PRS Talk Rebarreling production rifle

[Afkirby]

Just wondering what the rules are for rebarreling a production class rifle. I saw that the John Hancock rifle will have OEM replacement barrels available, but what happens when you burn out your barrel on your Ruger or Tikka? Are you forced to rebarrel into open class?

Thanks!
-Kirby

 

[Sheldon N]

If you've shot that much, you should make the jump to open class regardless of the rules.

 

[DFC]

Ruger will rebarrel any rifle they make and at a reasonable price.

 

[Afkirby]

If you've shot that much, you should make the jump to open class regardless of the rules.

I’ve not shot a PRS match yet, getting a rifle ready currently. Just curious as to how it would work out.

 

[308pirate]

That is a legitimate question. One which apparently hasn't been thought through by the rule makers, and whose answer can't only be "just shoot open".

 

[Afkirby]

With factory 6.5’s and 6mm’s I’d imagine a serious competitor could burn through a barrel in a season or less.

 

[Sheldon N]

I’ve not shot a PRS match yet, getting a rifle ready currently. Just curious as to how it would work out.

I put a smiley face, but it was a pretty serious answer. If you've shot a bunch of matches and practiced enough to send 3k rounds down range, you're thousands of dollars into the sport just in ammo and match fees. You'll have made friends at competitions, you'll have gotten better, you'll have the itch to try new gear, and I highly doubt you'll have any interest left in production division.

 

[MarkCO]

With factory 6.5’s and 6mm’s I’d imagine a serious competitor could burn through a barrel in a season or less.

The purpose of the Production Division is to provide new shooters an opportunity to experience a PRS competition without being intimidated by highly customized rifles and the highly skilled shooters that shoot them. This division is meant to give a newcomer to the PRS a chance to test his/her skills against competitors of a similar skill level and weapons of similar quality. Whenever possible, all efforts should be made to ensure the Production Division shooters equipment is within the rules of that Division.

A serious competitor should not be in Production. If you shoot out a barrel, you have enough shooting under your belt that you should not be in Production. The rule might be soft, and need a rewrite, but the intent is clear, it is for "newcomers" only.

 

[308pirate]

"Intent" and "spirit of the rule" is how IDPA devolved into a shitfest of local rules, confusing enforcement, just plain stupidity (like the Failure to Do Right penalty) and endless forum arguments about how to use foot fault lines

Don't be IDPA.

 

[fdkay]

The purpose of the Production Division is to provide new shooters an opportunity to experience a PRS competition without being intimidated by highly customized rifles and the highly skilled shooters that shoot them. This division is meant to give a newcomer to the PRS a chance to test his/her skills against competitors of a similar skill level and weapons of similar quality. Whenever possible, all efforts should be made to ensure the Production Division shooters equipment is within the rules of that Division.

A serious competitor should not be in Production. If you shoot out a barrel, you have enough shooting under your belt that you should not be in Production. The rule might be soft, and need a rewrite, but the intent is clear, it is for "newcomers" only.

I don't know about that.
Production could also be for the folks that want to shoot, but can't afford a custom rifle.
Or, maybe they aren't gear queers and want to shoot with minimal equipment.
Or, maybe they want to shoot in production class and don't want to be involved in an arms race.
They SHOULD make some sort of exception for a rebarrel, but a rebarrel normally entails an accurization, truing, etc... and should, of course, automatically be an open classification.
So, how do you police it?
If you were to get an aftermarket barrel in the same profile of the original factory barrel, is that cheating? Who would know?
If you can do it with the Hancock, why can't you do it with a Savage or Ruger?
Let's face it, aftermarket barrels WILL improve accuracy. But, by how much? If you are shooting steel plates that are 3 moa in size (just a figure I pulled out of my ass), does improving accuracy from .75 moa to .5 moa make that much of a difference in hitting a steel plate? The RPR I shoot is a consistent .75 moa rifle.
Personally, I think that if you wish to stay in a certain division, shoot in the tactical division. The only rules that apply are caliber, bullet weight and speed, not equipment. You can rebarrel and accurize to your hearts content, but be competitive with an off the shelf factory rifle.

 

[308pirate]

If you can do it with the Hancock, why can't you do it with a Savage or Ruger?

A good point

 

[jlsustala]

if you have the manufacture replace the barrel with a factory replacemnt barrel you can shoot in production just dont be a sand bagger

 

[bohem]

If you were to get an aftermarket barrel in the same profile of the original factory barrel, is that cheating? Who would know?
If you can do it with the Hancock, why can't you do it with a Savage or Ruger?

You can't do it with a Hancock unless you're a quite determined and well equipped shop.
To keep a Hancock in production you need to buy Hancock OEM replacement barrels just like if you called up Ruger or Savage and bought a factory replacement barrel. THey do sell them.

Someone can copy the Hancock contour readily enough, it's a Medium Palma, but that's not special in any way.
Unless they also copy the engraving pocket, font, size, location and text with a CNC mill then it's probably going to look strange although it could be done. There's a way to copy anything that someone wants to copy hard enough. There are limits to what can be done to police that but we are doing the best we can by making it a relatively unique looking engraving, a unique font, font size and position, and depth into the steel.

I will yield that fact that someone determined enough could copy it. If someone feels strongly enough about trying to cheat that way I suspect that they're going to try to cheat in other ways first.

There are guys currently shooting production class with Savage rifles and buying Savage take offs and Savage replacement factory barrels all the time. I've even sold Savage take offs for the cost of shipping to a number of them across the country.

 

[fdkay]

You can't do it with a Hancock unless you're a quite determined and well equipped shop.
To keep a Hancock in production you need to buy Hancock OEM replacement barrels just like if you called up Ruger or Savage and bought a factory replacement barrel. THey do sell them.

Someone can copy the Hancock contour readily enough, it's a Medium Palma, but that's not special in any way.
Unless they also copy the engraving pocket, font, size, location and text with a CNC mill then it's probably going to look strange although it could be done. There's a way to copy anything that someone wants to copy hard enough. There are limits to what can be done to police that but we are doing the best we can by making it a relatively unique looking engraving, a unique font, font size and position, and depth into the steel.

I will yield that fact that someone determined enough could copy it. If someone feels strongly enough about trying to cheat that way I suspect that they're going to try to cheat in other ways first.

There are guys currently shooting production class with Savage rifles and buying Savage take offs and Savage replacement factory barrels all the time. I've even sold Savage take offs for the cost of shipping to a number of them across the country.

The point I guess is this:
The Hancock does not use mass produced button rifled or hammer forged barrels, they use custom cut rifle barrels from rock creek.
When you consider the fairly limited number of guns being produced, calling them "production rifles" is a bit of a stretch.
If I were to order a Nucleus action, rock creek barrel, timney trigger and have LRI put it together and install it in a KRG bravo chassis, can I call that a production rifle as well? They build guns all day, every day, so they can be considered a production facility.
If not,why not? That is the exact same component list as the JH, assembled with similar level of expertise.
If I can have a gunsmith installed Rock Creek barrel on my JH, why can't I have one on my Remington?
I have no skin in the game, these are just questions.
They have found a loophole and are exploiting it. I don't have a problem with that.
Most games that have a production class, require a minimum number of units produced to qualify for the class.

 

[Codiekfx400]

The Hancock is not a cut rock creek barrel it is a button rifled rock creek barrel. Mpa has a pcr rifle that has some awesome specs as far as (custom) rifles go and nobody has a problem with that pcr rifle. My opinion of the John Hancock is it's a awesome value and a great step forward for all rifle men rich or poor. Let the rifles be accurate and the men learn how to drive them. Sounds like fun to me. And besides all of that now you can get a 6 br or dasher rifle already assembled and ready to go ??

 

[bohem]

The point I guess is this:
The Hancock does not use mass produced button rifled or hammer forged barrels, they use custom cut rifle barrels from rock creek.
When you consider the fairly limited number of guns being produced, calling them "production rifles" is a bit of a stretch.
If I were to order a Nucleus action, rock creek barrel, timney trigger and have LRI put it together and install it in a KRG bravo chassis, can I call that a production rifle as well? They build guns all day, every day, so they can be considered a production facility.
If not,why not? That is the exact same component list as the JH, assembled with similar level of expertise.
If I can have a gunsmith installed Rock Creek barrel on my JH, why can't I have one on my Remington?
I have no skin in the game, these are just questions.
They have found a loophole and are exploiting it. I don't have a problem with that.
Most games that have a production class, require a minimum number of units produced to qualify for the class.

You're missing a fundamental part about ITAR registration, Excise Tax and being the Manufacturer of Record.
I will lay it out in a more concise form since these are the same questions that were hashed out ad nauseum on the PRS Facebook page and they responded with the same things:


The rules have 2 ruling precedents against using a custom barreled Rem 700 or any other "factory" action that's not branded by the company producing the rifle. If a company is not the Manufacturer of Record for the receiver then it's not eligible in Production. End of Conversation.

Remington "makes" the 700... not every 700 that has been marked as such has been made in their doors. That's why there is a "marking variance" and that's how the Hancock actions are being produced. This is hardly anything new in the firearms industry. This is also why MPA was not allowed to make the PCR with a 700 receiver or a Savage receiver and have a PC legal rifle for the PRS.

PVA is the MoR for the JHR receiver. THat is the first hurdle.
Next is the price point and having a product that is worth paying for. I don't think anyone is arguing the value proposition of the JHR at this point.

The "minimum quantity" numbers are there for a stop gap measure that very large places are held to making enough guns that any normal customer can get them. This isn't new to firearms either, automotive and boats have this too in competition circles. However where it's never argued about is the size of the business. Everyone knows that Glock (for sake of argument) could make 500 guns and just give them away at "production class price" to a tiny portion of only their sponsored guys.

On the other hand, a company like mine would be able to afford to do that for about 5 people total. Since there are a lot more than 5 people with JHR's on order that argument is pretty moot. We aren't artificially limiting production in any way, the more people want them the more I'll grow in capacity to fill orders. It is that simple.

You can't have a gunsmith install a Rock Creek on your JHR, it must be a production barrel. Doing so is outside the rules per Production Class. Considering the price tag I'm listing the replacement barrels for I hardly think we're doing anything unreasonable by being the sole offering of replacement barrels for this particular model. Remington is the sole replacement entity for 700's in Production as is Savage, MPA, Ruger, etc. THat's why it is an OEM product.

In the end, we are the first ones to really push the class forward at this level. We're not going to be the only ones and I suspect that in 12-18 months the class and the sport as a whole will see a large influx of new shooters that get involved. That's why I'm doing this, we want to see the sport grow. I can't intentionally bankrupt myself doing it but we are trying very hard to make the sport more affordable for folks, new or experienced alike.

I really don't understand why there is such animosity and controversy for a product that provides an excellent value to the customer and is designed to encourage more customers to enter the market.

 

[fdkay]

You're missing a fundamental part about ITAR registration, Excise Tax and being the Manufacturer of Record.
I will lay it out in a more concise form since these are the same questions that were hashed out ad nauseum on the PRS Facebook page and they responded with the same things:


The rules have 2 ruling precedents against using a custom barreled Rem 700 or any other "factory" action that's not branded by the company producing the rifle. If a company is not the Manufacturer of Record for the receiver then it's not eligible in Production. End of Conversation.

Remington "makes" the 700... not every 700 that has been marked as such has been made in their doors. That's why there is a "marking variance" and that's how the Hancock actions are being produced. This is hardly anything new in the firearms industry. This is also why MPA was not allowed to make the PCR with a 700 receiver or a Savage receiver and have a PC legal rifle for the PRS.

PVA is the MoR for the JHR receiver. THat is the first hurdle.
Next is the price point and having a product that is worth paying for. I don't think anyone is arguing the value proposition of the JHR at this point.

The "minimum quantity" numbers are there for a stop gap measure that very large places are held to making enough guns that any normal customer can get them. This isn't new to firearms either, automotive and boats have this too in competition circles. However where it's never argued about is the size of the business. Everyone knows that Glock (for sake of argument) could make 500 guns and just give them away at "production class price" to a tiny portion of only their sponsored guys.

On the other hand, a company like mine would be able to afford to do that for about 5 people total. Since there are a lot more than 5 people with JHR's on order that argument is pretty moot. We aren't artificially limiting production in any way, the more people want them the more I'll grow in capacity to fill orders. It is that simple.

You can't have a gunsmith install a Rock Creek on your JHR, it must be a production barrel. Doing so is outside the rules per Production Class. Considering the price tag I'm listing the replacement barrels for I hardly think we're doing anything unreasonable by being the sole offering of replacement barrels for this particular model. Remington is the sole replacement entity for 700's in Production as is Savage, MPA, Ruger, etc. THat's why it is an OEM product.

In the end, we are the first ones to really push the class forward at this level. We're not going to be the only ones and I suspect that in 12-18 months the class and the sport as a whole will see a large influx of new shooters that get involved. That's why I'm doing this, we want to see the sport grow. I can't intentionally bankrupt myself doing it but we are trying very hard to make the sport more affordable for folks, new or experienced alike.

I really don't understand why there is such animosity and controversy for a product that provides an excellent value to the customer and is designed to encourage more customers to enter the market.

Don't misunderstand me, I am thrilled that you have seen a niche opening and walked through it. I have no animosity towards the endeavor whatsoever.
That is what capitalism is about. Find a need or desire, develop a product that meets that and become successful.
I wish you all the luck in the world and honestly hope you succeed.
As I said, I don't have a dog in this fight, I am merely taking part in the conversation.
I just believe that your offering is much more than a "production rifle". Just like a NASCAR car is not really a stock car, although the name of the organization is the National Association of Stock Car Racing.
My point is this, your components are all available off the shelf. I can buy the same action, the same trigger, the same stock and a barrel with identical attributes from the same manufacturer, but if I put it together myself, it is a custom rifle and I shoot in a different class.

I remember when they were actually cars that were produced by the companies.

 

[MarkCO]

I don't know about that.
Production could also be for the folks that want to shoot, but can't afford a custom rifle.

Maybe it could have been, but (did you actually read the italicised QUOTE from the PRS rulebook in my post) it is not. Words have meaning. Not that your comment does not have merit, but that needs to go to the folks at PRS. I sent them some similar comments, as well as several other comments over the last few years. For the most part, the replies have been..."Thank-you", and a few times followed up later with. "We should have listened to you." I have seen very little understanding of the bigger picture from PRS. They appear to be following a business model that I do not believe is sustainable. We have seen the same paths in action pistol more recently in 3Gun. For some reason, folks don't seem to learn from the past sport shooting organizations successes and failures.

 

[bohem]

My point is this, your components are all available off the shelf. I can buy the same action, the same trigger, the same stock and a barrel with identical attributes from the same manufacturer, but if I put it together myself, it is a custom rifle and I shoot in a different class.

While that's almost true (you can't get exactly what my OEM barrels are but you could buy a blank that performs the same) there is no control or oversight, it is a free for all if that's allowed. Not that the rules aren't already very open but people can write anything they want on the outside of a barrel and claim it to be production. The waterline of requiring someone to be a Manufacturer of Record and pay Excise gives some modicum of controllability within that realm because the paperwork to make such changes are onerous when you look at the ATF requirements and the Liability Insurance requirements. By all means the Insurance is more onerous than the ATF's paperwork but the fact remains that it still requires a paper trail.

On top of all that, if you do buy all the parts at MSRP and put them together it costs you more than the complete rifle does. So there's no incentive to do that either.

 

[fdkay]

While that's almost true (you can't get exactly what my OEM barrels are but you could buy a blank that performs the same) there is no control or oversight, it is a free for all if that's allowed. Not that the rules aren't already very open but people can write anything they want on the outside of a barrel and claim it to be production. The waterline of requiring someone to be a Manufacturer of Record and pay Excise gives some modicum of controllability within that realm because the paperwork to make such changes are onerous when you look at the ATF requirements and the Liability Insurance requirements. By all means the Insurance is more onerous than the ATF's paperwork but the fact remains that it still requires a paper trail.

On top of all that, if you do buy all the parts at MSRP and put them together it costs you more than the complete rifle does. So there's no incentive to do that either.

I'm sure it is quite a bit more expensive, but folks will do some stupid crap for bragging rights.
I think they should either visit getting rid of the "production" class or look into the rules that others have used for success.
Either way, you are offering a well priced, well thought out design and should be successful either way.

 

[bohem]

I'm sure it is quite a bit more expensive, but folks will do some stupid crap for bragging rights.
I think they should either visit getting rid of the "production" class or look into the rules that others have used for success.
Either way, you are offering a well priced, well thought out design and should be successful either way.

Thank you, that is the aim. High value to dollar ratio product that helps new folks get involved.

I'll agree that it isn't perfect however I'm not a huge fan of many of the other "production" classes that are out there, especially some of the dumbassery that goes around in IDPA.

Production here has a price limit and some basic criteria for making the rifle available to folks. It isn't perfect but I think it's a darn good step in the right direction. For club level shooters the class is pretty popular based on the Club Series matches that I support in various regions around the country as well as the local Club Series that we shoot in my backyard, one that I was part of since it became a series instead of just a couple semi-monthly matches at a local club.

I think killing the Production Class is not a good idea for guys that are limited in budget. Based on many combined experiences in motor racing and pistol competitions the idea of Production Class can make or a break a sport. Right now "Open" and "Tactical" are the heavy hitters in national matches. Production doesn't even pique the interest of most matches to the point that few even make a trophy for it. But in the club realm where new folks are entering the sport every day it's still working.

 

[Sheldon N]

Production here has a price limit and some basic criteria for making the rifle available to folks. It isn't perfect but I think it's a darn good step in the right direction. For club level shooters the class is pretty popular based on the Club Series matches that I support in various regions around the country as well as the local Club Series that we shoot in my backyard, one that I was part of since it became a series instead of just a couple semi-monthly matches at a local club.

Out here in the Northwest none of our PRS club level matches track Production division, or even Tactical division for that matter. Just got to run what you have.

 

[bohem]

Out here in the Northwest none of our PRS club level matches track Production division, or even Tactical division for that matter. Just got to run what you have.

If you don't have enough people to run it then it doesn't make sense. In 2015 we didn't really have the need to run it so we didn't. Not enough shooters and why create a class nobody would participate in? We didn't locally until the class was created and when it was created we got a large influx of new folks shooting rack rifles. In 2015 we had 3/65 people that would qualify for Production class in the series, we didn't run the class but we queried the group of folks and figured out what would happen. In 2016 it was 3x higher when we opened the class up as a trial for the year, and in 2017 we had 6 or 7 production shooters in the Finale which was Invite Only to the top 40 total with a total group of production shooters topping 25 entrants from appx 150 people.

My point being that unless it's tried then you may not know how it will work and when we tried it in the Mid Atlantic region we got shooters from Virginia to New Hampshire showing up with RPR's, Savages, Howas, and of course custom built rifles to shoot club matches. It was a success the last 2 years and in 2018 we're doing it again. We are also running a ProAm with experienced guys helping new shooters to get through a match, try things, coach a little, and have a good time. That helps grow the sport too.

 

[Sheldon N]

Our regional season scores and tracking are all done through the national PRS website, and as best I can tell they don't track the production or tactical division at the club level. Not sure if that's going to change or not.

 

[ra2bach]

I put a smiley face, but it was a pretty serious answer. If you've shot a bunch of matches and practiced enough to send 3k rounds down range, you're thousands of dollars into the sport just in ammo and match fees. You'll have made friends at competitions, you'll have gotten better, you'll have the itch to try new gear, and I highly doubt you'll have any interest left in production division.

what if you bought the rifle used? or you used it for another sport or hunting. how about we just answer the question as asked?