I've only done it twice now, but on top of the "plug" left from the first time around, I only need to add a small spoonful or two to get up to proper depth.
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Salt bath annealing advice
- Thread starter LA260
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The reason it is cheaper, is because it lack automation. Its the equivalent of buying a simple propane torch and electric screw driver to anneal. I would hazard a guess, it is no more consistent than any of the machines. I am sure its more consistent than a screwdriver and touch. It may be more dummy proof, as far as nor ruining your brass goes, but it greatly slows work doing one process for five seconds per case. I run lots of 1k pieces of brass with 223, and 3-500 in bigger calibers. Not having to dedicate all that time to one process has saved me more time than the money was worth.
But the AMP in its original configuration also lacks automation? Yes, with it you're paying for the tech and that's the best anneal you can get, but those guys are doing it by hand too. If I was running that much brass, I'd probably get something automated too, but I'm loading for one precision rifle and another varmint rifle. My annealing sessions will be 2-300 cases max and it doesn't take that long when you do two cases at a time and get in a rhythm. I don't mind extra time at the bench to cut a little cost, but I'm also a college student with not a lot to do in my free time (in the summer) besides shoot.
I checked the customs/import paperwork and found that it's a mix of potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate. Doing a little more research into molten salt annealing, I found commercial sources in the U.S., pulled up an MSDS for the same combo and found it to be roughly a 2 to 1 ratio with potassium nitrate the major component. I ordered pharmacy grade through Amazon, 2# PN and 1# SN for my additional mix. Should be enough to keep my pot going for many years.
I was thinking of Giruad, Annealeze, and what ever the other two torch machine is. I wasn't even aware of some of the stuff on the Amp sight. Pretty cool tech, but lack automation. Probably the safest option. But if someone burns down their garage with a little propane torch, or burns their arm off with a few ounces of molten salt..... well.....
I can guarantee I would have had one of these in the days i was using a torch and drill.
For doing large quantities like a thousand .223 it might be a bit slow but still not as slow as the torch method. Once the salt bath setup is temperature stabilized, I could easily process 300 rounds per hour with my salt bath system without setting off the CO detector.
For doing large quantities like a thousand .223 it might be a bit slow but still not as slow as the torch method. Once the salt bath setup is temperature stabilized, I could easily process 300 rounds per hour with my salt bath system without setting off the CO detector.
Its way slower than doing something else while my Giruad does them all.
Someone needs to feed them into the hopper and dump the tray before it overflows and brass rolls off the bench onto the floor. Besides the Giraud instructions explicitly warn to not run it unattended.Its way slower than doing something else while my Giruad does them all.
Someone needs to feed them into the hopper and dump the tray before it overflows and brass rolls off the bench onto the floor. Besides the Giraud instructions explicitly warn to not run it unattended.
OMG Some has to fill the machine, and collect the brass that it processed. Is that not what we are doing? I am not sure what you are getting at?
Leaving a machine "unattended" and doing something else while it does your work are not the same thing.
Guys who paid out the ass for an automated torch annealer are going to say their system is better, more consistent, faster, whatever adjective they like. Those of us who bought the salt bath system and have used it know what a good, and economical system it is.
I process 100-200 pieces of brass at a time. I love my salt bath annealed. Super simple and much more controlled that a torch. I personally think it's nuts to drop $1K on an annealing setup. But that's just me.
You can buy the potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate from here.......Duda Diesel and as much as you want.
Ballistic Recreation uses a Mil Spec mixture that can be found online. I mixed mine 50/50 which is within spec.
Ballistic Recreation uses a Mil Spec mixture that can be found online. I mixed mine 50/50 which is within spec.
Whats with the division between annealing peoples? Why does one have to be "better"? Just use the tool that fits the task. You don't need to spring for a pneumatic nail gun (AMP, etc) if you only need to pound a few nails once in a while with a claw hammer (salt bath).
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Glad you clarified what you were trying to get across!OMG Some has to fill the machine, and collect the brass that it processed. Is that not what we are doing? I am not sure what you are getting at?
Leaving a machine "unattended" and doing something else while it does your work are not the same thing.
It is faster. You can't anneal a case as fast in salt bath, its simple physics. A flame is hotter.
Not as simple as you might think. Liquids transfer heat 25x better then air. I would estimate very similar times based on the propane annealing machines I’ve seen.
Everyone is saying 5 seconds on their salt bath system. My Giruad is generally around 3 seconds per cases. And I don't have to grab the next one. Or move the first one out of the way.
Water transfers heat 25x faster than air. Not all liquids have the same heat transfer rates.
That’s correct not all liquids are the same.
But your ignorant statement about it’s faster because it’s hotter is simply your opinion.
I think there are certain benefits to both methods. Quantity being the main one..... automated process vs hand dipping. Never took sides, just correcting statement that would have to be proven by an engineer or chemist.
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I've only used my twice now, so maybe this will change, but so far, the salt shrinks away from the sides into a "puck" that I just dump out once its cooled.
I've used mine a few dozen times and no luck. Once I figure it out I'll let everyone know my new found voodoo trick.
First it was ignorant, then it was an opinion. Can't be both. Then you claim to have corrected something that could only someone else would know. LOL. You just keep being special.
I stand by my statement.
And now the big man is name calling.
Someone please pull this thread out of the weeds......
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I've had the same experience - I just let it cool about an hour then cover with foil over night then dump the big puck out in the morning and store in a old coolwhip container.
Once the puck cools it fits in the container the salts came in just fine. No VooDoo involved just the simplest heat accurate method other than computer controlled induction annealing at about a tenth of the price!
I don't really care how dangerous it is perceived to be, the danger is only relative to the skill set of the operator.
I don't really care how dangerous it is perceived to be, the danger is only relative to the skill set of the operator.
Just FYI, when you splash some on your skin, it doesn't hurt or catch you on fire or anything. It just plastisizes and flakes off, no big deal.
I tried my salt bath Annealing kit today. It was easy to set up and use. I’m looking farward to swing if there is a noticeable benefit when shooting.
2x fires Lapua 308 brass and virgin 338 RCM brass for the test run. 5 seconds @ 500 C°
I used a cut down 30/30 brass to adjust the placement of annealing.
2x fires Lapua 308 brass and virgin 338 RCM brass for the test run. 5 seconds @ 500 C°
I used a cut down 30/30 brass to adjust the placement of annealing.
Attachments
I do not use a cut down case for my 308 or 300WM but do use one for .556 , any piece of brass will work as long as it fits the kit hardware, you simply cut to desired length.
Figured I would share my experience with Salt Bath Annealing as annealing is something I wanted to do for a long time but the fire way seemed crude going the low cost way and a little expensive with me only needed to anneal a few hundred cases per year.
I saw the system you can buy online, but I like to do things myself so I bought the Lee melter on Amazon as well as a relay, temperature controller, and thermonuclear so that I could dial the temperature exactly where I wanted it and the controller would keep it there. I also bought the Sodium Nitrate and Potassium Nitrate salt online rather cheap and I use a 60 Sodium/40 Potassium mix based on some reading I did other places. Below is some pictures of my setup.
I typically set the temperature controller to 550 C and even with my processing brass it doesn't go below 510 C. The thermal couple is rated to 800 C.
For the jig or shell holder, I'm on my second design. I use a 4" diameter SS plate with one hole drilled to work with .223 based cases and drilled another hole to work with .308 based cases. I tried running a jig that allowed you to anneal two cases at once like some of the videos, but I found it harder to keep the correct dwell times. My top plate differs from others as it rests on the top of the melter with space cut out for the screws on the melter. I then have a sub-plate that is a stop for the cases that is attached with three SS screws. I added a screw and some nuts to reduce the depth on the .223 hole as you can see. I also drilled a hole for the thermal couple. I used a floor jack to make an indention in the middle so that the liquid salt would run back into the bath (first one I built ran over the side).
For dwell time I use an app on my phone which will tick every 5 seconds (Metronome).
There are some changes I still want to make to the jig but overall the system works great and less then $100 into it. Below are some of the things I noticed about using the system.
Getting a splash of salt is similar to cooking bacon. Stings but I'll get over it.
I suggest de-priming before dipping it into the salt. I've had powder residue left in the shells that will burn do to the heat. The good news is with the shell plate covering all of the salt, it stays contained. I think the primers were also causing a vacuum and holding additional salt before I put it in the water which would cause a little splashing of hot liquid.
I use a cookie sheet to put the salt system in so that if any of the "lava" spills it is contained.
If the salt gets a little low on the case, I just weight out a few grams of the mixed salt and add it to the bath to bring the level up. I can do around 200 cases before needing to add 10 grams of more salt.
I know everyone says to take the salt puck out of the melter, but I just leave it in. Maybe it makes more cracking noises when I heat it again due to moisture, but otherwise no problem. I've left in in there for 4 months without issues. In fact, most of the times I leave my jig in the melter with the solid salt puck and don't worry about it. I consider the jig, melter, and salts to all be consumables that will need replacement sooner or later.
Like everyone else, after I dip the case in the salt I throw them in a bucket of water. After I'm done, the cases go into my SS wet tumbler for a quick rinse. Yes it is more steps, but doing things right typically is more steps.
Hopefully this helps other that want to start annealing. Yes automatic machines are great, but even if I had one I don't think I would set it up just to do 50 cases. This way I can process 50 cases in a few minutes when I come back from the range.
I saw the system you can buy online, but I like to do things myself so I bought the Lee melter on Amazon as well as a relay, temperature controller, and thermonuclear so that I could dial the temperature exactly where I wanted it and the controller would keep it there. I also bought the Sodium Nitrate and Potassium Nitrate salt online rather cheap and I use a 60 Sodium/40 Potassium mix based on some reading I did other places. Below is some pictures of my setup.
I typically set the temperature controller to 550 C and even with my processing brass it doesn't go below 510 C. The thermal couple is rated to 800 C.
For the jig or shell holder, I'm on my second design. I use a 4" diameter SS plate with one hole drilled to work with .223 based cases and drilled another hole to work with .308 based cases. I tried running a jig that allowed you to anneal two cases at once like some of the videos, but I found it harder to keep the correct dwell times. My top plate differs from others as it rests on the top of the melter with space cut out for the screws on the melter. I then have a sub-plate that is a stop for the cases that is attached with three SS screws. I added a screw and some nuts to reduce the depth on the .223 hole as you can see. I also drilled a hole for the thermal couple. I used a floor jack to make an indention in the middle so that the liquid salt would run back into the bath (first one I built ran over the side).
For dwell time I use an app on my phone which will tick every 5 seconds (Metronome).
There are some changes I still want to make to the jig but overall the system works great and less then $100 into it. Below are some of the things I noticed about using the system.
Getting a splash of salt is similar to cooking bacon. Stings but I'll get over it.
I suggest de-priming before dipping it into the salt. I've had powder residue left in the shells that will burn do to the heat. The good news is with the shell plate covering all of the salt, it stays contained. I think the primers were also causing a vacuum and holding additional salt before I put it in the water which would cause a little splashing of hot liquid.
I use a cookie sheet to put the salt system in so that if any of the "lava" spills it is contained.
If the salt gets a little low on the case, I just weight out a few grams of the mixed salt and add it to the bath to bring the level up. I can do around 200 cases before needing to add 10 grams of more salt.
I know everyone says to take the salt puck out of the melter, but I just leave it in. Maybe it makes more cracking noises when I heat it again due to moisture, but otherwise no problem. I've left in in there for 4 months without issues. In fact, most of the times I leave my jig in the melter with the solid salt puck and don't worry about it. I consider the jig, melter, and salts to all be consumables that will need replacement sooner or later.
Like everyone else, after I dip the case in the salt I throw them in a bucket of water. After I'm done, the cases go into my SS wet tumbler for a quick rinse. Yes it is more steps, but doing things right typically is more steps.
Hopefully this helps other that want to start annealing. Yes automatic machines are great, but even if I had one I don't think I would set it up just to do 50 cases. This way I can process 50 cases in a few minutes when I come back from the range.
@ChadJamesR , nice write-up. I too have been looking at going with the salt-bath method.
As to your own 'salt mix' have you come upon any issues with that? I ask, because that looks to be the cheapest method of getting started. There's quite the difference in prices of the 'pre-made' salt it seems, between US and Canada and whatnot. Whereas, getting the base ingredients and making one's own, should be goodest.
I especially like the fact that you needed to start your process off with a "thermonuclear". Everyone should have at least two on hand. HA.
I've got a few of the Lyman lead melters handy, and am looking to set one of them up with this. So many projects, so little time....
Forgot to ask: How much of each did you need to pick up, to get started? Just curious on the volumes.
As to your own 'salt mix' have you come upon any issues with that? I ask, because that looks to be the cheapest method of getting started. There's quite the difference in prices of the 'pre-made' salt it seems, between US and Canada and whatnot. Whereas, getting the base ingredients and making one's own, should be goodest.
I especially like the fact that you needed to start your process off with a "thermonuclear". Everyone should have at least two on hand. HA.
I've got a few of the Lyman lead melters handy, and am looking to set one of them up with this. So many projects, so little time....
Forgot to ask: How much of each did you need to pick up, to get started? Just curious on the volumes.
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I bought my salts from Duda Energy in 1lb bags. The shipping was more then the salt cost, so I would suggest to buy more salt then just the 1lb bags. Granted even with 1lb of each salt, I'll probably have enough to last a year or two. If I did it again I would buy 3lb of the Sodium Nitrate and 2lb of the Potassium Nitrate so that I had the proper ratio. Although I still weight out and mix only the amount I plan to use immediately as just tossing them in the bag together will not give an even mixture.
On a side note, I read some places that using the salt in this way will cause a lot of rust in the room you use it in. I haven't seen this at all. I use my in my basement and even the pliers I use to take the cases out of the salt bath haven't formed any rust on them and they are coated in salt. I'm sure I'll need to replace them at some point, but I've found all of the negatives mentioned about this process to be unfounded. Maybe some people are just trying to justify their expensive process or protect their business model surrounding other methods. Not that other method aren't good, but each method has its advantages and disadvantage.
On a side note, I read some places that using the salt in this way will cause a lot of rust in the room you use it in. I haven't seen this at all. I use my in my basement and even the pliers I use to take the cases out of the salt bath haven't formed any rust on them and they are coated in salt. I'm sure I'll need to replace them at some point, but I've found all of the negatives mentioned about this process to be unfounded. Maybe some people are just trying to justify their expensive process or protect their business model surrounding other methods. Not that other method aren't good, but each method has its advantages and disadvantage.
Thanks for the write-up. I've been on the fence whether to built a torch annealer or put together a salt bath annealer. After doing a lot of research, I'm going to try the salt bath annealer. I bought 5lbs of the potassium and sodium nitrate today. I will build another PID controller in order to maintain the temperature and I need to buy another Lee melting pot. I use to have all of this stuff when I cast boolits but I got rid of everything several years ago ;-( I do have some parts laying around for the PID controller so it shouldn't be too costly.
That sounds like an option I would like to try. Seeing how those kits are not in stock at the moment, I'll look into sourcing the glass bead blasting media. I have a Lee melter, just need to fab the stand for the shells which should not be too hard and buy the thermometer.
Any idea how many seconds at 800 degrees?
You guys are really over thinking this simple, safe, and proven process. The problems begin when you start experimenting. Take a look at the Lee melter, you would have to work to upset it. It's covered with a stainless plate so no dropping and splashing. you wear gloves and set a case in for 4 to 5 seconds and lift it out dropping into a bucket of water on the floor or in my case sitting in a desk drawer about a foot below the surface where the melter sits. And no wasted test brass.
I got the glass media on ebay. Use the same timing as with liquid, i.e., 1st case in, 2nd case in, 1st case out, 3rd case in, ect...Maybe 5 to 8 seconds dwell time.
The case holder from Ballistic Recreations is really handy.
Case Holder
The glass media sounds interesting in as much as the water quench would not be needed to remove salts, I have the Ballistic Recreations kit with enough salt to last me a lifetime so I probably will not do the glass unless it proves to be the better option. Please keep us posted!
As Badfinger said this is not as complicated or dangerous as others make it out to be!, would I use this method if I had a Palsey or other twitchy muscle/nervous system disorder or happen to be a Total Spazz! ? , probably not!
As Badfinger said this is not as complicated or dangerous as others make it out to be!, would I use this method if I had a Palsey or other twitchy muscle/nervous system disorder or happen to be a Total Spazz! ? , probably not!
It would be interesting to track how long these things last. If the jig and melter are more or less consumable in this process. How long they last would be critical to how economical this is as system.
I should be set-up with my salt bath annealing rig by this weekend. Most of my parts are in and I'm almost done building my PID temp controller. I'll post up my progress once I'm complete and running in the DIY section. I made my own top plate and shell holder for the Lee melter with scraps I had laying around my shop. From the research I've done, this is a much more dummy-proof method ofannealing verses a flame. I also have some 750* templac to use on my cartridges to find the correct amount of time.
Honestly when I first looked into salt bath annealing, I was worried about having molten salt "exploding" from the melter due to water as this is a common concern. In reality I've accidentally annealed a case (more then once) that wasn't fully dry inside to the point of dripping water when turning the case over to anneal. All that happened was a concerning sound of the water instantly evaporating. The metal plate on top of the melter kept everything contained and the episode lasted about a second.
Even worse I had a 5.56 round where the bullet was pushed back in the case and then picked up with my pile of cases from the range. Luckily I found the semi-loaded round before I tried to anneal it, but powder did escape and fell into other cases wen tumbling. Even having the gun powder go into the melter and light on fire was more of a visual concern then actual problem. This is why I now always deprime before annealing as I don't want to set off a charge or primer while annealing.
Take precautions with safety glasses, gloves, pliers, etc and I really don't find this way of annealing very dangerous. We are in a sport that any mistake could easily end up with someone getting shot or killed, but we take precautions in our sport and I haven't shot or killed anyone yet. This is no different. Yes it can be dangerous, but only as dangerous as you make it.
Even worse I had a 5.56 round where the bullet was pushed back in the case and then picked up with my pile of cases from the range. Luckily I found the semi-loaded round before I tried to anneal it, but powder did escape and fell into other cases wen tumbling. Even having the gun powder go into the melter and light on fire was more of a visual concern then actual problem. This is why I now always deprime before annealing as I don't want to set off a charge or primer while annealing.
Take precautions with safety glasses, gloves, pliers, etc and I really don't find this way of annealing very dangerous. We are in a sport that any mistake could easily end up with someone getting shot or killed, but we take precautions in our sport and I haven't shot or killed anyone yet. This is no different. Yes it can be dangerous, but only as dangerous as you make it.
I'll keep everyone updated on how long my system lasts. It actually seems like the more I use it the less corrosion forms. When I first tried it I didn't use it again for a couple of months and it formed some surface rust. In the last month I've been using it every weekend and it seems to have less corrosion on it.
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