Just got on the backorder list for end of January. Great customer service, and a lot cheaper than the Amp. See how it goes, but looks like will do the job.
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Interesting, never had an international shipment go through Memphis, TN before. Also, cleared customs in 45 minutes. I should have it by Monday.
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Test 1 - headstamp detection with mixed 223 (small sample size). Going to set the machine to anneal based off the Lake City ⨁.
5 of each - Lake City, Lake City ⨁ (Lake City with NATO approval mark), PPU (Prvi Partizan), Federal, Remington, WCC (Western Cartridge Company), Wolf
1 or 2 cases of PSD, Hornady, Aguila.
Test 2- mixed 308win cases, Federal, PPU, and maybe one other. Don't have much random 308 brass around.
Test 3 - 223 Lake City, weight sorting (probably only going to do 5 cases).
Test 4 - 308 PPU, weight sorting (probably only going to do 5 cases)
Test 5 - 223 Lake City ⨁, neck turned brass at various increments.
Test 6 - 308 Federal, neck turned brass at various increments.
The first two tests are somewhat pointless but if the machine is capable of detecting a 1% difference between headstamps for a small rifle caliber case, it's likely to be able to detect a 1% difference for a larger case. This would leave me somewhat optimistic about it's capabilities in detecting neck wall thickness variance. I think that anyone who would spend the money and take the time to anneal brass cases would do the bare minimum of sorting their brass by headstamp visually to begin with. As a warning detection system, theoretically useful, if you shoot a lot of similar size cases (6cm and 6.5cm for example).
Weight sorting tests also seem kind of pointless as I don't know anyone who does it, but I do know that some people out in the world do it. Will be weighed in grains with FX120i.
Test 5 and 6 are probably going to be the toughest test to figure out how to structure. A 1% difference when it comes to neck wall thickness is not a lot. For example, 1% of a neck wall with thickness of 0.015" is only 0.00015". The K&M neck turner I have has index marks in 0.0002" increments (more than 1%), and while I can technically set the cutter in between index marks, I don't have a ball micrometer with that fine of a resolution. Unturned necks with neck wall thickness variation (high/low spots) would also be difficult to incorporate in this test I think.
I don't, or rather I have no expectations that the machine is capable of the task.But why do you want to put the machine to this task?
I think you might be setting yourself up for disappointment, and expecting the machine to do something it should never be tasked with doing, namely, sorting your brass for you
Very possible.I would think the shoulder, and the part of the body that is annealed is also going to be included in the calculations, so neck turning may be less of a change than you are thinking?
Yes it can get tedious. Buy a second brass case gripper. Using two makes it go faster. While one is in the machine annealing, you are dumping the case out of the other gripper and then loading it with another caseI did 100 cases by hand with my amp the other day, and well I don’t really mind it. I find it to be somewhat tedious, and would hate to do more than about 100 at a time.
FC | 56% | 57% | 56% | 57% | 55% |
PPU | 53% | 56% | 56% | 55% | 54% |
PMC | 55% | 53% | 53% | 52% | 53% |
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Comes with two 3d printed alignment plates, 1 quick instruction manual, 1 cover, 1 red cap (part of the case size adjustment process), 1 laser cut stamped sheet metal tray that has a sticker film that needs to be removed and 1 power cord. Machine looks nicely made, it sounds like there's liquid sloshing inside and MSDS states it's summer coolant. It's very simple to set up, remove tape, plug it in, flip the rocker switch.
Initial testing with the detection feature - In general, I would say it's not accurate enough to reliably sort the differences in 223 Remington or 308 Winchester cases by headstamp alone. I speculate that for the detection system to function there must be significant amount of difference in the neck/shoulder area either through material thickness or maybe dimensionally (as in same caliber case but fired from different chambers) .
Many of the different headstamp cases that I annealed fell within roughly +/- 1% of each other with only a few headstamps showing clear differences. I believe most if not all were fired through the same chamber which may be a factor in why many headstamps were so close.
I'm probably not going to upload the 223 rem test as the video is long and it was hard to see the headstamps.
Video of the 308 win headstamp test
Test Case - FC results 59%, 5.5 sec
FC - 56%, 57%, 56%, 57%, 55%
PPU - 53%, 56%, 56%, 55%, 54%
PMC - 55%, 53%, 53%, 52%, 53%
There is, what I would call a clear difference between Federal and PMC, but between PPU and Federal, not so much. The cases were from PPU Match 168gr and FGMM 168gr and PMC 148gr.
Overall, it does what I need it to do and I'm satisfied.
Instructions below since there's no pdf online for the machine that I'm aware of.
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Comes with two 3d printed alignment plates, 1 quick instruction manual, 1 cover, 1 red cap (part of the case size adjustment process), 1 laser cut stamped sheet metal tray that has a sticker film that needs to be removed and 1 power cord. Machine looks nicely made, it sounds like there's liquid sloshing inside and MSDS states it's summer coolant. It's very simple to set up, remove tape, plug it in, flip the rocker switch.
Initial testing with the detection feature - In general, I would say it's not accurate enough to reliably sort the differences in 223 Remington or 308 Winchester cases by headstamp alone. I speculate that for the detection system to function there must be significant amount of difference in the neck/shoulder area either through material thickness or maybe dimensionally (as in same caliber case but fired from different chambers) .
Many of the different headstamp cases that I annealed fell within roughly +/- 1% of each other with only a few headstamps showing clear differences. I believe most if not all were fired through the same chamber which may be a factor in why many headstamps were so close.
I'm probably not going to upload the 223 rem test as the video is long and it was hard to see the headstamps.
Video of the 308 win headstamp test (edit - that low humming/buzzing noise is the annealer's fan running)
Test Case - FC results 59%, 5.5 sec
FC - 56%, 57%, 56%, 57%, 55%
PPU - 53%, 56%, 56%, 55%, 54%
PMC - 55%, 53%, 53%, 52%, 53%
There is, what I would call a clear difference between Federal and PMC, but between PPU and Federal, not so much. The cases were from PPU Match 168gr and FGMM 168gr and PMC 148gr.
Overall, it does what I need it to do and I'm satisfied.
Instructions below since there's no pdf online for the machine that I'm aware of.
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$990 tydHow much is this one?
I actually got multiple PMs with similar questions, I figure I'd just post the response publicly.
What does the percentages mean?
According to Quick Anneal the sensors measure the thickness around the neck/shoulder area. Quick Anneal's video, starting around 2 minute 8 seconds. So according to them, it's supposed to display differences between cases.
Edit 2 - screenshot from email
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-out-there-with-reviews.7196152/post-11264086
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The machine after annealing and ejecting a case will give you a percentage at the top of the screen (the display goes away quick so if necessary, you can view the history by holding the Temp up button). The left most percentage is the most recent and the other 3 are the previous 3 annealed cases. Deviation is the percentage difference from the most recent case to the previous case. All the percentages I recorded is to see whether or not the sensors actually work and to what degree.
Annealing case color related questions -
When I did the test case, the glowing of dull orange (camera made it bright orange) is done with the lights that were directly above the annealer turned off. This is done to make sure that I don't overcook the brass case if I don't notice the color transition with the light on (with the naked eye, you barely notice it, and the camera certainly couldn't capture it well). The neck/shoulder of the case will be glowing dull orange in the dark before you even see it with lights on. I let go of the start button (to end test) after the case mouth edge turns dull orange. After the test is complete, it will display the percentage and time.
The time is more important. I subtracted 0.1 seconds from the test time to compensate for reaction time of letting go of the start button and adjusted my anneal times based off that. After running the test, you still have to manually change the anneal time by going into the "Set Heat Time" menu option. The test mode does not auto adjust the heat time, only displays what it was.
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I'll may be able to knock out a case detection/weight sort test today to see if there is any correlation between what the case anomaly detection senses and case weight in grains. The theory is heavier case = more material somewhere (not necessarily in the neck/shoulder).
The one I will for sure get to eventually is the neck wall thickness test. If the machine is capable, this would probably be more useful for people who don't want to neck turn but is willing to sort cases into various percentage groups.
Case 1 | 54% (3.7) | 53% (3.9) | 52% (3.7) |
Case 2 | 54% (3.7) | 53% (3.7) | 53% (3.7) |
Case 3 | 54% (3.5) | 53% (3.4) | 53% (3.4) |
Case 4 | 54% (3.8) | 53% (3.8) | 52% (3.6) |
Case 5 | 53% (3.8) | 53% (3.8) | 53% (3.8) |
90.3 | 53% |
90.36 | 53% |
90.5 | 52% |
90.5 | 52% |
90.66 | 52% |
90.72 | 52% |
91.02 | 52% |
91.06 | 52% |
91.16 | 52% |
91.2 | 52% |
Wolf 93.8 | 50% |
Wolf 94.3 | 49% |
Not disappointed at all. Had no expectations of its anomaly detection capabilities and now (we all) have a clearer idea of what the limitations are as compared to the broad/vague/(mildly exaggerated?) marketing claims.I said before you were setting yourself up for disappointment. It was not designed for the use you intended
So what would be your overall conclusion on the working’s on this annealer? It seems to do his job just fine, like other induction ones? Or should one spend the extra $ for the amp? I surly like the operating procedures, like feed and dropping off the cases.Not disappointed at all. Had no expectations of its anomaly detection capabilities and now (we all) have a clearer idea of what the limitations are as compared to the broad/vague/(mildly exaggerated?) marketing claims.
Would you pay regular price for the AMP with no certs?As much as I like the auto feature of the quick anneal. Not to mention it’s cheaper than the amp. If I’m spending time and money to anneal. I want it to be precise-annealed back to factory hardness. While consistency is important. I would rather pay a little more to know the machine is annealing back to the virgin brass hardness, every time consistently. I ended up using a $400 off amp certificate and buying the AMP for $1195. $1295 with 4 pilots and an extra brass case holder ( to speed up the feeding process). I figured what’s an extra $300. If I decide I don’t like it . Given what I paid I could sell it for what I have into it.
Does it just fine like the other induction annealers. In my limited experience with both machines Quick Anneal > Amp.So what would be your overall conclusion on the working’s on this annealer? It seems to do his job just fine, like other induction ones? Or should one spend the extra $ for the amp? I surly like the operating procedures, like feed and dropping off the cases.
Thank you again for sharing!
Is that good or bad in your opinion and why?I’ve sacrificed a dozen or Lapua 65 PRC brass in Aztec in addition to other cases and cartridges. I’ve gotten a range of numbers sometimes near a 10 point range. It’s rare that I get the same number more than twice.
Here’s five PRC cases.
0196, 0194, 0198, 195, 191
“Perfect” every time….just different!I’ve sacrificed a dozen or so Lapua 65 PRC brass in Aztec in addition to other cases and cartridges. I’ve gotten a range of numbers sometimes near a 10 point range. It’s rare that I get the same number more than twice.
Here’s five PRC cases.
0191, 0195, 0194, 0196, 0198
How hot do you think an induction coil that will melt brass can get your brass? Hot enough to anneal it?I simply don't know what to think of people who WON'T READ a simple evaluation test that's repeatable and Verified . Just Try and COMPREHEND the Results .
He even made High resolution pictures for those whom are illiterate !. You're simply restoring ductility but NOT aligning or growing grain structure ,thus it's NOT annealing . Everyone just says it is , making Brass or other metal softer Isn't True Annealing . Atoms must slip between or atoms diffuse from the inside to the outside
Figure 9: The fully annealed specimen was cold reduced 50% in thickness. Then, CR specimens were annealed for 30 minutes at 500, 700, 800, 900 and 1300°F. Cross sections were prepared metallographically and 100 HV indents at 100 gf load were made in each. The plot shows the distribution of HV values for each specimen.
https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html
Figures 6 and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50%, annealed at 427°C (800°F): 4 minutes did not visibly affect the cold worked grain structure (note heavy slip lines); 8 minutes has produced the start of recrystallization. Tint etched with Klemm’s I (Originals at 100X, crossed polarized light (off crossed) plus sensitive tint).
Call it what you will ,I don't because it ISN'T . Factual info can't be dismissed .
How hot do you think an induction coil that will melt brass can get your brass? Hot enough to anneal it?
It takes less than 10 seconds for my AMP to fully melt a case neck, and I can still pick it up by the case head.Plenty hot enough ,however TIME is required as well as Heat . Hence where in the problem lies . In order for Grain lattice or Re- crystallization to actually begin is FAR above any usable brass cartridge case temp .
The " Only " possible way would be wrapping the case body and circulating cold fluid around it ,to arrest the induction heating process .
NOT practical IMO .
It takes less than 10 seconds for my AMP to fully melt a case neck, and I can still pick it up by the case head.
Next.
Did you fail to read? If it’s liquified, it’s gone totally past being annealed. If it liquifies in ten seconds, it anneals at less than ten seconds.Did YOU fail to read ? I'll highlight the emphasis ON TIME REQUIRED** . Making brass softer ISN'T true annealing ,it's simply restoring the metals ductility . Yet in order to truly anneal some if not all of the metal requires re-crystallization , this needs to occur and that DOESN'T happen in seconds !. I didn't invent or make the science up ,it's a KNOWN fact . People in the industry simply misuse the term ,as they misuse Boxer primer origin .
It's happens ,what is a thing a ma jig ?. Pull the doohickey ,slide the gizmo !. Now are those proper terms ,NO yet WE all except them in context of reference don't we .
Fyi : 2-3 seconds at proper temperature 756 Deg. F and above WILL soften brass and restore ductility but WON'T anneal it .
The simplest way I can PROVE this point is : Do what You consider cartridge annealing ,then send YOUR brass into an analytical lab and have them examine Your cartridge and see IF they say it's annealed !. I learned via the hard way working in Aerospace ,they cut you ZERO slack and slam home FACTS . As peoples lives depend upon it .
** Figures 6 and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50%, annealed at 427°C (800°F): 4 minutes did not visibly affect the cold worked grain structure (note heavy slip lines); 8 minutes has produced the start of re-crystallization. Tint etched with Klemm’s I (Originals at 100X, crossed polarized light (off crossed) plus sensitive tint).
I ordered one 10 days ago. Arrived today. Better service then some companies here in the US. Looks good and packaged well. Thanks for your testing and report.I've got a Quick Anneal enroute. I'm most interested in using it with the case feeder. I do very large batches of annealing. I'm not keen on 'guessing' at the time based on color compared to the AMP telling me a number. But, if I 'test' a bunch of cases and come up with an average time to start with I don't think I'll be in bad shape.
So if we have an amp and amp mate, you'd say we should stick with what we have? Am I understanding this right? If you don't have an amp and a mate, then this would be a good option for you to feed cases and automate your annealing? Is that your opinion? Thanks for all the info, really appreciated!It's slower than the AMP MATE with the case feeder. I'd say it's about 10s per case. You gotta be careful to ensure the next case doesn't come too quickly.
Here's a pic of a quick setup where I can use an akro bin to catch a whole lot more cases than the tray that came with it.
Did you fail to read? If it’s liquified, it’s gone totally past being annealed. If it liquifies in ten seconds, it anneals at less than ten seconds.Did YOU fail to read ? I'll highlight the emphasis ON TIME REQUIRED** . Making brass softer ISN'T true annealing ,it's simply restoring the metals ductility . Yet in order to truly anneal some if not all of the metal requires re-crystallization , this needs to occur and that DOESN'T happen in seconds !. I didn't invent or make the science up ,it's a KNOWN fact . People in the industry simply misuse the term ,as they misuse Boxer primer origin .
It's happens ,what is a thing a ma jig ?. Pull the doohickey ,slide the gizmo !. Now are those proper terms ,NO yet WE all except them in context of reference don't we .
Fyi : 2-3 seconds at proper temperature 756 Deg. F and above WILL soften brass and restore ductility but WON'T anneal it .
The simplest way I can PROVE this point is : Do what You consider cartridge annealing ,then send YOUR brass into an analytical lab and have them examine Your cartridge and see IF they say it's annealed !. I learned via the hard way working in Aerospace ,they cut you ZERO slack and slam home FACTS . As peoples lives depend upon it .
** Figures 6 and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50%, annealed at 427°C (800°F): 4 minutes did not visibly affect the cold worked grain structure (note heavy slip lines); 8 minutes has produced the start of re-crystallization. Tint etched with Klemm’s I (Originals at 100X, crossed polarized light (off crossed) plus sensitive tint).
If you wanted to go through the trouble of watching for the flash use 2 bins and make a catch tray/shelf on a pivot. Turn to drop in the pass or cull bins as needed. I suppose this is something QA could have automated but would add to the price.I’ve only run 50 or so cases with the feeder on the QA. I think once it’s dialed in it has fewer hiccups. It’s less finicky in having to be perfectly set up.
With the setup pictured above, I had one case stick above the blue adapter at the upper end of the hose at the feeder. I chamfered the blue adapter a bit more and didn’t have another feed issue there.
I need to heat the tube to get it bent just right. It’s pretty stiff and has a bend I can bend out.
I did notice 3 or 4 of my Lapua Creed cases flashed showing a larger deviation from the others. Could be different lots, I guess. It’s nice to know but means nothing when the case falls in the box of other cases. No idea which one it was.
If you have the case feed moving too fast and it drops another cases before the annealer has dropped the last case it will drop both those case through the annealer with the last one not annealed. Again, you’ll not know which one that is other than the fact it won’t be scalding hot like the others.
<edit> I don’t know if there is a way to default to auto anneal. I’ll never run it without auto anneal and don’t want to flip through the menu to set it each time. I sent them an email requesting that be a feature in case I’m missing how that’s down now.
When I have time, I will run the QA with feeder and AMPMATE side by side and get a video.