Rifle Scopes Precision rifle poors scope struggles.

[Northernjets]

ZCO Would be perfect match for my DTA Covert. But I could get a March 3-24x52 for so much cheaper ...

I honestly had never considered March. They're not very common around Canada, though I suppose you could say the same for ZCO. I had originally considered the NX8 4-32x but after reading reviews, I just couldn't commit without looking through one first and then a good deal on a used AMG popped up. The AMG has given me mixed feelings so far with the 20.4ft 6x fov at 100yards. Won't really know for sure if it's an issue or not until I get it out for deer in the fall.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Rule #1-don’t look through scopes you can’t afford.

I broke that rule today.

I finally got to look through a ZCO.

Ummm yeah, 20 seconds behind it showed me want I want one.
Really nice glass.
Mirage shimmer, color and clarity at about 1200 yards was stunning

A man's got to know his limitations.

I'll admit it I'm a poor. My next scope will be a Strike Eagle 5-25. I'm waiting for a shipping date for my Autotrickler. (Both for long range .308, .)

 

[Mxridr]

Definitely entertainment with statements like that.

 

[b2lee]

A man's got to know his limitations.

I'll admit it I'm a poor. My next scope will be a Strike Eagle 5-25. I'm waiting for a shipping date for my Autotrickler. (Both for long range .308, .)

I'm awaiting news on my Autotrickler as well. I intend to stays in the Poors this year.....I have many things on my list to buy this year...and I'm knocking that list out rather quickly. How about a Primal Rights Competition Primer Seater? That's on my list too.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Definitely entertainment with statements like that.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

I don't do this for a living. Also relates to another thread on the forum.

 

[Steel head]

<<<<at least this poor isn’t out rioting or looting.

<<<<out hustling his ass for that sweet sweet glass!

 

[acudaowner]

I guess I get your point but I still don't get it . I look through every one else's scope that will allow me the chance whether its supposed to be super nice or just cheap junk mostly so i can make my own opinion for myself , what I liked or disliked about what I saw . Its not like I can walk into a cabala's and walk out into their parking lot to see what a snb or anything else looks like at my range . So the range is a nice to have the chance to be able to make comparisons , yea looking a million dollar farrie is painful not to be able to drive it off the lot , but but who wants to pay that much and find out you can't even get in the thing or you can't drive it out your driveway without construction because of ground clearance issues . If you have the chance take it enjoy it you could love it or find you can do without or without paying that much you only live once enjoy it .

 

[ofelas]

 

[avastcosmicarena]

Went to my first national level match today with shooters across the US coming in to shoot at for NRL22X out to 400 yards. I was running my new Tract 4.5-30x56 dialing from 0 mils to 20.4 mils for the 400 yarder which I landed hits on. I also met up with the folks doing the MDT Steel Challenge who had a TT, ZCO, NF 7-35 so I didn't do side by side comparisons but I did get behind the glass. ZCO is great. They're so easy to get behind.

I don't think any higher end glass would've scored me any more hits today, so I'll stick with my glass until I learn to shoot better

The Ares BTR 4.5-27 which I also own, I would consider I outgrew that one. There were definitely many times the glass just wouldn't resolve with enough clarity on some targets on overcast grimy days. Grey steel, grey background, grey sky. But going up to the Ares ETR/Cronus, it holds its own against the Gen II Razor's and NF. I'd say the jump to ZCO would be the only jump I'd consider.

How do you think the Tract Toric compared to the ZCO overall, considering the price difference?

 

[littlepod]

How do you think the Tract Toric compared to the ZCO overall, considering the price difference?

I think the Tract for $1600 is the best scope you can get in that price range. Multiple people put the glass slightly above the Razor Gen II's. I really like the reticle as well.

In terms of knobs, turrets, etc nothing about the Tract has bothered me. I'd say the parallax and magnification ring on the Tract are equal. I like the minimal sized turrets on the ZCO, but Tract's dual locking turrets are solid. I ran out from 0 to 21mils yesterday out to 400 yards and back and it was solid. 8 stages of targets from 25 to 400 yards.

ZCO image picture feels larger, and was just easy to get behind. Almost no shadowing at all, and this is me hunched over the rifle at 20x and it was just super easy to get behind.

 

[Mordamer]

I must be the odd duck as I've looked thru a Premiere and S&B but I'm stilly happy with my DMR II and Gen II Razor.

There's now way I would ever spend what ZCO charges on a scope. I'll happily spend it on a rifle as they retain value fairly well, however, scopes lose value like crazy and become outdated quickly too.

I'm not poor, however, I also can't justify the cost of these ultra expensive scopes.

Really? I guarantee you it is the exact opposite. Buy a rifle brand new 2 years ago for $3500, use it in 10 matches, sell value in the PX is about $2,500 maybe less. Buy a ZCO for $3,600 and use it in the same 10 matches for 2 years and they sell in the PX for more than $3,000. Rifles have always lost value faster than quality scopes and they always will.

If you buy used and sell used you can completely break even on high end scopes. I bought 2 Nightforce ATACR 7-35x scopes in the PX 2 years ago. Average price I paid was $2,650. I have used the crap out of them and I could still sell them for that same price today. Got any rifles you used the crap out of that you could say the same about?

As far as expensive man toys go, expensive scopes are about the best investment you can buy.

 

[st1650]

The Tract looks like a Cronus rebrand ... both made by L.O.W , same reticle, illum, etc

 

[Mordamer]

The Tract looks like a Cronus rebrand ... both made by L.O.W , same reticle, illum, etc

There are several scopes all as you describe that are rebrands of the same basic design. They change the size and knurling on the turrets and a couple other asthetic features and that's about it. Trijicon, Athlon, Tract, and I think 3 others all sell it.

 

[Steel head]

I must be the odd duck as I've looked thru a Premiere and S&B but I'm stilly happy with my DMR II and Gen II Razor.

There's now way I would ever spend what ZCO charges on a scope. I'll happily spend it on a rifle as they retain value fairly well, however, scopes lose value like crazy and become outdated quickly too.

I'm not poor, however, I also can't justify the cost of these ultra expensive scopes.

Well the razor G2 is possibly the best value currently.

The Bushy are solid and not a bad value but the glass in the few I’ve gotten behind wasn’t anything special approximately equaling the glass in my ancient Horus falcon.

To me the super Nice and expensive equipment is justifiable because all the moment LR and ELR are my #1 hobbies surpassing even fishing.

Only problem is I’m one of those pesky poors.

I feel the same way about my 3-12x56 Hensoldts. Use them far more than I did the 3.5-26x56 Hensoldt.

The 3X12 and 4x12 Henny’s have amazing glass but the lack of modern features and their current prices make it kinda silly to actually buy one currently.

 

[ofelas]

I get wanting reticle choices; after all, diversity is what we are surrounded with these days.

But tell me more about these modern features you mention?

The 3X12 and 4x12 Henny’s have amazing glass but the lack of modern features and their current prices make it kinda silly to actually buy one currently.

 

[jlficken]

Well the razor G2 is possibly the best value currently.

The Bushy are solid and not a bad value but the glass in the few I’ve gotten behind wasn’t anything special approximately equaling the glass in my ancient Horus falcon.

To me the super Nice and expensive equipment is justifiable because all the moment LR and ELR are my #1 hobbies surpassing even fishing.

Only problem is I’m one of those pesky poors.



The 3X12 and 4x12 Henny’s have amazing glass but the lack of modern features and their current prices make it kinda silly to actually buy one currently.

I honestly can't say that I think a new Gen II Razor at $1600 is a better value than the DMR II new at $800 currently. The DMR II is also 1lb lighter which is nice.

Guns are basically my only hobby but even then I have to draw the line somewhere and the DMR II is the sweet spot to me at the moment.

I just don't have the eyes to discern the difference between the Gen II Razor and the DMR II honestly.

 

[Steel head]

I get wanting reticle choices; after all, diversity is what we are surrounded with these days.

But tell me more about these modern features you mention?

No zero stop and minimal elevation.
At those power ranges capped or locking turrets would be nice as well.

 

[ofelas]

I feel a zero stop is a non issue. You running 0moa rails?

What minimal elevation are you talking about? My 3-12 Henny has a total range of 30mils and 14.7-14.9 up after zeroing at a 100yds.

If I recall correctly they offered a locking turret to those who felt it was essential.

Capped? Perhaps for windage...not that it makes a difference to me, as I don’t think I’ve accidentally shifted either turret setting while crashing through dense brush.

No zero stop and minimal elevation.
At those power ranges capped or locking turrets would be nice as well.

 

[littlepod]

I don't know about the hunting side, but now that I went to my first national level match I kind of see why people put so much $ in the glass. I mean a TT for $4600 or a ZCO for $3600, it's a ton of $ for the glass. And is it 2x better than the next scope, or 3x better? Probably not. But these folks in the competition realm, they are spending a lot of $ and time behind their rifles. The trip to these matches, is going to be airfare, 300-400 rounds of ammo, your custom rifle, 3 days in a hotel, food, $225 for the match fees. You're talking about weekend matches costing multiple of thousands of dollars. A lot of these folks run 2 matches a month, and the time practicing. You're looking at possible 3K a month in shooting expenditures. That's $36K a year on shooting. A sweet $4K scope that's going to be best in class, keep it's value, and used EVERY time you shoot... seems possibly worth it.

 

[ofelas]

Even considering the fact that you're a short boat ride away from Seattle, you pretty much nailed it.

Your $ calculations would make you a good hunter, as it's all about getting GMO free meat for dirt cheap.

And I'm not even being sarcastic

 

[gunsnjeeps]

The trip to these matches, is going to be airfare, 300-400 rounds of ammo, your custom rifle, 3 days in a hotel, food, $225 for the match fees. You're talking about weekend matches costing multiple of thousands of dollars.

When I first got into High Power Rifle I thought the big expense after initial equipment buying was ammo at a buck a round. After I started shooting more and leaving the local area it became appearant that travel prices where the biggest expense. A weekend match had a $60-70 match fee and about 180 rounds fired in 2 days, call it $200 if you shot Black Hills remanufactured ammo. Add 2 nights in a hotel, food for a couple days, round trip gas, your $200 match now has another $400 to $500 in expenses. Rolling your own ammo still cost $140 for ammo and match fees.

 

[Mxridr]

I own a kahles which I love but get behind a zco during a match and find out how nice they are. Fov and eyebox are excellent which makes a person more efficient behind the rifle. Yeah it is that good for the competitive shooter

 

[zaprosper]

I honestly had never considered March. They're not very common around Canada, though I suppose you could say the same for ZCO. I had originally considered the NX8 4-32x but after reading reviews, I just couldn't commit without looking through one first and then a good deal on a used AMG popped up. The AMG has given me mixed feelings so far with the 20.4ft 6x fov at 100yards. Won't really know for sure if it's an issue or not until I get it out for deer in the fall.

Not sure if you are on the Canadian GunNutz equipment exchange, but a ZCO 5-27 with the Spuhr mount went up for sale yesterday if you were looking for something different. A quick google search also showed that March has a Canadian website and dealer based out of Calgary. They have a lot of the scope prices on that page and more details if you were interested in March. If you wanted ZCO new, Go Big tactical is your guy and he sells a lot of the high end stuff.

 

[patriot07]

I have a Delta Stryker (half step above the Cronus), and I agree that it doesn't give up much to the ATACR, Kahles, S&B, Razor crowd, especially not for the price difference. I don't think it gives up anything to the Razor, and very little to the others. TT is clearly a step past those and it's not really fair for the Stryker at that point. I assume the ZCO is comparable at worst and potentially a little better.

 

[Northernjets]

Not sure if you are on the Canadian GunNutz equipment exchange, but a ZCO 5-27 with the Spuhr mount went up for sale yesterday if you were looking for something different. A quick google search also showed that March has a Canadian website and dealer based out of Calgary. They have a lot of the scope prices on that page and more details if you were interested in March. If you wanted ZCO new, Go Big tactical is your guy and he sells a lot of the high end stuff.

Yeah, I've bought a good portion of my two ARC
Nucleus builds off of GBT. Also saw that ZCO on the CGN EE. I've unfortunately got a lot of big boy expenses coming up this year so a ZCO 420 is definitely off the table for me for the forseeable future. Also, to be fair, it's not like I'm suffering with the Razor and AMG either haha. We're too spoiled with awesome optic choices these days.

 

[zaprosper]

Yeah, I've bought a good portion of my two ARC
Nucleus builds off of GBT. Also saw that ZCO on the CGN EE. I've unfortunately got a lot of big boy expenses coming up this year so a ZCO 420 is definitely off the table for me for the forseeable future. Also, to be fair, it's not like I'm suffering with the Razor and AMG either haha. We're too spoiled with awesome optic choices these days.

Yeah I was tempted for a half second to sell one of my scopes and see what the hype is all about. But like you, lots of expenses and might buy a house in this buyers market. It is tough to justify spending that much money even if you can afford it. I actually downgraded and sold one of my $3000.00 scopes and got 2 scopes with it, one that I like just as much. I find you can spend under $1500.00 now and get an amazing scope and the way it has progressed in the last 5 years is insane. 5 years ago, $1500.00 got you something like a Sightron S3 in Canada with mismatching turrets and reticle and it can't compete at all with a lot of the stuff that price now, even though it is still a nice scope.
Wouldn't mind seeing your builds and knowing who you get to do your gunsmithing.

 

[Southern Custom]

Reading through this thread reminds me of the games we play to justify the purchases we are making particularly when trying to save a buck. When reading reviews, every scope is always almost as good as the next tier up. How many times have you read a review that says the $250 scope A is as nice as $500 scope B. And $500 scope B as nice as $1000 scope C. And $1000 scope C is just as nice as $2000 scope D. Given that logic, scope A is just as nice as D. What's the reality? Scope A is what it is. A nice $250 scope. The lesson? Spend what you can afford and be happy with your choice. But don't think your $150 Amazon Monstrom Tactical is as good as a Vortex PST. And don't think your Vortex PST is just as good as that Tangent Theta your buddy owns.
I just plunked an Athlon Ares on top of my 6mm. It fit my budget at the moment. And it's just as good as..... an Athlon Ares. (but I've heard it's almost as nice as....... You get my drift.)

 

[Steel head]

Reading through this thread reminds me of the games we play to justify the purchases we are making particularly when trying to save a buck. When reading reviews, every scope is always almost as good as the next tier up. How many times have you read a review that says the $250 scope A is as nice as $500 scope B. And $500 scope B as nice as $1000 scope C. And $1000 scope C is just as nice as $2000 scope D. Given that logic, scope A is just as nice as D. What's the reality? Scope A is what it is. A nice $250 scope. The lesson? Spend what you can afford and be happy with your choice. But don't think your $150 Amazon Monstrom Tactical is as good as a Vortex PST. And don't think your Vortex PST is just as good as that Tangent Theta your buddy owns.
I just plunked an Athlon Ares on top of my 6mm. It fit my budget at the moment. And it's just as good as..... an Athlon Ares. (but I've heard it's almost as nice as....... You get my drift.)

As good as,,,,
Lol

 

[68sting]

Reading through this thread reminds me of the games we play to justify the purchases we are making particularly when trying to save a buck. When reading reviews, every scope is always almost as good as the next tier up. How many times have you read a review that says the $250 scope A is as nice as $500 scope B. And $500 scope B as nice as $1000 scope C. And $1000 scope C is just as nice as $2000 scope D. Given that logic, scope A is just as nice as D. What's the reality? Scope A is what it is. A nice $250 scope. The lesson? Spend what you can afford and be happy with your choice. But don't think your $150 Amazon Monstrom Tactical is as good as a Vortex PST. And don't think your Vortex PST is just as good as that Tangent Theta your buddy owns.
I just plunked an Athlon Ares on top of my 6mm. It fit my budget at the moment. And it's just as good as..... an Athlon Ares. (but I've heard it's almost as nice as....... You get my drift.)

I think the same thing as I’m reading reviews. Lol.

 

[army_eod]

If you need a ZCO get it. If you don’t then don’t.

If you need a Lambo then buy it. If you don’t then don’t.

It’s your money.

 

[delinquent pleb]

Which

I own a kahles but the zco is unbelievable

Which Kahles? I have a K1050 and would be fascinated to hear how much bette the ZCO is than the Kahles. Are they justified by the price? Because the price of those makes even Kahles look entry level.

 

[Mxridr]

6x24x56

 

[zaprosper]

Reading through this thread reminds me of the games we play to justify the purchases we are making particularly when trying to save a buck. When reading reviews, every scope is always almost as good as the next tier up. How many times have you read a review that says the $250 scope A is as nice as $500 scope B. And $500 scope B as nice as $1000 scope C. And $1000 scope C is just as nice as $2000 scope D. Given that logic, scope A is just as nice as D. What's the reality? Scope A is what it is. A nice $250 scope. The lesson? Spend what you can afford and be happy with your choice. But don't think your $150 Amazon Monstrom Tactical is as good as a Vortex PST. And don't think your Vortex PST is just as good as that Tangent Theta your buddy owns.
I just plunked an Athlon Ares on top of my 6mm. It fit my budget at the moment. And it's just as good as..... an Athlon Ares. (but I've heard it's almost as nice as....... You get my drift.)

I agree with what you're saying. Usually when you pay more money, you are getting more/ better features, better form factor or better glass. But, sometimes people could be buying features they never use, or can't tell the difference between good glass and really good glass. If that's the case, someone can't really tell the difference between a $1000 and $2000 scope and can make it tough to justify spending more. As long as the scope fits your budget and needs the rest really doesn't matter, just like you said. I definitely think I need to get my hands on a ZCO or TT one day and bet I would never look back.
All that being said, have yet to see a $250 scope that feels every bit as good as a $500 scope or a $500 scope that's as nice as a $1000 scope. The diminishing returns seem to happen closer to $750 to $1000

 

[Racer88]

Rule #1-don’t look through scopes you can’t afford.

I broke that rule today.

I finally got to look through a ZCO.

Ummm yeah, 20 seconds behind it showed me want I want one.
Really nice glass.
Mirage shimmer, color and clarity at about 1200 yards was stunning

Made me laugh. So true... about a lot of items.

Years ago, I got to drive someone else's brand new Ferrari F430. At the end, I told the owner, "Well... now I'm ruined for cars!"

When I told my other car-guy friends that the first Ferrari I ever drove was a new F430, one of them said, "That's like losing your virginity to a super-model!"

There's definitely a difference when it comes to glass, too. Though, we are fortunate today that the cheaper glass has gotten quite a bit better. There are some good values in budget-level optics that at least get the "poors" in the game.

 

[alwaywatchyoursix]

I bought a K624i not too long before the K525 dropped. Personally I think it's a great scope, but as with all things I'm always looking for what's newer and better. And coincidentally I have another rifle that I was thinking of putting a ZCO 5-27 on.

But then everything went to hell in a handbasket this year, so now that I'm stuck following the rules of the poors. I guess I'll just be moving the Kahles back and forth and re-zeroing each range trip until that changes.

 

[Steel head]

My thoughts on the scope market and comparing apples to oranges is that the sub $1000 market is where the risk lies. The greater risk I should say. The VERY large majority of scopes sold are in this price point. But the risk of getting a lemon or very sub par optic is much greater here. You may get a decent scope. You may not. Most people in this group dont even do tracking tests on their scopes, so they have no idea at what level of reliability it is performing. They mount it, shoot it, and if they hit the target and it doesn't break, they go on Facebook and proclaim what a great scope it is. And it must be, they own it, right?

In today's market, there are a lot of great scopes at >$1000 that track great, are durable, and can be counted on to perform reliably. Being one of those guys that's put a lot of scopes side by side, I can honestly say anything between $1000 to $1400 is pretty close in glass. You could give one brand or another the nod and say it's a little better, but it's not a significant difference. It's not enough to improve your hit ratio.

The $1400 to $2000 range is where things get really cool.. You start seeing scopes that have all the qualities of the most expensive scopes, but now you're also starting to see some pretty nice glass. I personally think this is the sweet spot in the market. Great scopes at affordable price points. Well made, reliable, dependable, First world optics. The guys that want a nice optic but dont want to commit to an alpha scope are pretty willing to pay this amount, and for the most part, are pretty happy with their choice.

Once you go above this range, you can simplify the attributes of the scope. You're paying for glass. And we all know there is some pretty sweet glass out there. It's a pleasure to look through an optic and see that Ansel Adam's detal. But again, this won't net you any more hits downrange. I could make a fair argument for saying your hit ratio wont improve over the $1k class scopes.

So I think it makes it pretty easy for people to claim certain scopes punch above their weight class, because what are you really comparing? The ability to see and hit your target? Tracking? The fact that the parallax actually functions? The Devil is in the Details.. and a lot of folks don't understand the details that separate one level of quality from another.

I agree with the $1400-2000 range right now being really good right now, a lot of options there and it’s very capable glass.
Personally I feel if your serious about shooting that’s where you should start.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Im sure Ill take heat here, but I don't like that ZCOMP deal. I'll take a TANGENT THETA with parallax free shooting past 250 yards over a Zcomp and I prefer the ATACR for value as well... I just got two ATACRs for myself and a friend. The 7-35 is awesome.

Zcomp trying to control pricing too much and that bothers me. Too much waste. They dont allow distributors to work out deals with other dealers making the scope to much money to own one IMO.

I dont like any company that controls pricing, it's just a personal thing. Scopes, cars, furniture...It bothers me. I'm a capitalist and competition is healthy for consumers. Recently they proved my point on a special offer. They are just trying to inflate pricing on the glass and recently they proved that by offering free scope mounts to make up for it.

Why? Why give away scope mounts on a special rather than discounting the glass that you manufacture. Answer:to artificialy inflate prices on the scope.

Zcomp is probably a great scope, but I dont find myself buying one. Maybe when they have more manufacturing ability and they resort to a more typical distribution model I'll get involved.

 

[1moaoff]

Rule #1-don’t look through scopes you can’t afford.

I broke that rule today.

I finally got to look through a ZCO.

Ummm yeah, 20 seconds behind it showed me want I want one.
Really nice glass.
Mirage shimmer, color and clarity at about 1200 yards was stunning

Remeber 20$ is 20$ go hustle it up!!!

 

[1moaoff]

With this promotion through the end of the month, it makes it even tougher...

Optics - Extended Zero Compromise Optic ZC527 and ZC420 with the MPCT1 or MPCT2 with a free Spuhr Mount through June 30th!!!

Today is the last day!!! Due to popular demand, this promo is extending through June!!! Get up to a free $410 Spuhr mount or ARC Rings with Tenebraex Caps with your purchase of a ZC527 and ZC420 with the MPCT1 or MPCT2 from now until June 30th. We are setting this up on our site but feel free...

www.snipershide.com

When the new reticle is out there will be a couple heading my way if they get it right.

 

[1moaoff]

Really? I guarantee you it is the exact opposite. Buy a rifle brand new 2 years ago for $3500, use it in 10 matches, sell value in the PX is about $2,500 maybe less. Buy a ZCO for $3,600 and use it in the same 10 matches for 2 years and they sell in the PX for more than $3,000. Rifles have always lost value faster than quality scopes and they always will.

If you buy used and sell used you can completely break even on high end scopes. I bought 2 Nightforce ATACR 7-35x scopes in the PX 2 years ago. Average price I paid was $2,650. I have used the crap out of them and I could still sell them for that same price today. Got any rifles you used the crap out of that you could say the same about?

As far as expensive man toys go, expensive scopes are about the best investment you can buy.

I dont sell either item very often... otherwise I would be out of balance.... balance is key in life... new rifles get new scopes... want new scopes buy new rifles....

 

[drshoot]

Eagle eye optics, Baby! You can't go wrong... if you don't really think about it.


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