Safety Warning for Berger 77 grain OTM: Pressure Testing Update

[BuildingConceptsllc]

2985 FPS from an 18" barrel is 137 FPS faster than Black Hills 5.56mm MK262 Mod 1 when fired from a 20" Colt barrel with a 5.56mm chamber. Berger clearly labeled this ammunition as "223 Remington" "Match Grade Ammunition"

The Berger box lists this ammunition as having having a muzzle velocity of 2750 FPS fired from a 20" barrel. So that 2985 FPS is 235 FPS FASTER THAN BERGER'S OWN STATED VELOCITY.

...

Yeah, that's ridiculous. I thought they had said "we will replace any of this if anyone wants to" but I went back ITT and read their recall notice and they did say not to use it in AR's so I shouldn't have done it and that's on me. I kept it after molons experience because it shot so well in my bolt gun but I'm going to just get it all replaced if they will do that, even the other lot number I have that's about the same age.

 

[Near miss]

Man I am getting jealous, I need to top up my go-to max load, another 100fps?

This certainly speaks volumes about how Lapua brass holds up. Can not believe it did not let go.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Man I am getting jealous, I need to top up my go-to max load, another 100fps?

This certainly speaks volumes about how Lapua brass holds up. Can not believe it did not let go.

If it wasn't lapua it probably would have. That was the first time I've ever had anything like that happen and I very much expect it to be my last. It's interesting that my case looks nearly identical to molons in how it deformed. I don't remember what rifle he was shooting but that pretty well confirms everything molon said from the get go, not that he needed it confirmed

 

[Frank Green]

I didn’t read the whole thread but as a suggestion….

Krieger makes a lot of there AR barrels or use to make them all with a .218” bore size. That’s tight. .219” is standard. This will drive up pressure. Call them and give them the s/n and ask them to look it up or send it back and have them verify the bore and groove size. This could easily be your problem.

When we make AR barrels I refuse to make tight bore barrels anymore unless there is a specific request and reasoning for it.

I’ve seen actual pressure data thru a test barrel where the bore and groove where only .0005” undersize and that drove up pressure 10k psi.

Case head etching in the bolt face is around 80k psi.

Also if the chamber reamer cut a little undersize even to at size that can effect pressure as well. I’ve seen 300AAC chambers that cut .0001” to .0002” under the min throat spec and bullets where fat on diameter and that drove up pressure 6k minimum.

Call Berger and ask them to check your ammo in a pressure test barrel. Send it back to them or at least call and talk to them. What spec test barrel and chamber it was shot in could be a variable also.

Don't shoot it anymore till you have it checked out!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Molon]

This could easily be your problem.

No, it isn’t “my problem”. Are you also going to tell buildingconceptsllc that it’s “his problem” since he had the exact same type of blow-out from this ammunition in his barrel? When fired from his 18” barrel, this ammunition had a muzzle velocity that was 235 FPS faster than the manufacturer’s stated velocity when fired from a 20” barrel. If all this was “my problem” why did Berger end-up issuing a recall for this ammunition after I told them that I was not going to be returning this ammunition to them and that I was considering having this ammunition pressure tested by an independent lab?

I’ve been shooting match-grade AR-15 barrels from Krieger for decades, because they have been the premier manufacturer of match-grade barrels for the AR-15 for decades. Berger clearly labeled this ammunition as “match grade ammunition”. Had Berger done their due-diligence before releasing this ammunition to the public they would have tested this ammunition in match-grade barrels for the AR-15.

In the decades that I’ve been using match-grade Krieger barrels for my AR-15s I’ve never had so-much as a popped primer. In the hundreds of factory loads that I’ve chronographed from my match-grade Krieger barrels there has never been a load that was 235 FPS faster than the manufacturers stated velocity.

Call Berger and ask them to check your ammo in a pressure test barrel. Send it back to them or at least call and talk to them.

Try actually reading the thread. I posted some of communications that I had with Berger and I clearly stated that I asked Berger to do some pressure testing with the components and powder used in this load and they refused.

...

 

[lash]

No, it isn’t “my problem”. Are you also going to tell buildingconceptsllc that it’s “his problem” since he had the exact same type of blow-out from this ammunition in his barrel? When fired from his 18” barrel, this ammunition had a muzzle velocity that was 235 FPS faster than the manufacturer’s stated velocity when fired from a 20” barrel. If all this was “my problem” why did Berger end-up issuing a recall for this ammunition after I told them that I was not going to be returning this ammunition to them and that I was considering having this ammunition pressure tested by an independent lab?

I’ve been shooting match-grade AR-15 barrels from Krieger for decades, because they have been the premier manufacturer of match-grade barrels for the AR-15 for decades. Berger clearly labeled this ammunition as “match grade ammunition”. Had Berger done their due-diligence before releasing this ammunition to the public they would have tested this ammunition in match-grade barrels for the AR-15.

In the decades that I’ve been using match-grade Krieger barrels for my AR-15s I’ve never had so-much as a popped primer. In the hundreds of factory loads that I’ve chronographed from my match-grade Krieger barrels there has never been a load that was 235 FPS faster than the manufacturers stated velocity.




Try actually reading the thread. I posted some of communications that I had with Berger and I clearly stated that I asked Berger to do some pressure testing with the components and powder used in this load and they refused.

...

Cool your jets a bit there, hotshot. You are overreacting. Frank doesn’t spend his days on here all day like some people do.

He was offering some suggestions based upon observations he’s made from many years of producing barrels and testing them.

No need to go full tilt at him for that.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Thanks for the info frank, your input is always appreciated and you've helped me with other stuff too and I really do appreciate that.

I know you are just giving some info and insight and I am happy to have it too. I think if you do get the time to read this lengthy thread, you will see that there is just an issue with bergers process or something with this ammo. Hopefully they have corrected it and put in place procedures so that it won't happen again, and I expect that they have.

I will definitely call them and talk to them again. The last time I spoke with them was Before they put out the recall statement. At that time they did kind of write off @Molon 's info and experience with this ammo, at least that was the impression I got.

Clearly, the exact same result in 2 different AR's and I assume 2 different manufacturers suggest that their ammo is an issue. I feel sure that my CLE chamber is tighter than the typical AR and Molons guns chamber probably is too though I really don't know. Be that as it may, when they labeled the ammo ".223 match" I would think it would be made such that its safe in any chamber within SAAMI spec right?

Anywho, I can assure you that I won't be shooting any more of it and I will be happy to send whatever to Berger if they are interested.

 

[Frank Green]

Like I said it can be a combination of things.

You can have a tight bore barrel and not have a issue per say but that doesn’t mean that the pressure isn’t up and you not see it. No flat primers or ejector swipes etc….

Than you come across this or that ammo and you have issues.

It would be interesting to know what spec the test barrel(s) the ammo was tested in when it was produced. Only Berger knows that.

If the ammo was loaded and tested in a 5.56mm NATO spec barrel it shouldn’t be labeled 223 Remington then. Ammo loaded in a 5.56 nato barrel and loaded to 5.56 pressure specs and then take that ammo and shoot it in a 223 spec barrel and chamber that will also drive up pressures even more.

I had Krieger AR barrels both before I worked there and during but all my shooting was done with hand loads only and no box ammo.

Ask Frank White down at CLE or his kid as Frank is kind of retired. He will tell you if box ammo in a Krieger your more likely to have a issue. Not all the time but good possibility.

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

If Berger said there is a issue with the ammo….then…..things are more complicated.

 

[Molon]

He will tell you if box ammo in a Krieger your more likely to have a issue. Not all the time but good possibility.

So shooting factory loaded ammunition in a Krieger barrel is going to have a "good possibility" of having an issue. Even on Arfcom, one manufacturer isn't allowed to slander another manufacturer in a tech forum.

...

 

[Baron23]

No, it isn’t “my problem”. Are you also going to tell buildingconceptsllc that it’s “his problem” since he had the exact same type of blow-out from this ammunition in his barrel? When fired from his 18” barrel, this ammunition had a muzzle velocity that was 235 FPS faster than the manufacturer’s stated velocity when fired from a 20” barrel. If all this was “my problem” why did Berger end-up issuing a recall for this ammunition after I told them that I was not going to be returning this ammunition to them and that I was considering having this ammunition pressure tested by an independent lab?

I’ve been shooting match-grade AR-15 barrels from Krieger for decades, because they have been the premier manufacturer of match-grade barrels for the AR-15 for decades. Berger clearly labeled this ammunition as “match grade ammunition”. Had Berger done their due-diligence before releasing this ammunition to the public they would have tested this ammunition in match-grade barrels for the AR-15.

In the decades that I’ve been using match-grade Krieger barrels for my AR-15s I’ve never had so-much as a popped primer. In the hundreds of factory loads that I’ve chronographed from my match-grade Krieger barrels there has never been a load that was 235 FPS faster than the manufacturers stated velocity.




Try actually reading the thread. I posted some of communications that I had with Berger and I clearly stated that I asked Berger to do some pressure testing with the components and powder used in this load and they refused.

...

You work in concrete and bench press blah blah??….you are reading far too much into Frank’s attempt to share some information. I’m sure he won’t want to do so again. Sheesh

 

[Frank Green]

So shooting factory loaded ammunition in a Krieger barrel is going to have a "good possibility" of having an issue. Even on Arfcom, one manufacturer isn't allowed to slander another manufacturer in a tech forum.

...

I'm not slamming Krieger.

All of my Krieger AR barrels back in the day where .218" bore but I didn't run any box ammo. All handloads for my match guns. Shot awesome!

It's just a known fact that you right a tight bore barrel it will drive up pressures and depending on the ammo....you might see issues or your problems get amplified and it's worse with a gas gun vs a bolt gun. I suggested calling Frank down at CLE and talk to him about it if you don't want to take my word for it. Frank will tell you on our barrels and Kriegers for consistency they out shot anything he else for the most part. He will tell you the same thing I'm telling you about pressure issues with ammo etc...

Like I said I use to work there (Krieger). That's why I suggested you call them and give them the s/n of your barrel and ask to confirm the bore size of the barrel. Maybe they no longer make a tight bore AR barrel? It's been a long time now since I worked there. If you call and ask and they lets say confirm it's a .219" bore....then you can rule out the tight bore causing or amplifying the issues. Or ask them if you send it in can they remeasure/double check the bore to confirm the actual bore and groove size.

When we started Bartlein we did tool up for .218" (tight bore 224cal barrels) as we we're use to making them that way as well as we tooled up for .219" because that is Saami standard but as I've learned over time from actual test data on pressure test barrels this can work against you if you run a tight bore/tight groove barrel.

So like I said....as I learned more and more about pressures etc...if a customer calls and spec's out a tight bore barrel. I will ask what the application is for. I don't want a phone call back and the customer is having issues if we could avoid it all together/help the customer out up front.

I do get calls from ammo/bullet makers at time and I will get a generic request for a 224cal barrel. Where they don't want Saami spec or it's not needed but I will ask...what bore size do you want, what twist, what style of rifling etc...at times they will say you pick out the best. So I will give them my recommendation and why and then they make the final call on the specs.

My AR's that I build now...I'm running more of a mix of box ammo as well as handloads. I'm running all .219" bores.

For the last few years now all the barrels we've made for our military and it doesn't matter if it's for a special forces unit using the guns overseas (yes the guns see combat) or for a military match rifle team on AR platforms I've only been doing them as standard .219" bores. No complaints on accuracy or pressure. The guns need to work for them.

Later, Frank

 

[lennyo3034]

What application would a tight bore barrel be appropriate for? Specifically .218?

Would it be possible for the bore to be .219” at the chamber and .218” at the muzzle?

 

[Frank Green]

What application would a tight bore barrel be appropriate for? Specifically .218?

Would it be possible for the bore to be .219” at the chamber and .218” at the muzzle?

To your first question I say this....if your shooting good quality bullets especially match type bullets...I see no need or a specific application for a tight bore/tight groove barrel.

The tight bore barrel thing started back in the early to mid 70's. Creighton Audette I believe it was asked Obermeyer for a tight bore / tight groove 30cal palma barrels because in Palma shooting especially if you went to a host country (host country supplies the ammo) in some cases where issuing ball ammo. The ball ammo the bullets where running as small as .3065" in diameter. That's where it all started as I know it.

If the bullets are truly undersize then I see a need / use for a tight bore barrel. The bullets get too loose in the rifling of the barrel and your accuracy suffers.


To your 2nd question....is it possible that it's bigger at the breech end and tighter at the muzzle? Anything is possible but I'll say odds are against it.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

So just to update things. I talked to Berger (I think it was the same guy I talked to last time, I guess that was a year ago or so). They are sending me a package to send back the ammo that I have and replace all of it.

I inquired a little about what they did if anything to change the ammo and make it safe to shoot in an AR. This is not a direct quote, just paraphrasing....

He said they changed the powder in an effort to change ghe pressure curve, as that was determined to be the issue that caused over pressure in AR's. He said the velocity should be the same, but have a different pressure curve and be safe in ar's now. I didn't even ask about the differences in powder charge that seem to almost certainly be the case in those lots at minimum. Obviously the ones Molon took apart showed that and the different speeds I got indicate that too, so hopefully they addressed that as well.

I will chrono the new stuff too because I am hoping to use it to shoot in all of my ar's and then sort of copy it, to load a round that will shoot well in all of my ar's, including my CLE precision AR, so that I can load up one recipe and then make a few thousand of them to have to shoot in any of my AR's as I need to, vs having a different round for each gun. If I am lucky it will be one that I can shoot very well in my bolt gun too but that's not a requirement.


Anywho, just wanted to update this with what they said.

 

[Near miss]

Interesting. You'd suppose they would have at least mentioned fixing the charge.

And in practice, how is it possible for powder to be dangerous? After all, you can use pistol powder safely. It is all about the charge.

 

[Molon]

I will chrono the new stuff too

It will be interesting to see what the velocity of the new lot of ammunition they send you has from the same barrel that you had the blow-out with, along with a comparison of powder charges to the original defective lot.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

It will be interesting to see what the velocity of the new lot of ammunition they send you has from the same barrel that you had the blow-out with, along with a comparison of powder charges to the original defective lot.

Oh I will definitely chrono the new stuff when I get it. I sent their ammo back to them on the 21st of October but I don't think it got there until around the 27th or 28th. I would think the replacement ammo would be coming soon.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

It will be interesting to see what the velocity of the new lot of ammunition they send you has from the same barrel that you had the blow-out with, along with a comparison of powder charges to the original defective lot.

Update: I haven't gotten anything back from Berger yet. They told me it would be a bit since they didn't have the ammo to send me, of course they only told me that AFTER I sent them 17 boxes of ammo. They said they would let me trade for 6cm ammo though, which with the brass situation there I took them up on, but it's been about 4 ish months now since I sent it in and I haven't gotten anything so, started to get aggravated about it. I just emailed Mr. Bob again to see what the status is. At this point 223 or 6cm , I just want my ammo back. If I can get 223 I will chrono it as planned but if I can get 6cm or even 6.5cm at this point that's lapua brass and beger bullet ammo I will take it just to be done with this.

 

[Molon]

Pressure Testing Update


We’ll never know what the powder charge weight was for the factory loaded round of Berger 77 grain OTM ammunition that blew-out in my AR-15. We do know for a fact that the weight of the case that blew-out was 99.0 grains. We can also be fairly certain that the weight of the bullet in that round was 77.0 grains, since all of the bullets that I pulled-down from that same lot of ammunition weighed 77.0 grains. We also know that primers from pulled-down rounds in that lot of ammunition had a nominal weight of 3.7 grains.

In addition, we know that Berger’s abysmal quality control resulted in powder charges for the sample of rounds that I pulled-down to range from 21.8 grains to 23.6 grains for this so-called “match grade” ammunition. That’s a spread of 1.8 grains in the powder charge and it’s quite likely that a larger sample size would have detected an even greater spread.

The mean powder charge weight for the small sample that I weighed was 22.41 grains. The standard deviation was 0.447 grains. The mean powder charge weight plus three standard deviations was 23.75 grains.

The pressure testing was conducted in the ballistic lab of one of the leading ammunition manufacturers in the United States. A 24” SAAMI spec 223 Remington pressure and velocity test barrel was used with a PCB conformal pressure sensor. The system was calibrated with SAAMI reference ammunition and additionally the pressure sensor was calibrated to unfired Lapua cases pulled-down from the Berger ammunition.

The SAAMI specification for the maximum average pressure for the 223 Remington cartridge is 55,000 PSI. Ten rounds of the Berger factory loaded 77 grain OTM ammunition were fired from the 223 Remington pressure test barrel. Obviously, we don’t know what the powder charges were for those ten rounds.

You may remember that in the last email that I sent to Mr Praslick (the one that he didn’t even have the common courtesy to reply to) I stated that it would have taken a pressure of over 70,000 PSI to cause such deformities to the cartridge case when fired from an AR-15. The first shot fired from the pressure test barrel had a pressure of 77,919 PSI. Shot #8 had a pressure of 78,369 PSI. That’s 23,369 PSI higher than the SAAMI MAP specification for the 223 Remington cartridge.

The data for all ten shots is summarized in the table below. This data shows that Berger failed miserably in their due diligence in developing and manufacturing this load and releasing this dangerous product for sale to the public.

The data also makes it painfully obvious that this was not a “cycling” issue for semi-automatic AR-15s and that Berger’s safety notice (the one that they didn’t even issue until a month after I informed them of this safety issue and that they didn’t issue until after I had notified them that I was not going to be returning the defective ammunition to them) claiming that this ammunition “may cause function/ignition issues with AR-style gas operating platforms. Bolt action rifles are not affected” was just a whitewashing of their lack of transparency in this matter.

Aside from the huge safety issue with this ammunition, the velocities from the test barrel had an extreme spread of 221 FPS with a standard deviation of 74 FPS. That is beyond pathetic for so-called “match grade” ammunition that cost $1.60 per round.

TTP = time to peak pressure

AT = time to the bullet exiting the muzzle



As I mentioned earlier, a powder charge weight of 23.6 grains was found in the small sample of rounds that I pulled-down and it’s likely that a heavier charge would have been found with a larger sample size. The average powder charge weight plus three standard deviations was 23.75 grains.

For additional testing I pulled-down several more rounds from this lot of the Berger factory loaded ammunition and re-charged those rounds with a powder charge weight of 23.7 grains of the pulled-down powder. The powder was dispensed using an RCBS Match Master powder dispenser. The Match Master dispenser has an advertised accuracy of 0.04 grains. The heaviest Lapua case (accounting for the weight of the primer) of these rounds weighed 97.0 grains.

I seated virgin Berger 77 grain OTM bullets (all of which weighed 77.0 grains) in the re-charged cases to a nominal COAL of 2.260” using a Forster Co-Ax press. Five of these re-charged rounds were fired from the same pressure test barrel described above.

Shot #2 had a pressure of 81,769 PSI. Shot #4 had a pressure of 83,544 PSI with a velocity of 3024 FPS. The results are summarized in the table below.

….

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Holy crap man. Of course this is a little more than even I thought it would be but I knew it had to be way up there given my experience with the same lot of the same ammo. Thank you for the info. Pretty scary stuff here. Even a bolt gun can come apart with that kind of pressure. I would say that ammo isn't safe to shoot period. Of course I have sent all my remaining ammo back to Berger and haven't received any replacement. I also have now sent 2 emails in the last maybe month or so and also not received any reply. I plan to call this week and see what is going on. Theyve had my 17 boxes of ammo for several months now.

 

[6.5SH]

Lucky no one was injured. Disappointing lack of response and action on Berger's part.

 

[Molon]

I have sent all my remaining ammo back to Berger and haven't received any replacement. I also have now sent 2 emails in the last maybe month or so and also not received any reply. I plan to call this week and see what is going on. Theyve had my 17 boxes of ammo for several months now.

That's pathetic service.

..

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

That's pathetic service.

..

Yeah , I mean it really is. I am about to call but I wanted to let the Monday morning craziness get dealt with for them and for myself before I did. I hope I can get some kind of answer and get my ammo.

 

[bfoosh006]

I am not up to speed on the current 5.56 High Pressure Proof load used... ( still M197 ? or something different ? ) ...

But I do know those pressure's readily surpass the 5.56 High Pressure Test load used a few years ago. ( 70,000 PSI ? )
Those pressure figures posted by Molon are very scary. I am glad you are ok.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

That's pathetic service.

..

Well I did call and spoke with a different guy. He basically said he has no idea when they will have the ammo made nor does he know the problem or delay in making it. He told me what it shows for a production schedule and when he got to 6cm I said I would take that instead, (which is what the other guy said he had checked on and that he was given the ok to do). This guy said no, "our policy is to exchange like for like". He couldn't give me any information what so ever and when I asked why they didn't tell me that I'd be waiting for (4 months so far and it sounds like it will be many more months ) to get the ammo replaced Before I sent it back, he said they didn't know then...... That may well be the truth but it still sucks as does the rest of this debacle. Really hard to believe an outfit like Berger can operate like this but I guess it is what it is.

 

[carbonbased]

Re:80,000+ psi
Maybe the the guy at the powder-filling station was dreaming about an Sig Fury??


Joking aside, wow (I know it’s probably all automated). Glad no one is dead.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Welp, I don't think I'll be buying berger ever again with evidence like that. projectiles maybe if they're the only ones that make what I need, but loaded ammo? hell no

 

[BurtG]

Berger Quality!

 

[Molon]

Berger Quality!

View attachment 8074862

What's up with that?

 

[BurtG]

What's up with that?

Bad primer I guess.

Never happened in 10000 rounds of hornady

 

[JBoomhauer]

Berger Quality!

View attachment 8074862

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Update: I received an email today from Mr.Bob (who I had been dealing with on the ammo the whole time, with exception to this last time I called in and got someone else who was much more difficult to deal with than Mr. Bob).

Mr.Bob informed me that he had gotten the 6cm 105 hybrid ammo in and they would be sending me that to replace my 223 recalled ammo. (I didn't ask if that was going to be a 1 to 1 replacement per say so I guess we shall see, but this is good news for me). That ammo has been very hard to get for some time so I suppose this may be a heads up for those who have been looking for it.

 

[Baron23]

Bad primer I guess.

Never happened in 10000 rounds of hornady

Do you know how primers are made?

Do you know the companies in the USA who make primers?

Might want to look into those two questions and consider revising your gratuitous swipe at Berger QC.

 

[BurtG]

Do you know how primers are made?

Do you know the companies in the USA who make primers?

Might want to look into those two questions and consider revising your gratuitous swipe at Berger QC.

Lol
Happened in the first 200 rounds of berger 6 cm.

Hasn’t happened in 10000 rounds of hornady 308/6.5 cm/ 6cm. Not to mention thousands upon thousands of hornady and black hills .223

 

[Baron23]

Lol
Happened in the first 200 rounds of berger 6 cm.

Hasn’t happened in 10000 rounds of hornady 308/6.5 cm/ 6cm. Not to mention thousands upon thousands of hornady and black hills .223

Which is an utterly complete non-answer.

Do you know the companies in the USA who make primers?
"in the U.S., only four domestic manufacturers produce primers: Federal, CCI, Remington and Winchester."

Great Primer Shortage of 2020 - Guns and Ammo

It's no secret that the demand for firearms and ammunition have reached record levels due to the COVID-19 pandemic, the civil unrest in cities around the United States, and the prospect of an anti-gun president on the horizon. As with previous surges in ammunition sales, primers are the current

www.gunsandammo.com

Note who is not on that list....ah, Berger...oh, and Hornady. Oh my.

Do you know how primers are made?



Now, as you can see, Berger doesn't make its own primers...and neither does Hornady. And, it should be clear that while there is a process for making primers, they are certainly not given individual attention during manufacturing...hell, they aren't even individually inspected.

So do you still think your FTF of one primer in a Berger cartridge has absolutely any significance at all. Of course, please feel free to continue to gratuitously throw Berger under the bus out of ignorance.

Lay on, McDuff.

 

[Molon]

This guy said no, "our policy is to exchange like for like".

You should have asked him if it was their policy to load 223 Remington ammunition to a chamber pressure of 78,369 PSI.

....

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

You should have asked him if it was their policy to load 223 Remington ammunition to a chamber pressure of 78,369 PSI.

....

Yeah that is what I should have said to that guy. Mr Bob has been a lot nicer at least, that dude was kind of a jerk and after your ammo nearly blew my gun up, and did blow another gun up, AND having said ammo for 4 months and still not swapping it out, you'd think the guy would be a little bit nicer in general. Glad Mr Bob was the main guy I've dealt with and I appreciate the exchange of 6cm ammo which is much more expensive ammo, but the way Berger has gone about this whole thing generally leaves a lot to be desired imo

 

[264pr]

Pressure Testing Update


We’ll never know what the powder charge weight was for the factory loaded round of Berger 77 grain OTM ammunition that blew-out in my AR-15. We do know for a fact that the weight of the case that blew-out was 99.0 grains. We can also be fairly certain that the weight of the bullet in that round was 77.0 grains, since all of the bullets that I pulled-down from that same lot of ammunition weighed 77.0 grains. We also know that primers from pulled-down rounds in that lot of ammunition had a nominal weight of 3.7 grains.

In addition, we know that Berger’s abysmal quality control resulted in powder charges for the sample of rounds that I pulled-down to range from 21.8 grains to 23.6 grains for this so-called “match grade” ammunition. That’s a spread of 1.8 grains in the powder charge and it’s quite likely that a larger sample size would have detected an even greater spread.

The mean powder charge weight for the small sample that I weighed was 22.41 grains. The standard deviation was 0.447 grains. The mean powder charge weight plus three standard deviations was 23.75 grains.

The pressure testing was conducted in the ballistic lab of one of the leading ammunition manufacturers in the United States. A 24” SAAMI spec 223 Remington pressure and velocity test barrel was used with a PCB conformal pressure sensor. The system was calibrated with SAAMI reference ammunition and additionally the pressure sensor was calibrated to unfired Lapua cases pulled-down from the Berger ammunition.

The SAAMI specification for the maximum average pressure for the 223 Remington cartridge is 55,000 PSI. Ten rounds of the Berger factory loaded 77 grain OTM ammunition were fired from the 223 Remington pressure test barrel. Obviously, we don’t know what the powder charges were for those ten rounds.

You may remember that in the last email that I sent to Mr Praslick (the one that he didn’t even have the common courtesy to reply to) I stated that it would have taken a pressure of over 70,000 PSI to cause such deformities to the cartridge case when fired from an AR-15. The first shot fired from the pressure test barrel had a pressure of 77,919 PSI. Shot #8 had a pressure of 78,369 PSI. That’s 23,369 PSI higher than the SAAMI MAP specification for the 223 Remington cartridge.

The data for all ten shots is summarized in the table below. This data shows that Berger failed miserably in their due diligence in developing and manufacturing this load and releasing this dangerous product for sale to the public.

The data also makes it painfully obvious that this was not a “cycling” issue for semi-automatic AR-15s and that Berger’s safety notice (the one that they didn’t even issue until a month after I informed them of this safety issue and that they didn’t issue until after I had notified them that I was not going to be returning the defective ammunition to them) claiming that this ammunition “may cause function/ignition issues with AR-style gas operating platforms. Bolt action rifles are not affected” was just a whitewashing of their lack of transparency in this matter.

Aside from the huge safety issue with this ammunition, the velocities from the test barrel had an extreme spread of 221 FPS with a standard deviation of 74 FPS. That is beyond pathetic for so-called “match grade” ammunition that cost $1.60 per round.

TTP = time to peak pressure

AT = time to the bullet exiting the muzzle



As I mentioned earlier, a powder charge weight of 23.6 grains was found in the small sample of rounds that I pulled-down and it’s likely that a heavier charge would have been found with a larger sample size. The average powder charge weight plus three standard deviations was 23.75 grains.

For additional testing I pulled-down several more rounds from this lot of the Berger factory loaded ammunition and re-charged those rounds with a powder charge weight of 23.7 grains of the pulled-down powder. The powder was dispensed using an RCBS Match Master powder dispenser. The Match Master dispenser has an advertised accuracy of 0.04 grains. The heaviest Lapua case (accounting for the weight of the primer) of these rounds weighed 97.0 grains.

I seated virgin Berger 77 grain OTM bullets (all of which weighed 77.0 grains) in the re-charged cases to a nominal COAL of 2.260” using a Forster Co-Ax press. Five of these re-charged rounds were fired from the same pressure test barrel described above.

Shot #2 had a pressure of 81,769 PSI. Shot #4 had a pressure of 83,544 PSI with a velocity of 3024 FPS. The results are summarized in the table below.

….

Regarding your test of reloaded rounds with their powder.....the only thing that would produce that wide a spread is a problem with the powder

The most likely explanation is that someone dumped a bulk jug of the wrong powder into the production dispenser and it mixed with the existing/correct powder.....and boom

Saw the results once of a guy that accidentally dispensed pistol powder into 556 rounds......with his normal charge weght.......parts flew everywhere and he was lucky not to be injured

 

[ZA206]

Doesn’t change the fact that their powder charge ES and SD’s were horrific. That ammo is trouble. They deserve a black eye over this!

 

[Molon]

t the way Berger has gone about this whole thing generally leaves a lot to be desired imo

Yup. Their flat out lying to the public and claiming that this was just a cycling issue for AR-15s and that "bolt action rifles are not affected" was despicable.

..

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Yup. Their flat out lying to the public and claiming that this was just a cycling issue for AR-15s and that "bolt action rifles are not affected" was despicable.

..

On the phone Mr Bob told me it was a "pressure curve issue". Obviously, we all know what the issue is now. Their statement that you are referring to is very misleading. They should have just said "we had a serious manufacturing issue" and left it at that. Whoever is in charge at Capstone Precision Group really should reevaluate some things.

 

[357Max]

On the phone Mr Bob told me it was a "pressure curve issue". Obviously, we all know what the issue is now. Their statement that you are referring to is very misleading. They should have just said "we had a serious manufacturing issue" and left it at that. Whoever is in charge at Capstone Precision Group really should reevaluate some things.

Yeah that whole part of the pressure curve above saami max is a bit of an issue.
It’s a shame, conglomerate’s suck the life out of small business CS.
Could be some ass at berger, but could just as likely be someone in legal that watered down the warning/notice.
Not sure if the buck stops @Berger, Capstone, or Nammo group.
Doubt we’ll ever know, but one thing we do know is they can no longer be trusted to be transparent.

I really do wonder if Berger CS hands are tied thanks to their acquisition.
This is probably top of the food chain for crap like this now.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

No telling who makes what call there now.


They did do me right on the ammo. I received today, 17 boxes of 105 gr Hybrid Target 6cm Berger ammo, SRP. (Which is the same brass I shoot already for 6cm I just normally shoot the 108 bthp and 109 LRH). I like having factory ammo I can shoot with a new barrel and then load that brass for the barrel life.

 

[FCS]

Berger Quality!

View attachment 8074862

Quite possible there is no powder in case. Primer probably went off, just no propellant to ignite.
Get a weight of that case with "fired" primer vs another round of that ammo, should be 40-42ish grain difference.

 

[FCS]

Given this data, I'd submit that desired powder charge was probably closer to 22.4 gr.
Would match up well for VV N-530 being the propellant.

Data from:

Rifle reloading data | Handloading | Rifle calibers | Centerfire Rifle bullets | Reload your own ammo - Vihtavuori

Vihtavuori offers rifle reloading data for numerous calibers and bullets for match and hunting purposes. Never exceed maximum loads.

www.vihtavuori.com

Bullet	5,0 g / 77 gr	Lapua, Scenar	C.O.L. 57,4 mm / 2.260 inch
Powder	Starting load	Maximum load
Type	Weight	Velocity	Weight	Velocity
[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]	[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]
N530	1,25	19.3	712	2336	1,44	22.2	812	2664

Bullet	5,0 g / 77 gr	Sierra, HPBT(2	C.O.L. 57,4 mm / 2.260 inch
Powder	Starting load	Maximum load
Type	Weight	Velocity	Weight	Velocity
[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]	[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]
N530	1,28	19.8	712	2336	1,43	22.1	795	2608

Bullet	5,0 g / 77 gr	Sierra, TMK	C.O.L. 57,4 mm / 2.260 inch
Powder	Starting load	Maximum load
Type	Weight	Velocity	Weight	Velocity
[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]	[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]
N530	1,31	20.2	744	2441	1,47	22.7	850	2789

I could see 23.7 gr of N-530 w/77 gr bullet being 75-80 K PSI load.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Given this data, I'd submit that desired powder charge was probably closer to 22.4 gr.
Would match up well for VV N-530 being the propellant.

Data from:

Rifle reloading data | Handloading | Rifle calibers | Centerfire Rifle bullets | Reload your own ammo - Vihtavuori

Vihtavuori offers rifle reloading data for numerous calibers and bullets for match and hunting purposes. Never exceed maximum loads.

www.vihtavuori.com

Bullet	5,0 g / 77 gr	Lapua, Scenar	C.O.L. 57,4 mm / 2.260 inch
Powder	Starting load	Maximum load
Type	Weight	Velocity	Weight	Velocity
[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]	[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]
N530	1,25	19.3	712	2336	1,44	22.2	812	2664

Bullet	5,0 g / 77 gr	Sierra, HPBT(2	C.O.L. 57,4 mm / 2.260 inch
Powder	Starting load	Maximum load
Type	Weight	Velocity	Weight	Velocity
[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]	[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]
N530	1,28	19.8	712	2336	1,43	22.1	795	2608

Bullet	5,0 g / 77 gr	Sierra, TMK	C.O.L. 57,4 mm / 2.260 inch
Powder	Starting load	Maximum load
Type	Weight	Velocity	Weight	Velocity
[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]	[g]	[grs]	[m/s]	[fps]
N530	1,31	20.2	744	2441	1,47	22.7	850	2789

I could see 23.7 gr of N-530 w/77 gr bullet being 75-80 K PSI load.

I think he was referring to the pic with the primer struck that didn't go off, which looks like a 6cm or 6.5cm round instead of the 223 round this thread is about.

 

[FCS]

I think he was referring to the pic with the primer struck that didn't go off, which looks like a 6cm or 6.5cm round instead of the 223 round this thread is about.

Post 295 was about the Berger 6 or 6.5 Creed ammo that BurtG commented on.

Post 296 was about the 223 Berger ammo with 77 OTM that Molon was referencing with powder charge data and possible propellant used.

I apologize for not being more clear on the original posts.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Post 295 was about the Berger 6 or 6.5 Creed ammo that BurtG commented on.

Post 296 was about the 223 Berger ammo with 77 OTM that Molon was referencing with powder charge data and possible propellant used.

I apologize for not being more clear on the original posts.

Roger that. I was tracking. Good info contribution either way. Thanks for laying it out though so it's clear.

 

[Molon]

On the phone Mr Bob told me it was a "pressure curve issue".

Yeah that whole part of the pressure curve above saami max