my self in the Lions' den. I'm just getting too old for that!

Regards.



</div></div>

Instructional videos would be awesome.

 

[comanche9]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Has CB1 added in the feature to where the Kestrel data will constantly update your ballistic solution?

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Comanche</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has CB1 added in the feature to where the Kestrel data will constantly update your ballistic solution? </div></div>

This is what I've got on this:

Yes, CB1 (PDA version) takes the Kestrel feed in REAL TIME to some specific modules, and the flow is updated at a rate of 1 second.

These are the specs as taken from the current User’s Manual

Kestrel® Weather Meters with Bluetooth

This module allows the program to receive and process, in real-time, the necessary atmospheric and wind parameters directly from a Kestrel® series 4000 with Bluetooth, manufactured by Nielsen-Kellerman.

Units are automatically decoded and parsed.

No need for the user to indicate what units is the Kestrel® working with.

Each module (ANALYZER, BALLISTICS and LOGBOOK) receiving the data does not need to change any units. In fact, the user can use the Kestrel® with units that are different of those set in the modules.

The data stream is sampled at a rate of 1000 milliseconds.

Multithreading programming for real-time performance and no UI degradation.

The user does not need, after pairing the PDA with the Kestrel®, to “select and try” any data port.

Detection and selection is automatically performed by the program.

 

[AIAWinAU]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Just updated my Patagonia to the new Coldbore Edition. Once again Gus has done a fantastic job.

Will post some pics later in the week of it running on my Getac PDA.

Cheers,

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Congratulations...

I'm trying to get my first simple tutorial done. I wish I could go faster.

Did you get the mobile edition or both?

 

[AIAWinAU]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

I picked up both the desktop & mobile edition, they really go hand in hand so well. I am truly impressed & have emailed Gus to let him know.

What format are you using for the tutorial ?

Cheers,

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tikkat3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I picked up both the desktop & mobile edition, they really go hand in hand so well. I am truly impressed & have emailed Gus to let him know.

What format are you using for the tutorial ?

Cheers, </div></div>

Youtube video tutorials... not as easy as I thought it would be.

 

[Steelhead]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Anybody know if CB1 will work on a Windows 8 tablet?

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steelhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody know if CB1 will work on a Windows 8 tablet? </div></div>

If the tablet runs Windows 8 RT, will only run programs downloaded from the Microsoft Store. In other words it won't run any of the programs that you would run in Windows XP, Vista or Windows 7. On the other hand, CB1 win run in the <span style="font-weight: bold">Table Top Windows 8</span> with no problems.

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Note: The above info. I obtained from Patagonia Ballistics since I know nothing about tablets...

 

[Steelhead]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Ok, thanks.

I guess with the advent of Windows 8, I thought maybe instead of having two seperate devices, running the different versions of Cold Bore (i.e. desktop and mobile), it would be nice to have one tablet to do both.

 

[Eaglet]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Oh, that'd be nice!!

 

[AIAWinAU]

Re: Patagonia Ballistics LB3 is now ColdBore !

Well mate - looking forward to it.

Cheers,

 

[Steelhead]

Originally Posted By: Steelhead
Anybody know if CB1 will work on a Windows 8 tablet?



If the tablet runs Windows 8 RT, will only run programs downloaded from the Microsoft Store. In other words it won't run any of the programs that you would run in Windows XP, Vista or Windows 7. On the other hand, CB1 win run in the Table Top Windows 8 with no problems.

Hey Eaglet,

Do you use the GPS features of LB/CB at all?

I have been trying to figure out a problem that I have with LB 3.0 using the GPS features. Basically I'm trying to get the mapping and targets tabs to work by taking real-time information from the GPS.

I'm using a Dell Axim X51v PDA running Windows mobile 5.0. I have both a bluetooth GPS and a compact flash card GPS system.

Using the bluetooth GPS I was able to get the LB mapping/targets features to work every once in a while, but it was very sporatic and I would always get "Detec Except" errors of some sort. I recently purchased the compact flash GPS and now I don't get any "Detec Except" errors at all, but I have never been able to get the mapping/targets features to work.

Using both GPS methods, I've been able to use the "Positions" tab features and have had "Excelent" reception, but when it comes time to use the mapping/targets features and I select the button to switch over to "Map is ON", I get the error: "Cannot read a position form the GPS receiver". Seems funny to me that I'm getting that error, as on the main GPS screen it is obviously receiving GPS signals just fine.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[MilDot1960]

<span style="color: #CC0000">KESTREL</span>

As well all already know, FFS even with its steep price cannot tell the difference between UPHILL and DOWNHIL shooting. This statement was confirmed by Davide himself.

In High Angle shooting, having to deal at long ranges, with angles ranging from 20º to 35º is not uncommon at all, indeed it’s the usual scenario.

If an Army sniper shooting his XM2010 has to engage a DOWNHILL target with a -30º angle the solutions could be

-25º lookup angle (Downhill)
1000 meters : -7 Mils
1500 meters: -20 Mils
2000 meters: -42 Mils

-30º lookup angle (Downhill)
1000 meters : -8 Mils
1500 meters: -19 Mils
2000 meters: -40 Mils

The point now is what happens when a program like FFS cannot tell the difference and outputs the same answer for Uphill and Downhill ?

<span style="color: #CC0000">+25º lookup angle (Uphill)</span>
1000 meters : -8 Mils
1500 meters: -22 Mils
2000 meters: -46 Mils

<span style="color: #CC0000">+30º lookup angle (Uphill)</span>
1000 meters : -7 Mils
1500 meters: -21 Mils
2000 meters: -44 Mils

To summarize, FFS will induce a Fire Solution ERROR of

<span style="color: #CC0000">Slope = 25º/30º</span>
1000 meters : 1 METER
1500 meters: 3 METERS
2000 meters: 8 METERS

I like to think no LR shooter I know can bear errors of such magnitude simply because the most expensive program has a very basic ballistics engine.

If you are a ELR shooter/LR Hunter or a Military sniper at any of those ranges FFS will give you a CLEAR MISS.

With CB1 you’ll have a CLEAR HIT.

Eaglet??? Can you tell me how this is so because I get the same distance weather it is an up hill shot or a down hill shot with my APPs and also using a slope doper,

1) maybe shooting down hill the air will be thicker @ 1k lower = 3 hg in, with the Bullet travelling from 26.92 down hill to 29.92 going from thin air to thick air would be the same effect going from thick air @29.92 to thin air (UP) to 26.92 so surely would this not be the same BEING just a reversal of pattens because the gavity would be the same, IE just to make it easy AT 1K =12.0 Mrads /41.27 Moa now add 30*deg +/- = 10.2 Mrads or 35.22 Moa shooting up hill and it works out the same shooting down hill.

BUT I SAY when I adjust my angle as if I was up 1000yds up a hill IE from 29.92 with my location / Station pressure now down to 26.92 I get an Mrad adjustment of 9.5 and 32.59 Moa so that is a differance of 0.7 Mrads but you have listed 7 Mrads and 21 and 42 should they not read 0.7 and 2.1 and 4.2, PLEASE NOTE I'm only guessing here that you forgot to add the decimal point between the numbers So I have'nt got a CLUE because I have not done the maths on them, (Sorry)

or maybe it stays the same because they are going up TO down and vise versa, Thanks mate I know this is a tough one sorry about that,


John

 

[Lowlight]

@MilDot1960

There is a gravity component to shooting at angles, and most programs just ignore it.

You have gravity working against you up hill, and for you downhill so technically speaking there is a difference in the solution. However because most always just use the Old Rules of Thumb, they have been taught to ignore any real difference as most don't shoot far enough or at a great enough angle to utilize the difference. (target size is usually big enough to absorb the difference as well)

But there is a clear difference between shooting up or down... we just tend to let it swirl in the noise. ColdBore on the other hand is accounting for these differences.

Also he is giving you actual dope, 7 Mils for a 1000 yard shot, etc... you are mis-reading his answer.

 

[MilDot1960]

@MilDot1960

There is a gravity component to shooting at angles, and most programs just ignore it.

You have gravity working against you up hill, and for you downhill so technically speaking there is a difference in the solution. However because most always just use the Old Rules of Thumb, they have been taught to ignore any real difference as most don't shoot far enough or at a great enough angle to utilize the difference. (target size is usually big enough to absorb the difference as well)

But there is a clear difference between shooting up or down... we just tend to let it swirl in the noise. ColdBore on the other hand is accounting for these differences.

Also he is giving you actual dope, 7 Mils for a 1000 yard shot, etc... you are mis-reading his answer.

Thank You,

So not only is he shooting from where the air is less resistant (Shoots Flatter) also the Bullet is going with gravity and not fighting it yes?? hence why only needing 7 Mil drop as opposed to 8 mil drop going up hill so I guess we can take off 1 mill for downward shots OR 0.1 for every hundred yards / meters but maybe just use the -1 Mrad as the would multiply its self over distance anyway, ?????Maybe.

John

 

[Lowlight]

Doesn't work that way, which is why you want to a ballistic calculator as the old ways of winging it with one sized rules of thumbs are proving ineffective.

 

[MilDot1960]

Doesn't work that way, which is why you want to a ballistic calculator as the old ways of winging it with one sized rules of thumbs are proving ineffective.

I just thought that as his Quoted distance was 1000yds and it was A 1Mil drop that equaled 0.1 per 100yds, But I am sure there must be a math sollution to this, reflecting how the software works it out, Oh well Try again

John

 

[mouse07410]

Resurrecting this thread.

........

Personally I would rather see guys using either program over an "app" as there are far too many downsides to programs based on Point Mass to compete with the likes of either of these.

In my opinion, to be widely used in the community they need to embrace another platform - either iOS or Android. Windows phones aren't as popular, and probably would never be. iPhone rules the US market, and Android rules abroad.

I would certainly buy an application that runs on either Android or iOS and has ballistic engine of either FFS or CB1. Something like Shooter or Ballistic AE, but with FFS engine inside. It wouldn't stop me if some features (like Kestrel interface, or PLRF interface) were not available in this "reduced" version (because on iOS you simply can't connect to BlueTooth devices like Kestrel anyway ).

For example, I can't justify purchasing a $1,800 Nomad, and it doesn't look like HP iPAQ is good enough for FFS Delta V. Nor do I need (or want, or can afford) a dedicated PDA that would only run CB1 or FFS.

P.S. If worst comes to worst, I'd have to keep addressing my shooting needs with Shooter and Ballistic AE - not perfect, but available, and they do most of the job.

 

[MilDot1960]

Resurrecting this thread.



In my opinion, to be widely used in the community they need to embrace another platform - either iOS or Android. Windows phones aren't as popular, and probably would never be. iPhone rules the US market, and Android rules abroad.

I would certainly by an application that runs on either Android or iOS and has ballistic engine of either FFS or CB1. Something like Shooter or Ballistic AE, but with FFS engine inside. It wouldn't stop me if some features (like Kestrel interface, or PLRF interface) were not available in this "reduced" version (because on iOS you simply can't connect to BlueTooth devices like Kestrel anyway ).

For example, I can't justify purchasing a $1,800 Nomad, and it doesn't look like HP iPAQ is good enough for FFS Delta V. Nor do I need (or want, or can afford) a dedicated PDA that would only run CB1 or FFS.

P.S. If worst comes to worst, I'd have to keep addressing my shooting needs with Shooter and Ballistic AE - not perfect, but available, and they do most of the job.

I have just bought another App that seems to be pretty good but I want a dedicated PDA like the recon but they dont have the processor power which runs at 400mhz and my Tablet runs a dual core 1400mhz and its aquarter of the price, but after buying so many lemons I just dont want to get stung again, I want something that has simple access to the main pages, and not one that has all the important stuff hidden away in sub pages,

I would like to see the page layout in these Apps, if anyone has a screen shot, If thats at all possible.

Thanks John

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I would like to see the page layout in these Apps, if anyone has a screen shot, If thats at all possible.

Go to the FFS webpage lextalus.com and download the users manual, watch the 35 videos that take you through each screen and or feature. If you Go to the Patagonia webpage and you can read some of the features and if you look on you tube I think you can find 3 videos that show some screens. Coldbore doesn't have a lot of videos or screen shots unfortunately and both websites are tricky to navigate through and are not what I would call well laid out.

 

[MilDot1960]

Go to the FFS webpage lextalus.com and download the users manual, watch the 35 videos that take you through each screen and or feature. If you Go to the Patagonia webpage and you can read some of the features and if you look on you tube I think you can find 3 videos that show some screens. Coldbore doesn't have a lot of videos or screen shots unfortunately and both websites are tricky to navigate through and are not what I would call well laid out.

Thanks PZT, weldone I will check em out.

John

 

[mouse07410]

I have just bought another App that seems to be pretty good but I want a dedicated PDA like the recon but they dont have the processor power which runs at 400mhz and my Tablet runs a dual core 1400mhz and its aquarter of the price, but after buying so many lemons I just dont want to get stung again, I want something that has simple access to the main pages, and not one that has all the important stuff hidden away in sub pages,

I would like to see the page layout in these Apps, if anyone has a screen shot, If thats at all possible.

Thanks John

John,

First, allow me to disagree on the idea of a dedicated PDA. My reasoning is: I want my PDA to be useful for something else as well, like an iPhone, or at least an iPod. Make calls, keep books and manuals, check email, etc. So if I dedicate a PDA to primarily be a ballistic calculator, it would be something like an Android phone (like Samsung Galaxy II or such), or an iPhone. Not something like HP iPAQ that won't be useful for anything else. And as I wrote above, I just can't afford a decent Nomad to run FFS or CB1.

Now, the apps.

Here you can find the info about and some screenshots of the Shooter app (for Android devices, but it is similar on iOS):
Shooter - Ballistics Calculator for iOS and Android and https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.kndy.shooterfull&hl=en

Here you can find the info about and some screenshots of the Ballistic app (for iOS):
Ballistic: The Pro Ballistic Trajectory Computer for the iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad

Here are some comments about both:

• on this forum http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...llistics/195718-shooter-ballistic-non-ae.html
• on rockslide What is the best Ballistic Calculator for iPhone?

P03 gave you FFS webpage: Field Firing Solutions | Real-time Ballistic Solutions and Related Software Tools for Extended Ranges

For ColdBore1 (formerly Patagonia LoadBase 3):
Patagonia Ballistics - Features and Integration

 

[MilDot1960]

John,

First, allow me to disagree on the idea of a dedicated PDA. My reasoning is: I want my PDA to be useful for something else as well, like an iPhone, or at least an iPod. Make calls, keep books and manuals, check email, etc. So if I dedicate a PDA to primarily be a ballistic calculator, it would be something like an Android phone (like Samsung Galaxy II or such), or an iPhone. Not something like HP iPAQ that won't be useful for anything else. And as I wrote above, I just can't afford a decent Nomad to run FFS or CB1.

Now, the apps.

Here you can find the info about and some screenshots of the Shooter app (for Android devices, but it is similar on iOS):
Shooter - Ballistics Calculator for iOS and Android and https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.kndy.shooterfull&hl=en

Here you can find the info about and some screenshots of the Ballistic app (for iOS):
Ballistic: The Pro Ballistic Trajectory Computer for the iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad

Here are some comments about both:

• on this forum http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...llistics/195718-shooter-ballistic-non-ae.html
• on rockslide What is the best Ballistic Calculator for iPhone?

P03 gave you FFS webpage: Field Firing Solutions | Real-time Ballistic Solutions and Related Software Tools for Extended Ranges

For ColdBore1 (formerly Patagonia LoadBase 3):
Patagonia Ballistics - Features and Integration

Thanks Mouse, Both of my phones are Android and so is my Tablet, I would like Patagonia but I would have to get a windows setup Shooter Looks good and so Does AB but there are a few unkind comments about AB, I had the free version of shooter but the full version looks good. Thanks for your help I will check them out more and see how I get on. and I will let you know what happens,

But this Patagonia look very well thought out, and your right A dedicated PDA for my use would be a waste of money and I dont think I can justifiy the cost in relation to need.

John

 

[hognuts]

Trying to find the drag coefficient for 375 Cheytac, 350 Grain Sierra Matchking @ 3150 fps, I used Litz's numbers on my other calibers. Trying to populate the different tracks with my rifle/ammo combinations on the desktop version of software, anyone having any suggestions would be appreciated, it is a bit above my paygrade!

The software has a calculator to figure it out, but I don't know that I could accurately measure the bullet in all the ways they want to get an accurate answer. I have Litz's 2nd edition book and was able to find my Creedmoor bullet in there and my 6.5 SAUM, but couldnt find the Cheytac info.

 

[hognuts]

I was able to "play with the numbers" and get it to line up with every distance I have dope for from 450 yards out to 2120 yards with the Cheytac, and got the other calibers to line up as well. Looking forward to getting the Trimble NOMAD 800 LC to put the mobile version through its paces!

 

[LastShot300]

Trying to find the drag coefficient for 375 Cheytac, 350 Grain Sierra Matchking @ 3150 fps, I used Litz's numbers on my other calibers. Trying to populate the different tracks with my rifle/ammo combinations on the desktop version of software, anyone having any suggestions would be appreciated, it is a bit above my paygrade!

The software has a calculator to figure it out, but I don't know that I could accurately measure the bullet in all the ways they want to get an accurate answer. I have Litz's 2nd edition book and was able to find my Creedmoor bullet in there and my 6.5 SAUM, but couldnt find the Cheytac info.

This is what I learned having been using CB1 and FFS for a long time. Don't worry about the DC (Drag Coeff) as long as your BC is a good one. As a rule of thumb, if you need to adjust the default value over +/- 10% then your BC is crap. Quite simple. 99% of the time the DC would not need to be played out of 0.500. Your Nomad is a great machine for sure, I had another model from Trimble, battery last for ever even running the Kestrel link and GPS features. Now using only their newest pacakge for Windows Phone, and it's amazingly fast. Have you tried it?

 

[LastShot300]

I was able to "play with the numbers" and get it to line up with every distance I have dope for from 450 yards out to 2120 yards with the Cheytac, and got the other calibers to line up as well. Looking forward to getting the Trimble NOMAD 800 LC to put the mobile version through its paces!

CB1 predictive accuracy is so good, most especially when going transonic that it's almost boring. Good luck with the 375 CT and tell us more on your setup.

 

[hognuts]

This is what I learned having been using CB1 and FFS for a long time. Don't worry about the DC (Drag Coeff) as long as your BC is a good one. As a rule of thumb, if you need to adjust the default value over +/- 10% then your BC is crap. Quite simple. 99% of the time the DC would not need to be played out of 0.500. Your Nomad is a great machine for sure, I had another model from Trimble, battery last for ever even running the Kestrel link and GPS features. Now using only their newest pacakge for Windows Phone, and it's amazingly fast. Have you tried it?

I have not had the opportunity to try it as of yet. I downloaded the desk top version and made some data entry of my actuals on 3 rifles and programmed in the environmentals from the days I had shot those. I am waiting for my Nomad to arrive. I am looking forward to it, to this point I have used app based programs and hard dope, looking forward to upping the game a bit!