OK, so either way, there's not a specific form for it then, just a written letter. Thanks
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Pistol Brace Final Ruling
- Thread starter nhdeadhead
- Start date
The "Requirement" is on every form! You are Welcome.
It is okay to put a different length / caliber upper on the registered receiver, however you must always have in your possession the exact upper that was registered on the Form for when the G-man comes calling to audit that form.
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ATF hid 922R non-compliance destruction rule in the new bullshit pistol brace ban.
I ran across an interesting point..... if for whatever reason ATF disapproves this "amnesty form 1" haven't you just incriminated yourself for possession of an unregistered SBR AND given them all of the pertinent information to wreck your life?
I suppose that’s if you “make” it an sbr after being denied. If you remove the brace then it’s still just a pistol. Nothin illegal about that.
That video about imports being denied is a bit concerning and for lack of better terms; bullshit.
So I can’t register an mp5 / Mke/ Ptr with a brace? Is that only for the amnesty period while it is tax exempt? It is still just a “pistol” until you add a brace/stock so why would it need to be destroyed?
There has been so much speculation regarding this new tyranny of a ruling it’s hard to decipher what is actually legal or not. Leave it up to the atf to make it as confusing as possible and leave you hanging on the edge of a felony.
It's weird cuz normal protocol for me anyway is to file SBR paperwork and upon approval engrave it and assemble. We all know how the ATF loves denial on the smallest paperwork discrepancy. I swear the ATF pulls its "talent" from the DMV. So upon this 88 day background timeout disapproval or fat finger a drop down on eForm Joe Q Public just incriminated himself with a felony!
Yes, and they will then take action. Look up the 88 Day Rule discovery. There’s lots of YouTube videos about it.
Technically none of this is legal…But that’s a whole different can of worms…
26 U.S. Code § 5848 - Restrictive use of information
According to this, they can’t use any information you provide in an attempt to comply against you. Not that I trust they wouldn’t try but I’m failing to see the legal repercussion if they do indeed deny or if the wait goes over the 88 days. As long as you “remove” the brace, what can they do about it?
What is the worst that can happen? You don’t get a “tax exempt” stamp?
Also, if they really tried to prosecute someone who attempted to register but was denied for any reason other than failing the background check, would that not constitute entrapment?26 U.S. Code § 5848 - Restrictive use of information
www.law.cornell.edu
According to this, they can’t use any information you provide in an attempt to comply against you. Not that I trust they wouldn’t try but I’m failing to see the legal repercussion if they do indeed deny or if the wait goes over the 88 days. As long as you “remove” the brace, what can they do about it?
What is the worst that can happen? You don’t get a “tax exempt” stamp?
Yes, and that will not stop them from doing it. Matt Hoover, who has the YouTube channel CRS Firearms first found his wife arrested and taken to Florida because he used to talk about a guy who had made what is called an auto key card. It is a metal business card with a shape etched in it. If you cut along the lines, it will be a lightning link that you can install in your AR-15, making it capable of automatic fire. Matt and his wife did not sell them or get any money for it. But they were trying to get a gofundme account going for the guy who made those. The raid was captured on a camera that the auto key card guy had set up and one of the lead ATF guys was worried about where the dog was.
Then, they arrested Matt and tried to keep him from getting a lawyer. So, he has had to spend a lot of time keeping quiet. But yes, the day they arrested him, it was a fleet of vehicles who drew down on him with guns out ready to aerate him. Over a goddamn card that he had no part of making or selling.
TLDR, yes, they will, forget the word can, they will take anything you say or do and use it against you. But it will only happen on days that end in the letter 'y'.
And you are correct on that. In the sense that he did get some attention. And more likely, the ATF was not cruising videos. He may have pissed someone off and they ratted on him. I feel like yes, we have the freedom of speech. We also have the freedom to shut up. And maybe consult an attorney before talking something like that.
Yeah I was unfortunately one of those people. I had my tax stamp a few months before I bought the solvent trap and they didn't care and they would not let me form 4 it. In there eyes it was illegal and implied that I broke the law because they misinterpreted their own definition wrongly.
Attachments
I agree that discretion is the better part of valor even though I have suffered the slings and arrows of bitch-slappery for it. Turn around and, all of a sudden, the less said or seen, the better. While I agree that it was risky to talk about the cuttable metal card, that is a case of a person being arrested and prosecuted for talking. He did not manufacture the items, he did not receive money for even talking about it. Yes, he did mention the site you could go to and how you should proceed to get it. And nothing hands on. So, your words are now weaponized.
Again, I would advise what were talking about in another thread. STFU. The less you say and the less hard evidence there is laying around, the harder it is prosecute against you. I got verbally smacked down for that but I still stand by it and I agree that Matt Hoover could have done himself a big old favor by not talking about it, so much.
And true, the feds could be watching videos to see what is a-happenin'. Heck, they could even hang out in forums and talk about how lousy the ATF or other parts of government are just to see who bites and what gets said.
So, I will stick with my rubber band collection. Any firearms I even knew about were lost in that boating accident at Omaha. As in Omaha, Nebraska.
Again, I would advise what were talking about in another thread. STFU. The less you say and the less hard evidence there is laying around, the harder it is prosecute against you. I got verbally smacked down for that but I still stand by it and I agree that Matt Hoover could have done himself a big old favor by not talking about it, so much.
And true, the feds could be watching videos to see what is a-happenin'. Heck, they could even hang out in forums and talk about how lousy the ATF or other parts of government are just to see who bites and what gets said.
So, I will stick with my rubber band collection. Any firearms I even knew about were lost in that boating accident at Omaha. As in Omaha, Nebraska.
Where did you get the "solvent trap" from?
ETA, I am not asking because I need one. Curious if it was from one of the disappearing vendors, wish, ebay, Ali, etc
I bought it on gunbroker from rifleremedy, so it was either gunbroker or that guy who released the purchase records. It doesn't matter who you bought a solvent trap from they are all technically illegal now(they were always suppressor parts and you need to form 4 them) and they are a nfa violation. They do not have enough manpower to go after everyone so they choose people who can't fight back and they become examples. I see the same thing happening with pistol braces, they are throwing us a bone with a noose around it.
literally... the amount of cuck members here is incredible
Because God forbid anyone come to this forum to openly discuss gun related topics, and even potentially learn something. This is the internet, so nothing can be learned and my position is the only correct one, and everyone who disagrees with me is a nazi, terrorist, limpwristed cuck.
I'm just glad I "wasted" my money and was laughed at for SBR'ing all the things. It may be "paying" off now!
The import/922r discussion is interesting. Want to guess how many imported pistols, now SBRs, are out there?
No hand wringing here and I'm definitely interested in how this will pan out in the courts. ATF may have finally bit off more than it can even conceive of chewing on.
Oh...eforms is down...that is all!
The import/922r discussion is interesting. Want to guess how many imported pistols, now SBRs, are out there?
No hand wringing here and I'm definitely interested in how this will pan out in the courts. ATF may have finally bit off more than it can even conceive of chewing on.
Oh...eforms is down...that is all!
No.
Shoot a bullet through a solvent trap; tell me how that goes.
The GB guy you purchased from is where I understand it originated from. Selling things that were close to the edge, got pinched, and snitched.
What you see happening in a rogue gov agency, abusing power they do not have.
This is really pretty simple.
If you were ‘planning on submitting a Form 1 anyway,’ stop being a poor and pay the $200 donation fee. Wait for your approval and be on your merry way. None of this shit will impact you beyond current SBR laws.
If you’d prefer to subject yourself to future laws, the ATF changing their minds again, and/or further “clarification” of current rules… take the free one.
If you were ‘planning on submitting a Form 1 anyway,’ stop being a poor and pay the $200 donation fee. Wait for your approval and be on your merry way. None of this shit will impact you beyond current SBR laws.
If you’d prefer to subject yourself to future laws, the ATF changing their minds again, and/or further “clarification” of current rules… take the free one.
RE Pistol Braces: This is Cloward and Piven. Overwhelm the system. If 40,000,000 dipshits apply for form 1s, nothing will get approved ever. ATF can review social media and voting records of those dumb enough to apply and decide who to arrest. It's a two tiered justice system which mean justice for no one. 
Yep, but to make up for the DOJ is going after Rare Breed triggers for making "machine guns"
United States Obtains Temporary Restraining Order Against Firearm Companies Illegally Selling Machine Guns
“The defendants are illegally selling machine guns, plain and simple, with conversion devices that transform AR-15 type rifles into even more lethal weapons suited for battlefields, not our communities,” said United States Attorney Peace. “We will continue to work with our law enforcement...www.justice.gov
I don’t know what rare breed makes. If it’s a binary trigger, buckle up. This may not go their way, regardless of the court. OR, it may start the dominos of collapsing the NFA laws all together.
I know which one is lay my money on.
Edit. Ok. I spent 5 minutes and educated myself. When you post advertisement videos of your ARs running what appears to be about 700 RPM cyclic you have to expect that you’re gonna have to defend yourself at some point. Don’t poke the fucking bear if you don’t want to fight the bear. Being in the good guy side doesn’t mean you won’t spend a decade in fucking prison.
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A Court just issued an injunction against Rare Breed Triggers now. ATF is going after all owners.
Seems like most of the county sheriff’s in Oklahoma are taking this stance.
I admit, it’s genius. I don’t care for FA since I started feeding my rifles, but I don’t look strangely at anyone who wants one. Brilliant piece of tech.
I guess my greater point is, if we are being honest with one another we’re trying to find loopholes to get what we want without going through NFA bullshit.
Braces and trigger like this and binary triggers are loopholes, and loopholes often get closed. If you want to exploit the loophole to force a legal opinion, fine. I commend you for having the balls to do what most of us aren’t willing to risk. However, if you’re not, don’t be the guy two barricades up shouldering an 11.5 LMT with a Gen3 SB brace on there and tell be it’s a fucking pistol. We all know the score here….
Please, Mr. ATF Man,
send some free tax stamps to me.
Because I'm lazy and greedy,
and enjoy things that are free.
Please, Mr. ATF Man,
pass more regulations for me.
Because I'm not a good thinker
and your future actions I can't foresee.
Please, Mr ATF Man,
let me get in line for thee.
Because I know you would never
act heavy-handedly.
Please, Mr ATF Man,
let me register all speedily.
Given your track record in court
Treating laws and the constitution honestly.
Arkansas just stood up to the ATF... Maybe more states will follow-suit.
So everyone who buys a SBR, suppressor, AOW, SBS, or machine gun is lazy, greedy, and just wants to get in line for the ATF? Every person who has ever posted on the form 4 wait time thread is a cuck. Yep makes complete sense.
I guess at the end of the day I'd rather be a cuck with my tax stamp than lose my dog, freedom, and the the several dollars I have invested in this game over an illegal suppressor or SBR.
Is your understanding of the English language so poor that that is your interpretation?
Project much?
Maybe someone already covered this, but I’m just curious as to how they intend to deal with people that have braced pistols with vertical fore grips that have already been registered as AOWs….
I don’t know how many are out there, but the number can’t be zero.
By the ATF’s rewriting of the rules, wouldn’t they have to reclassify those weapons as SBRs now? And do they expect the responsibility of that reclassification paperwork to belong to them or the citizen? Not sure how that works. I’ve never changed the NFA classification on anything before.
I don’t know how many are out there, but the number can’t be zero.
By the ATF’s rewriting of the rules, wouldn’t they have to reclassify those weapons as SBRs now? And do they expect the responsibility of that reclassification paperwork to belong to them or the citizen? Not sure how that works. I’ve never changed the NFA classification on anything before.
As to why I'll remind everyone of the atf agent that got tased little while ago. All the while screaming "IM A FEDERAL AGENT!"
THE mind set of self righteous bigot comes to mind when this question gets asked. Which is a shame because I know some great individuals that work for the ATF. They don't talk work much anymore just hoping to get to retirement.
Got this in the mail the other day from Omaha Outdoors...
"We attended the ATFs webinar yesterday and want to share the information with our customers. We have already noticed all sorts of assumptions and false information online. Our goal is to better inform our customers of the new rule and to clear up any confusion in order to make a better decision. This letter is not to be confused with support for the ATF rule. We do not support rules that restrict responsible gun owners' rights.
As we all know, the ATF has made pistol-braced firearms into SBRs (short-barreled rifles) overnight as of January 31st. The 120 days have started which means it gives the possessor of a pistol-braced firearm 120 days to be in compliance with the new rule. A firearm will be considered an SBR if first, it has a rearward accessory that provides surface area to be shouldered (pistol brace or similar accessory). A buffer tube on an AR platform will not be considered a shouldering device because it is needed for the cycle of operations. The old-school pistol buffer tubes with the foam cheek pad are also fine to have according to the ATF.
Secondly, the ATF will evaluate any firearms length of pull, weight, and manufacturer's marketing material to determine the intent of use (whether it is intended to be shouldered or not).
If the firearm is considered an SBR then the possessor will have 5 options within the 120 days.
The ATF is considering a brace to be an accessory similar to a stock. Which means that braces can be purchased and possessed just like any other accessory. Constructive intent is something to be careful of. Should a brace be removed from the pistol then constructive intent will be considered if the brace can easily be installed onto the firearm. This is mostly important in the event of an ATF search or if the pistol is used in a crime.
In summary, if you have a pistol braced firearm then you have 5 options. The easiest being to remove the brace or convert the firearm into a rifle. The brace is considered an accessory but be careful where or how far away you store it from your firearm in order to avoid constructive intent. Again, our goal is to better inform our customers. We are not in support of this rule but as an FFL dealer we have to abide by the rule for now. There already have been lawsuits filed against the ATF and mass opposition from State Law Enforcement agencies. We hope to see this rule overturned in the future.
We continue to ask for our followers to share with us any public letters from your local law enforcement agencies. We hope to share these letters on our website for everyone to stay informed. We also hope this will unite the community to show mass opposition to this new rule. If you do not see a public announcement or letter for your county, contact your representatives and law enforcement agencies to ask where they stand on rule 2021R-08F and to share your opposition."
"We attended the ATFs webinar yesterday and want to share the information with our customers. We have already noticed all sorts of assumptions and false information online. Our goal is to better inform our customers of the new rule and to clear up any confusion in order to make a better decision. This letter is not to be confused with support for the ATF rule. We do not support rules that restrict responsible gun owners' rights.
As we all know, the ATF has made pistol-braced firearms into SBRs (short-barreled rifles) overnight as of January 31st. The 120 days have started which means it gives the possessor of a pistol-braced firearm 120 days to be in compliance with the new rule. A firearm will be considered an SBR if first, it has a rearward accessory that provides surface area to be shouldered (pistol brace or similar accessory). A buffer tube on an AR platform will not be considered a shouldering device because it is needed for the cycle of operations. The old-school pistol buffer tubes with the foam cheek pad are also fine to have according to the ATF.
Secondly, the ATF will evaluate any firearms length of pull, weight, and manufacturer's marketing material to determine the intent of use (whether it is intended to be shouldered or not).
If the firearm is considered an SBR then the possessor will have 5 options within the 120 days.
- Take off the accessory that shows intent to be shouldered.
- Install a 16" barrel or 16" barreled upper on the firearm.
- Destroy the firearm.
- Surrender the firearm to the ATF.
- Register the firearm as an NFA item via a Form 1.
The ATF is considering a brace to be an accessory similar to a stock. Which means that braces can be purchased and possessed just like any other accessory. Constructive intent is something to be careful of. Should a brace be removed from the pistol then constructive intent will be considered if the brace can easily be installed onto the firearm. This is mostly important in the event of an ATF search or if the pistol is used in a crime.
In summary, if you have a pistol braced firearm then you have 5 options. The easiest being to remove the brace or convert the firearm into a rifle. The brace is considered an accessory but be careful where or how far away you store it from your firearm in order to avoid constructive intent. Again, our goal is to better inform our customers. We are not in support of this rule but as an FFL dealer we have to abide by the rule for now. There already have been lawsuits filed against the ATF and mass opposition from State Law Enforcement agencies. We hope to see this rule overturned in the future.
We continue to ask for our followers to share with us any public letters from your local law enforcement agencies. We hope to share these letters on our website for everyone to stay informed. We also hope this will unite the community to show mass opposition to this new rule. If you do not see a public announcement or letter for your county, contact your representatives and law enforcement agencies to ask where they stand on rule 2021R-08F and to share your opposition."
Yep, I watched that webinar too a day after it was broadcasted. Later in the FAQ there was a question about "slowing the processing rate of Form 4's....?". The ATF didn't even answer that question. I was hoping to know because I'm at day 140+ with my Eform Form 4.
40 min 32 seconds in link below
Just listened to it, it's in reference to slowing Form 4's to process all the Form 1's (assuming people go to register them via Form 1). I mean something has to give, right? But the person asking the question is assuming there's going to be a flood of Form 1's. But they do say they're using "additional resources" to process them outside the normal Form 1 forms.
Absolutely something has to give. I'm well past the "90 day" bullshit that the ATF told us. I didn't believe them anyways so I'm not shocked that I'm at 140+. Let's say 10% (or 1 million) of the 10 million (up to 40 mil) estimated brace owners comply. I doubt the ATF gets a million Form 1 and 4 applications a year (I have no evidence to back up this claim) so hell yeah the ATF is going to be swamped.
Latest info I got from my LGS that sells NFA items was that it was taking 6 months on a eForm 4. That was immediately before the brace drama.
If it makes you feel any better, the last can I bought was on a paper form 4. They restarted the eForms while I was waiting. People e-submitted and got their shit and were happily shooting while I was still waiting on my papers in pending status. Took over a year.
My last approved can took 13 months and 3 days (it was paperform yet). Picked it up November of last year.
13-14 months paper and nearly 9 months on efile for me recently. Unless background checks and approvals are entirely arbitrary, there’s no reason to believe they have the manpower to handle the rate of “amnesty” eForm 1 submissions expected without further compromising the already lengthy wait times.
