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Their 300wm 195 ELDM has a SD of 35. Pass.Dealing with their “match grade” ammo and bullets has caused me to lose some faith in Hornady this year.
Yeah maybe instead of making video telling everyone how much they know, they should focus on getting their QC in line. Then they could try being honest with their customers when they change their loads.Their 300wm 195 ELDM has a SD of 35. Pass.
So Bias….. makes sense.By far their largest profit comes from factory ammo. Why would they try to persuade the reloader that they can make better ammo. Yes they sell equipment and components, but it’s a small part of their market. If they convince people to reload, they will quickly determine that there’s better components and equipment out there than what Hornady offers.
Bottom line, they have no interest in saying better ammo can be made than factory ammo. Much less guiding you to do so.
By far their largest profit comes from factory ammo. Why would they try to persuade the reloader that they can make better ammo. Yes they sell equipment and components, but it’s a small part of their market. If they convince people to reload, they will quickly determine that there’s better components and equipment out there than what Hornady offers.
Bottom line, they have no interest in saying better ammo can be made than factory ammo. Much less guiding you to do so.
I’d like to see Hornady do some large volume accuracy testing of their brass vs Alpha, Lapua, Peterson, et al. Let’s establish their brass is consistent enough to resolve the minutiae, before we use it to evaluate techniques.
What is Hornady using to make their conclusions? There is a substantial difference between a Mann accuracy device and a “mountain” contour barrel.
Just out of curiosity what is your reloading process? I agree with a lot if not most of the things you and a few others say here and in other threads but I also disagree with a few things.Also, anyone can perform similar steps to see for themselves what performance benefits (if any) are provided by additional reloading steps.
I bet if more people tested this kind of stuff themselves, they would start to really question the necessity of some reloading steps.
To much myth and lore in reloading.
Just out of curiosity what is your reloading process? I agree with a lot if not most of the things you and a few others say here and in other threads but I also disagree with a few things.
Lets say you just spun on a new barrel do you shoot X amount of rounds before load development? Or start load development from round 1?
Do you play with charge weight or just throw and go?
Do you play with seating depth once you find a charge weight?
Do you believe you can make a load shoot better by adjusting one or both of the above?
And I am genuinely interested and not trying to be a dick, I have used just about every load development method there is, I have also done just about every case and bullet prep there is but am always looking for a quicker and/or easier way to get to the same place, I personally do not like reloading like most for me its a necessary evil.
Yup. And as I've said on many occasions, it comes down to and is really all about repeatability.Also, I should add that you should do what works for you.
I'm not the arbiter of truth on this subject (or any subject for that matter). I know enough about statistics and the scientific method to understand that reloaders are egregious offenders of not following the scientific methodology and don't understand testing methodologies. We typically rely solely on poor observational data with extremely limited data sets. From that, we make conclusions that we can't possibly make. Conclusions that aren't repeatable in further testing and analysis.
Another part of shooting is having confidence in your system, including your ammo. If additional steps makes you more confident in your ammo, then that alone makes it worth it to do those steps, even if the performance gains are only perceived. If neck turning on an AUTODOD makes you more confident in your ammo, then by all means, go for it. There's something to be said about the intangible benefit of having confidence in your system.
Yup. And as I've said on many occasions, it comes down to and is really all about repeatability.
The worst part about their podcast is listening to Seth act like he knows what he’s talking about. Bro just says random terms and prays they stick.
And yes you’re allowed to use small samples. The whole point of statistics is to account for the uncertainty in small samples.
I’m not suggesting that they are. I’m suggesting they’re trying to keep people who are buying their factory ammo from reloading by implying there’s nothing to gain.I don't think Hornady is doing this to persuade reloaders to buy factory ammo.
They aren't that stupid.
I’m not suggesting that they are. I’m suggesting they’re trying to keep people who are buying their factory ammo from reloading by implying there’s nothing to gain.
I see what you are saying now.
The issue I have with that assertion is that Hornady also sells reloading gear. From components to dies and presses and everything in between. They likely have a larger reloading selection of reloading gear than any other brand.
I don't think they would cannibalize their own reloading market in order to just sell more factory ammo. I really don't.
Plus, Applied Ballistics own testing mirrors a lot of what the Hornady crew has found.
I wasn't signed into youtube, can see that messing with things.What's the secret fu to get the video to show?
We are very close to the same I honestly thought you did a lot more the way you talk about reloading...I am not bragging or anything like that but I have shot out a lot of barrels...stopped counting at 33 probable 38-40 now....when I first started reloading 20+yrs ago I jumped on line and started reading and more so about how the BR guys did things.For reloading, my process has become fairly simple.
I start off with good components - like Berger Hybrids and Lapua brass, and use powders that are known produce good results in the specific cartridges I reload for, like H4350 for 6.5 cm and H4895 for 6BRA.
My reloading steps are as follows:
1. Tumble brass in rice
2. Anneal with AMP
3. FL size brass, bumping shoulder approx ~2 thou and applying 2-3 thou neck tension. I lube each case with Imperial sizing wax, and after sizing I wipe off excess lube by hand with a clean shop rag.
4. Giraud trimmer
5. Prime with CPS primer, on the deepest setting
6. Charge on Autotrickler V2 w/V3 board and IP trickler. I aim to weigh to the kernel and get every charge weight within +/- 0.02 grains. (Much harder with large kernels like N570, in which you have to settle for a larger variance)
7. Seat bullets - I typically start 10-20 thou off the lands with Berger Hybrids, and just leave the seater in that setting throughout the life of the barrel. Chasing lands seems to be a waste of time, at least with Hybrids.
With a new barrel, the first 100-150 rounds is barrel break in. Near the end of that, as velocity starts to settle out, I do a ladder test to see what approximate charge weights get what velocity, and where pressure may be. I have velocity targets that I want to achieve with each cartridge - it's somewhat arbitrary, but I try to leave a bit of room below the pressure ceiling. I usually pick a charge weight that gives the approx. velocity I want, to the nearest 0.5 grain (i.e. 40.5 versus 40.3).
Right now these are the velocities that I am shooting:
- 6.5 Creedmoor with 140 Hybrids: 2830 fps
- 6BRA with 105 Hybrids: 2900 fps
- .300NM with 220 LRHT: 2930 fps
I don't do bullet depth seating tests, as through further exploration I've found them to be somewhat useless. At least when shooting with small sample sizes. Extensive testing with different charge weights over numerous days has also shown that specific charge weights don't perform any better when averaged out over numerous days and conditions. Yes, you don't want to be going too slow or too fast, but otherwise specific charge weights don't matter - at least with proven powders per cartridge.
Remember, their "match" grade ammo is massed produced to fit in lots of different chambers and be lawyer safe. Reloading brings out the best of a rifle/handgun as all have their variances in barrels, chambers, etc. are adjusted and accounted for.Dealing with their “match grade” ammo and bullets has caused me to lose some faith in Hornady this year.
I don’t hate it but I sure would like to do less of it and shoot more.I like to shoot. I hate reloading.
Yes I am aware of that. However recently (according to them, after folks bitched) they had some powder sourcing issues and changed the loads.Remember, their "match" grade ammo is massed produced to fit in lots of different chambers and be lawyer safe. Reloading brings out the best of a rifle/handgun as all have their variances in barrels, chambers, etc. are adjusted and accounted for.
I will say this. I had a 300prc built a few years ago strictly for hunting, Defiance hunter action with Proof carbon barrel , light weight for pack in hunts. Anyway, I got some Hornady 212gr ELDX factory ammo for it. It shot outstanding! As in stack them top of each other good, have to admit I was shocked. It shot so well that I decided to not even try to work up a hunting load for that rifle. I do believe that to be the exception rather than the rule.Yes I am aware of that. However recently (according to them, after folks bitched) they had some powder sourcing issues and changed the loads.
This resulted in *much* lower fps numbers than on the box and what people were seeing normally from previous lots. They did this with no change on the box. So this wasn’t just a case of people taking the boxes numbers for granted. This was a case of people who have shot this ammo and suddenly were saying “what the heck it’s 100-150 FPS lower all of a sudden”???
They finally came clean. They should’ve just been upfront about it.
I was breaking in a new rifle that was getting significantly less FPS than my buddy’s new gun from the same manufacturer with the 4 inch shorter barrel. I was getting 6.5 cm speeds out of a 6.5 PRC. I thought my rifle had suddenly decided it was a leftist and was identifying as a 6.5 CM???
This caused me to call the manufacturer and say “what’s the problem with this barrel”???
A box from a different location with a different older lot number brought my FPS up to where it was expected to be …..mystery solved.
I am also seeing significant ES that I believe the weight variance in their bullets is causing. I’m going to try some weight sorting.
I like Hornady for the most part, but I do think it’s a little pompous of them when they do these podcast telling everybody what’s what.
When most of the other manufactures were falling on their face and supply was drying up, Hornady managed to keep bullets flowing, and I was grateful for that. Also, the pricing is really good on their bullets. But I guess you get what you pay for. Availability is my biggest concern. I want shoot .
So certainly not all bad…..
I don't truly hate it anymore. I truly hated when I trimmed every firing with one of those Lee finger torcher things and chamfered and deburred with their other.I don’t hate it but I sure would like to do less of it and shoot more.
1) deprime
2) dry tumble walnut media treated 4-5 hrs
3) anneal every 3d firing
4) size w/ bushing die
5) mandrel
6) dry tumble 1 hr
7) Trim, when I feel the need
8) Chamfer neck in and out, brush pockets
9) prime w/ 20th century hand primer
10) throw charges w/ Chargemaster supreme
11) seat bullets
That is pretty much it.
I am using a Frankford Arsenal platinum case prep which seems to serve me well. Upgrading the cutters is a must though.I don't truly hate it anymore. I truly hated when I trimmed every firing with one of those Lee finger torcher things and chamfered and deburred with their other.
I use wft and an rcbs prep center now. On top of that cutting out anneal, trim, chamfer, and debur every firing really made the task less tedious.
Shooting a lot more 6 arc, 6.5 Grendel and 20 practical with ball powders. I have just been throwing powders by volume and going to town. I like it better than the charge master whirring away but it no works so good with most extruded powders.
By far their largest profit comes from factory ammo. Why would they try to persuade the reloader that they can make better ammo. Yes they sell equipment and components, but it’s a small part of their market. If they convince people to reload, they will quickly determine that there’s better components and equipment out there than what Hornady offers.
Bottom line, they have no interest in saying better ammo can be made than factory ammo. Much less guiding you to do so.
What is Hornady using to make their conclusions? There is a substantial difference between a Mann accuracy device and a “mountain” contour barrel.
You mean the chamfer and debur cutters on em? What did you upgrade with? I have a giraud but if I'm not actually trimming I also use the FA prep station a lotI am using a Frankford Arsenal platinum case prep which seems to serve me well. Upgrading the cutters is a must though.
Going to VLD chamfer cutter on the RCBS made a diffrence.I am using a Frankford Arsenal platinum case prep which seems to serve me well. Upgrading the cutters is a must though.
I just upgraded the cutter to a carbide and what a difference both in ease of use and dimensional consistency.You mean the chamfer and debur cutters on em? What did you upgrade with? I have a giraud but if I'm not actually trimming I also use the FA prep station a lot
I think the Frankford comes with a VLD cutter, but I could be mistaken. It’s pretty long and a steep angle. I’m looking for a carbide replacement.Going to VLD chamfer cutter on the RCBS made a diffrence.
Can't see the video. But I tend to keep youtube on in the background at work.
I almost made a threat talking about this very thing. It seems the guys on those hornady podcasts think reloading should be for getting groups roughly about 1 moa and that's it. I laughed at almost everything they said. I am guessing this was supposed to be a link to that?
Found this in another thread:You mean the chamfer and debur cutters on em? What did you upgrade with? I have a giraud but if I'm not actually trimming I also use the FA prep station a lot
Yeah it's pretty steep. I've looked around many times but never know if it would be better or not.I think the Frankford comes with a VLD cutter, but I could be mistaken. It’s pretty long and a steep angle. I’m looking for a carbide replacement.
Hmmm?? Am not sure to what extent you're thinking that seating depth doesn't matter.I haven't listened to the podcast... but I also don't think seating depth matters (what matters is them all ending up the same). Use a legit sample size and you'll see the same thing.
Guys can use small sample sizes to form opinions and make decisions if they want, but then they're just seeing what they want to see.
Yeah....because physics has changed light years since 1965. We've even landed on the Moon with men and shit since then.Hmm, one paper, from 1965... I guess it's settled then.
Don't let the truth get in the way of what you believe.