We are including positional stages in our precision .22 matches. It’s really a natural fit for this type of match imo.
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Rimfire Positional Shooting Thread V1.0
- Thread starter rick137
- Start date
In response to a post by 308pirate, a proposal. Informal competition for positional shooters.
Suggestions for a few rules and regs. Final rules and regs by consensus. 50 yd. Any 22LR rifle, single shot, bolt, semi-auto. Any ammo. Any sight. Any sling. Either one, some or all of standing, kneeling, sitting, prone positions. Absolutely no other support than the ground and a sling which you can or cannot use at your discretion. The ground must be used. Proper tagboard targets, the type to be decided by consensus. Scores on the honor system. Post targets or not as you wish. 10 shots per target.
Bragging rights for best target, worst target, best average for all targets, whatever someone considers worthy.
Once agreed we positional shooters can start shooting. Will join you in the Spring.
Rick
Suggestions for a few rules and regs. Final rules and regs by consensus. 50 yd. Any 22LR rifle, single shot, bolt, semi-auto. Any ammo. Any sight. Any sling. Either one, some or all of standing, kneeling, sitting, prone positions. Absolutely no other support than the ground and a sling which you can or cannot use at your discretion. The ground must be used. Proper tagboard targets, the type to be decided by consensus. Scores on the honor system. Post targets or not as you wish. 10 shots per target.
Bragging rights for best target, worst target, best average for all targets, whatever someone considers worthy.
Once agreed we positional shooters can start shooting. Will join you in the Spring.
Rick
There are already plenty of standard match formats and rules to choose from. We're not going to Rube Goldberg the shit out of this.
The CMP's Rimfire Sporter match format is the most popular positional rimfire match in the country. Its rule set is specifically designed to accommodate commonly owned rimfire rifles and exclude specialized match equipment and rifles that few have. Its targets are available either to purchase or download (on this thread) and so targets don't need to be invented.
The only thing left to decide is whether to shoot the entire match or certain stages of it.
The CMP's Rimfire Sporter match format is the most popular positional rimfire match in the country. Its rule set is specifically designed to accommodate commonly owned rimfire rifles and exclude specialized match equipment and rifles that few have. Its targets are available either to purchase or download (on this thread) and so targets don't need to be invented.
The only thing left to decide is whether to shoot the entire match or certain stages of it.
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Few people who are not used to 3p would find even a half course match enjoyable. If this is the positional postal match type wanted- I would suggest 20 shots prone, 10 standing and 10 kneeling, standard NRA rules, Block time 1 hr. If you want to make it more humbling the metric target. There is a reason smallbore is a shooting sport that is all but dead.
If a PRS/Nrl22 type postal match is desired, I would suggest some inexpensive 1/2/3/4" steel circles equal value on impacts, 10 shot strings @ 50yds in 120 seconds each string. 1 string offhand, 1 string kneeling sling supported, 1 string step ladder barricade, and 1 string prone sling supported. Target size to match stability of target. 1 bag smaller than a volleyball allowed on barricade and as a kneeling roll.
Nrl 22 style would be more logistically difficult but probably more repeat customers.
If a PRS/Nrl22 type postal match is desired, I would suggest some inexpensive 1/2/3/4" steel circles equal value on impacts, 10 shot strings @ 50yds in 120 seconds each string. 1 string offhand, 1 string kneeling sling supported, 1 string step ladder barricade, and 1 string prone sling supported. Target size to match stability of target. 1 bag smaller than a volleyball allowed on barricade and as a kneeling roll.
Nrl 22 style would be more logistically difficult but probably more repeat customers.
Concur. I recommend the CMP rimfire target as it's a little more appropriate to the types of rifles most of us own. Prone can be split into two targets of ten shots each.
For those unfamiliar with position rules:
- Prone: any style you like so long as the rifle is supported ONLY by your arms and nothing else. No part of the rifle may touch the ground. The arms can be aided by a loop or hasty sling, shooters choice.
- Kneeling: Any kneeling position you like so long as rifle support is provided by the arms only. ONLY the non firing arm can make contact with any other body parts. A loop or hasty sling may be used to aid the arms in supporting the rifle. No part of the body above the waist may be in contact with the ground at all. NO BAGS/PILLOWS/PACKS/PROPS/SOLID OBJECTS etc can be used to fill body gaps or provide support in any way shape or form
- Standing: Any standing position you like so long as rifle support is provided by the arms only. NO sling or any kind may be used to aid the arms in supporting the rifle. The only part of the body that may be in contact with the ground or any other object are the feet. NO BAGS/PILLOWS/PACKS/etc can be used to fill body gaps or provide support in any way shape or form
Here. Not in Europe (especially the Germanic countries)
Whose rules are these? They area little different than what I am used to for Olympic prone or 3P. Just curious...
@308pirate
The blonde haired / blue eyed cousins across the pond play several games that are cool but not popular here. If you want to play the 300M 3-p game you better like traveling, same with Running Target and I dont think I even know of anyone shooting CISM in the CONUS.
@jbell- I believe 308 pirate is condensing the CMP's rules for rimfire sporter for those unfamiliar with traditional 3p matches...
The blonde haired / blue eyed cousins across the pond play several games that are cool but not popular here. If you want to play the 300M 3-p game you better like traveling, same with Running Target and I dont think I even know of anyone shooting CISM in the CONUS.
@jbell- I believe 308 pirate is condensing the CMP's rules for rimfire sporter for those unfamiliar with traditional 3p matches...
It's kind of a condensed version of the cans and cannots with some leeway on the basic positions so that people can follow the spirit of the rules even if their position is a little unconventional.
But as I'm sure you know, the orthodox positions are such for very good, time tested reasons. Deviate much from them at your peril.
I would love to try running target the way it's done in Europe for hunting practice. The German chick looks like she's killed her share of pigs on the run.
Damn, I also now want one of those Merkel RX Helix rifles.......holy shit that is sweet. Eurooptic, TAKE MY MONEY!
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Start up one.
Super simple, they use the same monthly COF across the country and the props are mostly from Home Depot.
Target package from Jake V I think is a couple hundred and all you need is a 100 yard range
The target package is reasonable for what you get. I bought a set to practice with and hold invitation only matches at the range at my house. Subsequently a local club hosted a match last month. Cheap targets, simple props / stages , kid and new shooter friendly....
There’s an PRS-style rimfire match being held in my area (SW Ontario) in March. The last time something like this was done was 6 years ago & only a handful of shooters showed up. I’m both curious & excited to see how many show up this time. The sport has gained a lot of momentum, so hopefully there’s enough to make this a regular event.
I made a mistake when I started this thread by not calling it informal positional shooting. The concept was non-supported shooting with exception of a sling. And with the thought that friendly but serious competition is not only fun but brings out your best.
Upon reflection I realized that the conditions I stated yesterday are too restrictive. Really any small caliber rimfire ammunition and any distance. The idea is to decide the game you want to play, distance, target, caliber. If you want competition hopefully someone else will play your game. Any game you want as long as only ground and a sling. Or you can play someone else game. Or compete against yourself. If you want NRA, or CMP or PRS or NRL22 or North Slovakian Gun Club rules please start a new thread and label it accordingly. I presume the 6 x 5 thread has a reasonable set of rules for sniper style shooting at least if you use the ground.
One of the many great aspects of positional shooting is that an excellent positional shooter with inferior equipment will outshoot a poor positional shooter with the best equipment every time.
My game will be 50 yd and 100 yd, 22LR, NRA 50 yd and 100 yd smallbore rifle targets, 10 shots per target, running ten target average. Eventually 200 yd, target undecided at present. If you do not want to play that game, fine but please shut-up and go away. Start your own thread.
Rick
Upon reflection I realized that the conditions I stated yesterday are too restrictive. Really any small caliber rimfire ammunition and any distance. The idea is to decide the game you want to play, distance, target, caliber. If you want competition hopefully someone else will play your game. Any game you want as long as only ground and a sling. Or you can play someone else game. Or compete against yourself. If you want NRA, or CMP or PRS or NRL22 or North Slovakian Gun Club rules please start a new thread and label it accordingly. I presume the 6 x 5 thread has a reasonable set of rules for sniper style shooting at least if you use the ground.
One of the many great aspects of positional shooting is that an excellent positional shooter with inferior equipment will outshoot a poor positional shooter with the best equipment every time.
My game will be 50 yd and 100 yd, 22LR, NRA 50 yd and 100 yd smallbore rifle targets, 10 shots per target, running ten target average. Eventually 200 yd, target undecided at present. If you do not want to play that game, fine but please shut-up and go away. Start your own thread.
Rick
Having conducted Running Boar shoots on the original range in NZ, I advise the following: if you want to run those shoots at any rate above a snail’s pace, you really need two layouts, parallel to each other, with a decent berm in between to avoid a long walk from one to the other. This is because, even with a double station firing point you do not save much time because targets still have to be scored (and patched) and only one shooter can fire at a time.
You also need to locate a decent electric motor rewinding shop because there are special requirements for two speed, reversible electric motors. No use going to your local sparky supply shop. You can use a petrol engine with multiple pulleys but small motors generally work best when they get a good run at least once a week so electric motors are generally more reliable for this purpose.
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OK back to positional shooting. Very nice, clear, sunny, warm (low 40s) December day today.
After some plinking I threw out some SR-3s (NRA highpower 300 yard target) reduced to 50 yards. These targets are used for the 300 yard prone rapid fire stages of NRA highpower and CMP service rifle matches.
I ran five and five slung up prone from left to right with a reload. Didn't time it but based on having shot this stage hundreds of times in practice and matches I'm positive I ran it in less than the regulation 70 seconds.
Oh yea the rifle
After some plinking I threw out some SR-3s (NRA highpower 300 yard target) reduced to 50 yards. These targets are used for the 300 yard prone rapid fire stages of NRA highpower and CMP service rifle matches.
I ran five and five slung up prone from left to right with a reload. Didn't time it but based on having shot this stage hundreds of times in practice and matches I'm positive I ran it in less than the regulation 70 seconds.
Oh yea the rifle
Today I went to sight in a SIG Romeo5 micro reflex sight that I got on an end of year clearance sale for a song.
I really like this micro, with its super clear glass (less tint than my old school Aimpoints), 2 MOA dot, and compact footprint. I wouldn't put it on a serious rifle, but for plinking and hunting it is pretty nice. The only annoyance I have noticed so far are some stray reflections of the emitter when the sun is behind me. But for $120, I'll over look that.
I found a legit Aimpoint micro base for the 11 mm dovetail on Amazon for $58 and on the rifle it went like a charm
Once we got the 25 yard bench work out of the way, it's time for some positional shooting........so I dragged an Appleseed 25 meter target out and went to work
The ten shots standing went really well, using a hasty sling. Cleaned it.
Next was sitting rapid fire. Two targets, five rounds each with a mag change in 55 seconds, starting from the standing position. Obviously didn't get my natural point of aim right.......but dropping only 4 points is not too bad. To confirm, I shot another rapid fire sting of five on the sighter square (1" x 1") on the upper right and nailed it.
Prone rapid is where the wheels fell off. This is shot from standing to prone, 65 seconds. The real applseed splits ten rounds between three targets. I only have five round magazines so I split it 5 and 5 between two. Anyway, position fell apart because both strings were way low on the left and center targets. I noticed it was getting cloudier and that my sling felt a little loose so I tightened it a little more and dropped the dot's brightness one click and shot 5 and 5 again on the left and center. This time the groups were much tighter (tighter sling) and closer to where they should be (smaller dot). Just to confirm I shot five more rapids on the right target and five more on the sighter square. Much better.
With the position and sight settings figured out, it was time to place 20 shots on the simulated 400 yd targets at the bottom. Much more like what I know I can do.
By then sunset was close and the rain clouds were darkening so I stapled a CMP rimfire sporter target and took the stand to the 50 yard line to check zero. Turns out I was low on the first five shots (adjusted elevation up 2 MOA), and needed to turn down the dot's intensity one more time to account for the fading light. Put 20 more rounds into it and pretty much pounded the shit out of the 10 ring. ETA: this was also shot prone with only a sling for support.
I really like this micro, with its super clear glass (less tint than my old school Aimpoints), 2 MOA dot, and compact footprint. I wouldn't put it on a serious rifle, but for plinking and hunting it is pretty nice. The only annoyance I have noticed so far are some stray reflections of the emitter when the sun is behind me. But for $120, I'll over look that.
I found a legit Aimpoint micro base for the 11 mm dovetail on Amazon for $58 and on the rifle it went like a charm
Once we got the 25 yard bench work out of the way, it's time for some positional shooting........so I dragged an Appleseed 25 meter target out and went to work
The ten shots standing went really well, using a hasty sling. Cleaned it.
Next was sitting rapid fire. Two targets, five rounds each with a mag change in 55 seconds, starting from the standing position. Obviously didn't get my natural point of aim right.......but dropping only 4 points is not too bad. To confirm, I shot another rapid fire sting of five on the sighter square (1" x 1") on the upper right and nailed it.
Prone rapid is where the wheels fell off. This is shot from standing to prone, 65 seconds. The real applseed splits ten rounds between three targets. I only have five round magazines so I split it 5 and 5 between two. Anyway, position fell apart because both strings were way low on the left and center targets. I noticed it was getting cloudier and that my sling felt a little loose so I tightened it a little more and dropped the dot's brightness one click and shot 5 and 5 again on the left and center. This time the groups were much tighter (tighter sling) and closer to where they should be (smaller dot). Just to confirm I shot five more rapids on the right target and five more on the sighter square. Much better.
With the position and sight settings figured out, it was time to place 20 shots on the simulated 400 yd targets at the bottom. Much more like what I know I can do.
By then sunset was close and the rain clouds were darkening so I stapled a CMP rimfire sporter target and took the stand to the 50 yard line to check zero. Turns out I was low on the first five shots (adjusted elevation up 2 MOA), and needed to turn down the dot's intensity one more time to account for the fading light. Put 20 more rounds into it and pretty much pounded the shit out of the 10 ring. ETA: this was also shot prone with only a sling for support.
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Why would you not put it on anything serious? What does your Aimpoint do that this can’t? Yes, I’m being serious. Plenty of videos out there putting this optic through absolute hell that 99% of the people out there would never do and it’s passed just fine. Hell one vid even shot it from 5 yards away with a shotgun and it was still going strong. I understand Aimpoint is tried and true but so far I haven’t seen anything that this optic hasn’t been able to take. Anyways just curious to your thoughts here.
I guess the words "Made in China" don't inspire the same confidence that over 30 years of Aimpoint's military service in Sweden, USA, and many other countries does.
Just like there are people who could save a quite a lot of money by buying something from Primary Arms or Athlon but spring for Khales, Swarovski, Steiner, Leica, etc.......
Just like there are people who could save a quite a lot of money by buying something from Primary Arms or Athlon but spring for Khales, Swarovski, Steiner, Leica, etc.......
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Hey Kane,
Myself and a couple of buddies are going to try and make it Aylmer . It will be our first matches as well. They look fun and can only help with our shooting.
Our experience is varied, I’ve been hunting for 33 years, one buddy for 15 and the other is new. We were out shooting an 8x8 plate at 200 yards last week and it was a blast. Also had a 1/2” bolt welded up on a swinger and shooting it at 75 yards.
It will be fun!
It seems very strange that the more I use them the more I prefer reflex sights (aka red dots) to magnifying scopes for non-precision use.
I've had more than one scope on that CZ over the years and it's never been as easy for me to shoot it accurately inside it's max point blank range with them than it has been with red dots. I started with an old Aimpoint CompC that I had lying around (and its LED diode is finally starting to dim) and now this new, 2 MOA SIG is even easier to use on small targets out to 100 yards. Later today I'll post up a pic of a target I shot at 100 yards using nothing but Kentucky windage and a rough holdover using the Romeo5. I was amazed to say the least.
Same thing goes with my AR carbine. I have a really nice Steiner P4Xi 1-4X on an ADM QD mount and after playing with it I got as fast as I am with an Aimpoint PRO, but it takes a little more effort to get that speed. It now sits in its box, mounted, zeroed, and ready for use; but what rides on my carbine is still an Aimpoint PRO. Sure, an LPVO extends the effective range of the rifle from 300 to 500 yards. But outside of range fun a reflex sight makes a lot more sense to me when I consider how I would use a carbine defensively, even outside the home. Hint: I'm not pointing a loaded rifle (an overtly hostile act) at someone unknown 200 - 300 yards away to determine if they are a threat or not. That's what other compact observation devices are for.
I've had more than one scope on that CZ over the years and it's never been as easy for me to shoot it accurately inside it's max point blank range with them than it has been with red dots. I started with an old Aimpoint CompC that I had lying around (and its LED diode is finally starting to dim) and now this new, 2 MOA SIG is even easier to use on small targets out to 100 yards. Later today I'll post up a pic of a target I shot at 100 yards using nothing but Kentucky windage and a rough holdover using the Romeo5. I was amazed to say the least.
Same thing goes with my AR carbine. I have a really nice Steiner P4Xi 1-4X on an ADM QD mount and after playing with it I got as fast as I am with an Aimpoint PRO, but it takes a little more effort to get that speed. It now sits in its box, mounted, zeroed, and ready for use; but what rides on my carbine is still an Aimpoint PRO. Sure, an LPVO extends the effective range of the rifle from 300 to 500 yards. But outside of range fun a reflex sight makes a lot more sense to me when I consider how I would use a carbine defensively, even outside the home. Hint: I'm not pointing a loaded rifle (an overtly hostile act) at someone unknown 200 - 300 yards away to determine if they are a threat or not. That's what other compact observation devices are for.
So here's the Appleseed 100 yd target reduced to 25 yards, but shot from 100 yards away. It effectively looks to the eye as the real target looks at 400 yards.
The day I shot it, there was a nice 8 - 12 mph right to left breeze, which is why you see so much horizontal spread.
The first shot was made holding just on top of the head and over the right shoulder. Low in the 3 ring and close to center side to side. From then on I held about another dot's worth higher and played with the wind hold depending on how it felt and how the mirage looked in my spotter.
While this target won't win any precision contests, you have to consider the type of rifle, sight, and distance used to make those 30 shots.
The day I shot it, there was a nice 8 - 12 mph right to left breeze, which is why you see so much horizontal spread.
The first shot was made holding just on top of the head and over the right shoulder. Low in the 3 ring and close to center side to side. From then on I held about another dot's worth higher and played with the wind hold depending on how it felt and how the mirage looked in my spotter.
While this target won't win any precision contests, you have to consider the type of rifle, sight, and distance used to make those 30 shots.
