Salt bath annealing advice

[Sean the Nailer]

Just an opinion here, but I have a hard time thinking/seeing the equipment 'degrading' over any decent time-frame. If anything, I'm guessing that the lifespan of infrastructure would be in the decades, from outward appearances.
(disclaimer: No, I don't have the salt set-up yet, but I'm looking at doing so. I do have a few Lyman lead melters with the bottom-pour valves that are quite rusty due to previous owners lack of storage care. They still work perfectly fine and they are decades old.)

I could be totally wrong, and am more than willing to learn-so. As it is, I'm just looking to pick up the individual components and them mix them myself here. As time progresses, I'm working on stepping this system up a notch.

 

[wapiti16b]

As far as corrosion is concerned corrosion resistant finishes on metal such as bluing/salt bath nitriding have been around a long time!
I've seen no corrosion on my kit as of yet, just a bronze/browning of the metal.

 

[sabrecross]

Just finished building my shell holder, PID controller, and doing a test run with boiling water. Still waiting for my salt to arrive in the mail. I'm using brass hardware for the shell holder assembly which is below the steel top plate.

 

[wapiti16b]

I spy with my little eye a belted magnum!, which one?

 

[sabrecross]

I spy with my little eye a belted magnum!, which one?

7mm RM

 

[Drewski2324]

When taking the brass out of the quench bucket, does anyone have a problem with residual salt being left on your brass? I had some show up in my primer pockets. Air dried the brass with the case head up.

I did have that problem also. I accidentally left some cases in the quench water and they are slightly discolored now. Time will tell if there is any structural difference going forward.

 

[clcustom1911]

Where's the best deal on replacement salts?

I just picked up a pound each of Sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate separately on am-zon.

60% sodium 40% potassium mix. Just did a batch with the replacement salts yesterday and I'm still here. The Temps and times were the same.

 

[Mordamer]

The PID controllers are not necessary. On the small Lee pot if you wire the heat element directly to 120V and anneal as fast as you can with 2 holes in the Shell plate the salt will maintain a steady state of right around 900 degrees F.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

The PID controllers are not necessary. On the small Lee pot if you wire the heat element directly to 120V and anneal as fast as you can with 2 holes in the Shell plate the salt will maintain a steady state of right around 900 degrees F.

Agreed. If I set the rheostat just over 8 it stays at 520C using a sixty BPM metronome.

 

[CUBUFF89]

Tag as I just got my set-up yesterday and ready to try it for the first time.

 

[sabrecross]

The PID controllers are not necessary. On the small Lee pot if you wire the heat element directly to 120V and anneal as fast as you can with 2 holes in the Shell plate the salt will maintain a steady state of right around 900 degrees F.

I disagree. I've been using Lee pots for boolit casting for years as well as annealing brass (last several months with the brass). The temp constantly fluctuates and the PID is constantly working to maintain a constant temp. The rheostat on the LEE pot is very unpredictable.

 

[Mordamer]

I disagree. I've been using Lee pots for boolit casting for years as well as annealing brass (last several months with the brass). The temp constantly fluctuates and the PID is constantly working to maintain a constant temp. The rheostat on the LEE pot is very unpredictable.

You ignored the part of my post where I said wire the heat element directly to 120V. This bypasses the rheostat and gives a constant heat transfer. There is no fluctuation with this method and in my experience the salt will not reach over 1100 degrees F even if left on continuously with no annealing being done. When annealing at pretty much top speed alternating between 2 holes in the top plate you cannot get the pot temp to fall below 900 degrees F.

 

[sabrecross]

You ignored the part of my post where I said wire the heat element directly to 120V. This bypasses the rheostat and gives a constant heat transfer. There is no fluctuation with this method and in my experience the salt will not reach over 1100 degrees F even if left on continuously with no annealing being done. When annealing at pretty much top speed alternating between 2 holes in the top plate you cannot get the pot temp to fall below 900 degrees F.

I disagree. Depending on what size cases your annealing, like the big magnums, the temp drops quick.

 

[CUBUFF89]

Then that would be what to test. Does annealing to 932 degrees (500 Celcius) cause over-annealing? Next time I do a batch, I'll chuck a sacrificial case in there and leave it for like 30 seconds and pull it with tongs, see what happens.

Did anyone ever try this to see what happens?

 

[LA260]

Did anyone ever try this to see what happens?

I dont have a pic @30sec. you could tell the heat was moving towards the case head but nothing crazy. The 308 in the pic was in the bath for 2 mins.

 

[winniedonkey]

Been having problems getting the salt to hockey puck after cool down and with not shooting much lately I got a nice(expected) reminder about salt and metal....dont be like me unless you like ordering Lee melting pots.

 

[Rootshot]

Been having problems getting the salt to hockey puck after cool down and with not shooting much lately I got a nice(expected) reminder about salt and metal....dont be like me unless you like ordering Lee melting pots.

I've got the same problem. When the salt cools, it down't pull away from the walls of the pot and is stuck. For now, I simply cover the pot with a small stainless bowl until I find something better to keep moisture out.

 

[wapiti16b]

Wipe your pot down with a damp paper towel before use and let dry, anneal your brass and let cool . I store mine uncovered and do so before each use and have had no problems so far, however I live in a dry climate!
If this does not work you can always put the pot&puck in a freezer and it should break free!

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Is the LEE pot the only thing used by everyone, or is (by chance) anyone using a Lyman pot? I ask, because I've already got two of these 'bottom pour' pots that I don't have any problem with tapping and plugging one of the pots for this purpose.

As such, just buying the salts is the cheapest investment for me at this time.

But seeing as I still DO have time, I have a couple ideas percolating in the back of my head. So anyone else use Lyman, or anything but LEE?

 

[CUBUFF89]

The thing about using a Lyman pot is that the shellholder from BR is specifically sized for the Lee. So if you're not going to use his shellholder I don't see why you couldn't use any furnace you already have. But the shellholder is very convenient for controlling the depth.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Anyone have any guidance one what the PID controller to use? I want to do annealing like this, but bn I want to get one of the PID controllers. Amazon has them for like 30 bux, might as well give it a shot and see what happens. Can you wire a PID upnto normal 110 in a house or does it need to be 220

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Anyone have any guidance one what the PID controller to use? I want to do annealing like this, but bn I want to get one of the PID controllers. Amazon has them for like 30 bux, might as well give it a shot and see what happens. Can you wire a PID upnto normal 110 in a house or does it need to be 220

For PID controllers, I personally (and highly) recommend "Auber Instruments" and their website is: https://www.auberins.com/

I have no affiliation with them whatsoever, though I have purchased a number of items in the past and they are very well priced, very helpful, and have one heck of a selection. You can contact them directly as well, with regards to specific questions/issues that may arise.

And yeah, I'll be getting another one from them, for this salt-build that I am doing. Just as soon as I finish off a few other irons I've got in the fire.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

For PID controllers, I personally (and highly) recommend "Auber Instruments" and their website is: https://www.auberins.com/

I have no affiliation with them whatsoever, though I have purchased a number of items in the past and they are very well priced, very helpful, and have one heck of a selection. You can contact them directly as well, with regards to specific questions/issues that may arise.

And yeah, I'll be getting another one from them, for this salt-build that I am doing. Just as soon as I finish off a few other irons I've got in the fire.

Thanks, I'll check that out

 

[Bradu]

AMP annealing did a study on this and posted the results today. I know some people will say it's a biased test but I will post a link anyways.

Salt Bath Annealing - Does It Work? | Learn More | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

 

[Ryridesmotox]

I don't know the guys behind the amp stuff. So I'm not going to be a dick about their research there. But they are selling a competitive product. I wonder if there are other studies out there. I'll test my Googlefu later tonight.

 

[MarkLeupold]

I don't know the gues behind the amp stuff. So I'm not going to be a dick about their research there. But they are selling a competitive product. I wonder if there are other studies out there. I'll test my Googlefu later tonight.

Most of what I've seen is based in industrial applications. It provides some insight, but not truly applicable to what we are trying to do. I'm glad to see AMP has done some research and maybe that will prompt someone into doing some more independent testing to validate their claims.

If salt bath truly doesn't work, well, I'm out $100, so no big deal.

 

[spife7980]

AMP annealing did a study on this and posted the results today. I know some people will say it's a biased test but I will post a link anyways.

Salt Bath Annealing - Does It Work? | Learn More | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

Whelp... that settles that.

 

[Ruskin]

Very interesting. There’s a lot of data in that test. Very impressed.

 

[memilanuk]

I wonder if there are other studies out there. I'll test my Googlefu later tonight.

I highly doubt you'll find much... that's been part of the 'appeal' of the AMP setup, that it's actually got some hard science behind it, with the testing to back it up. Unfortunately, it's kind of a niche application - first, consumer level reloading, and second, annealing - so the only people with the time and $$$ to get that sort of testing done are ones that have some sort of financial investment. Doesn't necessarily mean that they're *wrong*, but it's not the 'objective third party' sort of thing that we all seem to want.

...But if you *do* find something, please, do share!

 

[Cascade Hemi]

What was the hardness of AMPS 308 cases fired eight times prior to annealing?

 

[clcustom1911]

Well, by some overnight miracle, it became apparently apparent we found out the heat applied by salt bath annealing doesn't work anymore... only heat applied by induction works.....apparently the most expensive home annealing setup says the cheapest home setup doesn't work to their standard.

No shit. That's like saying we found out a Chevy LTZ 1500 4x4 is nicer and has greater capabilities than a bare bones Chevy 1500 LS trim.

I wonder how I can tell a difference in effort to seat the same bullets in the same cases in non-annealed vs cases I just annealed in my SBA setup. It's easier in the annealed cases, FYI.

Good thing I already have 20 identical rounds: 10 loaded in non-annealed and 10 loaded in annealed to test once the weather stops being stupid around here.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

apparently the most expensive home annealing setup says the cheapest home setup doesn't work to their standard.

If you were selling a device that costs more than a house payment, would you rather compete against a device your customers can make in their garage for less than $100 or devices costing many hundreds of dollars they can't make themselves?

 

[Bradu]

If you were selling a device that costs more than a house payment, would you rather compete against a device your customers can make in their garage for less than $100 or devices costing many hundreds of dollars they can't make themselves?

Isn't that like saying Savage is a direct competitor for Accuracy international? As I said before, different target audience.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

As I said before, different target audience.

When was the last time you saw AI make a statement about Savage rifles? Clearly AMP doesn't agree with you.

 

[Bradu]

When was the last time you saw AI make a statement about Savage rifles? Clearly AMP doesn't agree with you.

 

[Bradu]

And the answer is there is no curiosity about whether a savage shoots. I think AMP was curious as to whether this worked as well as people claim. Simple as that. Has anyone else done actual thorough testing on sba? Let me guess, it lowered my sd's so it has to work. In that case, refer to my other post in one of these threads where i replied to clcustom.

 

[wapiti16b]

One test is not conclusive, I will reserve my opinion until more tests are conducted by parties with no interest or opinion in either product/proceedure!

 

[SupressYourself]

I'm disappointed... in the testing. They start out by saying they're going to show why it cannot work, but they don't actually do that.
I'd like to know how they explain the "anomaly" where higher salt temperature and prolonged exposure appears to reduce the hardness further down the shoulder and body, but not the neck.
The neck, shoulder, and upper body appear to be similar thickness, yet the shoulder and upper body get much softer with prolonged exposure, but not the neck? How can that be explained in terms of general metallurgy?

 

[MarkLeupold]

I wonder how I can tell a difference in effort to seat the same bullets in the same cases in non-annealed vs cases I just annealed in my SBA setup. It's easier in the annealed cases, FYI.

Because the cases are still being annealed and softened. It still "works," just not to the standard that they have set for their own machines. They said that 95-100 HV is optimally annealed and, through their other testing, that anything over 120 HV is doing nothing for sizing and seating consistency. Take that how you will, but they laid that fact out there long before they had SBA on their radar.

I'd like to know how they explain the "anomaly" where higher salt temperature and prolonged exposure appears to reduce the hardness further down the shoulder and body, but not the neck.
The neck, shoulder, and upper body appear to be similar thickness, yet the shoulder and upper body get much softer with prolonged exposure, but not the neck? How can that be explained in terms of general metallurgy?

There was a discussion about this on Facebook with AMP and they said that they really didn't know why either. Their theory was that the shoulder and body presented more surface area to the salts, thus soaking in heat more quickly. AMP really didn't want to expand on the subject as they didn't feel they had enough evidence, data, and thought on the specific anomaly to make an informed conclusion.

 

[wapiti16b]

AMP also does not mention specific temperatures for proper annealing of any specific case, only that their software address's the need per specific case!, as far as the anomally between case neck and body goes the neck under goes more stress than the body as far as common sense would dictate. I reitterate, I will reserve opinion once testing is done from multiple sources removed from the two processes and their manufacturers. I do have a dog in this fight as I use SBA and have used flame torch in the past. I do not load commercially only for myself and I do not currently compete but I do demand the best I can afford along with the utmost accuracy!
The surface area annomally proposed by AMP should be negated by SBA depth control should it not?.

I would like an explaination of what the difference between 500C SBA & 500C Induction is as it pertains to brass metalurgy, after all 500c is 500c is it not? , I can only surmise the time duration might be the determining factor.
I'm just a garage reloader looking for impartial scientific information!

 

[spife7980]

I would like an explaination of what the difference between 500C SBA & 500C Induction is as it pertains to brass metalurgy, after all 500c is 500c is it not? , I can only surmise the time duration might be the determining factor.
I'm just a garage reloader looking for impartial scientific information!

Well the salts has one substance that’s hot and it has to transmit that heat to a second thing through conduction. It doesn’t appear to do a very good job of it as far as hardness testing goes. Just like you can touch a hot thing for a brief moment without burning yourself, it’s not an instant transfer of energy.

Induction takes the second thing itself and directly makes it hot via electromagnetism. The case is the thing that’s producing the heat. It doesn’t have to transfer heat to or from anything, it’s instant. You can stick your finger in the induction gap and it won’t do anything to you so to think of it as just a difference in 500 this vs 500 that is a flawed perspective on the situation.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

I'm still finding this topic interesting, and 'somewhat elusive' at the same time. The first thing that comes to my mind with regards to the AMP testing of the salt-bath, is 'were the brass de-primed?' Methinks that simply using primed (dead) brass would prevent the salt-bath from entering the neck, and sway the results.

Or am I overly-suspicious of a manufacturing entity to Brand Management and all that. I'm just curious, because I too am interested in this salt-bath method. Add to that, the 'additional parts and infrastructure' that I've got here, and it could work out to a "very happy outcome". That is, of course, if the actual salt-bath will actually anneal the actual brass.

Can anyone ELSE say that this 800+ degree medium DOESN'T actually work? If not, why not?

 

[SupressYourself]

Well the salts has one substance that’s hot and it has to transmit that heat to a second thing through conduction. It doesn’t appear to do a very good job of it as far as hardness testing goes.

Yet apparently conduction works well enough to significantly soften parts of the case that are not even submerged in the salt while the neck seems to resist softening. That does not compute.

 

[Fig]

 

[memilanuk]

Yet apparently conduction works well enough to significantly soften parts of the case that are not even submerged in the salt while the neck seems to resist softening. That does not compute.

Actually, the way I read it, the relevant portions were submerged:

to a depth so that the neck, shoulder and 5 mm of body were in the liquid.

...which makes me wonder if there is some sort of temperature gradient going on, with the levels closer to the surface / skin of the liquid being hotter than where the neck is. Seems the opposite of how I'd expect it to work, but I don't have a good answer either.

 

[MarkLeupold]

...which makes me wonder if there is some sort of temperature gradient going on, with the levels closer to the surface / skin of the liquid being hotter than where the neck is. Seems the opposite of how I'd expect it to work, but I don't have a good answer either.

Well, that is how convection would work, the hotter material becoming less dense, rising to the top, cooling off, and then sinking back to the bottom of the pot.

 

[memilanuk]

Well, that is how convection would work, the hotter material becoming less dense, rising to the top, cooling off, and then sinking back to the bottom of the pot.

True... but I would expect the level closer to the surface to be a little cooler due to heat loss, as compared to where the neck is. I mean we're not talking very far, even on a magnum sized case, for that kind of gradient.

 

[MarkLeupold]

True... but I would expect the level closer to the surface to be a little cooler due to heat loss, as compared to where the neck is. I mean we're not talking very far, even on a magnum sized case, for that kind of gradient.

Right, I wouldn't think the gradient to be extreme enough to cause an anomaly like this on the small scale that it is.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

So now 'they're saying' that the salt-bath has a thermocline?

 

[spife7980]

So now 'they're saying' that the salt-bath has a thermocline?

Yeah... sure... so long as you realize that "they" is just milanuk and markleupold and that its only a hypothesis in an online forum with no actual data.