Scientific reasons for waiting to get the COVID vaccine

[robozebra]

Vaccinations have been happening now for some 7 months or so.

When polio, small pox, even insulin therapies were given there were immediate and irrefutable results.

In the case of insulin Lazarus was literally raised. A roomful of kids in diabetic coma being watched to their deaths became instantly animated.

The risks were real in these instances....death, life in a lung, death or scarring. The outcomes of being afflicted were significantly worse and it took the perfectly healthy.

These were real threats we met without panic.

CV 19 vaccinated people are still getting Covid.

Though a real disease this shit has been so politicized and overblown.

I think everyone is in agreement that in the general population the death rate is less than 1% yet we cage match over arguing tenths to either promote or deny its lethality. Media likes to report the percentages just of "at risk" groups to promote the beliefs of lethality.

Facts are I face a "less than 1%" lethality every time I turn the ignition key in my car. Significantly higher when I rode my motorcycle. Shit as a reloader each trigger pull is a lottery. If you shoot a Serbu you should be uninsurable.

Yet with this "minimal risk" we have destroyed voting integrity, destroyed small business and moved to change the basic values of our Constitutional Republic.

Perhaps my biggest hang up is I have some unelected beareaucrat telling me to "get over" my Liberty concerns.

Shame on anyone in the med field not speaking out for "reasonable and sane" conversation regards this.

Granted the powers that be would probably destroy their voices but allowing those other voices to spew their shit with conflicting verbal and visual messages is causing death.

A political leader tells the People they can't have a July 4 family gathering because it's too dangerous yet shows up at a BLM rally with no one wearing masks.

A governor goes to a large dinner party maskless while everyone else is required to get Uber to deliver takeout as they are mandated shut ins.

A governor won't let you buy gardening seeds while meanwhile she flies off for party girls weekend away.

Citizens are restricted in movement and mandated in action yet thousands come over the border, not tested, free to move and actually provided money from the restricted to enjoy freedoms they are denied.

You couldn't buy a turkey over ten pounds in my AO last November because anything bigger meant gatherings bigger than the permitted size.

Sorry med people We see the truth.

Tyrants want to Tyrant and Pharma wants to rape the People.

It's a perfect alliance of evil and you are playing their useful idiot role.

Nurses please post more pictures of your tired eyes and the sores on your face from mask wearing......I don't give a fuck.

I agree with you in most of what you are saying. I don’t think anyone should be forced to take the vaccine. I think it is a choice. I personally don’t care if you or anyone else is vaccinated. The mortality is very low, but it isn’t zero. If you assume a mortality of 0.3% (3/1000) and you let the virus spread with abandonment (no masks, immunizations, social distancing…), that would mean roughly 1 million Americans would die from the virus every time someone contracted it. The issues with COVID is how easily it spreads and how little long-term immunity we see after infection. COVID is several times more communicable than influenza. The delta variant appears to be even more communicable and there’s an epsilon variant that might be even worse. Less than 5% of infected individuals have any immunity past 3 months. Almost none develop long-term immunity. So, conceivably if we didn’t have any restrictions or vaccinations, everyone could contract the virus at least twice annually and some more than 3 times. Even if you left the mortality at 0.3% (there is a suggestion that the mortality is higher with subsequent infections), that means at least 2 million dead every year in America alone. Now, you could say that most of the mortality is concentrated in the elderly, so it’s mostly just grandma/grandpa that dies off and maybe the mortality rate would drop in the younger population, but that isn’t the full story. Had a patient 2 weeks ago that lost her grandson (30 yo without co-morbid conditions) the prior week to COVID. Started having fever and GI complaints on Thursday and was dead on Saturday. I was healthy (training for a century ride) when I got COVID and ended up in hospital. So, it isn’t just grandma/grandpa that is being killed off.

As for the hypocrisy and politicization of the virus, I couldn’t agree more.

On the topic of insulin, it was a MUCH longer discovery time. Initially described in 1886 by Langerhans and called pancreatin. Banting and Best started research in 1921 and though they made a HUGE mistake in their study, they discovered the role of insulin that summer. Banting and Macleod were awarded the Noble prize a few years later. Fascinating story. Especially if you understand the mistake they made and the politics of research.

Polio and smallpox had much longer vaccine development. Yes, those diseases have higher mortality than COVID, but that mortality also limits its spread.

 

[robozebra]

Did you get tested for the antibodies before getting the shot?

Seems pretty stoopid for someone in the medical field with your background.

You obviously haven’t looked into COVID immunity... You might want to read a bit of stuff before you call out someone for being “stoopid.” I’m assuming you meant the homonym/heterograph in your post. I did my research before I took an immunization. Very few (<5%) have COVID antibodies at 90 days. I waited past the 90 days and didn’t have antibodies.

 

[MarkCO]

What the hell do people mean when they say it is not a vaccine?

"Vaccine" has a definition accepted within the scientific and medical fields. The experimental drug for CV does not, by any measure, meet the definition. Liberals love to change the meaning of words to fit their agenda. But when you attempt to alter accepted definitions based on values clarification and agenda, you have NO scientific merit. Does Vitamin C and D boost immunity? Yes! Do you, or anyone then, call Vitamin C and D a "Vaccine"? No. Why? Because it does not meet the definition of a vaccine and it would be silly. Same applies to the experimental drug the MSM and liberal agenda is attempting to force everyone to take.

 

[theLBC]

"Vaccine" has a definition accepted within the scientific and medical fields. The experimental drug for CV does not, by any measure, meet the definition. Liberals love to change the meaning of words to fit their agenda. But when you attempt to alter accepted definitions based on values clarification and agenda, you have NO scientific merit. Does Vitamin C and D boost immunity? Yes! Do you, or anyone then, call Vitamin C and D a "Vaccine"? No. Why? Because it does not meet the definition of a vaccine and it would be silly. Same applies to the experimental drug the MSM and liberal agenda is attempting to force everyone to take.

the chode thinks the definition promoted my leftwing media and "experts" means more than logic and history.

but in essence, you are correct anyway.
vaccines are typically attenuated (weakened) or dead viruses that prompt your body into creating antigens or antibodies that will kill* that virus.
the mRNA covid "vaccines" don't prompt your body to create antigens or antibodies, it tells your body to create part of the actual virus.

*or render them inert, since a virus is not technically alive, imo.

 

[Choid]

the chode thinks the definition promoted my leftwing media and "experts" means more than logic and history.

but in essence, you are correct anyway.
vaccines are typically attenuated (weakened) or dead viruses that prompt your body into creating antigens or antibodies that will kill* that virus.
the mRNA covid "vaccines" don't prompt your body to create antigens or antibodies, it tells your body to create part of the actual virus.

*or render them inert, since a virus is not technically alive, imo.

I think that the definitive issue with a vaccine is that it gets your body to create antibodies or other defense mechanisms against a disease. How that is done will, hopefully, continue to expand. That is distinct from other prophylactics because of the production of antibodies, which is why nobody calls vitamin C or D a vaccine. There are several other vaccine technologies on the horizon as well. Hopefully they will all be very effective.

 

[theLBC]

I think that the definitive issue with a vaccine is that it gets your body to create antibodies or other defense mechanisms against a disease. How that is done will, hopefully, continue to expand. That is distinct from other prophylactics because of the production of antibodies, which is why nobody calls vitamin C or D a vaccine. There are several other vaccine technologies on the horizon as well. Hopefully they will all be very effective.

if you have a healthy immune system that is properly creating mRNA naturally to code for protective antigens, you are protected.
however, if your immune system is not working properly, all you are getting with mRNA vaccines is the spikes.
with traditional vaccines, all you are getting is dead viruses.

 

[Choid]

if you have a healthy immune system that is properly creating mRNA naturally to code for protective antigens, you are protected.
however, if your immune system is not working properly, all you are getting with mRNA vaccines is the spikes.
with traditional vaccines, all you are getting is dead viruses.

I honestly don't know enough about this to dispute or agree with your statement. Nonetheless, it doesn't seem like the issue between the two is whether they are both vaccines, but just that they are different, and perhaps whether one is a better way of doing things than the other.

 

[FS1]

You obviously haven’t looked into COVID immunity... You might want to read a bit of stuff before you call out someone for being “stoopid.” I’m assuming you meant the homonym/heterograph in your post. I did my research before I took an immunization. Very few (<5%) have COVID antibodies at 90 days. I waited past the 90 days and didn’t have antibodies.

Immunological memory - Immunobiology - NCBI Bookshelf

The antigen do not need be present… because the body’s memory of them is.

 

[rtB]

If you haven't noticed, there are certain folks who seem to "ride" specific threads. They don't post in other threads, but try to own a thread by posting almost every other post. Strange.

 

[jbrand11]

You obviously haven’t looked into COVID immunity... You might want to read a bit of stuff before you call out someone for being “stoopid.” I’m assuming you meant the homonym/heterograph in your post. I did my research before I took an immunization. Very few (<5%) have COVID antibodies at 90 days. I waited past the 90 days and didn’t have antibodies.

So how does your immune system’s memory mechanism figure into this? Especially with primary, secondary and tertiary exposure.
Not trying to be argumentative but according to NIH articles the absence of antibodies doesn’t mean you’re not able to produce a faster and effective immune response. Just trying to learn more and you appear to have some level of experience above the layperson.

Would like to link some of the articles but not smart enough to figure it out.

 

[robozebra]

the chode thinks the definition promoted my leftwing media and "experts" means more than logic and history.

but in essence, you are correct anyway.
vaccines are typically attenuated (weakened) or dead viruses that prompt your body into creating antigens or antibodies that will kill* that virus.
the mRNA covid "vaccines" don't prompt your body to create antigens or antibodies, it tells your body to create part of the actual virus.

*or render them inert, since a virus is not technically alive, imo.

Sorry, but no definition of vaccine that I’ve found requires the agent to be attenuated.

The immunizations for COVID are very accepted as immunizations/vaccines in the medical community. Any suggestion otherwise is simply rhetoric…

 

[E. Bryant]

There are multiple definitions to the term "vaccine", which is typical of most words. One generally-accepted definition is as follows:

"a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.”

By this definition, both the mRNA and AAV Covid vaccines are, um, vaccines.

There are some excellent arguments against receiving the vaccine, or criticizing its development and deployment, or worrying about the political and sociological baggage that we're hanging on this issue. But arguing over lingual semantics strikes me as ineffective and counterproductive.

 

[MarkCO]

What medical source did you lift that definition from E. Bryant? Just curious.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

You took an immunization shot but you are not immune?
That doesn't make sense.

You obviously haven’t looked into COVID immunity... You might want to read a bit of stuff before you call out someone for being “stoopid.” I’m assuming you meant the homonym/heterograph in your post. I did my research before I took an immunization. Very few (<5%) have COVID antibodies at 90 days. I waited past the 90 days and didn’t have antibodies.

I know several people that had the covid last year and they still tested positive for the antibodies recently.

Either way. Good luck

 

[theLBC]

There are multiple definitions to the term "vaccine", which is typical of most words. One generally-accepted definition is as follows:

"a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.”

By this definition, both the mRNA and AAV Covid vaccines are, um, vaccines.

There are some excellent arguments against receiving the vaccine, or criticizing its development and deployment, or worrying about the political and sociological baggage that we're hanging on this issue. But arguing over lingual semantics strikes me as ineffective and counterproductive.

as i mentioned above, they have also updated the "definitions" recently.
but technically, this mRNA doesn't exactly "stimulate production of antibodies", but rather causes the production of spike proteins that they "hope" will cause the production of antibodies that will protect from covid-19 or other "spiked viruses". if people with compromised immune systems that do not properly create antibodies, what does the mRNA besides create spike proteins?
also, if somebody already has antibodies, what do the spikes do besides use them up, leaving the victim more susceptible to the virus for at least a short span of time (until the body has time to create more antigens)?

 

[RedTimber]

At this point if you are avoiding the vaccine and you die from COVID, that's on you. Hopefully you don't take any kids under 12 with you.

The data says it's safe and that it is very effective. And now that we have large clusters of vaccinated and unvaccinated populations to compare, we can extrapolate those safety and efficacy predictions into real world data.

Basically, the vaccine test programs were rigorous load development with rounds tested at distance and met statistical expectations. Now large swaths of the community are testing those loads at distance and guess what? They're hitting targets. But a large chunk of the population is consumed by partisan ideology and unwilling to even try these loads, thinking they honestly know better than the professionals.

The data also says that 99% of people survive without the vaccine.

 

[Lostin89]

Ever notice the similarities between a steering wheel and a computer keyboard?

Sitting behind either one for any period of time seems to grant the operator with extreme bravery and intelligence.

He knows everyone, knows everything, has been everywhere and done everything. A real Renaissance man. Or is he just a real-nonsense man?

I would think he would be hanging out on the MENSA site with his true peers? But instead he just hangs with us mere mortal conspiracy nuts.

While you both have points, singling this dude out anymore than he already does himself doesn't make sense. Leave his internet ego alone, peeps gotta have something to hold onto. His response in here and response in PortaJohn around the same time about "hurting peoples feelings" was 100% about eliciting a response, and you both jumped right in.

On the topic of the vaccine....I am genuinely happy to get other peoples opinions on the matter, but we all need to remember that not a single one of us is doing anything other than sharing just that, opinions (albeit some of them have links/evidence to back them up). Let's keep it moving forward, this topic is just as deep as any other.

 

[Doc68]

I worked around covid positive patients all last year. Never once contracted it. My immune system is probably a lot better than others because I'm always working around sick people.

Covid is no worse than the flu if you break the numbers down.

The CDC recently admitted that only 6% of the 600k actually died from covid itself, that's 36k people. All others had comorbidities. that should tell you something in itself.

Hospitals got extra money from .gov to inflate numbers. People who would have died from COPD, heart disease, diabetes, seasonal flu, strokes or anything else were lumped into covid, for hospital who couldn't do regular surgeries used covid as a way to make up that money.

PCR tests were run up to 40 times to detect the virus and at that point the amount wouldn't be spreadable, but were reported as covid positive tests.

Wonder why .

This whole thing is a sham and if you believe different, then you are brainwashed and should get off the internet.

Doc

 

[Choid]

I worked around covid positive patients all last year. Never once contracted it. My immune system is probably a lot better than others because I'm always working around sick people.

Covid is no worse than the flu if you break the numbers down.

The CDC recently admitted that only 6% of the 600k actually died from covid itself, that's 36k people. All others had comorbidities. that should tell you something in itself.

Hospitals got extra money from .gov to inflate numbers. People who would have died from COPD, heart disease, diabetes, seasonal flu, strokes or anything else were lumped into covid, for hospital who couldn't do regular surgeries used covid as a way to make up that money.

PCR tests were run up to 40 times to detect the virus and at that point the amount wouldn't be spreadable, but were reported as covid positive tests.

Wonder why .

This whole thing is a sham and if you believe different, then you are brainwashed and should get off the internet.

Doc

If you absolutely do not understand what a comorbidity is, then this totally makes sense and only 36000 died of covid. But in reality, having a comorbidity does not mean that you are about to die. In fact, over half of the people in the US have at least one comorbidity, and a vast number have multiple. So what you should be talking about is life years lost to covid, and while a fat fuck thirty year old would count as a multiple comorbidity covid death, and therefore, by your count, not a covid death at all, you are talking about a situation where 30-40 life years are lost because of covid. So really, the numbers you propose are horseshit, and given that you should allegedly know something about medicine, this should be quite embarrassing for you. But even more than that, there are many diseases that don't actually kill people, but lead to death. AIDS is a great example. But nobody would be dumb enough to say, "oh, no gay people died of AIDS in the 1980s, but man, a lot of young people died of Kaposi's Sarcoma, so why are we spending money on AIDS research."

None of that takes away from some of the greatest political offenses of the last year, but it is basically bullshit to suggest that only 36000 people died from covid.

Also, none of these things have anything to do with the vaccines, they are only a recounting of the last year plus.

 

[theLBC]

avg age of "covid" deaths is well above the life expectancy.

 

[robozebra]

So how does your immune system’s memory mechanism figure into this? Especially with primary, secondary and tertiary exposure.
Not trying to be argumentative but according to NIH articles the absence of antibodies doesn’t mean you’re not able to produce a faster and effective immune response. Just trying to learn more and you appear to have some level of experience above the layperson.

Would like to link some of the articles but not smart enough to figure it out.

Ok, so I’m going to try to explain this without getting too deep into the weeds. Immunity is accomplished through T cells and B cells. It appears that antibody levels drop very rapidly following COVID-19 infection. The long-term immunity is conferred through memory cells and plasma cells in the bone marrow. In SARS infections in the past, 10-20% of infected individuals continued to generate low level antibodies. In COVID-19, it appears that a lower percentage have long-term antibodies. Plasma cell immunity also appears to be rare in significant levels, but it’s still way too early to know. The one thing that has been shown is that immunization results in about 50x the level of plasma cells than see in non-immunized individuals.

Anecdotally, a HUGE portion of COVID infections seen in my area are in unvaccinated people.

 

[robozebra]

You took an immunization shot but you are not immune?
That doesn't make sense.

I know several people that had the covid last year and they still tested positive for the antibodies recently.

Either way. Good luck

That’s not what I said. I didn’t have long-term immunity following being infected. I guess time will tell on immunity following vaccination.

 

[Choid]

avg age of "covid" deaths is well above the life expectancy.

Not for many of the people who died, though. The point remains. People use the term "comorbidity" incorrectly as though it means that somebody is about to die. It just means another disease, or chronic condition, that is present with covid. So if somebody has brain cancer and dies with covid, then yeah, you are talking about a non covid death. But if somebody is a fat fuck and dies with covid, it is more than likely a covid death, but gets counted as a comorbidity. I am not saying that Covid deaths weren't overcounted. I am saying that his analysis is dishonest as hell.

 

[theLBC]

Not for many of the people who died, though. The point remains. People use the term "comorbidity" incorrectly as though it means that somebody is about to die. It just means another disease, or chronic condition, that is present with covid. So if somebody has brain cancer and dies with covid, then yeah, you are talking about a non covid death. But if somebody is a fat fuck and dies with covid, it is more than likely a covid death, but gets counted as a comorbidity. I am not saying that Covid deaths weren't overcounted. I am saying that his analysis is dishonest as hell.

of course not, but i think the point is that people that were dying of leukemia or gunshot wounds should not have been listed on daily death billboards to scare the crap out of the sheep.

 

[Choid]

of course not, but i think the point is that people that were dying of leukemia or gunshot wounds should not have been listed on daily death billboards to scare the crap out of the sheep.

On that we agree.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

ITS
A FUCKING
CLINICAL TRIAL
AND
YOU
ARE
THE
GUINEA PIG!

FUCK ME I NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD BE THIS FUCKING EASY!!

 

[Baron23]

oh and this

Prepare for mandatory COVID vaccines in September, Army tells commands

The directive came from an execute order sent to the force by Department of the Army Headquarters.

www.armytimes.com

Wow....I was in, what was then known as, Tactical Air Command and of course we had a world wide deployment rassignment. As far as I can tell, USAF didn't give a flying fuck what we thought about the plethora (great word, yeah? haha) of vaccinations that we HAD to have. Bubonic plague, yellow fever, small pox (yeah, really) and everything else under the sun. And wasn't it grand showing up to process with CBPO in the mobility line without your shot record....cause you got them all again on the spot...in one go. Then go to work for 24 hours straight. haha

I'm not sure what kind of military ya all served in, but I don't remember EVER being give a choice about this kind of stuff. So, no...this doesn't outrage me and no, I don't think this is some new transgression on our liberties...most of which you give up when you join (or joined in the past at least) a branch of our military.

Also, in reading this thread I'm impressed with one salient fact......or at least what appears to be a fact to me....for the most part, nobody is listening to anything anybody has to say that is in any way contrary to their own currently held views. We are all just talking past each other, tossing personal insults about because this is the Bear Pit after all, and there really is zero communication going on. Zero

All we are hearing is what we already agree with and dismiss out of hand anything else. They call this confirmation bias now.....we used to just call it being all around close minded and pig headed.

Carry on. haha

 

[Snipe260]

Choid and stefan73 walking down the beach!

 

[Choid]

Poor stefan. What the hell did he do?

 

[Lostin89]

Wow....I was in, what was then known as, Tactical Air Command and of course we had a world wide deployment rassignment. As far as I can tell, USAF didn't give a flying fuck what we thought about the plethora (great word, yeah? haha) of vaccinations that we HAD to have. Bubonic plague, yellow fever, small pox (yeah, really) and everything else under the sun. And wasn't it grand showing up to process with CBPO in the mobility line without your shot record....cause you got them all again on the spot...in one go. Then go to work for 24 hours straight. haha

I'm not sure what kind of military ya all served in, but I don't remember EVER being give a choice about this kind of stuff. So, no...this doesn't outrage me and no, I don't think this is some new transgression on our liberties...most of which you give up when you join (or joined in the past at least) a branch of our military.

Also, in reading this thread I'm impressed with one salient fact......or at least what appears to be a fact to me....for the most part, nobody is listening to anything anybody has to say that is in any way contrary to their own currently held views. We are all just talking past each other, tossing personal insults about because this is the Bear Pit after all, and there really is zero communication going on. Zero

All we are hearing is what we already agree with and dismiss out of hand anything else. They call this confirmation bias now.....we used to just call it being all around close minded and pig headed.

Carry on. haha

No shit ya big dummy. I got all my shit/shots whether I wanted it or not, this will be no different for active duty.

Mandatory on civvies, totally different ball game.

Realistically, the reason no one listens to other view points is because neither argument gets presented with any room for personal choice. It's either this way, or that, and hopefully you don't kill kids or some shit. Anyone who doesn't listen is a dipshit and everyone but ne is right. Couple peeps have a pedestal they chill on, throw rocks, then retreat back to the ivory tower when insults start being thrown.

What ive learned from some of these jackoffs is that I'm very blessed to not need recognition on the interwebs like some of the peeps....I'd just go ahead and become a VA statistic if I get that sad.

Regardless, Mandatory vaccines in everyday life is asinine and an overstep. If they mandate this, I wanna see everyone's personal health info prior to being allowed into any public/private area because the s*** people carry with them is nastier than tha vids and we gotta protect even the most resilient. I also don't want anyone to drive, save one life after all or some shit.

Edit** oh and ban fast food, I'm tired of seeing the heart disease stats every year

 

[robozebra]

I worked around covid positive patients all last year. Never once contracted it. My immune system is probably a lot better than others because I'm always working around sick people.

Covid is no worse than the flu if you break the numbers down.

The CDC recently admitted that only 6% of the 600k actually died from covid itself, that's 36k people. All others had comorbidities. that should tell you something in itself.

Hospitals got extra money from .gov to inflate numbers. People who would have died from COPD, heart disease, diabetes, seasonal flu, strokes or anything else were lumped into covid, for hospital who couldn't do regular surgeries used covid as a way to make up that money.

PCR tests were run up to 40 times to detect the virus and at that point the amount wouldn't be spreadable, but were reported as covid positive tests.

Wonder why .

This whole thing is a sham and if you believe different, then you are brainwashed and should get off the internet.

Doc

So, you worked around COVID patients without PPE and you aren’t immunized or going to be immunized? Is that what you are going to suggest? If COVID is really a sham, then you shouldn’t use PPE or take a vaccine for something that isn’t going to hurt you. That would be insanity.

Or, did you work around COVID patients with a N95 mask or respirator and googles? Received you immunization early? If you did, you are misleading people and a hypocrite.

COVID death numbers are overstated, but plenty have still died from COVID. I don‘t believe for 1 sec that 94% of the deaths attributed to COVID were trumped up by the hospital. If you are a physician, you know that hospitals don‘t complete death summaries. You do. You list the cause of death. Having a co-morbid condition with COVID doesn’t mean you didn‘t die from COVID. Dismissing a death because the person was obese or had diabetes is grossly negligent. They were fat and had diabetes in 2019 and would’ve been the same way in 2022. I’ll agree that not everyone that was listed as a COVID death really died from COVID, but it’s not 94% of them. 22% (130k of 590k) of deaths occurred in people under 65 years old. That’s a minority and can be dismissed, unless you are in the 130k.

Deaths and complications attributed to COVID vaccination are also overstated. People have agendas. They manipulate data all of the time to further their agenda. J&J vaccinations were halted due to thrombosis that occurred in 6 individuals in 6.5M. Many took that data and ran with it, but failed to inform everyone that the same population has a thrombosis risk of at least 7 in 1M or roughly 6X higher without immunization. Or that the risk of the same thrombosis with COVID is over 2000X higher.

Now, to your last statement, if you actually took care of COVID patients as a provider, you’d know it isn’t a sham. People were hospitalized with it or sought care for it, otherwise they wouldn’t have there as your patient. Many have died from it. To act like the entire thing is made up because it hasn’t directly affected you is the ultimate in arrogance. Glad I don’t work around you and really glad you aren’t my physician.

+++++++++

I’ve been on SH for almost 15 years. I rarely post anything and usually just stay out of this entire section. My family is out of town for a few days and I wandered into this area. I decided to comment after seeing the misinformation posted on this topic. Too much “expert information” provided by someone‘s third cousin’s ex-wife’s brother-in-law who spoke to some Karen at work that took a couple “pre-nursing” classes and is now a medical professional. Or worse, they saw it on some social”-ist” media site.

Personally, I don’t really care if you have the vaccination or wear a mask. It’s your choice. If you get COVID and die or develop a cardiomyopathy, you knew the risks. Hopefully you don’t get COVID and pass it to someone who dies. My wife hasn’t been vaccinated, but she isn’t going around bad mouthing everyone who is.

I’ll make my way back to my normal routine on SH now. The COVIDiots can spread their “joy” and “expert opinions.”

 

[918v]

If you absolutely do not understand what a comorbidity is, then this totally makes sense and only 36000 died of covid. But in reality, having a comorbidity does not mean that you are about to die. In fact, over half of the people in the US have at least one comorbidity, and a vast number have multiple. So what you should be talking about is life years lost to covid, and while a fat fuck thirty year old would count as a multiple comorbidity covid death, and therefore, by your count, not a covid death at all, you are talking about a situation where 30-40 life years are lost because of covid. So really, the numbers you propose are horseshit, and given that you should allegedly know something about medicine, this should be quite embarrassing for you. But even more than that, there are many diseases that don't actually kill people, but lead to death. AIDS is a great example. But nobody would be dumb enough to say, "oh, no gay people died of AIDS in the 1980s, but man, a lot of young people died of Kaposi's Sarcoma, so why are we spending money on AIDS research."

None of that takes away from some of the greatest political offenses of the last year, but it is basically bullshit to suggest that only 36000 people died from covid.

Also, none of these things have anything to do with the vaccines, they are only a recounting of the last year plus.

These people would have died of the flu.

 

[Lostin89]

The ultimate irony in the Bear Pit is seeing someone talk about "expert" opinions being bologna and then attempt to present an "expert" opinion followed by...hopefully you don't kill someone.

But hey, personally....I don't care... can't even type this without laughing.

 

[EddieNFL]

The ultimate irony in the Bear Pit is seeing someone talk about "expert" opinions being bologna and then attempt to present an "expert" opinion followed by...hopefully you don't kill someone.

But hey, personally....I don't care... can't even type this without laughing.

But...my expert is smarter than the others.

 

[Lostin89]

But...my expert is smarter than the others.

I see your swartz is as big as mine

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm not sure I have ever heard a person who had symptomatic COVID express a cavalier attitude toward it afterward.

Of the dozens of my acquaintances that had it, almost all agree a trip to Walmart on EBT day is far more hazardous.
The one lady I know that nearly died from it happens to be a nurse and now stands to lose her job for refusing the vaccine. She won't take it because no one in the entire medical community that she belongs to can give her more in depth info on it than they got from CNN.

 

[BullGear]

I don't feel anything about anybody....again, I think people should do EXACTLY what they want. I did...I got the vaccine.

What you (the general "you") do doesn't matter to me at all. I don't know you, you are not family or personal friend, and I'm not planning to invite you into my home for dinner. Do as you (again, general "you") wish. People do things that I personally think are idiotic all of the time....not really my business.

But, I do have family members dead from COVID. I have a family member with permanent scarred lungs from COVID. Any a very good buddy of mine that I shot skeet with for decades...a Texan sadly stuck in NY state right now...always expressed the view that this "crisis" would suddenly disappear as soon as last Nov elections were over. Then he and his whole family got it, some where hospitalized (wife for 6 weeks) and his view now is very different.

I'm not sure I have ever heard a person who had symptomatic COVID express a cavalier attitude toward it afterward.

Cheers and best of luck

I had it and it wasn't much. I had all symptoms other than death and I can tell ya, I've had colds that kicked my butt worse than Covid.

 

[lash]

EXPERT:
Definition; X is an unknown quantity, a Spurt (spert) is a drop of liquid under pressure. So it would seem that and “expert” is nothing more than an unknown quantity under pressure.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Doc68]

So, you worked around COVID patients without PPE and you aren’t immunized or going to be immunized? Is that what you are going to suggest? If COVID is really a sham, then you shouldn’t use PPE or take a vaccine for something that isn’t going to hurt you. That would be insanity.

Or, did you work around COVID patients with a N95 mask or respirator and googles? Received you immunization early? If you did, you are misleading people and a hypocrite.

COVID death numbers are overstated, but plenty have still died from COVID. I don‘t believe for 1 sec that 94% of the deaths attributed to COVID were trumped up by the hospital. If you are a physician, you know that hospitals don‘t complete death summaries. You do. You list the cause of death. Having a co-morbid condition with COVID doesn’t mean you didn‘t die from COVID. Dismissing a death because the person was obese or had diabetes is grossly negligent. They were fat and had diabetes in 2019 and would’ve been the same way in 2022. I’ll agree that not everyone that was listed as a COVID death really died from COVID, but it’s not 94% of them. 22% (130k of 590k) of deaths occurred in people under 65 years old. That’s a minority and can be dismissed, unless you are in the 130k.

Deaths and complications attributed to COVID vaccination are also overstated. People have agendas. They manipulate data all of the time to further their agenda. J&J vaccinations were halted due to thrombosis that occurred in 6 individuals in 6.5M. Many took that data and ran with it, but failed to inform everyone that the same population has a thrombosis risk of at least 7 in 1M or roughly 6X higher without immunization. Or that the risk of the same thrombosis with COVID is over 2000X higher.

Now, to your last statement, if you actually took care of COVID patients as a provider, you’d know it isn’t a sham. People were hospitalized with it or sought care for it, otherwise they wouldn’t have there as your patient. Many have died from it. To act like the entire thing is made up because it hasn’t directly affected you is the ultimate in arrogance. Glad I don’t work around you and really glad you aren’t my physician.

+++++++++

I’ve been on SH for almost 15 years. I rarely post anything and usually just stay out of this entire section. My family is out of town for a few days and I wandered into this area. I decided to comment after seeing the misinformation posted on this topic. Too much “expert information” provided by someone‘s third cousin’s ex-wife’s brother-in-law who spoke to some Karen at work that took a couple “pre-nursing” classes and is now a medical professional. Or worse, they saw it on some social”-ist” media site.

Personally, I don’t really care if you have the vaccination or wear a mask. It’s your choice. If you get COVID and die or develop a cardiomyopathy, you knew the risks. Hopefully you don’t get COVID and pass it to someone who dies. My wife hasn’t been vaccinated, but she isn’t going around bad mouthing everyone who is.

I’ll make my way back to my normal routine on SH now. The COVIDiots can spread their “joy” and “expert opinions.”

I worked in the covid testing center at Evan's Army community hospital. No one amd I repeat no one wore N95 masks ever. We had to wear the BS pieces of cloth over our face as we all know how effective they are. I always wore mine below my nose and not a word was ever said to me once.

As far as getting the vaccine, no I havent gotten it amd never will. I just medically retired on 2 JUL 2021 from the army.

I didnt say 94% of the remaining deaths were lying hospitals, I said they had comorbidities and that's why they died, that's per the CDC.

If you dont think that hospitals would exaggerate positive covid tests while they couldnt do regular operations, then you are a fool sir.

Regular flu season kills between 40-60k people, you should know this. Weird how last year there was reported maybe 4k flu deaths.....

How many false positives were treated in hospitals...how many people died from other diseases and already present medical issues when they were locked down in their houses and told not to go in to seek treatment.

Never said it wasnt real, all I said was that numbers were inflated beyond comprehension. The actual virus only killed 36k people. Think about that. So if those other people weren't already sick, how many deaths do you think we would have actually had.

Also do you think cycling a sample 40 times in a pcr test is reliable or even a true positive test...

In the army, they allow us senior medics to treat patients on our own. The only time I have needed to consult a PA or NP was to dispense narcotics. When we are down range we dont need any permissions to really do anything.

I also have my BSN and know a few things about treating patients.

Shouldnt judge a book by the cover.

Doc

PS: I had surgery mid last year amd was made to have a covid test done two days before the surgery, results didnt come in until 3 days after surgery, guess what, my surgery wasnt delayed...but this disease is so deadly....

 

[rtB]

Just in case you were wondering what's really going on...

With Feds Help, Moderna Forecasts Record Revenue of $19.2B

The federal government, by way of the National Institute of Health (NIH), and more specifically through the National Inst...

uncoverdc.com

 

[Doc68]

 

[Doc68]

That’s not what I said. I didn’t have long-term immunity following being infected. I guess time will tell on immunity following vaccination.

If this is a vaccine, then why are vaccinated people getting covid still. If it's not a vaccine then why do we need to get it?

So what kind of a doctor are you.

Doc

 

[MtnGhost]

Well there's two primary flavors being distributed, under Emergency Use Authorization (EUA). The first are mRNA-based and the second is DNA-based (adenoviral DNA). Both of these experimental "platforms" are unlike anything that has been used in vaccines before this pandemic. They both create (potentially lethal) proteins by tricking human cells into generating them (in the case of COVID-19, they are designed to create similar "spike" proteins that the virus itself creates). These technologies are considered "next-generation", along side 30+ other "platforms" that are being ramped up (heavily) using similar gene editing & nanotechnologies. Many of them are frightening in principle.

Cutting to the chase - the primary issues being raised by experts are clear. For one, the Emergency Use Authorization(s) and renewal(s) are only granted when there are no viable alternatives to treat COVID-19. That blends with the second issue of pre-existing medications that have been found to have very high efficacies in legitimate research studies, yet they've been discredited, censored and suppressed. That in itself is highly suspicious. Not to mention, all of the coordinated hit pieces and cancellation of numerous, credible experts & scientists that have made "opposing" statements to these experimental drugs.

Then, experts with first-hand knowledge have cited that many compromises were made, and critical decisions were rushed for the warp-speed distribution time-table. One example, Moderna's payload contains 100mcg of the drug, whereas Pfizer's contains 20mcg. According to Dr. Robert Malone (inventor of this mRNA technology) and other reputable scientists, that decision was a compromise between the scientists that wanted to deliver 50mcg and the corporate execs that wanted 200mcg. Corners had to be cut to rush 10+ year's worth of work in such a short timespan. Many of the side effects were already known, published, and documented by the drug companies long before the pandemic started. There are many issues around the possibilities of injuries and/or fatalities, yet "informed consent" takes a backseat to coercion? That is a clear violation of the Nuremberg Code (it's forbidden to coerce people).

Another questionable set of actions around this have been all of the falsehoods announced by officials. Many have been propagated in advertisements paid for by the CDC/NIH and propagated through the media / social media. Prime example: "we just need to get 70% vaccinated to hit herd immunity". Where are the studies and data points to back that up? There are many instances of lies that have been called out time and time again, let alone the scare tactics, repetitive "bot" posts on social media in favor of the vaccine, etc.

There are also many injuries and deaths that have been suffered. Yet, an i credivle amount of people claim that no officials had ever contacted them or responded to them. The question raised is why wouldn't they be interested in learning about what happened to prevent future injuries?

The issue of fiduciary bias has also been raised, where many (most?) of the top executive officials have financial stake in the vaccines. Surveillance technologies have also emerged as components of the long-term pandemic response, despite numerous violations of laws that come into light. Many of these execs have stake in these ventures.

Dr. Robert Malone summed it up quite well, when he said there are different types of people that react uniquely to the prospect of being vaccinated - the first are younger, healthier people who have extremely low benefit to risk ratios (definitely not worth their risk). Next, you have those who are elderly who may actually have a higher benefit to risk ratio, but there are considerations that have to be made prior to being recommended. There's another class of people that might say "this is cool technology, I'll volunteer". Another (large) demographic of people feel unsafe, do not trust those behind (realizing the repetitive dishonesty), and/or will not volunteer to trial an experimental drug that involves their DNA/RNA. He concludes - no one should be forced.

 

[FS1]

There are many folks (experts) who have spent their entire lives in medicine and many specifically in virology.

Why are all those whom disagree with the “narrative” being silenced, careers threatened and censored? Isn’t dissent a functional necessity in true “science”?

Riddle me that Batman.

 

[supercorndogs]

I agree with you in most of what you are saying. I don’t think anyone should be forced to take the vaccine. I think it is a choice. I personally don’t care if you or anyone else is vaccinated. The mortality is very low, but it isn’t zero. If you assume a mortality of 0.3% (3/1000) and you let the virus spread with abandonment (no masks, immunizations, social distancing…), that would mean roughly 1 million Americans would die from the virus every time someone contracted it. The issues with COVID is how easily it spreads and how little long-term immunity we see after infection. COVID is several times more communicable than influenza. The delta variant appears to be even more communicable and there’s an epsilon variant that might be even worse. Less than 5% of infected individuals have any immunity past 3 months. Almost none develop long-term immunity. So, conceivably if we didn’t have any restrictions or vaccinations, everyone could contract the virus at least twice annually and some more than 3 times. Even if you left the mortality at 0.3% (there is a suggestion that the mortality is higher with subsequent infections), that means at least 2 million dead every year in America alone. Now, you could say that most of the mortality is concentrated in the elderly, so it’s mostly just grandma/grandpa that dies off and maybe the mortality rate would drop in the younger population, but that isn’t the full story. Had a patient 2 weeks ago that lost her grandson (30 yo without co-morbid conditions) the prior week to COVID. Started having fever and GI complaints on Thursday and was dead on Saturday. I was healthy (training for a century ride) when I got COVID and ended up in hospital. So, it isn’t just grandma/grandpa that is being killed off.

As for the hypocrisy and politicization of the virus, I couldn’t agree more.

On the topic of insulin, it was a MUCH longer discovery time. Initially described in 1886 by Langerhans and called pancreatin. Banting and Best started research in 1921 and though they made a HUGE mistake in their study, they discovered the role of insulin that summer. Banting and Macleod were awarded the Noble prize a few years later. Fascinating story. Especially if you understand the mistake they made and the politics of research.

Polio and smallpox had much longer vaccine development. Yes, those diseases have higher mortality than COVID, but that mortality also limits its spread.

This sounds like info being released before we started "two weeks to flatten the curve."

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6529/eabf4063

Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19

The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.

www.nih.gov

Also please see Fuaci's emails, as we all should have known from the beginning, viruses are too small to be caught in a mask. Since we learned about the 1918 pandemic in history class, and the simile they used for how viruses pass through porous masks was "mosquitos through a chain link fence."

Performance of N95 respirators: filtration efficiency for airborne microbial and inert particles - PubMed

In 1995 the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health issued new regulations for nonpowered particulate respirators (42 CFR Part 84). A new filter certification system also was created. Among the new particulate respirators that have entered the market, the N95 respirator is the most...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"N95 respirators made by different companies were found to have different filtration efficiencies for the most penetrating particle size (0.1 to 0.3 micron), but all were at least 95% efficient at that size for NaCl particles."

"Above the most penetrating particle size the filtration efficiency increases with size; it reaches approximately 99.5% or higher at about 0.75 micron."

Covid19 viral bits vary from .06 to 1.2 microns. The best n95, will not catch all of the viral particles. The worst ones will not catch any, 3 Microns. Thats like throwing a 1 micron hot dog, down a three micron hallway.

That second part means .5% of particles .75 microns will penetrate the mask.

 

[pmclaine]

I worked around covid positive patients all last year. Never once contracted it. My immune system is probably a lot better than others because I'm always working around sick people.

Covid is no worse than the flu if you break the numbers down.

The CDC recently admitted that only 6% of the 600k actually died from covid itself, that's 36k people. All others had comorbidities. that should tell you something in itself.

Hospitals got extra money from .gov to inflate numbers. People who would have died from COPD, heart disease, diabetes, seasonal flu, strokes or anything else were lumped into covid, for hospital who couldn't do regular surgeries used covid as a way to make up that money.

PCR tests were run up to 40 times to detect the virus and at that point the amount wouldn't be spreadable, but were reported as covid positive tests.

Wonder why .

This whole thing is a sham and if you believe different, then you are brainwashed and should get off the internet.

Doc

The flu no longer exists.

Zero cases.

And the fact anyone even says it is an indication that we live in clown world.

 

[pmclaine]

If you absolutely do not understand what a comorbidity is, then this totally makes sense and only 36000 died of covid. But in reality, having a comorbidity does not mean that you are about to die. In fact, over half of the people in the US have at least one comorbidity, and a vast number have multiple. So what you should be talking about is life years lost to covid, and while a fat fuck thirty year old would count as a multiple comorbidity covid death, and therefore, by your count, not a covid death at all, you are talking about a situation where 30-40 life years are lost because of covid. So really, the numbers you propose are horseshit, and given that you should allegedly know something about medicine, this should be quite embarrassing for you. But even more than that, there are many diseases that don't actually kill people, but lead to death. AIDS is a great example. But nobody would be dumb enough to say, "oh, no gay people died of AIDS in the 1980s, but man, a lot of young people died of Kaposi's Sarcoma, so why are we spending money on AIDS research."

None of that takes away from some of the greatest political offenses of the last year, but it is basically bullshit to suggest that only 36000 people died from covid.

Also, none of these things have anything to do with the vaccines, they are only a recounting of the last year plus.

Oh God, this fuckstain again.

The issue is a lot of people died of other shit but upon further examination when determined to have Covid were listed as covid.

There are the anecdotal motorcycle crashes and suicides.

And there are the videos of health professionals plainly stating that anyone that died, if found to have Covid, was a Covid death.

See Dr Birks and the Illinois health director. The Illinois one was funny because the Gov didn't have the balls to commit the lie, he stepped aside and threw his health director under the bus.

Hospitals were cash incentivized to call Covid deaths.

The number is inflated.

 

[supercorndogs]

My Gradma was subject to weekly testing in the nursing home. She was on hospice for nearly 3 weeks after she stopped eating, Dementia. Her COVID test the third week returned after she died was positive. She is listed as a COVID death, not died with COVID, died of COVID. Just think how deadly that is, she was almost to die, and COVID snuck in there and killed her first. I bet there are hundreds of thousands of more people who can tell the same story, because I don't know many people, and I know two people who's elderly relatives died from chronic conditions, then were listed as COVID.

 

[Nik H]

This thread is a perfect

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

I know ten people that tested positive for the COVID and they were never tested.
All of them went to local testing places last year. After sitting for hours in a mass of people in waiting rooms they decided to leave. Days later they received the results and were positive.

My Gradma was subject to weekly testing in the nursing home. She was on hospice for nearly 3 weeks after she stopped eating, Dementia. Her COVID test the third week returned after she died was positive. She is listed as a COVID death, not died with COVID, died of COVID. Just think how deadly that is, she was almost to die, and COVID snuck in there and killed her first. I bet there are hundreds of thousands of more people who can tell the same story, because I don't know many people, and I know two people who's elderly relatives died from chronic conditions, then were listed as COVID.