Sleuthing the Federal Gold Medal match load... Mk 316 Mod 0?

[918v]

I ran this load through QL and it is dead on optimized for a 24" barrel in terms of Optimum Barrel Time.

I loaded two variants, one an exact duplicate and another optimized for a 26" barrel. I'll shoot it tomorrow though my TRG.

 

[oathkeeper]

I ran this load through QL and it is dead on optimized for a 24" barrel in terms of Optimum Barrel Time.

I loaded two variants, one an exact duplicate and another optimized for a 26" barrel. I'll shoot it tomorrow though my TRG.

So what would be the optimum for a 20 inch barrel?

-Dick-

 

[918v]

Its almost exactly the same for 24" and 20" barrels so use it as is.

 

[CK_32]

A pet load of mine in my 22" GAP 10 308 using a Nosler 155 CC bullet / 44.0 of H-4895 in a Federal GMM case / Tula primer / gives me an AVG. speed of 2819 FPS.

I have a bunch of 168 AMAX TAP Factory ammunition, but I'm not near my reloading equipment to get a weight on the powder. It will be some time before I can get there.

I shoot a good amount of hand loads using the Hornady 168 A MAX bullet. I've made very accurate loads using: 43.5 Reloader 15 / 43.0 IMR 8208XBR / 43.0 IMR 4064 / 45.0 Varget and 41.0 Alliant AR Comp.

Any luck pulling that TAP?

 

[GhostFace]

I will definently do it and take pics tomorrow. I have been real busy at work with all thr bad weather plus it was my long week to work....

 

[918v]

I pulled some 168 TAP a few years ago and it had an average of 44.4grs of Varget in it. The range was 44.2 to 44.6grs. The powder looked, miked, and shot like Varget in my Remington LTR.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Any luck pulling that TAP?

I should get to it by noon today.

 

[918v]

OK

I shot my replica MK316 load this morning in 50 degree weather. I used FCGM once fired brass which I annealed and F/L sized. I used a FC210M primer and 41.8grs of 4064. My 175SMK bullets measured 1.235" and my OAL was 2.800". The replica load shot .5" at 100 yards from my 26" TRG22, but it impacted .5" left of my sight in POI.

Then I shot my MK316 reica load I tweaked for my barrel length using QL to predict the correct barrel time. That load printed a half inch group, right where the rifle is sighted in at.

My IMR 4895 load outshot it, printing a .3" group.

Then, the temperature went up and so did the POI.

When I was done, the temp went up 20 degrees and my point of impact went up by one inch. Normally, in 50 degree weather, the load gives me a generous cushion: 41.8, 42, and 42.2grs all shoot the same. At 42.4grs the groups will open up a bit. Today, at 70 degrees, the 42.2gr charge weight opened up. I think it is worthwhile to map the powder charge weights against temperature and have a different load for every 20 degrees. Or just use Varget.

I'm gonna retest the replica MK316 load at different temperatures to see if the temperature stability claims are true.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Any luck pulling that TAP?

Okay, I pulled and weighed the powder from 5 rounds from 3 different lots of 308 Win. 168 A MAX TAP.

2- Rounds / nickel primer / no primer crimp / Annealing patina left on cases. Ammo is 5-6 years old. 44.3 and 44.4 grains.

2- Rounds / brass primer / no primer crimp / polished cases. Ammo is 2-3 years old. 44.3 and 44.4 grains.

1- Round / brass primer / polished cases / no primer crimp. 44.7 Grains.


All of the powder looked like Varget. The powder charges are within the powder charges used with Varget.

I do know Newer lots of 168 TAP have nickel primers with a primer crimp now and the fired cases weigh (with primer in) in the 170+ grain range. I have a couple of hundred fired cases from these newer lots.

The older lots of Hornady TAP that I measured today have thinner cases that weigh (with primer in) 156-160 grains. I have a bucket full of these once fired cases.

I'm scheduled to shoot with my old team this Friday. They have some of the newer lots of 168 TAP with the crimped primers and heavier cases. I'll try to snag a couple of loaded rounds and pull them. The only catch is I'm having an Eye procedure done later today that may knock me out for the rest of the week. I'll have to wait to see how my eye feels.

***EDIT 02/16/14***

I had a chance to get 3 loaded rounds of the Hornady 168 AMAX TAP that has the heavier cases (170+ grains) that has been purchased in the past year or so. An interesting discovery.

3 rounds- Nickel primer crimped / Polished cases / purchased in the past year.
44.8 / 44.4 and 44.5 grains.

The powder is definitely NOT VARGET. The powder is dark gray, is short grained and the grains are just a little bigger than Varget or Reloader 15.

This is a good example of how the Ammunition manufacturers change their loads according to what powders they get at the time and load to velocity and pressure. The earlier examples I pulled in this same load had a powder that looked very similar to Varget in color and granule size.

I believe it is an effort in futility to try and sleuth a factory load unless you can get a factory loading data sheet (as Dan did with in post #6 with the Special Ball L/R) that specifies a canister powder that is available to reloaders.

 

[dmike]

Matching velocity in hopes of achieving the same level of accuracy does not work because barrel time can vary, even with the same MV. Think about two drag race cars... one accelerates faster, and hit top speed sooner than the other... it finishes with a faster 1/4 mile time... even though the other car crossed the finish line at the same speed.

Barrel time, not per se muzzle velocity, is what you're after as you search for a good, accurate, repeatable load.

Dan

great analogy, thanks. Tag...

 

[CK_32]

OK

I shot my replica MK316 load this morning in 50 degree weather. I used FCGM once fired brass which I annealed and F/L sized. I used a FC210M primer and 41.8grs of 4064. My 175SMK bullets measured 1.235" and my OAL was 2.800". The replica load shot .5" at 100 yards from my 26" TRG22, but it impacted .5" left of my sight in POI.

Then I shot my MK316 reica load I tweaked for my barrel length using QL to predict the correct barrel time. That load printed a half inch group, right where the rifle is sighted in at.

My IMR 4895 load outshot it, printing a .3" group.

Then, the temperature went up and so did the POI.

When I was done, the temp went up 20 degrees and my point of impact went up by one inch. Normally, in 50 degree weather, the load gives me a generous cushion: 41.8, 42, and 42.2grs all shoot the same. At 42.4grs the groups will open up a bit. Today, at 70 degrees, the 42.2gr charge weight opened up. I think it is worthwhile to map the powder charge weights against temperature and have a different load for every 20 degrees. Or just use Varget.

I'm gonna retest the replica MK316 load at different temperatures to see if the temperature stability claims are true.

What velocities are you getting with that load. My WCC 175 Varget load has my node at 44.2gr. Giving me around 2550 from my 20" bolt gun. Just about enough push and hopefully get me out to about 1100yards before I hit the sub/transonic section in my region of where I shoot at.

 

[918v]

My chrony no workie.

I was only looking at point of impact, but figure about 2600 FPS.

 

[doctordoctor]

With Winchester brass, look around 42.1 to 42.2 grains...

Dan

now are we talking 168's or 175's here? You also mentioned Lapua being 41.9 grains... is that 168 or 175's? Thanks!!!

Oh... What is the COL of the 175's? I don't have any factory made ammo to check it out myself? Thanks! I am assuming it is 2.8"

 

[Dan Newberry]

175's at an average COAL of 2.800"

 

[doctordoctor]

what about the grains previously described were those for 175's or 168's?

 

[mtang45]

Dan, Any suggestion for a node load using Nosler brass?

 

[918v]

Anybody actually tested the water capacity of this MK316 brass?

Nosler is 54.7grs

 

[Dan Newberry]

The Nosler is pretty thick, similar to LC or Federal... so I'd look in the vicinity of 41.8 grains of 4064 with 175's, or 42.8 grains with 168's.

 

[mtang45]

The Nosler is pretty thick, similar to LC or Federal... so I'd look in the vicinity of 41.8 grains of 4064 with 175's, or 42.8 grains with 168's.

Thank you, I'll run a test 41.6 to 42.0

 

[Niles Coyote]

I decided to give this a try in my 20” AAC R700 barreled action. Accuracy was good but velocity had me scratching my head. 5 over the magnetospeed showed a 2412 average with an ES of 48. I came back to double check what had been posted and I see my FC case weight is lighter than what [MENTION=84041]Dan Newberry[/MENTION] had used. This is old brass is early to mid 90’s and cases weighted 172-177 with the bulk coming in between 175-176. So I am going to test again with weight sorted cases at 41.8 to see if that tightens my ES and also explore the next node... I was expecting to be around 2475-2500 as that would be where FGMM had been when I tried some old stock a few years ago.

 

[918v]

MK316 ammo uses new cases. Are you using fired/resized cases? Cuz that will make a difference, especially with ES.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I had a chance to get 3 rounds of newly manufactured Hornady 168 A MAX TAP and pulled and weighed the charges. I updated the information in my original data in post # 109

 

[ArmyJerry]

I agree , the loads probably change by supply /price availability of acceptable range of powders, I dont think there is any one right answer so pick one, load em up and shoot.

***EDIT 02/16/14***

I had a chance to get 3 loaded rounds of the Hornady 168 AMAX TAP that has the heavier cases (170+ grains) that has been purchased in the past year or so. An interesting discovery.

3 rounds- Nickel primer crimped / Polished cases / purchased in the past year.
44.8 / 44.4 and 44.5 grains.

The powder is definitely NOT VARGET. The powder is dark gray, is short grained and the grains are just a little bigger than Varget or Reloader 15.

This is a good example of how the Ammunition manufacturers change their loads according to what powders they get at the time and load to velocity and pressure. The earlier examples I pulled in this same load had a powder that looked very similar to Varget in color and granule size.

I believe it is an effort in futility to try and sleuth a factory load unless you can get a factory loading data sheet (as Dan did with in post #6 with the Special Ball L/R) that specifies a canister powder that is available to reloaders.

 

[secondofangle]

You guys remind me. I bought a Springfield M1A Loaded in 1998. Has a TRW bolt and USGI trigger group, NM barrel. My buddy who was in the 2nd Ranger Bat in 1990 said, "just go get some Federal GGM and shoot it". I was convinced that I could do better with reloads. I tried and tried, to no avail. Eventually, I tore apart a FGGM round and did like what you guys did. I determined that it was 4064 powder. I used Accurate 4046, because in those days I was obsessed with the fact that my Colt AR15s shot lights out with 24+/- grains of accurate 2015BR. I had a thing for Accurate powders in those days. Anyway, the closest I could get to the factory Federal GMM ammo was by trying to duplicate them. I remember talking to an old timer at the Zia Rifle Range in Albuquerque NM in those days - he thought my brass was fucking with me - so he gave me some LC match brass which I still have. I tried that brass, it didn't make a difference. The cocktail that works with this cartridge is just simply good brass good primer 168 grain SMK and 41+/ grains of 4064. End of story.

 

[PorkChop]

Tag for future reference.

 

[918v]

I found a FC 09 NATO case today. I sized it, weighed it, filled it with water and weighed it. It looks like it's a rebranded commercial FC case.

 

[doctordoctor]

here is my copycat loads. They were better than the factory loads! The 1st shot was a sighter shot. Had very bad crosswinds with pouring rain. Looks like These loads are legit!!!

 

[DanSavage]

Dan,
When I was chasing the 168 FGMM load a few years ago, I knew the powder was IMR 4064.
Now the most interesting thing I have noticed is that the 168 FGMM does NOT use a Federal Match Primer. I punched the primers out from a few different lots over the past 3 years and they appear to be the regular Large Rifle Federal primers. There is no red-yellow look to the primers in the FGMM. I once heard a myth about the FGMM using a gold match primer not available to reloaders.
Regarads
Dan

 

[Dan Newberry]

That's interesting... I never looked at the primers, but have always figured there's practically no real difference between the match and regular primers, for any of the makers. I think QC is supposed to be higher, but who knows(?)...

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Thanks for the thread.

Tag for future reference.

Wanted you to know that your research and posting are much appreciated. Thanks,Dan. I'm with porkchop. Info saved. Actually, I'll start putting together some test loads for my guns

 

[DanSavage]

I also find it interesting that the FGMM and a lot of factory ammo doesn't have a chamfered cases mouth, pulled bullets look nice and clean without scrape marks from the seating process.
I pulled apart a Federal blue box 150 power shok .308 round last night and the primer looks the same as a 168 FGMM round. At first glance the powder looks like IMR 4064 and I had to tap the case real good to get the compressed powder out. I was surprised when I put the powder back in the case that it was up into the neck area,,, definitely a compressed load!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

For the 168, the 42.6gr IMR-4064 load sounds about right; my load for the 175 is 42.2gr IMR-4064. I just use WLR primers; consistent enough and very positive ignition. All my 308 loads, when I had .308's, were made from Rem brass. Factory ammo is often made with the same primer they sell for reloading, but sometimes they don't nickel plate them. If plating on primers is anything other than cosmetic, you could fool me...

Greg

 

[918v]

What velocities are you getting with that load. My WCC 175 Varget load has my node at 44.2gr. Giving me around 2550 from my 20" bolt gun. Just about enough push and hopefully get me out to about 1100yards before I hit the sub/transonic section in my region of where I shoot at.

OK

Got a new chrony, Magnetospeed. Wow my load is slow... only 2500 FPS. I thought I was on the 1.329ms node but actually I was on the 1.415ms node. After a tweak, QL is telling me I need 43.6grs to hit the 1.329ms node (2600 FPS). Back to the range I go.

On a positive note, the plastic bayonet did not affect POI or group size.

 

[GhostFace]

Alright I didn't disect any 168 TAP yet since at least another person done it already. I did disect HSM's 178 AMAX load. I will disect a 178 BTHP from Hornady either tonight or in a couple of days. I have not shot this yet but my buddy has in a semi custom R700. His barrel is a short chambered Shilen match, I don't know what reamer finished it and this is the second heavy stuff he has fired through it. It only tolerates anything heavier than 168. The HSM 178 AMAX is loaded with a extruded powder that looks and smells ALOT like IMR4895. I will shoot it through my AR-10 the next time I hit the range. My first batch of reloads I stockpiled I was using IMR 4895 and the 178 AMAX. I statred loading this combo back in 06 when Dan recomended it and it shoots damn good! Here are the pics of the HSM...

The box...

The headstamp, I believe ADI is Aussie?

COAL...

The charge weight...

A close up of the powder...

Like I said before my buddy's rifle shoots one ragged hole at 100 yards with damn near anything 168 but the heavier stuff and it's right at 1MOA. My AR-10 will shoot anything well and seems to have a fondness for 4895 and 4064. I am confident this will shoot well in my rifle but it will have to wait until it warms up some.

Hornday's 178 BTHP nonsuperformance load is up next unless someone objects....

 

[GhostFace]

And here is the 178 BTHP NON Superformance load...

COAL is about like the HSM...

Powder certainly looks like Varget as I repeated what I have been told many times from Hornady's people. The charge is spot on for Varget too...

Closer look...yup...I think it is Varget....

 

[Eight_Ring]

Does anybody have any insight into the 30.06 FGMM load (for the Garand)?

I'd be happy to run a test with my match Garand if you guys have an educated guess as to where to start.

 

[Dan Newberry]

OK

Got a new chrony, Magnetospeed....
On a positive note, the plastic bayonet did not affect POI or group size.

I've see that too, regarding the Magnetospeed... it blew my mind to see a guy who was nailing our 12" 740 yard plate time after time take a break, install the Magnetospeed... then without a scope adjustment at all, he went right back to hammering that plate.

 

[Dan Newberry]

Does anybody have any insight into the 30.06 FGMM load (for the Garand)?

I'd be happy to run a test with my match Garand if you guys have an educated guess as to where to start.

Pull a bullet, and weigh and photograph the charge and start a new thread and we'll see if we can figure it out.

 

[Dan Newberry]

Ghostface, that does seem to be Varget. With Hornady using boatloads of Varget, that could help explain where it's all going!

If 43.4 is a node (which I'm assuming it is), that indicates that the Hornady brass is acting more like Lake City and Federal as far as volume, though I've not done any direct comparisons to know that for certain. It might even be that this Hornady brass has less volume than the LC and FC cases, though I wouldn't have thought it.

 

[GhostFace]

Dan , Hornady change their brass about a year ago. at least that's when we started seeing it with crimped primers and the volume shrinking. I don't remember what it weighed, I don't have any .308 brass laying around, I've loaded it all. The stuff that I pulled I put back together.

Eight Ring, I pulled the 190 HSM and posted pics in the .30-06 loads thread in the reloading depot. It had 50.4 grains of what looked a Reloader series powder, maybe it was RL-22...

 

[FLIGHT762]

Dan , Hornady change their brass about a year ago. at least that's when we started seeing it with crimped primers and the volume shrinking. I don't remember what it weighed, I

I noted the weight of the new Hornady 308 TAP brass that has a crimped primer in post #109. The new crimped brass weighs in @ 170-173 Grains (with the fired primer still in) .

The brass is heavier and the necks are thicker. O/D of the loaded necks run about .336.-.337". Older brass loaded necks run .332"-.334". I run a .335" bushing on the new brass and a .331"-.333" bushing on the older brass.

 

[Dan Newberry]

I do have some notes on volume comparisons between Lapua, Normal, Nosler, and Hornady (the new Hornady) and the Hornady was considerably tighter inside than the others. So it's thick, for sure...

 

[cecztayl]

TAG
Awesome thread

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Pull a bullet, and weigh and photograph the charge and start a new thread and we'll see if we can figure it out.

Dan, I'd love to pull the bullet, but I don't have any .30-'06/168 FGMM onhand, and haven't seen any in my travels lately. Does anybody have an averaged charge weight for this round?

I'm guessing it's going to come out to somewhere around 48.0gr of IMR-4064.

<*Edited to add: This is the 168/IMR-4064 Garand load from the NRA Garand Rifle Reprint.*>

Greg

 

[GhostFace]

With out side tracking this too much I would like to know too. I have some 4064 loads(with 190s just for S/G) on the bench waiting for some warm weather to come. I figure with 4064 being such a good powder for .308 it would do pretty well with the '06 although at slower speeds then some of the slower burning powders.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

I do have some notes on volume comparisons between Lapua, Normal, Nosler, and Hornady (the new Hornady) and the Hornady was considerably tighter inside than the others. So it's thick, for sure...

My Hornady match cases are running about 172.6gr avg at 56.1 H20 (with fired primer) resized they hold 54.9..yes, I put the primer back in to check.

Lapua weighs 177.1 with fired primer, @54.3 h20

 

[918v]

Today's attempt:

(All groups from my TRG22 with Magnetospeed attached)

 

[bruddah]

Looks like a winner with that last group!

How did the primers and cases look stresswise? Looks like you could've gone a bit hotter to see what happened!

 

[918v]

Well, in the last group, the Lapua brass showed slight ejector marks and harder bolt lift than the others.

In the first group with the FC brass, no issues. In the 42gr load with FC brass one case had a slight ejector mark and harder bolt lift.

Primers were nice and round with all loads.

QL says I'm hovering around 50,000 PSI.

Next time I'll load 43.0grs in Winchester brass, 41.8 in FC commercial brass, and 42.2grs in Lapua brass to see if it was a fluke. I also found some MK319 ammo and some LC 13 LR to mess with.

What I'm taking from this is that case capacity plays a major role in load behavior. FC cases weighed 174grs, but had half a grain less water capacity than Lapua and needed .4grs less powder to reach the same velocity. Lapua cases weighed 172grs, had half a grain more water capacity than FC and needed .4grs more powder to reach that magic unicorn sweet spot. I bet 43.0grs in the Winchester case will be it, cuz 43.2grs is a little over 2600 FPS, but has an ES of 50.

 

[bruddah]

Then I'd stick with 42.2 in the Lapua brass. Looks pretty good from here.