Subsonic hunting

[snowplow]

Guys, let's talk generally about subsonic deer hunting under 100 yards. So far the cartridges on my radar are (limited to .35 cal):

6.8 spc?
300 blk
308 win
8.6 blk
338 fed*
358 win*
350 leg
Others?

Which would you choose as most terminally effective and why?

Also I've heard 308 is inconsistent subsonic. What does that really mean? So would you never try to hunt with it? Sometimes it just doesn't go bang? Or accuracy is terrible? Could you elaborate?

 

[db2000]

There’s threads on this.
In short, why use sub when you can use super. A few folks have tried to justify it and a few times they actually or kind of did.
.308 is a very large case. Fill capacity makes a difference in condos and velocities. It will go bang just won’t be consistent potentially because of the low amount of powder to large case size. Look at it and look at size of 300 Blk case

 

[Supersubes]

You can add the 338 Arc to your list. Seems like it and the 300 blk have the most appropriate case and bullet size for the task. 300 and 200 grain bullets respectively. 300 blk seems like the easy button, even if you want it in a bolt gun.

 

[nikonNUT]

My boss shot a doe with a sub-sonic .45-70 this weekend. It was VERY effective!

 

[roostercogburn98]

Bullet performance makes the difference. Find a bullet that works terminally at lower velocities and narrow your list down one step at a time.

I’ve been sitting with my 10.5 inch 300 BO this week, but I’m shooting 110g supers from it. Shots will be 50 yards or less, so I’m not worried about bullet performance as much as shot placement and angle the shot will enter the animal.

I could have taken the 7-08, but seems like overkill for such a short shot.

 

[st1650]

You forgot 450BM, 45-70 and 458 soccoms, the best 3 for subsonic terminal performance.

I’ve been in the subsonic hunting game decades before it was a marketing gimmick.
Any animal, even a black bear, will die if you shot it between the eyes with a subsonic 175gr SMK.
That doesn’t mean it’s the best choice or smart but when you think about subsonic hunting, think about your effective range, ballistic drop and how accurate you are at estimating ranges. Anything past 75y you’ll have to dial approx 1 mil for every 25y so there’s a significant difference between 115 and 140yards and you’ll most likely need a range finder with integrated ballistic if you plan to get in that sort of game. Also accuracy isn’t linear, just because your load groups 1/2 at 50yards, doesn’t meant it’ll do 1.5in at 150y, you might find that you have a 6in vertical if your velocity SD isn’t tight.

When I was hunting with a 300BLK, I was using SMK240 initially and never lost a game. They don’t expand but they do yaw with a 1:8 twist.
Then LeHigh came out with their expensive but very effective 194 ME and 174 CF which also I used and all my shots were head or neck shot, DRT. My furthest one was 125M with the 174, I think I was using a VX6HD 1-6 with the .mil turrets back then.

Nowadays I’m using a 450BM with the 395 SubX. I was holding off because there were no good cheap heavy subsonic expanding bullets until Hornady released their 2 years ago.
I think it’s the best caliber for inside 125 yards but it doesn’t have as good ballistics as 308 and 338 subs past that range.

If I was a total newbie looking for my first experience with hunting subsonic I’d definitely wait a little bit and go with the 338 ARC, it’s an easy turn key system, decent factory ammo, doesn’t need a large frame AR and 300gr will give a bit more energy than 200-240.

That being said, I also found the factory ammo to be absolute dogshit for long range subs as far as velocity consistency, plan to reload.

And if you don’t want to wait another year for the 338 ARC stuff to get in stock, 300BLK with LeHigh or Maker is perfectly fine for deer sized game as long as you know your limits. Watch out for the 190 SubX, it is very accurate but won’t expand as well as the LeHigh and Maker.

Finally, Q’ Kevin is a huge gigantic sodomite queer so I strongly suggest staying away from the inferior 8.6 creed and the retarded 1:3 twist.

 

[snowplow]

There’s threads on this.
In short, why use sub when you can use super. A few folks have tried to justify it and a few times they actually or kind of did.
.308 is a very large case. Fill capacity makes a difference in condos and velocities. It will go bang just won’t be consistent potentially because of the low amount of powder to large case size. Look at it and look at size of 300 Blk case

Let's presume you're not using a sub when you can use a super.

I have observed the size difference between a 308 and 300 blk lol. I'm asking what it translates to. Let's say 300 is perfect. But you don't have the rifle for instance. 308s inconsistency looks like always going bang but maybe 5 moa group vs should be 1 moa???? So at 50 yards you would have to live with a 2.5" group?? Just trying to get an idea. And also if it might be worth buying a new rifle and scope for instance.

 

[FuhQ]

Guys, let's talk generally about subsonic deer hunting under 100 yards. So far the cartridges on my radar are (limited to .35 cal):

6.8 spc?
300 blk
308 win
8.6 blk
338 fed*
358 win*
350 leg
Others?

Which would you choose as most terminally effective and why?

Also I've heard 308 is inconsistent subsonic. What does that really mean? So would you never try to hunt with it? Sometimes it just doesn't go bang? Or accuracy is terrible? Could you elaborate?

Personal unpopular opinion, since everyone wants the newest hotness... But, Inside of 100, it really doesn't matter what you hit them with, it's only moving 1050-1085 FPS, the bullet you use will be more important.

I say go with the most efficient of the sub cartridges with heavy expandable subs... .300 BLK with Hornady 190 Sub-X or Makers bullets.

 

[jbuck88]

After playing with subsonic rounds. I'd say find one that can shoot pistol bullets. My personal favorite is the 77/44. However if your limited to 35cal, I'd look hard for a 77/357.

Bullets are designed to expand and those velocities and do so very reliably. Something most all rifle bullets can't do.

 

[FuhQ]

Let's presume you're not using a sub when you can use a super.

I have observed the size difference between a 308 and 300 blk lol. I'm asking what it translates to. Let's say 300 is perfect. But you don't have the rifle for instance. 308s inconsistency looks like always going bang but maybe 5 moa group vs should be 1 moa???? So at 50 yards you would have to live with a 2.5" group?? Just trying to get an idea. And also if it might be worth buying a new rifle and scope for instance.

Fact is, doesn't matter the engine size, when you castrate one to equal the other... A .308 Win uses the same .30 caliber bullets as the .300 BLK, and if they're both running the same bullets at the same speed, use the more efficient cartridge design. A .30 caliber bullet from a .308 going 1085 FPS is the EXACT same impact, velocity, KE, etc... when pushed from a .300 BLK case. It's all a numbers game, and most of the time, it's all personal bias, instead of actually breaking down the numbers into real world physics.

 

[PappyM3]

There’s threads on this.
In short, why use sub when you can use super. A few folks have tried to justify it and a few times they actually or kind of did….

More pleasant to shoot and still better efficacy than a bow when using modern expanding copper solids.

I also think counties with straight wall rifle restrictions should add subsonic cartridges to the authorization. Subs ain’t going far with a level shot.

 

[snowplow]

Fact is, doesn't matter the engine size, when you castrate one to equal the other... A .308 Win uses the same .30 caliber bullets as the .300 BLK, and if they're both running the same bullets at the same speed, use the more efficient cartridge design. A .30 caliber bullet from a .308 going 1085 FPS is the EXACT same impact, velocity, KE, etc... when pushed from a .300 BLK case. It's all a numbers game, and most of the time, it's all personal bias, instead of actually breaking down the numbers into real world physics.

I'm totally with you on that. Let me restate this part of the question. 300 blackout and 308 subsonics are the same. 308 subsonics have a reputation of being less consistent. If you already have a short barrel 308, would you consider running subs in it to hunt with at 50 to 75 yd? Or is it so bad that you would buy a new rifle and scope in 300 blackout? It sounds like 308s always go bang. So I'm assuming this just translates into a larger group size. How big are we talking? For instance, if a 308 has an inconsistent 5" group at 50 yards, but a 300 blk has 1/2 group at 50 I'm not buying a new rifle. I'll just shoot my 308 because I'm shooting 50 to 75 yd so it might be a 5-7" group. Which is perfectly minute of deer vitals. Just a scenario to give you an idea of what I'm thinking.

 

[wvfarrier]

I have killed deer, black bear,coyote and turkey with 300blk subs. All were within 75 yards.

 

[FuhQ]

I'm totally with you on that. Let me restate this part of the question. 300 blackout and 308 subsonics are the same. 308 subsonics have a reputation of being less consistent. If you already have a short barrel 308, would you consider running subs in it to hunt with at 50 to 75 yd? Or is it so bad that you would buy a new rifle and scope in 300 blackout? It sounds like 308s always go bang. So I'm assuming this just translates into a larger group size. How big are we talking? For instance, if a 308 has an inconsistent 5" group at 50 yards, but a 300 blk has 1/2 group at 50 I'm not buying a new rifle. I'll just shoot my 308 because I'm shooting 50 to 75 yd so it might be a 5-7" group. Which is perfectly minute of deer vitals. Just a scenario to give you an idea of what I'm thinking.

I've been building my own .308 Win subs for almost 15 years, long before I ever had a can, because I had buddies who had them. I used to make subs for them. Use the right primers, powders, and process, and you won't need to do anything special to the cases, you won't need to drill flash holes, or anything you saw online 10+ years ago. And you also won't have any real issues, as long as you don't

I use TrailBoss powder since 10gr fills up a lot of the .308 Win case to give a consistent ignition, and I've NEVER had a hang fire, or any issues. Also, I use Federal "FC" .308 Win brass. Federal brass is shitty, but it does great in low-pressure rounds, like subs. It's actually very consistent. And it's cheap and plentiful. I've picked up probably 500+ free 1x fired cases from the range that people left in the brass bucket just over the last year or 2 alone. I bring them home, decap them, sonic clean them, FL size them, and then polish them, and they're ready to load, and FL sized so they're good to go in any of my .308 Win's. I even make some 168 subs, because they shoot great in my slower twist barrels (5R 11.25 twist), and will shoot very accurately. I've shot sub-MOA groups @ 100 with them, and take them out to 200 & 300 yards on a regular basis. Granted, they were not expandable sub hunting bullets, they were target bullets, but they still shot REALLY well.

 

[db2000]

More pleasant to shoot and still better efficacy than a bow when using modern expanding copper solids.

I also think counties with straight wall rifle restrictions should add subsonic cartridges to the authorization. Subs ain’t going far with a level shot.

“More pleasant to shoot” ?!?
It’s one or two shots to kill an animal presumably. Who gives a shit about how pleasant to shoot it is. You now fall into the category of those that fail to justify it.

 

[FuhQ]

“More pleasant to shoot” ?!?
It’s one or two shots to kill an animal presumably. Who gives a shit about how pleasant to shoot it is. You now fall into the category of those that fail to justify it.

I think he might be talking about noise level being more pleasant to shoot...

 

[db2000]

I think he might be talking about noise level being more pleasant to shoot...

Yeah and who care with 1-2 shots frankly. Just saying. Inside 50 yards I agree it doesn’t matter frankly if you’re not a hack.

 

[snowplow]

Does anyone mess around with the 338 fed or 358 win? Presumably if a 308 works it seems these should work easier? They seem awesome supersonic and in short barrels and l was thinking for subsonic use since the bullet is so much bigger you could presumably load it with more powder while keeping it subsonic and thereby get more energy and help with the low capacity consistency issue. I don't know if there's bullets to do what lm saying but that's my train of thought.

 

[PappyM3]

“More pleasant to shoot” ?!?
It’s one or two shots to kill an animal presumably. Who gives a shit about how pleasant to shoot it is. You now fall into the category of those that fail to justify it.

Not everyone is you.

I won’t hunt with subs because I can’t have silencers anyway. But the fact remains that just because you don’t think the more mild shooting experience is worth it in the trade space, doesn’t change the fact that it is a real factor that some may consider in the trade space. Such as those hunting with kids, or those just trying to keep noise pollution down in general. Or those trying to take out as many pigs as they can before they scatter.

Modern expanding sub bullets are extremely lethal, so there is no argument about it being unethical.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Not everyone is you.

I won’t hunt with subs because I can’t have silencers anyway. But the fact remains that just because you don’t think the more mild shooting experience is worth it in the trade space, doesn’t change the fact that it is a real factor that some may consider in the trade space. Such as those hunting with kids, or those just trying to keep noise pollution down in general. Or those trying to take out as many pigs as they can before they scatter.

Modern expanding sub bullets are extremely lethal, so there is no argument about it being unethical.

I’m saddened you are restricted from the joy of subsonic and suppressors.

Once I had that combo it’s all I want to shoot.

 

[db2000]

Not everyone is you.

I won’t hunt with subs because I can’t have silencers anyway. But the fact remains that just because you don’t think the more mild shooting experience is worth it in the trade space, doesn’t change the fact that it is a real factor that some may consider in the trade space. Such as those hunting with kids, or those just trying to keep noise pollution down in general. Or those trying to take out as many pigs as they can before they scatter.

Modern expanding sub bullets are extremely lethal, so there is no argument about it being unethical.

I don’t really care what you hunt with frankly.
This just sounds soft AF but whatever. Raise your kids however you like, it’s America.
There’s always an argument of it’s unethical, I’m just not making it. You’ve been on here long enough to know better.

 

[wvfarrier]

Lehigh Defense 176 grain Controlled Fracturing. 54 yards. 1020 fps (ish).
40 yards recovery.

 

[st1650]

308 subs. I don’t see the problem.

View attachment 8529804


View attachment 8529805

That's been my experience as well with Trailboss and Lapua brass.

 

[PappyM3]

I don’t really care what you hunt with frankly.
This just sounds soft AF but whatever. Raise your kids however you like, it’s America.
There’s always an argument of it’s unethical, I’m just not making it. You’ve been on here long enough to know better.

And yet… there are still legitimate reasons people choose to hunt with subs. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

 

[db2000]

And yet… there are still legitimate reasons people choose to hunt with subs. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

I never said I don’t like them. I never said they don’t have a place. I shoot subs all the time and suppressed almost exclusively.
You can’t comprehend what’s written apparently. You also make a lot of assumptions so….

 

[Mike Casselton]

Not everyone is you.

I won’t hunt with subs because I can’t have silencers anyway. But the fact remains that just because you don’t think the more mild shooting experience is worth it in the trade space, doesn’t change the fact that it is a real factor that some may consider in the trade space. Such as those hunting with kids, or those just trying to keep noise pollution down in general. Or those trying to take out as many pigs as they can before they scatter.

Modern expanding sub bullets are extremely lethal, so there is no argument about it being unethical.

You live in a place with lots of pigs, but you can't have a supressor?

Wut??
That don't make no damn sense Billy.

 

[TheBigCountry]

I done kilt quiet a few of them thar critters with some 22 subs

 

[hlee]

220 gr bullet at 1050 fps is basically pistol bullet weight at pistol bullet velocity. Expect approximately pistol bullet efficacy. My sub sonic hunting is kept to distances I would feel comfortable shooting an animal with a pistol. Basically archery range. But then again, I’m a charter member of the “get closer” school of hunting.

 

[PappyM3]

I never said I don’t like them. I never said they don’t have a place. I shoot subs all the time and suppressed almost exclusively.
You can’t comprehend what’s written apparently. You also make a lot of assumptions so….

Who’s talking about just shooting subs? This thread is about hunting with them. And I never said you don’t like subs. As for reading comprehension, what I was saying you didn’t like were the reasons. Not subs in general. Hence why I said just because you don’t like them, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Clearly, I’m not saying “just because you don’t like subs, doesn’t mean they don’t exist”.

You live in a place with lots of pigs, but you can't have a supressor?

Wut??
That don't make no damn sense Billy.

I said a “factor that some may consider in their trade space”. I was not talking about me.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I said a “factor that some may consider in their trade space”. I was not talking about me.

I quoted you in post 26.
See below.
"""I won’t hunt with subs because I can’t have silencers anyway"""



You clearly said YOU couldn't have them.

 

[PappyM3]

I quoted you in post 26.
See below.
"""I won’t hunt with subs because I can’t have silencers anyway"""



You clearly said YOU couldn't have them.

.. I did, and I can’t.

Any sort of trade space ideation for me is moot for my own purposes. Because there is a hard stop.

But that doesn’t change the fact that the pleasantness/noise of shooting is a real factor that some, as in some people, may consider.

 

[myronman3]

44 or 45 caliber with a 300+ grain bullet kept to 1000ish fps.

The bullet weight with the lower velocity still makes power, and you dont need expansion at all for a quick kill. A good hardcast with a hole in and hole out gets it done fast.

Of course , you can’t run that through an AR; so some people are going to be put off by that.

 

[Gtscotty]

After playing with subsonic rounds. I'd say find one that can shoot pistol bullets. My personal favorite is the 77/44. However if your limited to 35cal, I'd look hard for a 77/357.

Bullets are designed to expand and those velocities and do so very reliably. Something most all rifle bullets can't do.

This is my take too, pistol bullets are much cheaper in general than heavy for caliber rifle bullets. Basic HPs start out much wider are more likely to be in their expansion window @ 1,050 fps without out having to buy premium purpose built designs.

I really like my 44/77 and Henry X, plan on using at least the Henry this year with 305gr cast HPs or 300 gr XTP for deer.

Actually plan on hunting all the rifles in that second picture this year, but the Henry is dedicated to subs, and is exceedingly quiet.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Trade space ideation?


Nobody talks like that.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Trade space ideation?


Nobody talks like that.

 

[Haney]

Also I've heard 308 is inconsistent subsonic. What does that really mean? So would you never try to hunt with it? Sometimes it just doesn't go bang? Or accuracy is terrible? Could you elaborate?

That is shit you read from people that don't have a clue they need a faster twist than the usual 10-12 for a .308 Winchester to go subsonic . This is all dictated by twist and the bullet, nothing tricky about it.

 

[TheJeanyus]

This topic has caught my interest this year too as I joined a new hunting club where you can't see more than 50 yards from most of the stands. There are a couple that are maybe 100 yards and one single stand where you can see about 150 yards. The 338 ARC looks appealing, and I look forward to seeing some "real world" results on game with that new 307 gr Hornady Sub X. This year if I hunt those short fields I'm just going to use my 1895 Guide Gun in 45-70, but in the future I would really like something short, suppressed, and subsonic.

 

[Mike Casselton]

.. I did, and I can’t.

Any sort of trade space ideation for me is moot for my own purposes. Because there is a hard stop.

But that doesn’t change the fact that the pleasantness/noise of shooting is a real factor that some, as in some people, may consider.

@TheBigCountry ^^^^^^
This guy.

View attachment 8530057

Nobody, ever talks like that.

I think he was trying to insult me. Instead, he just sounds STOOPIT.

 

[PappyM3]

@TheBigCountry ^^^^^^
This guy.



Nobody, ever talks like that.

I think he was trying to insult me. Instead, he just sounds STOOPIT.

You take offense far too easily. Clearly, someone does talk like that… me. In fact, lots of people in my field talk like that.

I was simply trying to help you parse my comment. No ill will toward you, just a misread comment.

 

[db2000]

Who’s talking about just shooting subs? This thread is about hunting with them. And I never said you don’t like subs. As for reading comprehension, what I was saying you didn’t like were the reasons. Not subs in general. Hence why I said just because you don’t like them, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Clearly, I’m not saying “just because you don’t like subs, doesn’t mean they don’t exist”.


I said a “factor that some may consider in their trade space”. I was not talking about me.

You’re a fucking moron. You just keep misquoting everyone on here. I didn’t think I need to post your bullshit but here it is. You stating exactly what I said. That I “don’t like them” referring to subs.

 

[PappyM3]

You’re a fucking moron. You just keep misquoting everyone on here. I didn’t think I need to post your bullshit but here it is. You stating exactly what I said. That I “don’t like them” referring to subs.
View attachment 8530122

Sweet Jesus, man. “them” is not referring to subsonic bullets. It is referring to the reasons why people use subs for hunting.

Look at the last part of that sentence. Is there any doubt about the existence of subsonic cartridges? That provides a clue as to what “them” is referring to. The other clue is that the two of us were discussing reasons for using subs to hunt. The two of us were not discussing subsonic cartridges themselves.

 

[Mike Casselton]

You take offense far too easily. Clearly, someone does talk like that… me. In fact, lots of people in my field talk like that.

I was simply trying to help you parse my comment. No ill will toward you, just a misread comment.

I rarely take offense.
Your comment was cut and dried.
Your comment and your intent were and are, completely different from each other.

Are you an engineer?

 

[PappyM3]

I rarely take offense.
Your comment was cut and dried.
Your comment and your intent were and are, completely different from each other.

Are you an engineer?

Yes, and yes my comment was cut and dry. What else could it mean when a person says “some may do .. such and such.”? It refers to other people. Potentially including oneself, but not necessarily. It does necessarily include others though.

 

[roostercogburn98]

including oneself, but not necessarily. It does necessarily include others though.

Is this similar to trying to unburden the burden? Asking for a friend

 

[TheBigCountry]

@TheBigCountry ^^^^^^
This guy.



Nobody, ever talks like that.

I think he was trying to insult me. Instead, he just sounds STOOPIT.

Sounds like he’s trying to be a walking dictionary and showing his ass big time

BTW sending you a text

 

[Mike Casselton]

Yes, and yes my comment was cut and dry. What else could it mean when a person says “some may do .. such and such.”? It refers to other people. Potentially including oneself, but not necessarily. It does necessarily include others though.

Holy fuck! I feel like I'm listening to my ex.

 

[PappyM3]

Holy fuck! I feel like I'm listening to my ex.

And I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. This is simple English.

 

[snowplow]

Ok guys, here's how l would sum this up so far.

1. Run as large of a dia as you can. .45 > .35 > .338 > .300. Simply because with velocity being constant, more power simply comes from more available bullet weight.

2. Calibers that have hollow point pistol bullets are favored when inside 100 yards or so due to bad bc but reliable expansion at that velocity.

3. A .45 cal that doesn't expand is equivalent to a .30 cal with reliable expansion. Both are generally accepted as great. Deductive reasoning supposes a .35 cal with good expansion may be better. A .45 cal with expansion would be best.

4. If a .308 can reliably shoot subsonic, deductive reasoning suggests that 338 fed or 358 win can to. Also though l haven't heard of it, 358 win, with the heaviest bullets of the three should be able to run more powder while staying subsonic thereby increasing reliability and power over .338 fed and .308 win.

That is what l have gathered so far.

 

[carbonbased]

And yet… there are still legitimate reasons people choose to hunt with subs. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

So, this seems to be the paragraph that is creating controversy?

This is not a great paragraph.

First, “you” = @db2000

In the second sentence, “them” could refer to “reasons”, “people”, or “subs.”

For example, Pappy could be saying:

1) db2000 doesn’t like the reasons people hunt with subs.

or…

2) db2000 doesn’t like the people that hunt with subs.

or finally…

3) db2000 doesn’t like subsonic ammo

We can rule out #2 & #3 because it’s obvious db2000 wasn’t trying to say either subs or certain people don’t exist (see last bit of second sentence), either metaphorically or in reality, so that leaves us only #1.

One should not have to work this hard to decipher a paragraph.

For that, I hate you @PappyM3


Lol just kidding

Oh, and I agree with what was your original intent, which I take as being open-hearted to others with prefs different than one’s own.

For example, I have weird hearing issues and if I’m around unsuppressed gunfire, I lose hearing in one ear (even if doubled up). Doc says, yeah, probably bone conduction + prev damage.

So I have a lot of sympathy for those who like to shoot or hunt suppressed, whether with supers or subs.

Also, pardon if I just misunderstood the confusion.

 

[carbonbased]

P.S. @PappyM3 , when you are talking to humans outside of your very niche work environment (and believe me, it is niche), you might want to refrain from using the phrase “trade space” and “trade space ideation”?

Unless you either a) want to confuse a regular person, or b) sound dorky af.

I read a lot, and that’s a new term for me.

Apparently the term is popular in NASA and defense industries? It sounds achingly close to corporate buzzword bullshit (even if it is not).

Even the author of this Wikipedia article failed to cut to the chase and use plain language:

Tradespace - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org