Night Vision PVS14 vs RNVG

[JWG]

I'm agonizing over which path to take. As I understand it:

-PVS14 will allow me to perform tasks up close better in low light if there is enough ambient for my uncovered eye.
-RNVG will allow me more depth perception, but I question how, as binoculars never seemed superior really to a rifle scope, for that, to me.
-Both offer 40* FOV
-Both can be had with literally the same tube(s)
-The PVS14 is lighter

Whichever I get, will be WP L3 filmless

I plan to aim my weapon using a MAWL C1+. Otherwise, it wears an NX8 in a 1.70" mount, and modlite at 10:30 for daytime/white light use.

My intended uses for the NODS are: hiking, stargazing, run n gun, hunting (pest control), property surveillance and security.

My location is extremely rural, potentially with zero ambient light aside from what nature provides if I turn all of the lights off in my house.

Is there a compelling reason to spend the $5K more on RNVG's rather than in ammo/training/paying down a car/etc?

 

[jeffl838]

For gunfighting and orienteering, the only way to go really is dual tube. The only time single tube is superior is mixed lighting environments, and if you have something with articulating tubes, you simply swing one up.

If you're hiking over well-traveled trails and hunting without too much chasing, you'll be fine with a single tube. Static surveillance, you might be better off with a single tube vs dual, because you can run thermal on the other eye, and if you detect a light with the NVG, you can confirm with the unaided eye if it's vis or IR. This is a pretty specific use case though, dual tube + articulation really gives you a solution for almost everything (except for arguably durability, and maybe pocket storage)

 

[Downtown]

The path I took, with the same uses, has been discussed here often. I bought one PVS-14 and the popular and relatively economical MOD Armory bridge, thus having the ability to purchase another PVS-14 as funds allow. Really too many advantages to do anything else. Probably too much reading here about those advantages to reiterate them all here.

 

[JWG]

The path I took, with the same uses, has been discussed here often. I bought one PVS-14 and the popular and relatively economical MOD Armory bridge, thus having the ability to purchase another PVS-14 as funds allow. Really too many advantages to do anything else. Probably too much reading here about those advantages to reiterate them all here.

I want a 1 and done solution. I don't want to piecemeal it. I also don't want to buy binos if a PVS14 will suffice fine, nor do I want to be very sad with my PVS14 if I buy it and look through binos in the future. Panos and PSQ36 are out of my reach.

 

[jeffl838]

You'll be really fucking sad with your pvs14 if you ever try binos and then go for a run thru the woods LOL

That being said, owning a PVS14 alongside a set of bino's isn't a waste. There are a lot of scope, phone, camera, etc adaptors for 14's. They're very multi-use and a NV staple.

 

[SkyScrapin]

I went from two sets of binos to two sets of binos plus a -14 - backwards most would say.

I’d grab the binos every time. The -14 is more universal with thermal and that’s the primary reason why it was added.

 

[JWG]

How do you instantly go white-light and optic from LAM, when using a binocular setup, when/if necessary?

 

[JWG]

A hand grenade covers this situation nicely.

That's one way of making sure the weapon used doesn't ever stare back at you in court from an evidence table!

 

[tinytigers]

I’ve had my duals for a year and have done so much more than hunting it’s crazy. Driving, flying, skiing, shooting, hiking, dirt biking, and even just stargazing - it’s like having superpowers. The added depth perception and acuity of having duals adds so much more value to night vision I can’t even describe it. You just need to go use them.

 

[JWG]

I’ve had my duals for a year and have done so much more than hunting it’s crazy. Driving, flying, skiing, shooting, hiking, dirt biking, and even just stargazing - it’s like having superpowers. The added depth perception and acuity of having duals adds so much more value to night vision I can’t even describe it. You just need to go use them.

I've been also told if I run duals out further, I can head tilt and still instantly access wml and nx8, if situation dictates, as well as see around them to perform admin tasks ambient permitting. Is this your finding as well?

 

[jeffl838]

It's possible to shoot around your tubes when they are down, especially with a red dot, but I think it's stupid because of how clumsy it is. It's not gonna be like rolling your rifle to an offset red dot. Are you asking for in case your laser fails?

Admin tasks, depending on what task, you can roll a tube up, kick your helmet back a little, or just flicker your eyes downwards and use that available space. Or just do it through NVG's with an aperture-reducition cap

 

[WhereNow&How]

OP..... You have been given some excellent advice from the posters above.

You said you did not want to "piece meal" a system together. Well the NV, Thermal, MFLAM, White Light etc etc gear a person sets up is an inherently layered and piecemeal'd process.

Here is my 2 cents which is basically a summary of what has already been stated.

2 PVS 14's bridged on a Mod Armory Light Weight mount offers the best of all possible worlds, situations, configurations etc etc. It is a far superior, tougher and fail safe system than anything I know of with the only "slight" negative of being a little heavier than most dedicated systems. 2 PVS14's on a Mod Armory Light weight bridge come in at about the same weight as a set of PVS 15's. Lets say 25 to 26 ounces. Properly counterweighted, with 4D pads and a H-Nape Chin strap and it is a very comfortable system IMHO.

But hey you can drop a NOD off anytime you want to lighten up.

Run your NODS a good bit away from your eyes so you can "look" under and around them and also they do not fog up from sweating body heat when you are exerting yourself.

If you want instant white light and Visible Pointer you pretty much have to go with a Dbal A3 or the NGAL. The Dbal A3 is the betta system IMHO

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

IMO, going from my PVS-14 to my ANVIS-9s was just as big of an upgrade as going from my crappy Mark 1 Eyeballs to a PVS-14. Depth perception (plus slightly better glass and tubes) is a damn gamechanger. My 14 is relegated to "Hey, friend, I'm about to wreck your budget for the next 6-12 months" moments.

 

[johnbrody0317]

my personal experience with pvs14s in rural Afghanistan was so bad I will have to recommend saving up for better. Especially for hiking your depth perception will be off so much it'll make hiking miserable

 

[TheHorta]

my personal experience with pvs14s in rural Afghanistan was so bad I will have to recommend saving up for better. Especially for hiking your depth perception will be off so much it'll make hiking miserable

Hiking under duals ain’t all that much better.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Yeah I spend a good bit of time in some rough terrain under duals and/or 14 and Breach. The Breach actually helps out a lot for navigation.

Slow is fast when you consider the possibility of face plant downtime and damaged equipment.

 

[johnbrody0317]

Hiking under duals ain’t all that much better.

In all fairness I've never hiked under duals so I can't compare i can only guess it really doesn't get much worse than pvs14

 

[JWG]

I got to try some binos and a PVS14 the other day.
The tubes were 1800fom white phos, elbit in both cases. The 14 was fine. I could move easily and had no issues. The night was around 1/4-1/8 lume, depending on cloud position. The binos made everything feel more natural. Depth perception was a touch off, but I again had zero issues. I did prefer the feel and psychological effect of the binos. I have never worn nods before. Literally first time wearing them. Neither helmet was setup well for me, but worked for demo purposes. I would choose the binos. Not because they gave me any more capability, at least walking or seeing, but because psychologically, they were superior to me. I will say that up close movement was washed out with binos, while with the 14, you could use your unaided eye. Looking under binos didnt work. Light contracted the pupils. Shapes were not even visible well. With pvs14, non issue. Could use the slight ambient to see gross shapes with high contrast (a persons black shoes on concrete standing in front of you).

 

[jeffl838]

I think the conversation about the hiking use case with dual vs mono needs to define what hiking means.

When I say that duals are better for running through the woods, I mean literally running through untrailed woods. If you're walking on a fairly flat surface bino's might be more comfortable but not a game changer.

Basically:
- 400m up a jagged mountain, or through thick and uneven woods: bino's are going to crush mono's
- 400m at a track: probably the same

 

[TheHorta]

I think the conversation about the hiking use case with dual vs mono needs to define what hiking means.

When I say that duals are better for running through the woods, I mean literally running through untrailed woods. If you're walking on a fairly flat surface bino's might be more comfortable but not a game changer.

Basically:
- 400m up a jagged mountain, or through thick and uneven woods: bino's are going to crush mono's
- 400m at a track: probably the same

Irony is, I know plenty of experienced guys that would say precisely the opposite. I guess is boils down to “different strokes.” Some like having an unaided eye and walk/hike more effectively with that, using the NOD to augment terrain reading.

 

[jeffl838]

I have combined thousands of hours of experience on both platforms and have walked probably ~100 first timers through both systems.

• First time bino users are on average significantly less clumsy with everything from walking to weapon manipulation.
• No first time dual tube users would have been better off with mono's.
• No first time mono users would have not been better off with binos.
• No long term mono users would've been better off sticking with mono's.
• The easiest thing to notice is that bino users generally stare at their feet less.
• Slapping bino nvg's onto a mono user makes him instantly more athletic and maneuver-capable.

I have spent more time in low illum (>50%) than high illum. I don't have anything written down in a scientific manner, but generally I went out knowing what the illum % was. At >10%, your unaided eye might still be able to help in a totally open field but in wooded environments what little environmental illum is left is defeated by trees.

I wish I would have kept journal and been able to present this more authoritatively because i've heard pro-mono sentiments before - people saying that bino's are whatever - but I'm 100% sure that bino's are completely better in almost every circumstance. The only exception is a mixed lighting urban environment - in which case you navigate/orienteer/infil with binos, and articulate one tube up when needed.

I think different strokes guys are just like the dudes that refused to put red dots on their guns because they were married to their iron sights. I don't think anyone would be faster with mono's vs bino's on a timed cross-country event through thick woods/mountains

 

[NateSavannah]

I have combined thousands of hours of experience on both platforms and have walked probably ~100 first timers through both systems.

• First time bino users are on average significantly less clumsy with everything from walking to weapon manipulation.
• No first time dual tube users would have been better off with mono's.
• No first time mono users would have not been better off with binos.
• No long term mono users would've been better off sticking with mono's.
• The easiest thing to notice is that bino users generally stare at their feet less.
• Slapping bino nvg's onto a mono user makes him instantly more athletic and maneuver-capable.

I have spent more time in low illum (>50%) than high illum. I don't have anything written down in a scientific manner, but generally I went out knowing what the illum % was. At >10%, your unaided eye might still be able to help in a totally open field but in wooded environments what little environmental illum is left is defeated by trees.

I wish I would have kept journal and been able to present this more authoritatively because i've heard pro-mono sentiments before - people saying that bino's are whatever - but I'm 100% sure that bino's are completely better in almost every circumstance. The only exception is a mixed lighting urban environment - in which case you navigate/orienteer/infil with binos, and articulate one tube up when needed.

I think different strokes guys are just like the dudes that refused to put red dots on their guns because they were married to their iron sights. I don't think anyone would be faster with mono's vs bino's on a timed cross-country event through thick woods/mountains

Why do you think it is bino users stare at their feet less? lots of good info man. thanks for sharing.

 

[jeffl838]

This might be kinda meta, but i think giving your brain more data let's your brain subconsciously plan your next few steps better, and if you're brain has a better plan for the next few steps, you don't need to look at where your next few steps are because the plan is already there. Not sure. We'd have to consult a walking expert. I'm curious too.

 

[NateSavannah]

I wonder if each eye interacts with the half of the brain its in front of differently. in other words if we can process what we see better if both eyes/ both halves of our brain are involved.

 

[WhereNow&How]

So here is my two cents. I think that a mono in a high light environment works pretty good because your unaided eye is getting plenty of information to see because of the natural ambient light and this reconciles with your brain well. However, in a pitch dark low light environment the unaided eye is struggling with the signals it is sending to your brain (solid black) vs the signals the NV eye is sending.

So if wearing NV I think a rotating Bino combination is the ticket. If you in a high light environment rotate up one pod so you can observe ambient lighting conditions, then if you hit the dark woods roll that pod back down so you can make good time moving around.

So the biggest denominator to me on the Mono vs Bino performance has to do with the available ambient lighting conditions more than anything.

No matter whether whether I am running a single or duals I always run my NODS way out away from my face so I can look around and under my NODS to monitor ambient lighting conditions. The worst scenario to me is having your eyes knee deep in NV where you are in the tunnel visioned world of NV only.

 

[Ironman8]

Best logical reasoning I’ve seen yet @WhereNow&How makes perfect sense.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Best logical reasoning I’ve seen yet @WhereNow&How makes perfect sense.

Well I think @jeffl838 was kinda on that track, I may have just stated it in a clearer manner.

 

[jeffl838]

I wonder if each eye interacts with the half of the brain its in front of differently. in other words if we can process what we see better if both eyes/ both halves of our brain are involved.

Actually that's 100% how the brain works, which isn't something i've thought of applying to this. Read about this "split brain" stuff when you get the chance. Tl:dr, each human brain is two brains and each eye goes to one of the brains. If you see something with your left brain's eye but that info needs to feed a right brain activity, it has to travel through the middle connective thing. The experiment noted that if the middle connective thing was cut, each brain turned into it's own separate mini-brain. IE the right brain's eye could only feed info to right brain activities.

That being said, I think most of us have good middle connective thing and this shouldn't affect much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain

No matter whether whether I am running a single or duals I always run my NODS way out away from my face so I can look around and under my NODS to monitor ambient lighting conditions. The worst scenario to me is having your eyes knee deep in NV where you are in the tunnel visioned world of NV only.

I go as far as I can without having scope shadow, and i turn it down as much as I can too. If I go into some sort of action mode, i'll crank it up and it's like hitting a boost button.

 

[MarinePMI]

Actually that's 100% how the brain works, which isn't something i've thought of applying to this. Read about this "split brain" stuff when you get the chance. Tl:dr, each human brain is two brains and each eye goes to one of the brains. If you see something with your left brain's eye but that info needs to feed a right brain activity, it has to travel through the middle connective thing. The experiment noted that if the middle connective thing was cut, each brain turned into it's own separate mini-brain. IE the right brain's eye could only feed info to right brain activities.

That being said, I think most of us have good middle connective thing and this shouldn't affect much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain


I go as far as I can without having scope shadow, and i turn it down as much as I can too. If I go into some sort of action mode, i'll crank it up and it's like hitting a boost button.

It's the corpus callosum (iirc), and yes each eye feeds each hemisphere. That being said, one eye can feed data to the other hemisphere, but it is fragmented/blurry and ends up being used for spatial awareness. At least that's how it felt when they shut off the blood to the right side of my brain (carotid occlusion test is what I think they called it). It hurts/throbs like hell, but if you're one of the 10-15% of the population that can live with only one carotid, you can sense the rerouting of your sight, as well as the tunnel vision in that eye, from the dilation of blood vessels as blood is routed to the hemisphere that is being deprived of blood. It's a screaming headache while they perform the test (1 1/2 minutes with the carotid blocked), and you have to answer a bunch of questions and math problems, but the brain definitely adjusts, even if it is at a reduced rate (IIRC, they said if the carotid was inadvertently cut on me, I'd likely only regain "86%" functionality of my brain. Not sure how, where or why they had such an exact percentage, but there you have it).

The brain is an amazingly adaptable thing when you think about it (no pun intended). Lol. Just happy they didn't damage mine during the surgeries (two of the four, which you had to be awake for, as the poked around).

ETA: Sorry for the thread derailment

 

[jeffl838]

It's the corpus callosum (iirc), and yes each eye feeds each hemisphere. That being said, one eye can feed data to the other hemisphere, but it is fragmented/blurry and ends up being used for spatial awareness. At least that's how it felt when they shut off the blood to the right side of my brain (carotid occlusion test is what I think they called it). It hurts/throbs like hell, but if you're one of the 10-15% of the population that can live with only one carotid, you can sense the rerouting of your sight, as well as the tunnel vision in that eye, from the dilation of blood vessels as blood is routed to the hemisphere that is being deprived of blood. It's a screaming headache while they perform the test (1 1/2 minutes with the carotid blocked), and you have to answer a bunch of questions and math problems, but the brain definitely adjusts, even if it is at a reduced rate (IIRC, they said if the carotid was inadvertently cut on me, I'd likely only regain "86%" functionality of my brain. Not sure how, where or why they had such an exact percentage, but there you have it).

The brain is an amazingly adaptable thing when you think about it (no pun intended). Lol. Just happy they didn't damage mine during the surgeries (two of the four, which you had to be awake for, as the poked around).

ETA: Sorry for the thread derailment

Dude don't be sorry, brain stuff is cool. Most important piece of hardware when it comes to shooting and most other things. Glad to hear you're all good.

 

[camocorvette]

Thanks guys, I love the knowledge gathered here.

 

[KYpatriot]

I see Im in the minority here but with a few hundred hours under anvis I dont think the depth perception under duals is that much better. It is some better, but not double. Perhaps with panos but I havent used those.

If you have other priorities unfulfilled, like thermal or a clip on, Id use the money for that and run a single.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I see Im in the minority here but with a few hundred hours under anvis I dont think the depth perception under duals is that much better. It is some better, but not double. Perhaps with panos but I havent used those.

If you have other priorities unfulfilled, like thermal or a clip on, Id use the money for that and run a single.

Yeah, I agree with what you are saying here for sure. I think the bigger thing is that you brain just likes a set of duals more than a single.

A good way to tell pretty much the same is just put a patch over one of your eyes in the daytime and run around doing stuff. Pretty much the same at night.
Your brain just likes it when 2 peepers are working seeing the same thing. However, if you run around for a while with just a mono people usually adapt pretty well also.

You spot on with how to build your kit. Run a single, get thermal, then fall back and add a second NV pod etc as the funds become available.

 

[Alex V]

Reading this thread is total confirmation bias for me. Thanks all.

Makes me feel better about ordering my first set of binos.

 

[JWG]

I have combined thousands of hours of experience on both platforms and have walked probably ~100 first timers through both systems.

• First time bino users are on average significantly less clumsy with everything from walking to weapon manipulation.
• No first time dual tube users would have been better off with mono's.
• No first time mono users would have not been better off with binos.
• No long term mono users would've been better off sticking with mono's.
• The easiest thing to notice is that bino users generally stare at their feet less.
• Slapping bino nvg's onto a mono user makes him instantly more athletic and maneuver-capable.

I have spent more time in low illum (>50%) than high illum. I don't have anything written down in a scientific manner, but generally I went out knowing what the illum % was. At >10%, your unaided eye might still be able to help in a totally open field but in wooded environments what little environmental illum is left is defeated by trees.

I wish I would have kept journal and been able to present this more authoritatively because i've heard pro-mono sentiments before - people saying that bino's are whatever - but I'm 100% sure that bino's are completely better in almost every circumstance. The only exception is a mixed lighting urban environment - in which case you navigate/orienteer/infil with binos, and articulate one tube up when needed.

I think different strokes guys are just like the dudes that refused to put red dots on their guns because they were married to their iron sights. I don't think anyone would be faster with mono's vs bino's on a timed cross-country event through thick woods/mountains

For movement, even up steep inclines (30% grade) with loose, rocky footing (river gravel), I didn't find much difference between mono/bino. No need to stare at your feet. What you saw 3-5 paces away, is where you are now. Just keep it in mind. Of course, I can run through uncleared woods at night on the side of a mountain in the Ozarks just using a flash-light like a firefly, and have always practiced such even as a child, growing up in the middle of nowhere and being very outdoors inclined, so maybe unique experience vs. someone who has never gone hiking at night.

What I found as the big difference was the "comfort" of having both eyes see the same thing when in near 0 light.

I was able to use a PVS14 with COTI. Didn't like it. Makes the PVS dimmer, and the COTI didn't do much for me.

Depth perception mono vs. bino was identical. Bino was just less "stress" because it felt more natural both eyes getting the same input. Depth perception was fine on both, with objects being a little further than you "think", but instantly adaptable. I could rapidly touch you on the nose with a finger under NOD(s) without using un-due force. No stress. I found the depth perception issue to be very overblown.

 

[Wading]

I've been using a pair of photonis tube equipped PVS14's for several years. Mine have XR5 tubes that predate the 4G/Intens/Echo technology.

At the time I got them I did some comparison testing and decided that the Photonis tubes were equal or maybe even superior to the (at the time) common-place Omni 4 Envis style tubes. I still have them by going strong.

Photonis tubes are naturally very rugged and shock/recoil resistant. They have good center resolution when exposed to bright light sources. In the extra dark conditions they will "lose" to an L3 filmless or high spec omni-7/8 tube but even then you will probably want IR illumination anyway.

The new Echo tubes are even better then what I have. I've peaked through some and I personally wouldn't hesitate to buy a set of Echo's today and I would take echo's over a lot of thin-filmed tubes.

 

[jeffl838]

So I have yet to mention depth perception, especially in regards to rough/dark cross country, because I think that depth perception doesn't really help in that context. What I think does help is binocular summation - this is what why a dude who can see 20/20 (or whatever) with either single eye, but with both eyes open can see 20/15. I think that binos improve your ability to navigate rough and especially dark terrain because a better picture gives you more information.

I do think the depth perception helps in CQB but that's not really in the domain of this convo. It might help you in a jungle? Haven't been to anything I'd call a jungle with NVG's.

Take it for what it's worth.

 

[MarinePMI]

That's too funny, because what little use I had with NVG's when I was still FMF, was in a jungle environment. And, depth perception (or lack of) was the biggest gripe about the NV gear back then (late 80's). We used to joke about walking off a cliff if we didn't pay attention, and move slowly.

Those things are probably "state of the artifact" now, and the paired 14's I have now are light years beyond that old crap we had then.

 

[ohnomrbillk]

I wonder if each eye interacts with the half of the brain its in front of differently. in other words if we can process what we see better if both eyes/ both halves of our brain are involved.

Each brain hemisphere sees both eyes.

 

[NateSavannah]

Each brain hemisphere sees both eyes.

View attachment 7385319

Thanks man, that answers my question perfecly. bonus points for doing it with a picture.

 

[TheHorta]

Thanks man, that answers my question perfecly. bonus points for doing it with a picture.

A picture that both sides of your brain saw with each eye.

 

[NateSavannah]

A picture that both sides of your brain saw with each eye.

awful presumptuous for you to think im not wearing my eye patch on a tuesday.

 

[TheHorta]

awful presumptuous for you to think im not wearing my eye patch on a tuesday.

Pirates don’t need binos.

 

[NateSavannah]

Pirates don’t need binos.

weird part is Ive been posted up in my office all morning staring out the window waiting on fedex, to deliver my binos.

 

[JWG]

Do the l3 tubes warrant $3k more than the Elbit thin film? Here is a video, what say you? would one be disappointed with the elbit if you later looked through l3, or is this like nightforce vs. SB glass where SB is nicer, but both are 100% fine to do work?. Functionally lose much real world ability?

 

[Frog05]

@JWG Both options will get it done, guys have been getting work done for a long time now with a lot less capabilities than what the Elbit XLSH's provide.

That being said, you will know notice a difference in performance especially in low light conditions. Now does that performance increase justify the added cost? Thats up to you and your budget.

But if your a buy once, cry once kind of guy then yes, go filmless. The difference will be noticeable, weve had numerous customers that were completely happy with their high spec wp Elbit tubes until they went filmless wp.
-James

 

[jeffl838]

I haven't used elbit tubes, but I've used L3 filmless a ton. L3 filmless is truly amazing because you can have no moon and as long as the area you're walking through isn't heavily canopied, you'll be just fine even without an illuminator. Omni 7-8 is significantly degraded in that environment which I assume is on par with elbit. That being said... unless you think you'll find yourself in that scenario, i don't think it's worth 3k. The only time you can't use an illuminator is when you're trying to outsneak someone who also might have NVG's, so if that's a concern, filmless might be worth it.

 

[JWG]

Where I live, there is zero light pollution . This may factor.

 

[fanninland]

Now that I'm sorta set with thermal (for now) I've been thinking about upgrading an old PVS14 and all it's accoutrements..
To that extent this is a great thread, learnin' so much. Nothing to contribute at this point - just wanted to say thanks ya'll...

 

[JWG]

Wince the tnvc rnvg with elbits is sold out, I'm still waiting/learning. I could get a very solid l3 filmless pvs14 and save $1500 over the rnvgs with blem xlsh. Torn.