Subsonics - All Calibers
- Thread starter Two Shoes
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The only thing I use TB for is .308 Win subs. For .300 BLK, I use Alliant 300-MP.
New video is up of my new Ruger American Ranch 16" .300 Blackout bolt-action rifle shooting my handload 220 subs, comparing my Dead Air Sandman-S MIL Contract to my Otter Creek Labs Hydrogen-S.
Thanks! It seems like you’re about the only one. Everyone else seems to largely ignore them.
I guess many people want to just see results and say "that one is quietest, ill buy that".
Tone, size, mass and recoil all add up. I dont have access to many suppressors here in Aus, however i have the licence to manufacture them. I have several different models ive made, so this really interests me.
One thing ive always wanted to get measurements on is:
Physical dimension (diameter and length), weight, material construction.
By deduction, you could add that to a spread sheet, and enter material weight via volume.
Ill pick on THIS
Do you have any data for this can ? Pretend your control sound is 165.0db, and your measured average is 139.0db. which gives a reduction of 26.0db.
You could then say "this model suppressor gives a reduction of Xdb per cm^3 of volume, or "requires Ycm^3 of free air per db reduction".
I think you will quickly learn a few things about efficiency.
Tone, size, mass and recoil all add up. I dont have access to many suppressors here in Aus, however i have the licence to manufacture them. I have several different models ive made, so this really interests me.
One thing ive always wanted to get measurements on is:
Physical dimension (diameter and length), weight, material construction.
By deduction, you could add that to a spread sheet, and enter material weight via volume.
Ill pick on THIS
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS:
- Length: 3.3" - 7.3"
- Diameter: 1.55"
- Weight: 3.7 - 9.3oz
- Color: Black
- Material: 7075 Billet Aluminum
- Coating: Type 3 Hard Anodized
Do you have any data for this can ? Pretend your control sound is 165.0db, and your measured average is 139.0db. which gives a reduction of 26.0db.
You could then say "this model suppressor gives a reduction of Xdb per cm^3 of volume, or "requires Ycm^3 of free air per db reduction".
I think you will quickly learn a few things about efficiency.
I just bought an AR in .300 Blackout, 16" barrel 1:8 twist. It's intended for subsonic use only.
I'm starting with 220gr Lapua Scenars, 11gr IMR-4198 and a magnum primer. Should be around 1000fps
I also have 200gr Lapua SUBs, and 175gr Hornady SUB-X bullets to workup loads for.
Do the "experts" see any problems with these combinations?
Thanks!
I'm starting with 220gr Lapua Scenars, 11gr IMR-4198 and a magnum primer. Should be around 1000fps
I also have 200gr Lapua SUBs, and 175gr Hornady SUB-X bullets to workup loads for.
Do the "experts" see any problems with these combinations?
Thanks!
From my experiences, I have found the 8-8.5” twists do much better with short bearing surface bullets, like the Berger 210 VLD’s. And CCI 400 primers have produced much better ES and subsonic groups at 100 yards, and better consistency with hits at 200.
New Magpul Hunter AICS stock and Magpul AICS 5.56 mags finally came in for the Ruger Ranch .300 BLK. She looks (and handles) exponentially better than with the factory plastic stock.
Well… Since it’s last public appearance, my Ruger American Ranch 16” .300 BLK has undergone a bit of a transformation, and definitely for the better. That factory stock, while lightweight and functional for hunting, is thin and flimsy, so I put a Magpul Hunter AICS stock on it. And got some of the new Magpul PMag 10 5.56 AC (AICS) mags for it, so I could seat the bullets much closer to the lands for Precision subsonic handloads. I also installed an Anarchy Outdoors threaded bolt handle & knob, and a Timney trigger (factory Ruger trigger is in the box), that I adjusted down to around 1.5 lbs. It has no excuse not to shoot good groups now. 
Precision subsonic Berger 210 VLDs. I’ll test them tomorrow to see how well they shoot. They’re seated 0.010” off the lands, thanks to the longer AICS 5.56 magazines.
Precision subsonic Berger 210 VLDs. I’ll test them tomorrow to see how well they shoot. They’re seated 0.010” off the lands, thanks to the longer AICS 5.56 magazines.
Trying to load some 220gr Hornady round nose Subs in my 308 Win.
The overall length seem to be very short using the comparator:
308 Obermeyer chamber 220gr is 2.710 which has a freebore of .0850 Throat 0.1028
I'm guessing I need to have a chamber with longer freebore/Throat? Maybe FB .0950 and Throat 0.1124?
Mickey308
The overall length seem to be very short using the comparator:
308 Obermeyer chamber 220gr is 2.710 which has a freebore of .0850 Throat 0.1028
I'm guessing I need to have a chamber with longer freebore/Throat? Maybe FB .0950 and Throat 0.1124?
Mickey308
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Not sure, I work up all my own with a chronograph from years of trial & error knowledge. I try to keep mine between 1050-1085 FPS MV.
223Rem - AR with 16" barrel and 1/7" twist
Developed around 0C / 30F
Chronoed with Labradar
75gr Hornady, Norma brass, Ginex primer
Both bullet and case neck lubed with Unique, I modded a 17HMR case to drop the powder into the case without sticking to the neck.
Vihtavuori N310 powder
0.40g / 6.2gr - 433ms / 1420fps
0.30g / 4.6gr - 340ms / 1115fps
0.28g / 4.3gr - lab did not catch these but definitely subsonic and close to 320 / 1050fps
0.26g / 4.0gr - 292ms / 958fps
I use the shorter bullets for these loads.
The 75gr shows instability at 50m on target but is still well accurate within 2moa (2 hits on paper within 0.4" and the one on carton was also centered), more testing needed. Did a big number on a big milk carton, ripped it up bad. Could not even find the bullet, or its remains.
The BC barely moves, a silent click.
Zero at 50m is 2.8 mrad up from my usual 100m zero.
I did this just as a training for reloading, it was quite fun. Next I am going to see how the bullet does out to 100m or 150m.
Fun fact:
The powder charge in grams reflects perfectly the muzzle velocity if you add 35ms to it. So nearly 1:1000 ratio in powder and speed.
Developed around 0C / 30F
Chronoed with Labradar
75gr Hornady, Norma brass, Ginex primer
Both bullet and case neck lubed with Unique, I modded a 17HMR case to drop the powder into the case without sticking to the neck.
Vihtavuori N310 powder
0.40g / 6.2gr - 433ms / 1420fps
0.30g / 4.6gr - 340ms / 1115fps
0.28g / 4.3gr - lab did not catch these but definitely subsonic and close to 320 / 1050fps
0.26g / 4.0gr - 292ms / 958fps
I use the shorter bullets for these loads.
The 75gr shows instability at 50m on target but is still well accurate within 2moa (2 hits on paper within 0.4" and the one on carton was also centered), more testing needed. Did a big number on a big milk carton, ripped it up bad. Could not even find the bullet, or its remains.
The BC barely moves, a silent click.
Zero at 50m is 2.8 mrad up from my usual 100m zero.
I did this just as a training for reloading, it was quite fun. Next I am going to see how the bullet does out to 100m or 150m.
Fun fact:
The powder charge in grams reflects perfectly the muzzle velocity if you add 35ms to it. So nearly 1:1000 ratio in powder and speed.
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New Video is up! Ruger American Ranch .300 BLK with the Otter Creek Labs Hydrogen-S and Berger 210 VLD subsonic handloads at 200 yards.
Shoot 'em at 50, and at 200, an then you'll know the answer. My guess is it'll look better at 50, and worse at 200.
I'd say so... they don't look like nice rounds holes like my 220gr smk 300blk sub holes....
Yeah, that looks like a slightly to moderately destabilized bullet hole. With a 1/8 twist and the shorter 220 round nose, it should be more than stable. I've shot those out of a 1/10 and through a circa 2000 AWC Thundertrap with a really tight bore and I don't remember them smearing like that...kinda makes me wonder if there might be something else causing it.
Thank You All for the Help. I'm going to use the cleaning rod/tight patch trick to check the twist rate. Thats what I thought too that a 1/8 twist would be more than enough for heavy bullets subs/supers. Could a muzzle brake or barrel being an 5R rifling affect stability?
Yes, they are unstable. The technical term for this is "keyholeing".
5R is the type of rifling, and should actually improve the accuracy based on how it's designed to cause LESS bullet deformation on the jacket.
But yes, if the muzzle threads were cut crooked, or the muzzle brake threads were crooked, or it wasn't machined 100% straight, or if you're muzzle threads weren't straight, and your muzzle brake is getting baffle strikes, or if your crown wasn't cut 100% straight, then it will cause this as well.
Berger 210 VLD's and Nosler 210 RDF's the same... My Berry's .300 BLK 220 TMJ's are not stable in my 8.5" twist 16" AR, and they don't shoot very well in my 16" 1:7 twist Ruger American Ranch... However, the Berger 210's shoot REALLY well in both of them.
My theory is the RN and TMJ type .300 BLK specific bullets have an extremely long bearing surface, and they just aren't designed very well. The Berger 210's have a shorter bearing surface, and will most-likely stabilize in a slower twist barrel, because of less bearing surface touching the rifling. This is just my theory after spending years experimenting with subsonic and .300 BLK and .308 Win.
I believe the answer is in the physics. If you have two identical gyroscopes but one has a solid "wheel" and the other has one like a spoked bicycle wheel the bicycle wheel gyroscope will be more stable and for a longer period. With a higher % of its weight further from its axis it develops greater centripetal force. The Hornady 220RN and the Maker 220 are both round nose. The Maker is actually longer due to being a copper solid,yet it will stabilize in my 1:8 ranch rifle when the Hornadys will not. This is because it is a hollow point and therefore develops more centripetal force. Side note: I shoot the 210 Makers over the 220 Makers only because I found an accurate load for it first.
Thanks for the video! I saw in a follow-up post you mentioned the Berry's 220 grain bullets weren't very accurate in your Ruger Ranch rifle. That's a shame as I thought they would be a very cost effective way of doing some plinking with subs at 200 to 300 yards.
Thanks!
Thanks!
New video is up comparing my Dead Air Nomad-LT and TBAC Magnus-HUB with my subsonic handloads in my 16" Christensen Arms MPR .308 Win.
What powders are people using for sub .308WIN with Trail Boss and N32C both apparently discontinued?
If you know what you’re doing, blue dot will work great with heavies and 1/8 - 1/10 twist barrel.
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Tried some Hodgdon Universal Clays and Berger 215 Hybrids in my 300 Whisper bolt gun.
7.3 gns, Lapua brass, Federal small rifle magnum primer, 7.3 gns UC. 1070 fps.
Shitty accuracy with all loads from 7.0 - 7.5 gns.
Crappy ES/SD as an added bonus.
Hollywood quiet though.
7.3 gns, Lapua brass, Federal small rifle magnum primer, 7.3 gns UC. 1070 fps.
Shitty accuracy with all loads from 7.0 - 7.5 gns.
Crappy ES/SD as an added bonus.
Hollywood quiet though.
Here’s my sub moa 450BM loads
Starline Brass, Rem 7 1/2 primers but CCI 450 shows very similar results. RCBS F/L dies
DTA Covert, 16in barrel 1:16 tw 1.250 straight contour
These are bolt guns/single load only, they will not cycle a semi unless you have an insane gas port size and low mass bcg.
1) 300gr XTP MAG, 2.115in coal. 12.6gr Trailboss. 1033 ES 8. The normal XTP expand better but seemed like they were not as accurate as the XTP mag for some reasons. Not using them atm since I can’t find more trailboss.
2) 395gr SubX, 2.24in coal. 15.0gr N32c Tinstar, 1030 FPS. ES 10
My favourite load, very accurate. Already bagged 2 yotes at about 100yrds in an afternoon. Much more accurate than the Hornady factory 395 which uses lil gun so that it can cycle an AR. The factory stuff gives me about 1 1/2 moa at 100yards with mostly vertical spread which still perfectly fine for a short range shot on a medium size game, the N32c loads gives me about 3/4 moa with almost no vertical at 100y. I’ve tested it all the way to a 2.5 moa gong at 300m and went 5/5, quite a bit of spin drift (0.4-0.5 mils) on those heavies, much more than 22lr at that distance.
3) 500gr Cast. 2.15in coal. 12.5gr Blue dot. 1020 FPS. ES 13. Looks promising, bit more recoil than the 395s and the guy who was casting them for me has some health issue. I might try to size down cheap 500gr copper plated 458 socom bullets to 452
Starline Brass, Rem 7 1/2 primers but CCI 450 shows very similar results. RCBS F/L dies
DTA Covert, 16in barrel 1:16 tw 1.250 straight contour
These are bolt guns/single load only, they will not cycle a semi unless you have an insane gas port size and low mass bcg.
1) 300gr XTP MAG, 2.115in coal. 12.6gr Trailboss. 1033 ES 8. The normal XTP expand better but seemed like they were not as accurate as the XTP mag for some reasons. Not using them atm since I can’t find more trailboss.
2) 395gr SubX, 2.24in coal. 15.0gr N32c Tinstar, 1030 FPS. ES 10
My favourite load, very accurate. Already bagged 2 yotes at about 100yrds in an afternoon. Much more accurate than the Hornady factory 395 which uses lil gun so that it can cycle an AR. The factory stuff gives me about 1 1/2 moa at 100yards with mostly vertical spread which still perfectly fine for a short range shot on a medium size game, the N32c loads gives me about 3/4 moa with almost no vertical at 100y. I’ve tested it all the way to a 2.5 moa gong at 300m and went 5/5, quite a bit of spin drift (0.4-0.5 mils) on those heavies, much more than 22lr at that distance.
3) 500gr Cast. 2.15in coal. 12.5gr Blue dot. 1020 FPS. ES 13. Looks promising, bit more recoil than the 395s and the guy who was casting them for me has some health issue. I might try to size down cheap 500gr copper plated 458 socom bullets to 452
New video is up with the AGM Neith NV scope shooting a life-sized steel deer @ 200 yards with the 16" .300 BLK and 220 subs.
New video is up with my H&K MP5 & Rugged Obsidian 45 sighting in the irons @ 100 yards with Federal American Eagle 147gr. subsonic ammo. So far I'm extremely impressed with the consistency and accuracy of this ammo. With factory-adjusted (before I adjusted them) irons I went 22/30 at 100 yards, and even started gotting 6/10 at 200 yards on steel gongs. I've never had pistol ammo that was that consistent.
Nah, I don't reload that shit. Semi-auto pistol cartridges are not my forte' since I single-stage load for everything, and I can get 147's for about $0.25-$0.30 per/rd right now. Now, once I breakdown and spend the cash on a MK7 Autodrive Dillon or a Mark7 Revolution press, then I will probably start loading for 9mm, .357 Sig, and .45 Auto. Right now the only pistols I reload for are revolvers (.357 Mag & .44 Mag). I have .357 Sig dies incase SHTF and you can't find them or ammo anymore, but I don't currently load for it.
Ya I single stage and have a dillon 550. I think the next one will be the Lee 6000, six stages so I can get a bullet feeder, powder check and case loader on it.
Thing is you can get your load to just under sonic in your gun with your can.
I have a load I was throwing today, 147g hollow points, 3.3g of W244 @ 900fps a mild load 3.4 would make it about 950fps.
Add 6 inches to the barrel and a can and probably 1050-1075 fps.
Might take a powder change to get it perfect.
Even if your pockets are deep, toss that brass in a bucket for bad times or a gift.
I'll pm you an address so your garage doesn't overflow. Lol
Thing is you can get your load to just under sonic in your gun with your can.
I have a load I was throwing today, 147g hollow points, 3.3g of W244 @ 900fps a mild load 3.4 would make it about 950fps.
Add 6 inches to the barrel and a can and probably 1050-1075 fps.
Might take a powder change to get it perfect.
Even if your pockets are deep, toss that brass in a bucket for bad times or a gift.
I'll pm you an address so your garage doesn't overflow. Lol
300 b.o. 8" Noveske barrel, pistol gas, NM bolt carrier assembly. H1 buffer.
I have some 180 SMK's so I worked up a load.
7.6 gr Lil'Gun
2.015" coal.
1036 fps using labradar.
Cycles the gun, 100%. SUPER SOFT recoil and very quiet through and old school AAC 7.62 SD with the 17 or 18 tooth mount.
I have some 180 SMK's so I worked up a load.
7.6 gr Lil'Gun
2.015" coal.
1036 fps using labradar.
Cycles the gun, 100%. SUPER SOFT recoil and very quiet through and old school AAC 7.62 SD with the 17 or 18 tooth mount.
I liked L'il Gun's results, but couldn't handle the "sticky" powder that was a PITA to get out of my ChargeMaster 1500 ... went with IMR 4227 and get 300-BLK results that are just as good, but without the mess of trying to get all the L'il Gun out of my powder dispenser.
I just looked at all the powder sticking to my chargmaster this morning. I thought ugh, what am I supposed to do with that...
Maybe I'll devote that chargemaster to Lil'Gun. I just found my 500 box of 240 SMK's before we went to dinner tonight. Once I get all these 180's loaded, I'll work on a load for the 240's.
Between the 4227 and blk, do you have a preference? I kept reading how Lil'Gun was so quiet. Ultimately, that's why I went with it and with the 180's, it's definitely quiet in this gun.
The IMR 4227 shoots really quiet for me, but I shoot everything suppressed so subsonic 300-BLK with a suppressor is pretty dang quiet. I get great performance from it ... and no sticky powder cleanup.
Been playing with a bunch of different calibers and Trail Boss. I lucked into 3 jars of it at my LGS for $40 each a few months back. I know these won’t help everyone, thanks to TB being vaporware, but it may help someone. These are both extremely accurate loads and whisper quiet, though the 7mm is a bit quieter. I have found this has really helped bring a new-ish shooter, my wife, into the sport/hobby a little more. She is extremely recoil shy and these both have none. I’m hoping before next deer season I can load some bullets up that will properly expand for hunting inside of 150 yards. For the 7mm I am using an AAC Ti-rant can and for the 308 a Resonator K. I know that the AAC Ti-rant can is rated for pistol only, but a 9mm is right around 30k psi and these subs are both under 20k. Using this titanium can adds little to no weight to the front end of the Remington 700 7mm and is even quieter than my YHM resonator K on the 308. To my ears anyways. Both of these have only been shot at temps under about 80* so far. I am not smart enough to know what they will do when it’s super hot out, but I’ll find out in a month or so. My elevation is 5200’. Both loads have been shot out to 200 yards on paper and punch nice round holes.
Savage 308 1/10 twist 18” barrel - 10.3gr of Trail Boss in a Federal Gold Medal Match piece of brass with a CCI 200 primer topped off with a 175RDF is doing right at 1060fps.
Remington 700 7mm Rem Mag 1/9.25 twist 24” barrel - 12gr of Trail Boss in a Remington piece of brass with a 210 primer topped off with a Berger 168VLD is doing right at 1045fps.
Savage 308 1/10 twist 18” barrel - 10.3gr of Trail Boss in a Federal Gold Medal Match piece of brass with a CCI 200 primer topped off with a 175RDF is doing right at 1060fps.
Remington 700 7mm Rem Mag 1/9.25 twist 24” barrel - 12gr of Trail Boss in a Remington piece of brass with a 210 primer topped off with a Berger 168VLD is doing right at 1045fps.
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