Rifle Scopes SHTF LPVO?

[Vereor]

What kind of loss of zero are you seeing with the Vortex and under what kind of conditions? Like after firing 1k rounds it moves .5".

Besides the complete failures (inability to rezero, lenses loose, etc) incremental shifts of .2-.6 mil has been very common. Common as in 75% chance of loss of zero within 3k rounds kind of thing.

No scope is designed to only shift .5 MOA. When ones gives small mechanical problems, be assured that large ones are hiding under the surface.

Have you had a chance to test out the new razor gen 3 yet?

I do not have enough use on them to really state. The first four I saw had optical abnormalities. The reticle went quite blurry between 3-4x. That and the history with them, I, nor anyone I know has seen any reason to spend time with them given what else is available.

 

[hypno02]

List of LPVO's I've used
-EO Tech Vudu 1-6
-Mk4 1.5-5
-CQBSS 1.1-8 H27
-USO 1-8
-Kahles 1-6
-Mk6 1-6
-NX8 1-8 Capped
-NXS 1-4
-NXS 2.5-10

My perfect LPVO:
1. NX8 profile
2. MK6 Turrets
3. ATACR Reticle
4. NX8 Illum
5. Mk6/G2R/K Sight Picture

 

[Zane1844]

Besides the complete failures (inability to rezero, lenses loose, etc) incremental shifts of .2-.6 mil has been very common. Common as in 75% chance of loss of zero within 1k rounds kind of thing.

No scope is designed to only shift .5 MOA. When ones gives small mechanical problems, be assured that large ones are hiding under the surface.

Besides the complete failures (inability to rezero, lenses loose, etc) incremental shifts of .2-.6 mil has been very common. Common as in 75% chance of loss of zero within 1k rounds kind of thing.

No scope is designed to only shift .5 MOA. When ones gives small mechanical problems, be assured that large ones are hiding under the surface.






I do not have enough use on them to really state. The first four I saw had optical abnormalities. The reticle went quite blurry between 3-4x. That and the history with them, I, nor anyone I know has seen any reason to spend time with them given what else is available.

I'll be looking out for that with my Gen3 Razor. So far so good.

 

[NateSavannah]

I’m probably going to regret this....

To be clear- if I could guarantee the function of the Gen II Razor 1-6x, it would be the optic I would use for your stated needs. However, in using a bunch of them the reliability and zero retention is not there. Same for most others. People will squeal at that, fair enough. Before stating such and such unit uses, or 3-gun popularity, etc.: ask yourself this- how many users are zeroing their rifles and pulling enough ammo from a single lot number to check zero retention for the entire barrels life? The answer is no one. The reason that people think all these scopes are so great is because they are not tracking zero retention in any meaningful way.




For your stated uses it would be between the SWFA SS 1-6x HD, NF NX8 1-8x, and NF ATACR 1-8x. Of those, for the stated use for me- NX8. Reliability, durability, size, and weight- it crushes everything else. The Trijicon VCOG 1-6x isn’t in consideration due its many shortcomings, and the 1-8x version doesn’t offer anything over the three above yet adds considerable size and weight.


Between the ATACR and 1-8x VCOG, the ATACR is better in every way. Well, some might like the circle on 1x better without illumination, but the NF is totally functional without it as well. The ATACR has a better eyebox, turrets, size, weight, and reticle when you do have batteries. The reticle on high power can be a wash depending on you preferences.

As for speed/usability in alternate positions- it’s really a wash. Using full kit- armor, helmet, belt, pistol, etc., time differences between them for the 9 hole VTAC drill on an 8” target at 100m is completely lost in the noise. World class comp shooters may be a second or two faster, everyone else it’s not even worth factoring.
There is a visual comfort that comes into play and that makes it seem like some are much faster/easier than others, but the targets and timer says no. For instance, for me I had thought the NX8 would be measurably slower than the Razor. Yet after a few thousand rounds in most conceivable uses, there was only a slight statistical difference inside 100m. Past that, due FFP the NX8 was faster. Either your index and alignment is solid or it not. If it is, you can use most anything, if it isn’t, everything is going to give you problems.



Left to right-

Minox ZP8- 2k’ish rounds, S&B SDII CC- 3k’ish rounds, ATACR- well over 100k, Razor Gen II- over 40k probably not quite 60k rounds, 1-6x VCOG- 30k’ish rounds, newer NX8, a bit over 20k IIRC.

[

The Minox loses zero from top impacts above 3ft. Otherwise works fine. S&B works. ATACR works- it, and about two dozen more have never had to be rezeroed unless barrel replacements. That specific Razor works, though adjustments are not correct. VCOG works except you can not get it focused to work at both low and high powers. NX8 works- and same as the ATACR.

man that vortex looks like its been living under a bridge in a porta potty.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Vereor,

So from reading your posts, it would seem that you would recommend the NF nx8 or NF ATACR 1-8 for a lpvo going on a 16 inch 556 or 16 inch 308 set up for general use. I don't really have s&b money or else I might try that, but the nf reliability and durability you report is impressive.

 

[BufordTJustice]

I don't think you can go too wrong with the ATACR. That's my favorite. It's expensive but...

 

[koshkin]

75% of Razor Gen2 scopes lose zero after a 1000 rounds? That doesn't pass the smell test.

The 40k rounds claim is difficult to verify (probably why it was made that way) and I have no idea what data set it is coming from. However, 1000 rounds is a different ballgame entirely. There are a lot of these scopes out there with a lot higher shot counts than that working fine.

Vereor, are you the same guy as Formi from 24HCF?

ILya

 

[steve123]

How does my poor ole Burris XTR2 1-8 FFP stand up compared to everything else??? Was it even mentioned in this thread, lol

Man I feel low on the totem pole of LPVO's.

 

[stilesg57]

How does my poor ole Burris XTR2 1-8 FFP stand up compared to everything else??? Was it even mentioned in this thread, lol

Man I feel low on the totem pole of LPVO's.

I LOVE those things, think it just wasn't mentioned. A little heavy (like 26oz, right?) and a 34mm tube which means a new mount for me. If it was 30mm tube and closer to 21oz like the GII-E Razor 1-6x, I'd have gotten it for my 3 gun rifle instead of the Razor.

 

[st1650]

At 21oz and FFP the Razor G3 seems quite remarkable on paper. Eager to see how it performs in the field. I have a 300 BLK SBR anTI with a 12.5 barrel on the way and I think it could balance the rifle nicely with Hawkins ultra light rings and a Manners UC stock. I was originally planning a NX8 1-8 because of how nice and light but for an extra 4 oz the Razor seems to offers a lot more.
I’d still wish someone would bring back the straight tube 2.5-10x24, something light and easy to get behind.

 

[Maxwell]

I just want to ask for a friend, does anyone use a Spuhr mount for the ATACR?

Maxwell

 

[st1650]

For those who have played with the NX8 with the exposed elevation turrets: is it possible to set the zero stop to allow 2 mils under zero ? I do a lot of “long range” subsonic and I like to set my true subsonic zero at 0 for 50 yards and then be able to go under 2 mils for supersonic.

 

[st1650]

Wasn’t there a bunch of NX8 1-8 used overseas ? Haven’t read too many complains beside the reticle and the IQ at 8x.

 

[gunjunkie45]

I'm surprised I've only seen one mention of the SWFA 1-6 in this thread. It's an older design for sure but it has a very usable ffp reticle that doesn't really require the illumination to be of use. I've had one since they were released and have no complaints with it.

 

[MosesTheTank]

For those who have played with the NX8 with the exposed elevation turrets: is it possible to set the zero stop to allow 2 mils under zero ? I do a lot of “long range” subsonic and I like to set my true subsonic zero at 0 for 50 yards and then be able to go under 2 mils for supersonic.

Yes.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Trijicon AccuPoint 1-6 Amber Triangle. It's good enough for 10" steel plates @ 300 and doesn't need batteries. It's possibly ONE OF THE BEST optics with NO illumination on any power setting. Tritium brightness is just "usable" for squeezing off a shot in total darkness so don't rely on that. But when running a light indoors it's very easy to pick up the reticle because it doesn't get lost in your field of view.

It's the forgotten optic.....

~J

 

[Luke]

I have the Razor 1-6x and have used it a lot for coyote hunting, flat range use, hiking, competing, etc. I love the thing. Batteries are cheap and easy to stockpile. The 2 reticle choices aren't super awesome but honestly they work just fine. Have made consistent hits on E-Type targets out to 800yds with a 14.5" 5.56 AR. Daylight bright dot. True 1x. Very rugged. I would reccomend it, and would buy another if I needed to.

 

[jakelly]

Crap that wasn’t good data?!! Now I’ve got to cancel my 50k round, single lot number, ammo order...

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

I thought it was him. He's been making outlandish claims about Vortex for more than a decade I think. Usually the same ones and using the same ridiculous round counts. I once did some basic arithmetic on that and concluded that he sent a few weeks just pulling the trigger with no sleep or bathroom breaks to get there. Do you know why he has such a hard-on for Vortex? Did they refuse to give him freebies or something?

ILya

So this same thing has been going on for a while?

 

[koshkin]

So this same thing has been going on for a while?

Every time someone mentions any Vortex product in his presence, he immediately says that they all break after some round count. Because he talks about round counts and sounds authoritative, people tend to believe him.

According to him SWFA and Nightforce are the only companies who managed to convince Japanese OEMs to make reliable products.

I do agree that SWFA and Nightforce make reliable products, but the rest of it does not seem to pass the smell test. Or arithmetic test.

ILya

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

How is he able to shoot so many claimed rounds? Is he in a socom unit or some govt agency with an insane budget for ammo?

 

[tlear]

I don’t know the man or who he works for or where he works. The round counts sound high, but I don’t think he’s shooting all those rounds himself. If you have a scope that gets swapped between several uppers and different shooters, it wouldn’t take long to have a high round count with that scope.

Just my $.02

 

[koshkin]

How is he able to shoot so many claimed rounds? Is he in a socom unit or some govt agency with an insane budget for ammo?

I was under an impression he was with the AirForce.

I really do not have much okay into what he does, but his take on the performance of the Razor is counter to everything I have seen from other government agencies and private individuals I have talked to.

And my own, naturally, but I do not shoit quite that much. I do have a bit over 1200 rounds with the Gen3 Razor at the moment with no issues.

ILya

 

[Asiparks]

Going to 2nd the Accupoint: the post/red chevron reticle is supremely visible, the scope itself is stupid simple, light yet robust and it's just very easy to shoot- decent glass and eye box, SFP, no ranging to worry worry about if your zombie sized target is within 200yrds.
Mine doesn't sit on a rifle right now, but it's zero'd in a ADM and ready to put on in the event of a solar flare...They're cheap and cheerful, especially pre owned, wouldn't hurt to just have one kicking about as backup.

 

[357Max]

I was under an impression he was with the AirForce.

I really do not have much okay into what he does, but his take on the performance of the Razor is counter to everything I have seen from other government agencies and private individuals I have talked to.

And my own, naturally, but I do not shoit quite that much. I do have a bit over 1200 rounds with the Gen3 Razor at the moment with no issues.

ILya

That review he did didn't pass my smell test either. He said the Minox would loose zero from a top impact of 3'?? I found that hard to believe especially since the scope he pictured (below) doesn't have so much as a scratch on the elevation turret.

The Minox ZP8 is still at the top of my list for a no holds barred SHTF application..........Change my mind!
Full disclosure I don't own one of these (Yet). My current run any ammo AR is wearing a primary arms 1-6 ACSS rapter as is a mini 14. 6.8 SPC2 has a SWFA 3-9HD with 45 offset Troys. I spent WAaay to much money in the last 2 weeks to entertain a Minox purchase right now.

I believe the NF Attacker has a fixed parallax set to 175y meaning it'll be real hard to get a crisp focus close in and or further out 4-600 without taking the time to dick with the diopter. That rules it out for me.

The ZP8 has a very underrated reticle system called the CCR (complete combat reticle). They absolutely suck ass at marketing & thus not a lot of good info out.
As described below the reticle is automatically in the second focal plane from 1-2.5x & it automatically switches reticle illumination & focal planes as you dial past 2.5. 2.5-8x is in FFP (pictured below 1-2.5x on left & 2.5-8x right).
Now what Minox doesn't tell you & they should (@koshkin will hopefully way in), is that the parallax also switches automatically from 50m @ 1-2.5x to I think it's 210m from 2.5-8x. This means once diopter is set you should get a more focused image near to far vs something with fixed parallax like the NF Attacker (and thats asuming glass is equal).

Not a scratch on that turret? And to OP's point about batteries dying. With this reticle even without the large Red dot, it still draws my eye to center.

Edit: might as well add this since I don't typically see it provided in the ZP8 info.

The MR10+ reticle in the ZP8 is equipped with specialized markings to determine the upper body sizes of the targets. Not only can the torso height of 1 m (39.4”) and shoulder width of 50 cm (19.7”) be determined as a reference measurement, but also the height to the shoulders of 70 cm (27.6”) and the height from the shoulder to the top of the head of 30 cm (11.8”). The distances between 300 m (328 yds.) and 800 m (875 yds.) can be directly determined without calculation steps.

 

[army_eod]

That friggen Minox better have a foundation under it. 4k optic.

 

[357Max]

That friggen Minox better have a foundation under it. 4k optic.

I know, very proud of them they are Hmm (insert Yoda emoji). Street price looks to be about $2400.
We need another one of those Mouser sales. I'd bite for $1700.

In the meantime, Primary Arms Rapters are working fine for me so far. I've only beat the crap out of it once though in 2 years & about 1200 rounds.

For your entertainment Garand Thumb did a torture test on the Rapter. I think if you look he did something similar with the NF Attacker 1-8

 

[koshkin]

That review he did didn't pass my smell test either. He said the Minox would loose zero from a top impact of 3'?? I found that hard to believe especially since the scope he pictured (below) doesn't have so much as a scratch on the elevation turret.

The Minox ZP8 is still at the top of my list for a no holds barred SHTF application..........Change my mind!
Full disclosure I don't own one of these (Yet). My current run any ammo AR is wearing a primary arms 1-6 ACSS rapter as is a mini 14. 6.8 SPC2 has a SWFA 3-9HD with 45 offset Troys. I spent WAaay to much money in the last 2 weeks to entertain a Minox purchase right now.

I believe the NF Attacker has a fixed parallax set to 175y meaning it'll be real hard to get a crisp focus close in and or further out 4-600 without taking the time to dick with the diopter. That rules it out for me.

The ZP8 has a very underrated reticle system called the CCR (complete combat reticle). They absolutely suck ass at marketing & thus not a lot of good info out.
As described below the reticle is automatically in the second focal plane from 1-2.5x & it automatically switches reticle illumination & focal planes as you dial past 2.5. 2.5-8x is in FFP (pictured below 1-2.5x on left & 2.5-8x right).
Now what Minox doesn't tell you & they should (@koshkin will hopefully way in), is that the parallax also switches automatically from 50m @ 1-2.5x to I think it's 210m from 2.5-8x. This means once diopter is set you should get a more focused image near to far vs something with fixed parallax like the NF Attacker (and thats asuming glass is equal).

View attachment 7368041

View attachment 7368030

Not a scratch on that turret? And to OP's point about batteries dying. With this reticle even without the large Red dot, it still draws my eye to center.
View attachment 7368011View attachment 7368028

Edit: might as well add this since I don't typically see it provided in the ZP8 info.

The MR10+ reticle in the ZP8 is equipped with specialized markings to determine the upper body sizes of the targets. Not only can the torso height of 1 m (39.4”) and shoulder width of 50 cm (19.7”) be determined as a reference measurement, but also the height to the shoulders of 70 cm (27.6”) and the height from the shoulder to the top of the head of 30 cm (11.8”). The distances between 300 m (328 yds.) and 800 m (875 yds.) can be directly determined without calculation steps.
View attachment 7368077

Yes, it does switch parallax. So does S&B Dual CC.

ILya

 

[Ironman8]

For those who have played with the NX8 with the exposed elevation turrets: is it possible to set the zero stop to allow 2 mils under zero ? I do a lot of “long range” subsonic and I like to set my true subsonic zero at 0 for 50 yards and then be able to go under 2 mils for supersonic.

Short answer is yes...better question is why would you do it this way??

Set zero for supersonic and dial for subsonic.

 

[Ironman8]

I'm surprised I've only seen one mention of the SWFA 1-6 in this thread. It's an older design for sure but it has a very usable ffp reticle that doesn't really require the illumination to be of use. I've had one since they were released and have no complaints with it.

I had a SWFA 1-6x and while it had surprisingly good glass for it's price point, built like a tank, and had a very bold donut that attracted your eye to the center, the fine crosshairs and dot in the middle were a little too fine to pick up QUICKLY for a precision shot at the in between distances (say a "credit card" head shot at 25 or so yards)...in other words distances where you typically stay on 1X for the field of view and quick target acquisition but need a defined aiming point to make the hit.

I've since moved to an NX8 and it's nearly perfect for my uses...which are similar to what the OP describes. One of my top criteria is a bold reticle for the exact reason that I don't want to rely on illumination. Until LPVO's get 50k hours like an Aimpoint, this will be a top 3 criteria for me. The form factor, weight, and glass quality (IMO) all make this a viable contender. The fact that it has nuclear bright illum is just a bonus...and it does make a difference on the clock for me.

My only two gripes are the slightly tighter eyebox...which is nowhere near as unusable as some make it seem, especially after some training on it. Second is the relatively large center dot, which is only a factor when trying to shoot groups. It's a combat oriented scope, so a larger center dot doesn't hinder that task, but I feel it's unnecessary with how the FFP reticle works.

Somewhat related to the FFP/SFP debate, and more speaking to using the NX8's reticle, am I the only one that will bump the mag lever a little to about 2-3x (time permitting) when I have a 125-150+ yard shot that I just want to "see" a little better? Another one of those "in-between" ranges where I CAN shoot it on 1x, but if I have time, why not bump it up a touch to see it better? This is where I can see the utility of FFP.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Koshkin, good to know the gen 3 is holding up well. Also, what kind of convos have you had with high round count razor gen 2 scopes? Do any of them mention problems with holding zero?

 

[koshkin]

Koshkin, good to know the gen 3 is holding up well. Also, what kind of convos have you had with high round count razor gen 2 scopes? Do any of them mention problems with holding zero?

I am going to revisit the durability of the Gen2 Razor, but I do not have the means to test a larger number of units. I'll have to ask some people. I had a long phone conversation with the gentleman who posts as vereor here earlier today. I also talked to Vortex and to a couple of other people.

Other than vereor, I am not seeing any credible accounts of reliability issues, so I do not really know what to make out of it. I'll keep digging.

I'll continue using the Gen3 Razor and see how it does. I know it has gone through a set of durability testing without issues so that it is cleared to be used by units who choose to do so.

ILya

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Thanks. I appreciate you doing that for those of us interested. The gen 3 razor seems to be a great value, provided it is reliable. So I really am glad you continue to test it and keep tabs on others using it - I will either be buying one of those or a NF ATACR in five or six months.

 

[Cj3waker]

I really like the accupoint for what it is, simple with an easy reticle, good glass and eyebox, and very durable, I think of it as a magnified red dot. I may know a guy with a brand new swaro z6i 1-6 for sale though..

 

[TacticalPlinker]

From the internets. My Accupoint 1-6 and 1-4 looks the same ...

 

[LeadZeke]

Damn, just when I thought I had some good reliability info. Vereor clearly isn't shooting all that ammo himself. It appears he works for a training company that may run a range. All those rounds are being shot by himself, his coworkers and maybe even clients. All you need to do is look at the Battlefield Las Vegas threads on barf to see just how fast those round counts get up there in those situations. As for using the same lots of ammo, you just set aside a box of what you zeroed with. I do that for some setups as well. However, the shifts he is talking about (.2-.6moa) can be down to the shooter, weather, barrel wear, etc. Controlling for all of that would be difficult to say the least to get something close to a statistically significant result in such a small range outside of the margin of error.

Furthermore, I have heard of QC and perhaps intermittent durability issues with the Vortex Razor line (more so than with some other brands, but less than some others), but they always seemed to be the exception rather than the rule and I still think that is probably true. After reading his posts on 24 hour camp fire it does seem he has been very brand specific for a long period of time. I'm not defending him and I'm not believing everything either. It certainly seems off that the Minox has (as far as I can tell) no marks on it after supposedly drop testing.

Moving on, after the excellent info and suggestions ITT, some more research, and using the weekend to get behind a few more optics, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. I'm going to get an Accupoint 1-6x with the red triangle just to play around with and have as a backup. Fiber makes sense and it is cheap enough for me to do so.

2. If I wasn't concerned with no-battery performance I'd just get the Short Dot Dual CC. I may do so for a different rifle in the future.

3. If I was doing some serious competition I'd just get the Khales K18i 3GR.

4. I think I've come down to the final three for which optic to ultimately end up with. It is between the Khales K18i 3GR, Minox ZP8 MR10+, and Nightforce ATACR 1-8x. Any information about those three optics, especially on how they may compare and the durability of each would be greatly appreciated. @koshkin I would especially be interested in your thoughts between those three as you not only have used them but also since you clearly have enough connections to sniff out at least some potential durability issues.

Just to be clear, neither of the Vortex optics made the final cut not because of potential reliability issues, but because of the reticles. If money was an issue I'd probably just get the Gen II, and if money was an issue and I wasn't concerned about batteries I would probably get the Gen III. A lot of the final cut has to do with reticles, which are probably the most subjective part of the process. I will try to get behind a Gen III before I write it off entirely, but my preference for larger thicker stadia at 1x is probably not going anywhere.

I'm also going to try to at least look through if not shoot all three as time allows over the next month or two. I might have to fly to do so but a plane ticket is a hell of a lot cheaper (especially now) than any of these optics.

Everyone feel free to keep adding suggestions and using this thread for their own LPVO purposes, but info on those final three optics is really what I'm looking for at this point.

 

[richthe1]

Damn, just when I thought I had some good reliability info. Vereor clearly isn't shooting all that ammo himself. It appears he works for a training company that may run a range. All those rounds are being shot by himself, his coworkers and maybe even clients. All you need to do is look at the Battlefield Las Vegas threads on barf to see just how fast those round counts get up there in those situations. As for using the same lots of ammo, you just set aside a box of what you zeroed with. I do that for some setups as well. However, the shifts he is talking about (.2-.6moa) can be down to the shooter, weather, barrel wear, etc. Controlling for all of that would be difficult to say the least to get something close to a statistically significant result in such a small range outside of the margin of error.

Furthermore, I have heard of QC and perhaps intermittent durability issues with the Vortex Razor line (more so than with some other brands, but less than some others), but they always seemed to be the exception rather than the rule and I still think that is probably true. After reading his posts on 24 hour camp fire it does seem he has been very brand specific for a long period of time. I'm not defending him and I'm not believing everything either. It certainly seems off that the Minox has (as far as I can tell) no marks on it after supposedly drop testing.

Moving on, after the excellent info and suggestions ITT, some more research, and using the weekend to get behind a few more optics, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. I'm going to get an Accupoint 1-6x with the red triangle just to play around with and have as a backup. Fiber makes sense and it is cheap enough for me to do so.

2. If I wasn't concerned with no-battery performance I'd just get the Short Dot Dual CC. I may do so for a different rifle in the future.

3. If I was doing some serious competition I'd just get the Khales K18i 3GR.

4. I think I've come down to the final three for which optic to ultimately end up with. It is between the Khales K18i 3GR, Minox ZP8 MR10+, and Nightforce ATACR 1-8x. Any information about those three optics, especially on how they may compare and the durability of each would be greatly appreciated. @koshkin I would especially be interested in your thoughts between those three as you not only have used them but also since you clearly have enough connections to sniff out at least some potential durability issues.

Just to be clear, neither of the Vortex optics made the final cut not because of potential reliability issues, but because of the reticles. If money was an issue I'd probably just get the Gen II, and if money was an issue and I wasn't concerned about batteries I would probably get the Gen III. A lot of the final cut has to do with reticles, which are probably the most subjective part of the process. I will try to get behind a Gen III before I write it off entirely, but my preference for larger thicker stadia at 1x is probably not going anywhere.

I'm also going to try to at least look through if not shoot all three as time allows over the next month or two. I might have to fly to do so but a plane ticket is a hell of a lot cheaper (especially now) than any of these optics.

Everyone feel free to keep adding suggestions and using this thread for their own LPVO purposes, but info on those final three optics is really what I'm looking for at this point.

Apologize if this was already mentioned. Not the absolute best reviews, but pretty good and get a good look at reticles if you’re interested. Has the Kahles and NF compared, among others:

 

[koshkin]

Damn, just when I thought I had some good reliability info. Vereor clearly isn't shooting all that ammo himself. It appears he works for a training company that may run a range. All those rounds are being shot by himself, his coworkers and maybe even clients. All you need to do is look at the Battlefield Las Vegas threads on barf to see just how fast those round counts get up there in those situations. As for using the same lots of ammo, you just set aside a box of what you zeroed with. I do that for some setups as well. However, the shifts he is talking about (.2-.6moa) can be down to the shooter, weather, barrel wear, etc. Controlling for all of that would be difficult to say the least to get something close to a statistically significant result in such a small range outside of the margin of error.

Furthermore, I have heard of QC and perhaps intermittent durability issues with the Vortex Razor line (more so than with some other brands, but less than some others), but they always seemed to be the exception rather than the rule and I still think that is probably true. After reading his posts on 24 hour camp fire it does seem he has been very brand specific for a long period of time. I'm not defending him and I'm not believing everything either. It certainly seems off that the Minox has (as far as I can tell) no marks on it after supposedly drop testing.

Moving on, after the excellent info and suggestions ITT, some more research, and using the weekend to get behind a few more optics, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. I'm going to get an Accupoint 1-6x with the red triangle just to play around with and have as a backup. Fiber makes sense and it is cheap enough for me to do so.

2. If I wasn't concerned with no-battery performance I'd just get the Short Dot Dual CC. I may do so for a different rifle in the future.

3. If I was doing some serious competition I'd just get the Khales K18i 3GR.

4. I think I've come down to the final three for which optic to ultimately end up with. It is between the Khales K18i 3GR, Minox ZP8 MR10+, and Nightforce ATACR 1-8x. Any information about those three optics, especially on how they may compare and the durability of each would be greatly appreciated. @koshkin I would especially be interested in your thoughts between those three as you not only have used them but also since you clearly have enough connections to sniff out at least some potential durability issues.

Just to be clear, neither of the Vortex optics made the final cut not because of potential reliability issues, but because of the reticles. If money was an issue I'd probably just get the Gen II, and if money was an issue and I wasn't concerned about batteries I would probably get the Gen III. A lot of the final cut has to do with reticles, which are probably the most subjective part of the process. I will try to get behind a Gen III before I write it off entirely, but my preference for larger thicker stadia at 1x is probably not going anywhere.

I'm also going to try to at least look through if not shoot all three as time allows over the next month or two. I might have to fly to do so but a plane ticket is a hell of a lot cheaper (especially now) than any of these optics.

Everyone feel free to keep adding suggestions and using this thread for their own LPVO purposes, but info on those final three optics is really what I'm looking for at this point.

I did a video on sorta my choices in different price ranges a few days ago. My requirements are different than yours, but I do talk a little about the LPVOs, so here is the link:


Regarding the three scopes you are converging on. I like the ZP8 quite a bit and I am not aware of any reliability issues with it. It was my top recommendation for a few years, but I think I like the S&B Dual CC a touch more. Given that I have not seen a ZP8 for a bit, I am actually thinking of getting my hands on one to compare it to the S&B and Vortex Gen3.

Kahles K18 is a new design and it looked very nice when I saw it at SHOT. However, I have a strong preference for FFP once the erector ratio gets beyond 6x in LPVOs, so I do not expect to be testing it. It is an excellent scope by all accounts, but not my cup of tea.

I have spent a little time with the ATACR and I like it quite a lot. Far more than the NX8 that did not agree with me at all. My only real quibble with the ATACR is the narrow FOV, which is one of the reasons I prefer the Gen3 Razor to it.

ILya

 

[stilesg57]

I did a video on sorta my choices in different price ranges a few days ago. My requirements are different than yours, but I do talk a little about the LPVOs, so here is the link:


Regarding the three scopes you are converging on. I like the ZP8 quite a bit and I am not aware of any reliability issues with it. It was my top recommendation for a few years, but I think I like the S&B Dual CC a touch more. Given that I have not seen a ZP8 for a bit, I am actually thinking of getting my hands on one to compare it to the S&B and Vortex Gen3.

Kahles K18 is a new design and it looked very nice when I saw it at SHOT. However, I have a strong preference for FFP once the erector ratio gets beyond 6x in LPVOs, so I do not expect to be testing it. It is an excellent scope by all accounts, but not my cup of tea.

I have spent a little time with the ATACR and I like it quite a lot. Far more than the NX8 that did not agree with me at all. My only real quibble with the ATACR is the narrow FOV, which is one of the reasons I prefer the Gen3 Razor to it.

ILya

Aw damn, that Delta Stryker 1-6x is only 17oz and under a grand? Daylight bright dot? Is it as good on 1x as the P4Xi 1-4x or even GII-E Razor 1-6x? Maybe I’ll finally have a reason to stop talking up the Steiner 1-4x, ha

PS: totally different realm but glad to hear you’re liking the new Strike Eagle even if it isn’t quite up to the Meopta 6 optically

 

[357Max]

Anyone have any info on this one?
Looks like a little less field of view then ZP8
112'- 14' (ZP8) vs 107'-13' (GPO tac)
It's also a little heavier, a little shorter, & less $$

In the specs from the German web sight, item below caught my interest? I wonder if it is a variation on Minox's 2nd - 1st focal change?
From the terrible description I get the impression their somehow magnifying the FFP reticle when it's on low or 1x power.

GPOTAC 8X 1-8x24i, reticle – Horseshoe

The GPOTAC 1-8x24i packs incredible high-demand features into every item. Massive mil-rad lockable target turrets and an iControl™ illumination system with auto-off functionality powers an incredib…

gpo-usa.com

 

[roostercogburn98]

Call me crazy but 27 ounces seems heavy. Also the spec sheet seems odd. Says mils but lists the max elevation and windage in plain inches not even moa?
Also parallax also says Y-Yards but then lists it in Meters?

 

[357Max]

Call me crazy but 27 ounces seems heavy

I agree, it's 1/2" shorter then Minox & weighs 5oz more. That's like 3 pieces of heavy metal from a buffer tube. If that equates to durability it might be a beast best suited to a battle Scar!

Their 1-6 GPO tac looks more reasonable @ 20 oz with 30mm tube, but still has what looks to be a pretty good reticle and locking turrets.

 

[Greyswandir]

By all means, get the nicest LPVO you can afford, but if also get something simple and durable for backup. For example, something simple like the SWFA SS 3-9x42 with an offset red dot will cost you a lot less money, have a proven track record of durability and provide some redundancy. And it will work better for hunting in low light owing to a large objective lens. You are far more likely to be foraging for food than fighting off hordes of zombies.

To be entirely honest, I am as paranoid as anyone else and I do have two of those SWFA 3-9x42 scopes set up with red dots exactly as I mentioned. I also have Razor Gen3 and S&B Dual CC. And the 1-6 Stryker. And a bunch of other stuff. Scopes come and go all the time. At any given time, I have between 30 and 60 different scopes and red dots here. New stuff gets here all the time and other stuff leaves. However, for every scopable rifle, I have a primary scope and a back up scope. It has nothing with coming apocalypse. I just like redundancy and consider it to be cheap insurance for some of life's quirks.

ILya

Out of curiousity, why the SWFA 3-9 over the 3-15? Is the 3-15 less robust? Thanks and appreciate any insight you may have!

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Koshkin, I watched your latest overview of recommended scopes per price range and really enjoyed it. I am sure that took some time to set up, but I very much appreciate it.

I look forward to more videos, especially a comparison with the lpvo from s&b vs vortex gen 3. I would not mind a comparison between the NF ATACR and the Vortex gen 3 either, since I believe they are going after the same market.

 

[koshkin]

Out of curiousity, why the SWFA 3-9 over the 3-15? Is the 3-15 less robust? Thanks and appreciate any insight you may have!

They are both quite robust, but the 3-9x42 has wider FOV and better contrast. It is also a little lighter.

ILya

 

[LeadZeke]

Thanks again everyone and @koshkin for the excellent information. I was actually browsing your site and got turned on to the March 1-8x, specifically the non-shorty that has the parallax adjustment (which seems very rare for an LPVO). Seems like it has a reticle that is usable on 1x and is FFP. Anyone have any thoughts on the larger March 1-8x? I've heard that the illumination is now daylight bright with the 6 position illumination module, but it is hard to find info online. Not sure if it is as durable as the Khales, but it seems like it gives it a run for the money otherwise?

I'll probably just end up with the ATACR, but I really want to leave no stone un-turned here.

 

[koshkin]

Thanks again everyone and @koshkin for the excellent information. I was actually browsing your site and got turned on to the March 1-8x, specifically the non-shorty that has the parallax adjustment (which seems very rare for an LPVO). Seems like it has a reticle that is usable on 1x and is FFP. Anyone have any thoughts on the larger March 1-8x? I've heard that the illumination is now daylight bright with the 6 position illumination module, but it is hard to find info online. Not sure if it is as durable as the Khales, but it seems like it gives it a run for the money otherwise?

I'll probably just end up with the ATACR, but I really want to leave no stone un-turned here.

March scopes are very durable. Everything is cemented in place.

The illumination is still not quite day bright, but the reticle is usable on all magnifications.

The 6 position illumination combines the dynamic range of the two flavors of the original 4-position switches, but it is not really brighter.

ILya

 

[W54/XM-388]

@koshkin on the
D8V24FIML

What reticle do you prefer?

The FMC-2 looks interesting for low power, but looks like it would give up a lot of usability at the 8x power end?
The FMC-3 looks like it would be great at the high end but no so good at 1x ?

 

[army_eod]

Which begs an entirely random question; at what magnification does an optic quit being considered “low power?” 10? 12?

 

[koshkin]

Which begs an entirely random question; at what magnification does an optic quit being considered “low power?” 10? 12?

That's mostly a question of how low it goes, rather than how high it goes in magnification.

ILya