Unfortunately that doesn't work.
Look at Israel. They've oppressed the shit out Gazans and those on the West Bank. All they are going to accomplish is make more terrorists and Hamas members and supporters.
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Something kicking off in Israel
- Thread starter Mr.BR
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Unfortunately that doesn't work.
Look at Israel. They've oppressed the shit out Gazans and those on the West Bank. All they are going to accomplish is make more terrorists and Hamas members and supporters.
If at first you don’t succeed just try and try again. Palestine and other Arabs have been at Israel since its inception. It’s in their blood, they don’t want Israel to exist. Israel while not entirely innocent has done what has needed to be done since it was founded. Otherwise they would cease to exist which is exactly what Palestinians and other Arab nations want.
on the subject of OBL. i read somewhere,prob referenced here that OBL died 2-3 years before it was claimed. i thought that idea had much merit. 1) why dump the body offshore somewhere? leave it in place as a token or bring it back for a trophy?
2) he was supposed to be dialysis dependent. that usually means tx every other day,at least 3x/wk. staying leadership able possible but a bit of a chance to fail,under perform.
3) setting up tx in cave somewhere in pakistan or even some MOL primitive housing including constant supply of materials would not be an easy matter. could be done but v. problematic in the cave deal.
4) everybody,US,europe,some arabs were looking for him.
5) cia,mi6 etc couldn't find him. we know how skilled they are. right?
6) happened under obama. he was always and still is a supporter of terrorism and muslim supremacy,despite the public face. bows to the saudi king.
7) would obama sacrifice a fellow proponent? in a heartbeat but i don't think he needed to this time. the publicity saying "i got OBL" was good press and a huge distraction from his real doings.
guess i subscribe to the died earlier of renal failure idea as a possible alt story. we have seen a lot of those last 100+ years.
2) he was supposed to be dialysis dependent. that usually means tx every other day,at least 3x/wk. staying leadership able possible but a bit of a chance to fail,under perform.
3) setting up tx in cave somewhere in pakistan or even some MOL primitive housing including constant supply of materials would not be an easy matter. could be done but v. problematic in the cave deal.
4) everybody,US,europe,some arabs were looking for him.
5) cia,mi6 etc couldn't find him. we know how skilled they are. right?
6) happened under obama. he was always and still is a supporter of terrorism and muslim supremacy,despite the public face. bows to the saudi king.
7) would obama sacrifice a fellow proponent? in a heartbeat but i don't think he needed to this time. the publicity saying "i got OBL" was good press and a huge distraction from his real doings.
guess i subscribe to the died earlier of renal failure idea as a possible alt story. we have seen a lot of those last 100+ years.
more like 3 or 4. gear,weapons? tons of drugs and people are smuggled in every year. biden donated millions of same in afganistan and ukraine.
chinese buying a bunch of land close to US bases. easy to over run guards in a mass assault. easy to overwhelm gun,sport goods; police arsenals; private homes. prob already arms cached anyway.
Early zionists were actually considered allies of the arabs in the early days. It wasn't until land was stolen to create Israel that it became contentious between the two parties.
If you want to learn the history of this, Darryl Cooper, AKA 'martyrmade' has an excellent podcast series on this titled 'Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem'.
The people cheering on this assassination should realize what exactly they are cheering for...
I know all about the history and how Israel was formed. They have a right to exist and according to Palestinians all the land is theirs. Zero sympathy for Palestine. Lots of bias out there on both sides but when you distill all of it down to its core, Israel has a right to exist and to do what is necessary to ensure their existence.
And the Gazans and West Bank want the river to the sea. So your point is. . . ?
ME still will always be a mess. jews were actually there earliest after they drove out or killed all the other religions in the area. palestine was never a country or much of a movement before arafat. europeans and ottomans dicked around there for a long time. russians even tried and they couldn't do much with it except stir shit up. eventually the west gave the jews a formal country. arabs didn't like it and got smacked 3xs. we never should have stopped them in '68 or '73. problem likely different now. still have one,but. per int'l agreements israel exists and has a right to do so. got little use for them since they have corrupted our pols and behave badly in gaza and w.bank. shouldn't be our concern or expense. we can buy arab oil with or without them. of course we shouldn't be needing that,but another story that is.
these are the same people,semitics. slaughtering each other over their 2 religion,both of which kinda have the same origin. that is the usual role of religion in human affairs,slaughter and destruction.
these are the same people,semitics. slaughtering each other over their 2 religion,both of which kinda have the same origin. that is the usual role of religion in human affairs,slaughter and destruction.
Oppressed the shit out of....
Been out of Gaza since 2005, and their population exploded. Super oppressed, right? Or maybe it was their Hamas leadership oppressing the shit out of them, syphoning aid and becoming billionaires while their own people "suffer"... I suppose you want Israel to just open their border so they can blow up busses in Telaviv again and do more Islamic jihad things?
I do not want a all out war between Israel and Lebanon, there are good people in Lebanon, and Iran, and a lot more innocent people will die on both sides, but I'm happy that they are finally killing their leadership where they sleep, with sneaky bombs through their windows, or whatever. They have proven time, and time, and time again, that they won't stop trying to kill Jews, so fuck em.
Oppressed the shit out of....
You might want to read up on how Hamas came to rule there.
The dirty secret is the USA was kind of behind the cause of it.
So again, things aren't as they appear. The USA trying to put their own terrible rotters in charge of Gaza led to Hamas taking over because they were apparently just a bit less evil to the local population than the USA supported types. Oh and all those weapons, yep we kind of helped send a whole lot of them there when we were arming up our evil buddies to oppress the locals.
So you know, pot, kettle, reaping what you sow and all that...
Let’s not be too idealistic here. All the NATO intel agencies knew who he was and where he was.
This is the truth. I’ve got a Lebanese acquaintance. He and his family see the truth every day at home.
Netanyahu and his government have been propping up Hamas. As long as Hamas exists, Netanyahu has an excuse to sabotage any talks of a two state solution.
Netanyahu has been purposely propping up Hamas.
I have met many Palestinians over the years and I have never met one that would ever agree to a two state solution. They have rejected one at every turn. Their mantra “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” even reinforces it. Their idea of a free Palestine is for Israel to cease to exist. The bad blood goes both ways. If Palestine would accept current borders and agree to never attack Israel, this would all end but that’s not enough. They truly believe that this is the land of their ancestors and it is willed by God to be their land and only they should occupy it. Let’s ignore the entire history of the region and the world for that matter. Land changes hands and borders change. Just ask just about any Palestinian what borders they would accept for a two state solution. There have been bad actors on both sides of this and neither is innocent but what it all boils down to is what exactly Palestine wants and so far I have never heard of a solution on their part other than from the river to the sea mantra. They are unwilling to compromise even from a position of severe weakness. They have and always will try to drum up sympathy from outsiders citing bogus claims of genocide and persecution. They attack first and then play the victim. This crap has been going on for decades.
There's no easy solution to this. But there's also never been an acceptable good faith solution that's been proposed either. Israeli negotiators have even admitted that any two state solution proposals they've provided they would not accept themselves, if they were Palestinians.
And if you think Palestinians are the only bad faith actors in this, then you are not paying attention.
I don't know if it's worth your effort to argue with people about this. When you get down to it they fundamentally don't believe Palestinians are human on the same level Israelis are (probably due to religious reasons). So the apartheid is good apartheid, the genocide is good genocide, the gang-rape of prisoners by soldiers is good gang-rape. You can't argue with that, man.
Eventually a 2 state solution is the ONLY solution if you don't want just another 50 - 100 - however many years of bloodshed.
The problem is however that any of the current ideas for a "2 state solution" are completely unworkable and unfair and will make a huge mess.
Israel needs to be a solid, defended contiguous country with clearly defined borders and access to the sea and their neigbours, no external armies or governments telling them what they can or cannot do and enough space for their population to grow and enjoy life. With enough natural resources to have a proper economy that is self sufficient.
Any "Palestinian state" also needs to be a full sovereign, defended, solid contiguous country with clearly defined borders, and access to the sea and their neigbours, no external armies or governments telling them what they can or cannot do and enough space for their population to grow and enjoy life.
With enough natural resources to have a proper economy that is self sufficient.
There simply isn't enough room right in that spot for both of them to happen, there is really only room in that spot for 1 of them to have that.
Both are going to have to do some serious moving around regardless.
Perhaps once the Ukraine runs out of Ukrainians to die for the profits and glory of the west, then the Israeli government could buy all the "Palestinian" land from them at top dollar and they could all pack up and move to the now mostly devoid of males Ukraine and then Blackrock can get the contract to take all the "Aid" money and build them new cities and infrastructure.
Israel gets a nice country
"Palestinians" get a nice country
Russia gets a small buffer state filled with Arabs that will never want to help the west
The west gets a small buffer state that will never want to help the Russians
Blackrock and all the politicians in the west can get an extra big payout and be happy.
Or I mean Israel could go take the Sinai back from Egypt again and fix it up nicely and make that the new "Palestine" and the world could agree to recognize that as a sovereign country with it's own right to self defense, it's own borders and sea access and it's right to not be told what to do by others.
The only real two options are some sort of a 2 state solution, or allowing Palestinians to have the same rights and representation as Israelis. Either solution will have a bunch of obstacles to overcome, and won't be easy to employ.
An apartheid state that oppresses a group of people is only going to lead to continued violence, as you point out.
For a second there I thought you were talking about Israelis. Show me the Jewish representation in Palestine. Arabs hold many jobs and even political office in Israel. Can Palestine say the same? But you know Palestinians just came to party on October 7, they just are just misunderstood and didn’t mean any harm. Or it was the Jews that did it. lol.
The issue about living as one country with everybody having full & equal rights is that Neither the majority of the Jews or the Arabs want that.
The majority of the Jews understand if suddenly they were to do Exactly what their type has been pushing here in America as well as in Europe, that very quickly Israel would cease to be a Jewish homeland and they would very quickly become what we are becoming, an oppressed minority in their own country.
The same folks pushing this destruction of western homelands at the hands of migrants and invading hordes, aren't interested in letting their pretty little Israel suffer the same fate...
The majority of the Arabs don't want to live under Jewish rule for a couple generations while they outbreed them and take over. Much like all the Muslims heading over to here and Europe want immediately their own areas for just them.
There are in fact many Arabs that do live in Israel as citizens, and they have rights and all that (but they are not actually equal in a lot of ways except for a few).
The Christian Arabs are more likely to be fine with living in Israel (if you know the Israelis would stop persecuting them and considering it virtue for Jewish children to spit on Christians and stop using the police to oppress them and restrict them).
The Jews in Israel are not exactly interested in all this freedom of religion and let's all be equal business.
Israel was founded as a Jewish Homeland, so you know...
If only we were as interested in guarding our borders and vetting who we let into the country as Israel is, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in...
But of course we are a a Goy country and well...
Palestine doesn’t want to be a part of Israel. That much is abundantly clear. They want their own ethnostate with Israel gone. Arabs have the right to be citizens in Israel and vote if they want but many choose not to. A two state solution would look like this if I were Israel. Borders are the same and Palestine has its own government and is responsible for its own infrastructure. No military allowed until time has passed that demonstrates a sincere desire to live in peace. And Israel agrees to stop all activities that prevents prosperity in Palestine and agrees to never intervene with politics involving Palestine. Basically agree to leave each other alone.
West Bank settlers. And see how they act. Or how about we talk about the Palestinian Christians who have been getting bombed in their places of worship during all this? But we only care about that when Muslims do it, don't we?
There are ~7 million people in Gaza and the West bank who cannot vote. There's also racial segregation in the West Bank as well. And Israelis even in green-line Israel weaponize harvest and building permitting processes to destroy Bedouin villages and generally oppress Arabs within green-line Israel. Hence why Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and even the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem have all written extensively on why Israel is an apartheid state. And why the ICJ two weeks ago declared they're in violation of article 3 of the UN charter, which is specifically about racial segregation and/or apartheid. My guess is you think they're liberal whackjobs who are lying though so I doubt we'll make much progress there.
October 7th was a collection of war crimes on the part of Hamas. It's actually really easy to be intellectually consistent about war crimes and human rights abuses. That way I don't have to do mental gymnastics excusing a preferred side.
Are the people of Gaza citizens of Israel? If not then they don’t vote in Israeli elections. And Palestinians rejoiced and celebrated with great joy at the massacre of Jews on October 7. Sure they are innocent.
They're classed as "Occupied" by the international court system, so that logic did not work in their ICJ case about the apartheid. I'm glad you and Joe Biden are on the same wavelength here but the rest of the world doesn't seem to agree. Countries like the UK are already contemplating suspending arms sales to Israel because of the ICJ ruling (UK also withdrew its objection to the Israel genocide case in the ICJ). And since Israel depends economically on foreign investment from Europe/US as well as their support militarily/diplomatically, it makes their lives more difficult. It also signals future issues since, of the European countries, the UK positions itself most closely with the US on foreign policy. So them breaking from the US on this is a big issue.
I think the irony of it all is that reflexively defending Israel any time this stuff comes up is worse in the long-term for Israel. Apartheid states do not generally do well in the long term due to international isolation.
Okay so we're back to "and even if something is happening, the civilians deserve it". Just start with that. It saves you a lot of typing to just say you don't care if the bad things people say are happening are true.
Why should I actually care about any of this beyond the taxes that will have to be increased to pay off all this proxy ware spending? How does any of this benefit Joe Sixpack in the US? And don't say "security". Israel either couldn't or didn't keep themselves secure enough to prevent October, so I have ZERO expectation that the same methodology is going to do anything for America.
Other than constantly giving them money as a welfare baby like Ukraine, how exactly are they benefitting the US so much that we should be frothing at the mouth to assist them in this madness? And why does Israel think we need to take Palestinians in? Not our problem.
And while I am on it, why in the hell do we care about Hamas so much that we give them shit tons of money too? What are they doing for us? Why do we care there either?
Other than constantly giving them money as a welfare baby like Ukraine, how exactly are they benefitting the US so much that we should be frothing at the mouth to assist them in this madness? And why does Israel think we need to take Palestinians in? Not our problem.
And while I am on it, why in the hell do we care about Hamas so much that we give them shit tons of money too? What are they doing for us? Why do we care there either?
Unless you have religious reasons related to Israel, you shouldn't.
It doesn't. It has a lot of negatives though. But "America First" people generally make an exception for Israel.
They're an anchor that's constantly trying to drag us into war with Iran (for at least the last 15 years). And also played a significant part in getting us to invade Iraq.
They expect us to clean up their messes. Hence why they're trying to start wars with both Hezbollah and Iran right now. Because they know we'll take care of it.
Any money to Hamas was done as a favor to Israel. Hamas was useful to them because it has political differences with the PLO (government of the West Bank). So as long as Hamas is in power, Gaza and the West Bank can't have a unified government. That's also why Israel begged Qatar to give Hamas money and why they propped up Hamas' rise to power.
If you want to know why you should care, just go look up all the things the Israeli PM said about the USA in his home backyard barbecue.
Then go look at what all the "Jewish" Global Elites have said
Then go look at what all the great Jewish Rabbis actually preached about how they see Goys and this country as property / servants.
You should care because you and your kind and your kids and your country will be used up and wrung out until there is no value left and then sold off.
Go check how many of your congress critters and Senate Slime are citizens of Israel
Go check how many people in the executive branch are citizens of Israel
Go check how many people that are the "aides" that actually do the work, write the bills and such are citizens of Israel
Go check how many of the "influence" groups for politics and policy in this country are primarily run by citizens of Israel.
Then you'll start to understand why you should not only care, but care VERY, VERY much.
You think Americans are running America currently? ...
Yes, this I already know. Its no secret that our legislators have been infiltrated. Its also no secret that Israel gets as much money and arms out of us as they can. About that I do care quite a bit. Until we get lobbyists out of Washington it isn't going to change. My post was limited strictly to this particular conflict and its ever-growing scope that seems to add to our deficit and looks to have us getting involved kinetically soon.
At some point it has to be admitted that we are acting as little more than Israel's attack dog and we are footing the bill. This should not be.
Regarding this, I put that out there as a rhetorical question as a way to inform those who didn't know this. We helped set their leadership up in Qatar. IOW, no matter what is being said in Washington, the US is effectively opposing a two state solution by funding the destabilization that Hamas brings to table.
There is a simple solution…but it’s not an easy one. Conflicts such as this have existed since the beginning of recorded history. They only end with the complete and total victory of one side over the other; usually with the genocide of the losing side.
We all have blinders on… Agree there are no “good guys” in this fight, but there is one side that won’t continue to kill their neighbors after a win.
The question we need to ask ourselves and answer honestly is: Who do I and the rest of the world want to co-exist with after the conflict is eventually settled, one way or another? Aside from the MIC bastards pushing conflict for profit since the beginning of time of course.
Folks are absolutely blinded by decades of propaganda , US Israel alliance is absolutely one way street , No israelis ever fought alongide US forces ,fuckin IRGC fought more side by side US servicemembers than Israelis ever did (Iranian and US troops defended Bagdad from ISIS). Israel is also second only to China in industrial espionage in US.
Like it or not Israel with complicity of politicans they own in US has repeatedly sent US servicemen to fight and die for them and will do so again and again. ( Lebanon,Iraq,Syria,Libya.....) and on some ocassions they actively kill US service members (USS Liberty)
Doing so right now, engaging all over ME with 100% guarantee US will be left holding the bag when things go sideways , unlike popular lore , Israeli military capability for a conventional war is negligible, yes they can conduct a couple of air strikes as long as US finances and supplies them , but they can not really fight a mayor war with anyone that can actually fight back. Palestinians are practicaly unarmed both in Gaza and West bank, limited to AKs and home made RPG.
Like it or not Israel with complicity of politicans they own in US has repeatedly sent US servicemen to fight and die for them and will do so again and again. ( Lebanon,Iraq,Syria,Libya.....) and on some ocassions they actively kill US service members (USS Liberty)
Doing so right now, engaging all over ME with 100% guarantee US will be left holding the bag when things go sideways , unlike popular lore , Israeli military capability for a conventional war is negligible, yes they can conduct a couple of air strikes as long as US finances and supplies them , but they can not really fight a mayor war with anyone that can actually fight back. Palestinians are practicaly unarmed both in Gaza and West bank, limited to AKs and home made RPG.
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Your answer to that is the country who is currently trying to start (and drag the US into) wars with both Hezbollah and Iran right now? Unless you mean the Palestinians, sorry if I misinterpreted things if so.
No, and agree with you wholeheartedly on that point.
I loathe Israeli politics, and in particular can’t stand their meddling on a global scale, but fear the lunatics that are marinating their citizens in hate, and training their children to be suicide bombers from the time they can walk, even more.
I can deal with someone, or an entity, that’s trying to manipulate you/us emotionally, and control us financially via other means. There’s no way to deal with someone who acts purely on irrational hatred based on some random physiological trait like ethnic origin.
I think we all need to take several steps back and realize all of us here are on the same side…we just see the issue through different perspectives.
I get that. I just think Israel's side of all of this gets whitewashed and people drastically underestimate both their current levels of extremism as well as the even more extremist trajectory their domestic and international politics are on. Largely due to shifting internal demographics. Worse, they sabotage OUR relations with countries in the region. The new Iranian president got elected on a platform of increased relations with the United States. So Israel assassinated Haniyeh in Iran's capital on the day of the new president's inauguration to humiliate him and sabotage public sentiment for reaching out to the US.
That's word for word what Israel is doing (and has been doing) in regards to the Palestinians for decades. Hence the apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and terrorist attacks by West Bank settlers. I mean the minister of national security, Ben Gvir, is literally a convicted racist terrorist. Israel just had angry mobs (including masked soldiers and members of their Knesset, which is their parliament) riot and take over courts/military bases because 10 Israeli soldiers were arrested for gangraping a palestinian prisoner. And in the Knesset they were debating whether it's legal for that gangrape to happen (not debating WHETHER it happened). By the way no one was arrested for being part of those mobs breaking into military bases. And that was just in the last few days. They're way more extreme than people in the US realize.
Again, there are no “good guys” in this one… But at some point it has to end.
History shows us that this will only end one way, and we need to start thinking about how we should deal with, and if we can live with the eventual victor.
History shows us that this will only end one way, and we need to start thinking about how we should deal with, and if we can live with the eventual victor.
If you aren’t a citizen of that country, you shouldn’t have a vote. See USA for example. I don’t want non citizens voting here and I want closed borders. Do the Palestinians want to be Israeli? Do they desire citizenship? If not, then they can go pound sand. I don’t care what the international court system says. It’s all political BS. About as useful as NATO.
And let’s just ignore all of the suicide bombing, hijacking, massacres and murders put forth by the Palestinians over the years. The Palestinians are brought up from infancy to hate and want to kill Jews. Let’s not forget the Infantadas and how they want to globalize it. Seems like they are succeeding based on some of these responses.
Politics are what keep Israel involved in the international system instead of isolated like end-stage apartheid South Africa. So whether or not you think it does, it matters.
I think the reason why it rings hollow when you say this is you don't actually care about these things because they're wrong. As evidenced by your responses here. You only care sometimes when the people doing the things aren't on your chosen team.
Which ever way they spin it Israel ops in Iran are done by Iranians , there are many Iranian groups not sympathetic to mullahs and paying and equipping some to conduct ops against the folk inside Iran is no problem
remember US relocated whole Iranian terror group MEK , from Iraq and is currently hosting them on Uncle Sams dime in Albania just for such ops , Bolton , Pence and co are makin paid speeches at their rallies and more often than not much of the crowd at the rally is paid to.(famous Paris rally full of East European turists that got 3 day Paris vacation paid to show up and pretend they are dissident Iranians. Same way Ukrainian nazis were moved to UK and Canada post WW2 to serve as an indigenous talent pool to recruit agents for work in Soviet Union .
Diary Of An MKO Rent-A-Crowd Demonstrator
Kyrgyz student Alina Alymkulova recounts how she was recruited to travel from Prague to Paris to attend a rally for the Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MKO), an Iranian opposition movement in exile.
www.rferl.org
I will say this, the one thing NATO has done for the good is that there have been no conflicts between member states since NATO’s inception. That’s not insignificant.
But yeah, spot on…
If you read the ancient scriptures from a number of sources, pretty much it never ends until titular Diety comes down and takes over.
Yup. There are no good guys but I can say that there are no allies with Muslim countries. They all hate us and want us gone. Even the ones that lives here hate America and the west. just look at all of the destruction of monuments and burning of flags at these “protests.” Also, look at what is happening in Europe. It’s coming here too and we are allowing it.
I have no team but it appears your support terrorism. Good on you. I actually think Israel isn’t our friend either and they only care about themselves. Our alliance with Israel seems to only benefit one of us. But I am also tired of supporting and defending countries that outright hate us and our values which applies to Muslim countries. And it’s not enough that they have ME to terrorize, they want the entire west to either accept or acquiesce or be destroyed.
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