You want to use 300blk subs be my guest. It matters none to me. The point of my posts is to educate people on the actual ballistics, energy and numbers of 300blk subs vs 300blk supers that do not know the difference and come read this thread.
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Some of you suggested looking at .300BO vs 5.56
- Thread starter TXAZ
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You want to use 300blk subs be my guest. It matters none to me. The point of my posts is to educate people on the actual ballistics, energy and numbers of 300blk subs vs 300blk supers that do not know the difference and come read this thread.
I'm not trying to be snarky to anyone, maybe I'm not doing a good job of making my point. I simply think a SBR is superior to a handgun if laws and concealment does not prevent the option.
I would rather have an SBR if I had to shoot through a windshield, reinforced door, storm window, car door, beyond 15yds, at the head, at a foot sticking out from behind cover, etc. If I do hit I would prefer the performance of a rifle round.
This isn't from watching too many movies, I am former military, was top gun from my police academy, firearms instructor, SRT etc. I an no Rambo or war hero, but real world experience and training tells me use a SBR with backup handgun.
I would rather have an SBR if I had to shoot through a windshield, reinforced door, storm window, car door, beyond 15yds, at the head, at a foot sticking out from behind cover, etc. If I do hit I would prefer the performance of a rifle round.
This isn't from watching too many movies, I am former military, was top gun from my police academy, firearms instructor, SRT etc. I an no Rambo or war hero, but real world experience and training tells me use a SBR with backup handgun.
I’m not a specialist by any means but I have worked for 30 years in a level one trauma center. Most people shot with .45 acp once take the room temperature challenge. I keep a SBR with subs for home protection because I would prefer not to kill innocents in my house. If one round doesn’t work I have at least 19 follow up opportunities. 300aac is perfect for home defense IMO
Says the guy who just insisted we’re going to run into meth heads with body armor that require magazine dumps to put down.
I’ve made this offer many times and yet to find anyone to take me up on it. I’m happy to put a pistol round of your choice into center mass on your body, and you can tell me how interested you are in fighting back, or getting another one.
Speaking of fan boys, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you have zero experience in any sort of real world threats, gunfights or anything beyond video games and theories of the end of the world. I know a lot of contractors overseas who ONLY use 22lr to take care of business, and it works quite well for them. I just use 9mm and 45 acp... and no shortage of meth heads here with body armor.
What does this mean? Are you implying your subs dont go through your walls so thats why you have them loaded up for home defense? If so I suggest you rethink your thinking.... Ive tested this myself and here is some more testing for you. A 45acp will penetrate 7 sheets of 5/8" sheetrock... Most interior walls in homes today are 1/2" sheetrock... You do the math on how many walls your subs are shooting through.
The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth
This is the Box. Having some time for study of this fascinating sport, I built the "Box O' Truth". The purpose of the Box is to test the penetration of various rounds. People often say, "I think...". "I suppose...", "I bet...", when discussing facts like penetration of ammunition. There is...
www.theboxotruth.com
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You are complete correct in your argument. I wouldn’t bother with a pistol if I knew I had to face any of those difficulties (and I almost always have a carbine except where conditions or my placement in the stack prevents it), I just stop many on here who insist on telling others they are idiots for wanting a pistol caliber or other weapon that doesn’t agree with “I need the largest weapon I can carry, armor piercing ammo and grenades if I’m going to survive a home invasion in my white collar neighborhood with zero crime”.
A rifle beats a pistol, but a well placed shot beats a poorly placed shot (or shots).
Nope, Ive never been in a gun fight and never claimed to be. You have continued to ignore the facts and statements being made and reasons for those statements. I dont care who you know in whatever secret squirrel group and how many people youve put in the dirt. Thats got zero to do with the discussion at hand about 300blk subs and why they are inferior to ANY rifle caliber with rifle energy. Now take a breath and think before you post after your vacation. I dont play video games and I dont go off theories, Im a hard data guy. Im sorry youre so upset and dont like the data but youll have to get over it.
We arent talking about contractors, .MIL or a war zone. We had a professional ring hitting homes in my AO last year that had the entire "white collar" area in fear with multiple agencies involved trying to catch them. They hit many homes all within 10 miles from my house, 1 of which was 0.5mile away over 7 or 8 months wearing body armor, beating kids to get parents to give up valuables and bank acct info/pins, a father was shot when he walked in on the robbery in progress and they were eventually caught. Crew of 3 from an adjoining state.
You can have your 22LR beside your bed, again I dont care. But its not zombie theory, its facts.
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Agreed
I think the big question on what caliber is best is the given situation you perceive self defense will be needed.
I think what most people are missing when we talk about weapon choice is the circumstances and scenarios that play out
For ex: If I’m a single guy living in the country with no houses around me. A standard AR in 556/300 BO would be great. Personally I have a family but outside of my house have zero concern with what’s beyond my walls when protecting my family. I still choose a 12 gauge. Now if your in an apartment or close proximity over penetration would be a major concern.
Likewise if your if idea of self defense is rolling into a Wally World parking lot in the middle of an active shooting scenario then by all means prepare for it. In this case a pistol caliber anything isn’t the best choice
Every weapon has its place. And both arguments here are correct.
It’s always good to prepare for any event. In my LE experience they all do their designed job.
That said if I choose my 300 BO for self defense the rounds I use choose for inside my home would be completely different than what I choose for my “truck gun” but at that point you open up to other scenarios and other available weapon choices
I’ll also add that in my LE experience most LEO aren’t very good shots. Many even in our area only shoot when they qualify 1 or 2 times a year. And this is an area where everyone has 1-3 guns in their vehicles, mostly for hunting purposes
So with more incidents occurring having a weapon capable of better performance at longer distances than the 0-7 yards typical of a “self defense” scenario isn’t a bad thing.
My personal choice is 12 gauge in home. Handgun when I’m out. 556 in the truck
So with more incidents occurring having a weapon capable of better performance at longer distances than the 0-7 yards typical of a “self defense” scenario isn’t a bad thing.
My personal choice is 12 gauge in home. Handgun when I’m out. 556 in the truck
I'm an executive and although I havent had death threats, other executives have.
We have many warehouses, most very large and have had a history of post hurricane thefts when police dont respond, often an inside job so they know once identified they are going to jail. We have staked out our own warehouse in the past and it has resulted in arrests.
But my biggest concern comes from an incident years ago when I realized a stranger was following me home after a range visit with a bunch of nice toys that day. Called the local PD who stopped the person and got them for a parole violation, they let the passenger go.
The thing that sticks with me is how quickly a normal life can turn into becoming the primary focus of some disgruntled employee, your daughter's x-boyfriend, an opportunist after a hurricane when 911 is down, or whatever. I did executive protection for a bit after the military and many were just normal people except for one crazy.
I sometimes put myself at risk like when we try to catch who has been robbing us, but even without that, life happens.
We have many warehouses, most very large and have had a history of post hurricane thefts when police dont respond, often an inside job so they know once identified they are going to jail. We have staked out our own warehouse in the past and it has resulted in arrests.
But my biggest concern comes from an incident years ago when I realized a stranger was following me home after a range visit with a bunch of nice toys that day. Called the local PD who stopped the person and got them for a parole violation, they let the passenger go.
The thing that sticks with me is how quickly a normal life can turn into becoming the primary focus of some disgruntled employee, your daughter's x-boyfriend, an opportunist after a hurricane when 911 is down, or whatever. I did executive protection for a bit after the military and many were just normal people except for one crazy.
I sometimes put myself at risk like when we try to catch who has been robbing us, but even without that, life happens.
Distance and stealth, and with your strategy why carry 8-15 .45's in your pistol when I can carry 10-30 .300's and shoot farther faster and more accurately. And I agree with you on one point. Everybody has an opinion, and mine differs from yours.........
I bought a 300BO upper from Brownells on sale because I bought into the hype. Soon discovered the 45 ACP capabilities along with the high ammo cost.
Then I watched several videos of blown up AR's from people mistakenly firing a 300BO in a rifle chambered in .556.
Bought it cheap and sold it the next day even cheaper.
Then I watched several videos of blown up AR's from people mistakenly firing a 300BO in a rifle chambered in .556.
Bought it cheap and sold it the next day even cheaper.
We can’t just keep comparing 300 BO with subs either. The whole beauty of the 300 BO is the ability to fire subs and supers
Subs are pistol performance. Supers are a different animal when comparing to a 45 or 9mm
Subs are pistol performance. Supers are a different animal when comparing to a 45 or 9mm
Im fully aware 300bo subs will penetrate Sheetrock but it’s not comparable to the ping ponging a 5.56 will do in a structure. No answer is right or wrong in this argument. I choose 300bo because of my experiences working in a level one trauma center many years and seeing way more gsw’s than any one person should. And yeah more people die in the or with 22lr wounds than probably anything else but the bigger bores like 357 45 they aren’t walking and talking and they are usually doa or unresponsive. I can’t recall any 300bo wounds walking in but I’ve seen oodles of 5.56 walk in with multiples, in fact that’s almost a weekly thing.
No right or wrong on this one. 300bo is versatile cartridge but honestly so is 5.56 and owning both is the obvious answer.
No right or wrong on this one. 300bo is versatile cartridge but honestly so is 5.56 and owning both is the obvious answer.
I have a 16" 300BLK and a 12.5" 300BLK SBR. The first is fed Barnes 120gr TAC-TX. Also have some Hornady 110 GMX to try again, my first box was giving me flyers. The SBR is fed Hornady 190gr Sub-X. I have killed deer with both with zero issues. Both rifles are about 1 MOA.
If something goes bump in the night I'm reaching for my 223 SBR loaded with Barnes 62GR TSX as it has my light on it and always wears my Sandman S when I'm not using it.
But where I live, the only thing that has had me reach for it once was a bear in spring. I live in the sticks. Not worried about people.
If something goes bump in the night I'm reaching for my 223 SBR loaded with Barnes 62GR TSX as it has my light on it and always wears my Sandman S when I'm not using it.
But where I live, the only thing that has had me reach for it once was a bear in spring. I live in the sticks. Not worried about people.
...wow, this discussion went off the rails quickly! :-(
...despite the presumed "auto-correct" feature of your device used to post, the 300BO is a "worthy" investment, especially in todays pricing of ammo, as .223/5.56 costs have pretty much matched what 300BO ammo has been going for. Like any weapon chosen for "personal defense", whatever you chose, you need to be able to handle it comfortably, be able to feed it (multiple qualities/types of ammo) and be relatively proficient in its use (trigger time=ammo usage). The cartridge (like many others) is effective on humans, with all of the same caveats all other calibers have (placement, etc.). When considering your "personal defense", be realistic and honest with yourself as to when & where the actual probability of having to "defend" yourself and family will occur and pick a primary weapon of your choice and then add the "contingency " weapon used as the secondary.
Hey now, if they keep putting section 8 housing down the road it won’t be so white collar around here.
I've used both, they shot about the same in all my SBRs. I'd get what is available at the least obnoxious price.
Absolute drop at 100yds is 4.1" for 124gr and 4.3" for 147gr.
Hornady V-Max 110gr is 3.4"
For me they are close enough to the good ammo I just let them hit the inch low.
Hornady V-Max 110gr is 3.4"
For me they are close enough to the good ammo I just let them hit the inch low.
I have sold all my 223's I only have 300 Blk left. Besides cheaper ammo there is absolutely noting you can do with 223 you cant do better with 300 black.
EXACTLY! Ask anyone who's been hit by a .45, .........oh..........you can't find any survivors............argument over. I agree Sniperstud. it's the meanest home defense caliber there is (besides .458 SOCOM). A suppressed 300 BO is hell-on-wheels in a CQB home defense sitch. I don't want them to know where I am, I just want them DEAD. You're in my house and are uninvited. POP.POP, fizz, fizz.
We go out shooting subs on Yotes within 100 yds, then we shoot supers beyond 100 and we tear them a new one. We don't want to wake the chickens up at 3:00am. NO other round I own does what the B.O. does. You want to shoot cheap......................reload.
As someone who’s tested this extensively - no, there are definitely wrong answers, and your statement above is one of them. In fact it’s completely backwards; a heavy subsonic 30 caliber generally penetrates far more through building materials than a high velocity .22 bullet. High velocity results in fragmentation which stops bullets; subsonics typically don’t do this.
Fenix’s argument about not being able to tell the difference in wounds between subs and supers is ignorant as well. Most who’ve hunted with both and butcher their own game can vouch for the difference, and it is dramatic IME.
Edit to add - anyone who thinks subsonics will keep a bad guy from hearing them has no idea what they’re talking about. That’s just pure bluster.
Just ordered a few buckets of ammo from Gorilla. One of 110 grain and another of 150.
I live in Illinois and plan to hunt deer with the 150’s. Was hoping they’d work fine, just took a guess.
Just ordered my 300 the other night so I have no time with one yet.
I live in Illinois and plan to hunt deer with the 150’s. Was hoping they’d work fine, just took a guess.
Just ordered my 300 the other night so I have no time with one yet.
Better re-think that. Hunt with the 110 (depending what they are of course). Several good 110gr bullets are excellent hunting choices in the 300.
It's very unlikely the 150 are going fast enough to work correctly as a hunting bullet. Most likely the muzzle velocity is below the minimum expansion velocity to start with, not even considering distance. This is a slow cartridge and bullet selection is important for the application.
For everyone talking about 100 yard performance. Ahhhh if you shoot a bad guy thats 100 yards away is that still considered self defense or are you going straight to jail? And for those with suppressors what are the legal ramifications of using that in a self defense situation. I can see some civil lawsuit attorney painting you as a psycho/rambo wannabe that was just looking to kill somebody. Yes a 375 cheytac has better terminal ballistics than a 45 acp. Is it necessary? Does overkill play into any legal ramifications? What would a woke jurys verdict be in a civil lawsuit trial?
I like the blackout bullet for up to 200 yards. I really enjoy shooting the 223 also. Imo both rounds are reloader rounds if you want to shoot precise and less expensive. I have shot the 223 out to longer ranges but I still like the energy of the blackout. I don’t shoot subsonic at all. I have both and enjoy both. If I had to pick for defensive round I would probably pick a pistol caliber.
I believe the 150’s are Barnes bonded soft point, 1950 FPS. Figured they’d have a little more knock down for a 180# deer. I’m sure either would Probly work. Most likely at 150 yards or closer.
I have taken a 10 Point with the 120gn Barnes.
Took this 8 point with the 190gn Hornady Sub-X.
I would be hesitant to use the 150, regardless of manufacturer. Barnes is known for the 110 and slightly less popular 120 grain TAC-TX. Never really heard of anybody taking deer with anything that heavy for supers.
Edit - Neither deer went further than 30-40 yards.
The right tool for the right task. My SBR has a 8.5" 300 BLK upper with SDN-6 7.62 can, an Aimpoint Micro, Surefire X300 Ultra and loaded with Hornady 190-grain SUB-X Subsonic rounds and is my primary home defensive gun. I won't have to worry about hearing protection should I need it and all I need is the accuracy and effective terminal ballistics out to about 35-yards from the house in all directions. It actually shares the same linen closet as my Remmy 870 12 GA.
When all someone needs to do is cut down lumber they probably don't care much about hammers.
When all someone needs to do is cut down lumber they probably don't care much about hammers.
Forgot about the Gold Dots, lots of info on them at 300BLKTalk.
In my opinion, and it is just mine, my 9"BO is the ideal SHTF option. 220 gr subs at bedside and 125gr SST will put venison in the freezer easily out to 200 yards. Eotech with laser battery pack for HD, add 3X magnifier in the field. Just my opinion
Just wanted to point out that a pistol caliber coming out of a carbine is a lot different animal than one coming out of a glock:Here's a good article for you guys that keep thinking pistol caliber and pistol energy are good for stopping threats.
A Trauma Surgeon Talks About Wound Ballistics and Stopping Power
'I got involved in wound ballistics and what it really took to stop a threat during residency in Philadelphia because I had a friend on the police force who lost his job for use of excessive force by shooting somebody, I think it was, 18 times, and I always thought, maybe he needed to shoot that...www.policemag.com
1232fps from a carbine v. 1048fps from a pistol per Hickok45. Doubt many doctors have ever had to deal with a wound from a PC Carbine yet. It's not exactly the weapon of choice of inner-city drug dealers. I was actually looking for another video where they actually showed the effect of one versus the other on something like a watermelon. One split it, the other evaporated it.
Interesting article though. Trauma nurse once told me about the crazy amount of damage a knife can cause versus a bullet, one is clean and relatively easy to patch and the other just a mangled mess.
For those curious about the difference between Subsonic and Supersonic performance google "Hornady application and test report 2020"
Pages 118-125 talk about the 300 Blackout.
On page 118 Hornady says the 110gr is the absolute optimum choice for patrol rifles in 300BO.
Both penetrate about 17" but the 110gr has a much better wound cavity.
The report also shows results for dozens of varios pistol and rifle rounds.
Pages 118-125 talk about the 300 Blackout.
On page 118 Hornady says the 110gr is the absolute optimum choice for patrol rifles in 300BO.
Both penetrate about 17" but the 110gr has a much better wound cavity.
The report also shows results for dozens of varios pistol and rifle rounds.
What does this mean? Are you implying your subs dont go through your walls so thats why you have them loaded up for home defense? If so I suggest you rethink your thinking.... Ive tested this myself and here is some more testing for you. A 45acp will penetrate 7 sheets of 5/8" sheetrock... Most interior walls in homes today are 1/2" sheetrock... You do the math on how many walls your subs are shooting through.
The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth
This is the Box. Having some time for study of this fascinating sport, I built the "Box O' Truth". The purpose of the Box is to test the penetration of various rounds. People often say, "I think...". "I suppose...", "I bet...", when discussing facts like penetration of ammunition. There is...
Moral of the story, filling your walls with sand makes them bullet proof.
Accuracy, capacity, silence, control, flexibility of going out to 400+ yards with mag change. Seems like good stuff to me.
Yeah that 1950 fps muzzle velocity is the problem. (And that's most likely a 16", slower if you're using a shorter barrel of course.) That's most likely below the minimum expansion velocity, so you don't get the performance of a normal hunting bullet at "hunting rifle" speeds. Adding weight doesn't help when it makes the bullet too slow, it hurts; a lot of 300 Blk shooters struggle with that concept.
I'm also really skeptical about what those bullets really are. That's the first I've heard of Barnes making a bonded bullet, and there is zero information about them online except on Gorilla's website; even Barnes doesn't list them.
I don't know which 110gr bullet you bought, but if you can use the 110 V-Max, 110 Barnes black tip, or 125 Nosler ballistic tip, those are your best bets for hunting. In my experience the 125 NBT is the best of them for deer.
They listed it as the 110 hollow point varminter.
I will likely try some hornady also when I come across some, I’ll stick with the lighter bullet.
Friends of mine in UK SF tell me that in it's original configuration the rounds were in their word's "pencilling though" so they started experimenting with all sorts of exotic bullets some of which had started to expand sufficiently enough to cause problems in the moderator. That resulted in barrel lengths being reduced. They were searching for a firearm that could with the right ammo be used silently and covertly but when it hit the fan a the option of a supersonic round that would be effective up to 300yds. My friends retired while the experiments were still ongoing so I have no idea if the "holy grail" was found
Ber
Has a bad reputation for performance, even in full auto it has not had good real world results.
The FBI HRT gave Remington a contract for a 100gr TAC-TX in 2017, also a 201gr subsonic from Black Hills. The 100-120 grains dominate military and LE contracts for Supersonic.
They do also use subsonic, but keep in mind they are shooting full auto and have to do covert operations. None of the testing I know about has the subsonic performance up with supersonic.
If you are hunting, subsonic can offer advantages, but you get to wait for an ideal shot: well aimed shots, not shooting through obstacles and most importantly you can wait for the animal to drop. In the time a deer can run 40 yards and drop, a person can empty a magazine.
Already pointed out that not on topic, but FYI more velocity may not be a good thing. Performance is the right bullet design traveling in a window of velocity. Too fast and the bullet breakers apart, too slow and it doesn't expand. People who reload deal with this, a good bullet choice for 38SPL may be poor for .357mag.
