Rifle Position / Collar Bone

[Pete B]

Anybody have any feedback regarding placing the rifle butt closer to the centre line of your body, as per some of the Scott Satterlee / Phil V instructional vids?
Rather than the traditional shoulder pocket position......

Going to give it a go either way, but just playing around dry firing it does seem easier to square up behind the rifle barricade wise. As yet I have no rounds down range yet.

Appreciate any feedback. If this has been discussed before, my bad let me know.
Pete

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yes, this is the current way it’s taught by most reputable instructors. The closer to your centerline, the better.

You may require higher rings though as your head will be more vertical.

 

[Pete B]

Thanks for the feedback. Actually have what would be consider higher rings already (38mm). For the very reason you stated. Looks like I will need to give this a serious try.
Cheers
Pete

 

[Steel head]

Higher rings and possibly a higher butt pad position depending on its shape.

 

[Jack Master]

You'll likely see smaller groups and more consistent groups at distance. Plus managing recoil and spotting your shots is easier. Give it a go. You'll like it once you get used to it, but it does take some getting used too.

 

[Jack Master]

Check this post out. Video #2 (3rd in post) about the difference between the pocket with kicks most shooters of the to side and being on the collarbone where you can get straight behind the rifle.

I just posted Part 3 of The Science of Recoil on YouTube. It goes into how accuracy is affected by recoil. Thanks to Precision Underground for giving me some feedback - though it did cost me most of my Friday incorporating it!



Parts 1 and 2:

Link to YouTube Video

 

[smoothy8500]

possibly a higher butt pad position depending on its shape.

Getting the butt higher increases comfort and resist sliding down on recoil.

 

[b6graham]

tons of benefits. recoil. trace. follow up.

unless you're one of those i need my 42mm obj scope touching the barrel type guys

 

[Paul1262]

Check this post out. Video #2 (3rd in post) about the difference between the pocket with kicks most shooters of the to side and being on the collarbone where you can get straight behind the rifle.


Thanks for the video - very well presented.

Link to YouTube Video

 

[Eric32]

So I have been wanting to ask about this for a while since i haven't been able to get out and test it with live ammo.

So I been dry firing on my 60 yard target out back painted a quarter size on the plate in red.

I have noticed that on barricade if the butt pad is about 3 inches lower than sitting flush. Is alot better stability wise.

And in the prone about a half butt pad high is equally comfortable.

So my question is, it is beneficial to have it in that position. If feel like I can get more pad area in the pocket.


Picture attach on barricade for reference.

 

[smoothy8500]

I have noticed that on barricade if the butt pad is about 3 inches lower than sitting flush. Is alot better stability wise.

And in the prone about a half butt pad high is equally comfortable.

So my question is, it is beneficial to have it in that position. If feel like I can get more pad area in the pocket.

The lowered buttpad definitely helps with fit and control when you are more upright such as standing, kneeling, or crouched behind a barricade. The high buttpad is more for extended prone shooting such as an F-class or strictly prone. Since it may not be convenient to constantly re-adjust the buttpad for every event, you'll have to decide if you want to leave it neutral or slightly lowered for an "all-around" position.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Unless it’s a quick adjust butt pad, leave it for the position/s you shoot the most.

If you’re mainly shooting off things, leave it low. If not, adjust it to fit you better in the position you are mostly in. This is the same for setting eye relief for your optic.

I personally set my prs rifles up for barricade/prop shooting. You’re more erect (giggity) in these positions, so my optic is either back and my butt pad is lower. It’s not ideal for prone, but I shoot so little prone with those rifles, I can make it work.

If you have a quick adjust butt pad, then just adjust it on the fly.

 

[Eric32]

I have a quick adjust pad so I can change it between stages if needed. I think I'm going to make a reference marks for prone and barricade settings so I can adjust in-between stages

My main reason for the question was to basically validate the lower butt pad position for shooting. Wanted to double check myself.

 

[Eric32]

So I ran a experiment today with the settings on the pad to help with muzzle rise as I was shooting.

The rifle is a hammer, the ammo was a friend old load development pack from copper creek. I zeroed with it and gained some expectations of the rifle and it shoots very well with the green band ammo. I was able to get a true 1 hold 5 rd group.

So I then moved to factory SRP Federal 107smk ammo @3080 fps.

I tried different pad heights to test this out. Low is below the bore moving to high above the bore.

All of this done on a barricade, fortune cookie. The rifle was pinched when my hand onto the bag and the fore end of the rifle it's a cadex chassis.

My wobble was about .2 mils on a 500 yard IPSC with a reference waterline.

Lowest pad position = alot of muzzle rise almost 3 IPSC targets above

Neutral position= about 1 target high

Higher buttpad = resulted in on target and able to see splash.

Still have more testing to accomplish but I also think that the lowest pad resulted in a heavy head pressure and that influenced the stock under recoil. As I moved the pad higher that gave less pressure on the pad.

 

[smoothy8500]

Interesting. That doesn't match my experience, but the results show why trying out different settings is necessary.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Interesting. That doesn't match my experience, but the results show why trying out different settings is necessary.

Same. I usually see better results from prone with high pad and better from supported positions like standing on a barricade with low pad.

 

[Eric32]

I need to do some more testing I am gonna take take 10 rounds per pad positions.

But I will be testing again this weekend I'll report back with better test.

I wonder if I am getting my weight more inline with the higher buttpad and I am not doing the same with the lower pad.

But this is why we need to test everything.

 

[Baron23]

I need to do some more testing I am gonna take take 10 rounds per pad positions.

But I will be testing again this weekend I'll report back with better test.

I wonder if I am getting my weight more inline with the higher buttpad and I am not doing the same with the lower pad.

But this is why we need to test everything.

Its sort of a common understanding in high gun shotgun sports (like skeet) that as you move the pad downward you increase the distance between the line of force and the pivot point on your shoulder.

That is, the muzzle wil tend to pop up a bit more.

Didn't stop any of us from dropping our pad down for good high gun mount fit, but it doesn't surprise me that you are seeing a bit more muzzle jump.

 

[Eric32]

ill be loading up some load development ammo and then some practice ammo, @Dthomas3523 taking your practice/load development post to heart.

But ill be loading some starter 6 creed loads at around 38gr of H4350 with 105gr RDFs. ill start testing from the lowest up to the highest pad positions with 6 rds each to get a idea of where i need to be all test will be done at 100 yards with 3 shots and then IPSC at 500ish and change for sight picture test. ill try to keep the shoulder pressure the same for every shot and see how it ends up.

 

[Steel head]

Same. I usually see better results from prone with high pad and better from supported positions like standing on a barricade with low pad.

Same

 

[Eric32]

I decided not to shoot my load development today since I wasn't 100% sure I was getting enough tension on my brass which I wasn't and the ES showed that today. I found the problem swapped the Wilson .268 bushing for a Redding .268 and it has measure more consistent than what I had

On to the test I shot the lowest pad position I felt comfortable still some pretty good muzzle rise but not bad. Then it dawned on me I am putting a lot of pressure on the cheek piece? maybe,

So I set it to the lowest position still comfortable and remained on target thru recoil at 20X from the Razor HD. spotting my shots on target

Then moved on to the next pad height about .75 inch or so up and repeated, a little bit better maybe not.

Then 1.5 inch above and it got a little bit better but nothing crazy.

and then I moved to the upside extreme and it was able to make out on the plate where it impacted.

So all in all it was basically attribute to having too much cheek pressure that was giving me the stupid muzzle flip. So it up to be about 1inch of pad above the normal flush setting. To work with Prone and barricade position so I don't have to adjust between stages. The less i have to mess with the better.

So what starts as a butt pad position ended up at a cheek pressure problem.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Any pics or diagrams for this technique?

 

[DJL2]

In my quest to dial in my -06 and 7mm RM this doesn’t seem much a question...giving the rifle a go at my collar bone does not seem a great idea. Is this more a light recoil and competition thing?

Maybe I’m a wuss, but I put my “real” rifles on the shoulder. My KRG SOTIC and ARs can go anywhere. Just curious as to if I’m missing something critical to properly center lining a gun.

 

[Dthomas3523]

In my quest to dial in my -06 and 7mm RM this doesn’t seem much a question...giving the rifle a go at my collar bone does not seem a great idea. Is this more a light recoil and competition thing?

Maybe I’m a wuss, but I put my “real” rifles on the shoulder. My KRG SOTIC and ARs can go anywhere. Just curious as to if I’m missing something critical to properly center lining a gun.

Put it on your collar bone. You’ll be fine.

You’re not giving the rifle a running start (if you are, that’s the problem). So it’s not “hitting” your collar bone. It’s already on the bone, so now it’s just pushing you.

 

[Dthomas3523]

In my quest to dial in my -06 and 7mm RM this doesn’t seem much a question...giving the rifle a go at my collar bone does not seem a great idea. Is this more a light recoil and competition thing?

Maybe I’m a wuss, but I put my “real” rifles on the shoulder. My KRG SOTIC and ARs can go anywhere. Just curious as to if I’m missing something critical to properly center lining a gun.

Here’s a 17lb .300 Norma magnum on my collar bone. Zero issues and no bruising or soreness. I could shoot this rifle all day like this.

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[DJL2]

I‘m giving it a go, started this past weekend. After sending about 15 rounds of 7mm RM (and assorted .30-06), I was definitely out of the fun zone. That 7mm RM is about the only thing I have bullets for (I’ll run out of powder first, I bet) though, so I’ll need to figure it out. Some of it is stock design, I think. My .30-06 didn’t seem so bad, but I think the stock is more conducive - last range outing hand me running 208 ELD-M with as much H4831sc as I could fit in the case and full power loads of SF behind 195 TMK. The .30-06 goes about 9.5 lbs all in and the 7mm RM is about 8.5.

I‘m down to about 300 rounds of factory 6.5 CM or so...starting to become obvious why guys keep a stock of components on hand...

 

[Lowlight]

Since this fits to a video I just posted in the Online training and a Supporter Account will give you access, I will post this for you all all

 

[Eric32]

Is the sound working for anyone without a supporter account?

never mind it works on a desktop not my android

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here’s another angle with different frame rate.

I didn’t have a proper rear bag, just a fortune cookie. With proper rear bag, I’d expect a bit better recoil management.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Since this fits to a video I just posted in the Online training and a Supporter Account will give you access, I will post this for you all all

Thank you for the outstanding video and explanation. The concept finally got through my thick skull after seeing/listening/reading about it 3 or 4 different ways. I've not had many resources to shoot centerfire recently, but this makes sense in recoil control, spotting your own shots, avoiding rolling over the rifle, etc.

My observation from rimfire shooting is related to eliminating what I call the "trigger press jiggle" when dryfiring (with snap caps of course). On properly set up rifles that shoot well on high magnification, I did not observe dry fire jiggles. Poorly set up rifles and when I shouldered the stock on the traditional shoulder pocket vs collar bone contact had a higher propensity for the jiggle after the trigger break.

Reading the articles about the firing hand and support hand and now seeing the video about the stock contact points perfectly captures my experience... I just wish I was smart enough to follow what was out there sooner and in a more systematic fashion.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with the community.
Happy shooting

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Since this fits to a video I just posted in the Online training and a Supporter Account will give you access, I will post this for you all all

Could you just be a little nicer? You're so mean.








Great video. Helped immensely. Thanks.

 

[DJL2]

I feel like some of this would be easier to grasp if I could actually do the setup as described. I suppose I need to up my stock/chassis game a bit.

I just took a bunch of photos with my T3x, M70 and SOTIC...my head tilts between 5 and 15 degrees depending on rifle and position (standing, kneeling, prone, prone w/bipod). Oddly, my ”straightness” or squareness behind the rifle didn’t seem to have any effect at all.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I feel like some of this would be easier to grasp if I could actually do the setup as described. I suppose I need to up my stock/chassis game a bit.

I just took a bunch of photos with my T3x, M70 and SOTIC...my head tilts between 5 and 15 degrees depending on rifle and position (standing, kneeling, prone, prone w/bipod). Oddly, my ”straightness” or squareness behind the rifle didn’t seem to have any effect at all.

Rings are probably too low. Here’s a couple pics. I run 1.42” ARC rings. Very little roll or titled head.

 

[Gil P.]

Rings are probably too low. Here’s a couple pics. I run 1.42” ARC rings. Very little roll or titled head.

Would lowering his cheek piece have the same effect?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Would lowering his cheek piece have the same effect?

Technically yes. But that’s working in reverse.

Set the rifle up to you, and not you to the rifle. Set rifle up without rings or optic. Then get the size rings that fit the closest to your setup. Then do small tweaks with the cheek.

 

[Gil P.]

Do you think a chin weld is more useful than a firm cheek weld for competitive shooting?

One vs the other really changes your neck angle regardless of ring height, right?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Do you think a chin weld is more useful than a firm cheek weld for competitive shooting?

One vs the other really changes your neck angle regardless of ring height, right?

Generally speaking, chin welds are good for instances when you won’t be on the rifle for extended periods of time. Since your neck muscles are being used.

For extended times on the rifle a cheek weld allows you to rest the weight of your head on the cheek.

Jaw weld imparts less shooter into the rifle but will fatigue in extended times.

Cheek weld will impart downward weight on the butt, but will support weight and relax muscles.

 

[Gil P.]

Do you think a heavy cheek weld will push the reticle up and left after firing the rifle for a right handed shooter? Or would that be an issue with position and NPA?

I'm having trouble with this and I plan on trying to use a jaw weld vs a cheek weld to see if I'm able to stay on target through recoil better.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Any pressure can push the rifle away from said pressure. Shooter has to be aware of this. Regardless position.

 

[DJL2]

Rings are probably too low. Here’s a couple pics. I run 1.42” ARC rings. Very little roll or titled head.

Don’t have the experience, perspective to know. This is apples and oranges because only one is off a bipod. Ironically, that’s rifle/position with the most roll over...or maybe I just suck at photo-ing myself on the floor of my house at night. Jaw/chin weld only for the other two...but sketchy at that.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Don’t have the experience, perspective to know. This is apples and oranges because only one is off a bipod. Ironically, that’s rifle/position with the most roll over...or maybe I just suck at photo-ing myself on the floor of my house at night. Jaw/chin weld only for the other two...but sketchy at that.

You’re not close to being square behind the rifle with the bipod.

Being kicked off to the side is only acceptable when sling shooting and such. With a bipod, you will want to get completely square behind rifle.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The red line shows the angle you are at currently.

The green shows where you should be. Use your elbows to help reference. We need to fix that before scope location. As always, professional instruction is the easiest way to work on this.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, another reason it’s more rolled over is you’re up higher on your elbows in the other pics.

Raise your bipod for prone. The “get as low as possible” is outdated. Being low like that has you basically laying on top of your rifle and you have to roll your head.

Raise the bipod and get square behind the rifle. Your head position will instantly improve.

 

[eastexsteve]

Raise your bipod for prone. The “get as low as possible” is outdated. Being low like that has you basically laying on top of your rifle and you have to roll your head.

Raise the bipod and get square behind the rifle. Your head position will instantly improve.

THIS ^^^^^!! I learned this the hard way, and it took a few years. I'm kinda big through the top torso and shoulders, and I kept trying to learn prone position from guys who weren't like me. For me, the gun was just too close to the ground. Though, I shoot over a pack most of the time when shooting prone, I finally learned to raise the front of the gun, and use a rear bag big enough to get the gun higher into my shoulder and more comfortable for me. It was like night and day.

 

[DJL2]

@Dthomas3523 - appreciate the insight. I'll have to see if I can get a course on my schedule somewhere. In the meantime...well, I suppose I can keeping refining old school without creating bad modern habits...maybe. Now, to go up my bipod game...