Correct. I hit at least 3-4 different forums for reloading goodness on top of my own experience of about 10 years now.
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salt bath annealing does not work
- Thread starter Winny94
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Correct. I hit at least 3-4 different forums for reloading goodness on top of my own experience of about 10 years now.
No doubt the diversity is here for certain. But the degree of measuring success is where things part rather quickly.I'm sure you've noticed... but most of the 'better' competitors, even in BR (and F-class) don't post there all that much... for much the same reasons you mentioned. Way too many internet 'High Masters'.
Then again, you have to have the B.S. filter turned up pretty high in some parts of the 'Hide as well
Yes... but to some degree I've started coming back here for some reloading stuff. Some stuff that is a little outside the 'mainstream' norm over there is more easily accepted here, and it's easier to find persons willing to discuss those sorts of things.
On either site, when lesser experienced people start calling out those that understand, it never ends well.
I actually laughed out loud at figs post, and agreed with a lot of it because I see it weekly, and the "I'm mad and taking my knowledge elsewhere" cracks me up. Bye
But he minimized the significance a little too much.
Do you mind if I start a thread with a poll as to how long you will last this time? 25 bucks per vote, winner take all. Not sure if money will work, the button pushing will get heavy.
Does NOTHING for me, and you can brag about your groups all you want. Doesn’t means you can shoot AT ALL.
I’ve taught hundreds of students in the narrow areas where I actually am an expert. I’ve taken remedial classes in areas where I have extensive knowledge. In the former case you can’t teach someone who knows everything (even if it’s wrong), and in the latter case one word responses usually work best.
In short, humility ought to go hand in hand with knowledge. I thought I was quite a marksman till my first PRS match. Thank God I approached it hat in hand. Arrogant fucks are fine, but you had better get your facts straight first and be able to dance. I didn’t leave because I wanted to deprive them of my vast knowledge and intellect. I left because, “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” Mark Twain
I have never bragged about my shooting, nor did I question yours or your skills. I'm no BR guy.
Does NOTHING for me, and you can brag about your groups all you want. Doesn’t means you can shoot AT ALL.
I’ve taught hundreds of students in the narrow areas where I actually am an expert. I’ve taken remedial classes in areas where I have extensive knowledge. In the former case you can’t teach someone who knows everything (even if it’s wrong), and in the latter case one word responses usually work best.
In short, humility ought to go hand in hand with knowledge. I thought I was quite a marksman till my first PRS match. Thank God I approached it hat in hand. Arrogant fucks are fine, but you had better get your facts straight first and be able to dance. I didn’t leave because I wanted to deprive them of my vast knowledge and intellect. I left because, “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” Mark Twain
I made a simple comment about minimizing the significances of the BR world is all. I also said I see the same shit but I seem to be more tolerant of it. I take 99% of gun forum shit with a grain of salt, I'm still going to do it my way.
I shoot 6X47l BTW. 
I think my comp gun in their game would do better than their comp gun in ours.
More appropriately, leave the guns and the game and switch trigger pullers...!
I think my comp gun in their game would do better than their comp gun in ours.
More appropriately, leave the guns and the game and switch trigger pullers...!
Does NOTHING for me, and you can brag about your groups all you want. Doesn’t means you can shoot AT ALL.
I’ve taught hundreds of students in the narrow areas where I actually am an expert. I’ve taken remedial classes in areas where I have extensive knowledge. In the former case you can’t teach someone who knows everything (even if it’s wrong), and in the latter case one word responses usually work best.
In short, humility ought to go hand in hand with knowledge. I thought I was quite a marksman till my first PRS match. Thank God I approached it hat in hand. Arrogant fucks are fine, but you had better get your facts straight first and be able to dance. I didn’t leave because I wanted to deprive them of my vast knowledge and intellect. I left because, “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” Mark Twain
Holy Christ!
Is that what BR looks like the hose days?
Lol, I just bought my 4th Impact action yesterday morning, got a Bart 6mm tube on the way, I am going to revisit the 6x47 myself, for I had kept the dies which I rarely do, I load for 4 dashers and one 7 saum. End of June is the ETA for a Borden super short 6mm in 6BRA, which I am pumped about trying.I shoot 6X47l BTW.
I think my comp gun in their game would do better than their comp gun in ours.
More appropriately, leave the guns and the game and switch trigger pullers...!
Today I do shoot at distance with a dasher and a 110 sierra that I could not with a 6 comp match, 6slr, 6 creed, or 6x47 shooting hybrids. Nothing has changed on my end, loading skills, shooting skills, etc... Just doing more with less< again, I don't brag, lol
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You no doubt came by the reactor core at the Roswell Crash Site!, when the core fails you could always harvest Bovine produced methane gasses thus PISSING OFF AOC!
Smart farmers have been harvesting porcine methane to generate energy for at least a couple generations now.
I was less than satisfied with my first results with my SBA neck turned fire-formed .243 brass. When I reloaded the first hundred I could feel that bullet seating pressure was not consistent. I know the answer will be to buy an AMP but I'm genetically predisposed to experiment with the SBA method to try and find a solution before declaring AMP the hands down winner. My wife calls me stubborn!
D
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Hmmn I've used socket and torch for about 30 years now. I would certainly but an amp or similar machine but honestly after screwing up a couple of cases in the 80s it's pretty damn idiot proof to socket and torch and doesn't cost $1k and as far as how many firings I have some 260 and 6br brass I threw away just because I had it what seemed like decades.
Meh! You and I are anachronisms that will fade away with our useful and affordable methods. Its true that induction annealing is a more consistent and accurate method, but as I mentioned before, my use of torch and socket hasn’t failed me so far and my chrono tells me that it does well enough to give me low SD.
There are applications for the AMP that are very valid. These include very high volume shooters, ELR/ultra LR competitors and Bullseye/bench-rest competitors.
Don’t know nuttin’ ‘bout no SBA, lessin you mean the Small Business Association.
Hard seating is caused by the oxide on the neck surface. Get some graphite neck lube and the bullets will seat nice and smooth.
Well shit....I SBA and shoot a 308....I should have paid attention in skool. Constantly making shitty decisions.
That rail gun pictured several posts above would be a great test rig to confirm on deny the pros and cons
of both forms of annealing . What I’m getting from the US Army tests and the AMP guys tests, is that if you
get enough heat into the case with SBA to soften the neck , you are overheating the rest of the case .
For the SBA fans I have a couple of questions.
1. How many times can you SBA before primer pockets get loose ?
2. What calibers are you “annealing” ?
3. Can SBA bring old hard cases back from the dead to the point where ES is greatly reduced ?
Same as everyone here, my results are just a sample of one but I’ll go ahead anyhow. What I’ve found during
wearing out a dozen 6.5 x 47 barrels, is that group size got bigger after about 3 firings of unturned Lapua
brass. For the 4th and subsequent firings, I needed to reduce the size of the neck bushing in a Forster
bushing bump neck die, to get adequate neck tension back. ES started to climb with every subsequent
firing, confirmed with an Oehler 35 and LabRadar. I realised that to stay at the sharp end of the field I
needed to buy new brass frequently to win comps.
This was costing me a shitload in buying new brass, shooting over 150 rounds in competition every two
weeks adds up to a lot of brass quickly. Here in Aus, x 47 brass is about $240 per hundred from my local
retailer. I gave some brass to a friend with an SBA unit, the results were better slightly better than non SBA
brass, but ES was still not as good as fresh brass.
Unsatisfied with this, I bought an AMP annealer. ES is now always less than 10, even on cases that have
been fired over 25 times ! Primer pockets are still tight too : I’m very curious to hear if SBA users are getting
this kind of life from their cases, particularly Lapua x47 cases so it’s apples to apples ?
In my circumstance, the cost of the AMP annealer easily pays for itself over a year or so, dramatically
reducing my expenditure on new brass. Interestingly, the guy who I got to SBA some brass for me has
never beaten me in competiton, yet is still derisive of my expenditure on an AMP unit....
of both forms of annealing . What I’m getting from the US Army tests and the AMP guys tests, is that if you
get enough heat into the case with SBA to soften the neck , you are overheating the rest of the case .
For the SBA fans I have a couple of questions.
1. How many times can you SBA before primer pockets get loose ?
2. What calibers are you “annealing” ?
3. Can SBA bring old hard cases back from the dead to the point where ES is greatly reduced ?
Same as everyone here, my results are just a sample of one but I’ll go ahead anyhow. What I’ve found during
wearing out a dozen 6.5 x 47 barrels, is that group size got bigger after about 3 firings of unturned Lapua
brass. For the 4th and subsequent firings, I needed to reduce the size of the neck bushing in a Forster
bushing bump neck die, to get adequate neck tension back. ES started to climb with every subsequent
firing, confirmed with an Oehler 35 and LabRadar. I realised that to stay at the sharp end of the field I
needed to buy new brass frequently to win comps.
This was costing me a shitload in buying new brass, shooting over 150 rounds in competition every two
weeks adds up to a lot of brass quickly. Here in Aus, x 47 brass is about $240 per hundred from my local
retailer. I gave some brass to a friend with an SBA unit, the results were better slightly better than non SBA
brass, but ES was still not as good as fresh brass.
Unsatisfied with this, I bought an AMP annealer. ES is now always less than 10, even on cases that have
been fired over 25 times ! Primer pockets are still tight too : I’m very curious to hear if SBA users are getting
this kind of life from their cases, particularly Lapua x47 cases so it’s apples to apples ?
In my circumstance, the cost of the AMP annealer easily pays for itself over a year or so, dramatically
reducing my expenditure on new brass. Interestingly, the guy who I got to SBA some brass for me has
never beaten me in competiton, yet is still derisive of my expenditure on an AMP unit....
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I don’t think you beating him has anything to do with annealing. Do you?
Actually yes . Regarding your comments about “ superbenchrest dickheads “ , PRS and BR are closer
than you think . Why is everyone in PRS going to 6BR case variants ? Lots of talk about shooting “ free
recoil “ too , off shooting bags that are getting more and more specific to,purpose just like BR.
McMillan stocks was started by Gale McMillan who held a world BR record for 30ish years. Everything I
learnt in reloading which I use in comps and ELR came from BR, with the one exception of barrel cleaning
routines . YMMV .
It’s a very nice facility, but it IS a bench rest club. There are too many geniuses there who know everything there is to know. There are also a lot of very good guys, but they don’t seem to be in charge. It’s a square range for punching paper. They’d clutch their pearls if they saw you shooting off a barricade. You’d probably get kicked out for all sorts of safety violations.
@Clearlight, I put disclaimers in my rant that appearently you didn’t read, because you keep harping on those very things. Sorry if you’re offended, but it’s more likely your bullets “go to sleep” than your annealing methods are winning you any matches UNLESS it’s a BR match.
My library has a ton of BR books and I’ve read them all (especially Ziediker and Boyer).
Our crotchety old guys are funny, mostly military, and don’t take themselves so seriously. Over there they’re mostly just ignorant dickheads regurgitating. Sorry, but that’s my assessment.
@Clearlight, I put disclaimers in my rant that appearently you didn’t read, because you keep harping on those very things. Sorry if you’re offended, but it’s more likely your bullets “go to sleep” than your annealing methods are winning you any matches UNLESS it’s a BR match.
My library has a ton of BR books and I’ve read them all (especially Ziediker and Boyer).
Our crotchety old guys are funny, mostly military, and don’t take themselves so seriously. Over there they’re mostly just ignorant dickheads regurgitating. Sorry, but that’s my assessment.
I used the NECO dry graphite both before and after opening the neck with the Sinclair expander mandrel. I'm going to try to leave some sacrificial rounds in the salt a little longer but keep the depth just below the case-shoulder junction.
I would never knock anyone for buying an amp... And heat is not heat when it comes to annealing... Consistent heat though.... A little practice and annealing can be done just as effective imo but maybe not as convenient.
Tiny minds are easily insulted you have to remember that when posting. Facts don't matter. Myth Busters could spend months here.
How did I know that Lynn Jr would turn this into a shitshow.
I'm also one of those with professional knowledge on the subject who is sitting back and enjoying the popcorn.
Sooooo many people without a clue but acting like they own this. LOL
I'm also one of those with professional knowledge on the subject who is sitting back and enjoying the popcorn.
Sooooo many people without a clue but acting like they own this. LOL
no offence taken cuz . Most ranges open to the public have an ‘ interesting ‘ array of personalities, with a lot of misinformation being regurgitated. Today’s session at my local range was no exception....
You’re right. I was thinking Wallack. Zeidiker is more general (and very useful).When did Zediker ever write a BR book?
Was there any more info addressing these variances that I missed? My eyes started to gloss over once Fudds, benchrest shooting, and Accurate Shooter came up.
Some good points here though. Although I'm more than willing to acknowledge the results by AMP, a little clarification would be nice.
Regarding this SBA annealing and it 'not working', has ANYONE incorporated any kind of agitation to their process?
And no, I don't mean you standing there and yelling at things. I'm talking about swirling around/moving around the liquid medium for a more (?) consistent heat transfer.
And no, I don't mean you standing there and yelling at things. I'm talking about swirling around/moving around the liquid medium for a more (?) consistent heat transfer.
Not that I’ve seen. I don’t think people are very concerned that they didn’t compare the results.
I wouldn't debate that an AMP machine works, and even that it works better than most options.
Someone else also mentioned if what they are measuring is actually important to us. That’s a good question too. What do we now about that value as it relates to the results that we’re looking for?
Tom Tom Tom you sound bitter after all your problems at Thunder Valley.
And with the FCSA or are those issues already posted here?
I can tell you all that annealing works - from my experience, after doing everything else right with my factory Savage .308Win, I wasn't able to achieve single digit SD's until I started annealing. However, that was using the torch and rotating case holder method. I've only tried the Salt Bath method once and didn't get the desired results but am not willing to abandon it until I've tried all my options of time, temperature and depth of immersion.
What did he do this time, mild posts in this thread? Damn though, I shoulda fired up a poll on his longevity.
I got pulled into this debate running another FB group[ about Annealing... [Frank don't ban me again please] I make and share info to help folks...not to make money. I have nothing against that either. AMP is doing a full court attack on salt bath annealing and many of us have challenged much of their article, their perceived salt bath method process and unbiased testing procedures.
General Fact: Brass can be annealed with Salt Bath Method....so if that is accepted by the leading source of all industry professionals in the world. "Engineering360 is the world's largest online destination for engineers, delivering the single source for critical engineering content, information, insight, tools and community for engineers and technical professionals across multiple industries and disciplines" ............see link below..
Then it really comes down to as many of us have said on their publications it is about the PROCESS and the TESTING of using Salt Bath for annealing rifle brass. Until they get a guy that done it for 10 years and seen it working in his shooting and use an independent testing lab and test for what is needed... real outcomes of lower SD/ES and longer lasting brass in a controlled repeatable testing environment I will believe they have an agenda to sell the AMP machines and not to the truth of what can be done/used to "properly" anneal brass for shooting. Don't get me wrong, Induction heating[radiation] works and they make a great machine that does it well, but not every shooter can afford to spend $1300 plus on an annealing solution.
.......................................................................................................https://www.globalspec.com/.../indus.../heat_treatment_salts
Edit or delete this
GLOBALSPEC.COM
Heat Treatment Salts Selection Guide | Engineering360
https://www.globalspec.com/learnmor...s/industrial_oils_fluids/heat_treatment_salts
General Fact: Brass can be annealed with Salt Bath Method....so if that is accepted by the leading source of all industry professionals in the world. "Engineering360 is the world's largest online destination for engineers, delivering the single source for critical engineering content, information, insight, tools and community for engineers and technical professionals across multiple industries and disciplines" ............see link below..
Then it really comes down to as many of us have said on their publications it is about the PROCESS and the TESTING of using Salt Bath for annealing rifle brass. Until they get a guy that done it for 10 years and seen it working in his shooting and use an independent testing lab and test for what is needed... real outcomes of lower SD/ES and longer lasting brass in a controlled repeatable testing environment I will believe they have an agenda to sell the AMP machines and not to the truth of what can be done/used to "properly" anneal brass for shooting. Don't get me wrong, Induction heating[radiation] works and they make a great machine that does it well, but not every shooter can afford to spend $1300 plus on an annealing solution.
.......................................................................................................https://www.globalspec.com/.../indus.../heat_treatment_salts
Edit or delete this
GLOBALSPEC.COM
Heat Treatment Salts Selection Guide | Engineering360
https://www.globalspec.com/learnmor...s/industrial_oils_fluids/heat_treatment_salts
I’m curious why all these supposed engineers can’t replicate the test themselves and refute amps findings. Surely someone out there has the capabilities.
maybe you should ask... or be curious to ask.......... WHY is the super best annealing product in the world so SCARED of a simple REDNECK process of salt bath annealing..... think on it..
I think it is best to take most of the shit you read for what you paid for it. I've been here for 8+ yrs and can count on one hand the times I followed someone's lead.
It's a gun forum, we share thoughts and ideas, some stick, some don't. What did we have in this thread, 4 claiming to be experts, laugh and leave. If it works for you, and your results are measurable, stay the coarse.
