Movie Theater Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

#3
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

I just got done watching the show, and I found it to be a good watch. I do have some questions though..

Shouldn't the score to move forward be higher then 70%?? I mean that allows the shooters to miss up 3 targets out of 10 that they were engaging. I figured the scoring to move on would be high.

I expected the shooters to be able to hit a tank at a mile with one shot, but some couldn't. That should be an auto fail there in my eyes. I mean these guys are suppose to be the best of the best, and some had a hard time hitting a tank at a mile.

For the final test, why isn't one shot? Isn't that the whole premise behind being a sniper, one shot, one kill.

I was laughing at what the one guy said during the final test" If you miss here, you don't get a second chance.", Yes, they do. They have two chances to hit a target no more then 700 yards away, which I think these guys should be able to do with ease.

Am I wrong in my thinking that these guys should be shooting better, or am I way out in right field.

I'm not saying it's easy, but I figured these guys would make it look easy, unless we were just watching the really bad shooters..



 
#4
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

It's still a basic course and only so much involves shooting. There is a lot more to it then simply taking a shot.

You don't come out of it a David Tubb.

Try enlisting and passing then let us know how easy it was.
 
#5
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

wow go jerk off and watch shooter. i love people making light of what those guys do. "should be easier" "they shouldn't make it past that point" cool and then we'll have less warfighters actually goin in harms way so you can go shoot on your one way range under a awning for a couple hours on a nice saturday, then go home and drink a beer.

rant over
 
#6
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wow go jerk off and watch shooter.</div></div>

I do this daily!!!
 
#8
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's still a basic course and only so much involves shooting. There is a lot more to it then simply taking a shot.

You don't come out of it a David Tubb.

Try enlisting and passing then let us know how easy it was. </div></div>

I never said it was easy, so that point is mute. I'm sure there is plethora of stuff that is invloved in those 5 weeks they went through and I will never know what they did, or didn't do. I was just asking the questions on what I saw from the show.
 
#9
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They leave the bolt handle up and the elastic holds it forward and closed. Usually it is attached forward. He probably puts it around his scope. </div></div>

Oh, that makes sense! Thanks for the answer!
 
#10
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wow go jerk off and watch shooter. i love people making light of what those guys do. "should be easier" "they shouldn't make it past that point" cool and then we'll have less warfighters actually goin in harms way so you can go shoot on your one way range under a awning for a couple hours on a nice saturday, then go home and drink a beer.

rant over </div></div>

So according to you then, we should lower the score, and let less competent shooters become snipers because we will have less warfighters.. Yea, that makes sense.. Not only possible killing themselves, they put their spotters life in harms way as well because of a possible missed shot.

Don't assume anything, you don't know who I am, or what I have done. SO don't give me the ole their in arms way, while I'm drinking a beer on saturday..

I didn't make light of anything, I guess I was holding these guys to a higher standard since they are the ones allowing us to go get drunk and shoot on saturdays..
 
#12
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's still a basic course and only so much involves shooting. There is a lot more to it then simply taking a shot.

You don't come out of it a David Tubb.

Try enlisting and passing then let us know how easy it was. </div></div>

That's funny as hell!
 
#13
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was it just me or did all the scopes appear to be fixed power (assume 10x)?

I sort of expected to see a few PMII/NF/etc.. </div></div>

I saw a bunch that were adjustable power in that show!

Even saw a Bushnell being used! (I think)

 
#14
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was it just me or did all the scopes appear to be fixed power (assume 10x)?

I sort of expected to see a few PMII/NF/etc.. </div></div>

I saw a bunch that were adjustable power in that show!

Even saw a Bushnell being used! (I think)

</div></div>

Hmm, I'll have to fire up the DVR again, I musta missed it but I didn't see anything that looked familiar.
 
#15
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was it just me or did all the scopes appear to be fixed power (assume 10x)?

I sort of expected to see a few PMII/NF/etc.. </div></div>

I saw a bunch that were adjustable power in that show!

Even saw a Bushnell being used! (I think)

</div></div>

Hmm, I'll have to fire up the DVR again, I musta missed it but I didn't see anything that looked familiar. </div></div>

It might not've been "a bunch"... But I saw a few shots where the shooters were adjusting magnification...

And I could've sworn I saw a Bushnell being used (pretty much just based from the turret on the scope)... But it may have been a MK4 scope, not really certain!
 
#16
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moose72</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I didn't make light of anything, I guess I was holding these guys to a higher standard since they are the ones allowing us to go get drunk and shoot on saturdays..
</div></div>

Big Joe is one of those that is upholding your freedom to drink beer on Saturday.

I am sure the percentages are based off required numbers and previous passing totals.

But hey, what do I know? I just drive ships for a living.

Josh
 
#17
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

One shot, one kill is an advertising slogan. In the real word, at longer distances, a 100% shot to hit ratio is unrealistic.

What is important is that you are able to adjust from a miss and log some hits from what you just learned.

If, throughout the course of a campaign, you get a 70% hit ratio (70 BGs per 100 rounds)...that's pretty damn good.
 
#18
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

Over the last 10 to 15 years Ive seen more TV jack-assery come out of that school than I can imagine.

I have no problem with low-crawling through swampage to weather ghillies to proper color, but the other gut-check crap (i.e., spray-painting a student's ghillie blaze orange as a punishment) is just plain stoopid.

Five weeks is a shit-ton of time to produce a competent crawler and shooter -- Special Forces does it in six with a ton more technical stuff thrown in. I imagine Quantico's courses are the same.

50 percent attrition may be the standard but it's a waste of good Soldiers and money at the cost of hunter-killers that could be slaying bad guys.

I'm not saying schools shouldn't have standards -- but there's got to be some maturity involved when looking at the "How" we produce and the "What" and "How many" get to the line.

True snipers are hard to make -- it's not any easier to field required numbers for rare seats when the school can't qualify the guys who pass entry hurdles -- and there aren't any local division schools.
 
#19
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

if anyone tells you they can guaruntee first round head shots and all that bullshit they are fucking retarded. you can expect more all you want, i don't know who you are and this is the internet so you could be a space sniper doctor with a advanced degree in dog grooming, who the fuck cares. But you really think a TV show will give you any idea what it takes to do that job? Marine and Army Snipers are very good at what they do. I just find it interesting people critiquing their process. Seems to have worked so far.
 
#20
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

Joe, if you are refering to sinisger, he is the real deal. If you are refering to the other unimformed poster, then...yeah.

Sinister, I think a lot of the school is let over from when an actual sniper spot was a rare and under utilized asset. The mission today requires higher numbers of hunter/killers than a decade ago, ergo, the school is still taylored to wash out a ton of candidates.

But, to be honest, todays mission requires guys that can engage targets at long distances. One does not necessarily need to go to school to be good at that aspect of it. The other skills learned (the hard part) are what will keep a shooter and spotter alive in a traditional sniper role...but, other than urban hides, the current conflict does not require that much. Not many guys slow crawling through natural veg in a ghuille to get into position for a high value target right now.

Its funny, over a decade ago, our new Brigade commander wanted a sniper for every Platoon. Positions were assigned, but nobody could get a slot in school. Now, the whole military has realized the value of the asset and they are trying to crank more through school.

But, you are right, there is a lot of. Traditional thinking in producing graduates...not all bad, but they may need to do a Sniper School for traditonal roles and another school directed more toward just the shooting aspect...don't know.

Sorry, just thinking through the keyboard, didn't intend to sidetrack the thread...I avent even seen the show yet. I am not a huge fan of "this is how the selection really is...but not really" TV.
 
#22
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nope not sinister, my beef was with gugibca or whatever his user name is </div></div>

That's me...I think
grin.gif
 
#23
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

Just watched it, had it dvred.

Wasn't good, but wasn't bad either. Biggest surprise for me was that someone could retake the school if they failed. I remember guys trying to reapply and waiting the rest of their career to actually get another slot.
And, didn't you used to have to hit a live fire shot from the same position in the stalking portion?
 
#24
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

[quoteWas it just me or did all the scopes appear to be fixed power (assume 10x)?
] [/quote]

Those looked like M24's with M3A (10X) scopes. I was surpise that we did not see more M110. I only saw a few in the begining of the program.

Also I am sure the school has change since the war started.
 
#25
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

A couple things that struck me as interesting.

They commented that guys from the country were better at staying undetected while city guys were better shots! I wonder how the city guys got to be better shots?

Also, those guys that short cycled their rifles made me think of the Rifles Only practice of checking to make sure you have a round chambered. A stitch in time, right?

I tried to short stroke like this with my FN SPR and was not able to. I guess checking the round is still a good habit to get into.
 
#26
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

also you guys need to realize that like frank said that is the basic course, the army now has like 3-4 seperate sniper courses not just one.
 
#28
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

I agree with Lowlights second post to the "T".

I went through the course in 05...

Primary objective/mission statement of a sniper is to deliver long range precision fire upon key targets and targets of opportunity and report battlefield intelligence to higher (FM 23-10... the other Bible).

The misconception that each and every "sniper" is dead nuts when it comes to effectively engaging a threat down range is false... The follow up shot is more likely to be the fatal shot ( for obvious reasons...). While deployed in OIF III we (4a, 4b and 4c) spent the majority of our time reporting battlefield Intel and "if" the opportunity presented itself we would then follow our given ROE. In fact the majority of the time we received fire (or found ourselves in a "dynamic situation") was when we moved in with an infantry element (used other assets to obscure our movement by blending in and detached ourselves once we found an appropriate hide). Urban warfare was tough due to the fact that they (haji) seemed to check every fucking crack in that god forsaken land. An abandoned house was surely visited once a week for no reason and once you did find a honey hole.... we're trained never to set a routine that can be followed.

I found it interesting that they only showed those that struggled... what about all the others with 1st round go's? They all deserved to be there (your unit won't waste the time of sending the individual through a psych eval, a slot given (only so many slots open a year) and the funds it takes...to send a shit bag).

I also noticed that they left out the "day and night movers"... section which I thought was the most challenging. The "final shot/cold bore shot" was not part of my grading criteria. There was a lot more to that school then what was shown.

All the optics on the M24's are Luppy's (M3A... fixed 10X.. wish we would've had MIL/MIL optics with .5 mil hash marks).

Moose72 is your typical internet commando...

I said my peace... believe me if you want... I have nothing to prove. Just thought I'd share my experience on the subject.
 
#29
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple things that struck me as interesting.

They commented that guys from the country were better at staying undetected while city guys were better shots! I wonder how the city guys got to be better shots? </div></div>

I have actually seen this. Many country boys have developed bad habits in their fundimentals. These are harder to correct then teaching a guy from scratch. And, honestly, Joe made a great point, these guys dont get advanced marksmanship training here, its pretty basic, really. I am in no way implying that they are poor shooters, but, one would get more info with the online training offered here than what these guys get in this school. That's why you see Snipers go to Rifles only for training.
 
#33
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They commented that guys from the country were better at staying undetected while city guys were better shots! I wonder how the city guys got to be better shots?
</div></div>

Since the men raised in the city never really learned how to hunt or shoot then they have no pre-conceived notions on the way THE ARMY wants you to shoot. Think of that way as making something with clay.

Country guys are just naturally better at hunting, because that's what they grew up knowing. Hunting in the woods.
 
#34
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

Sniper School is about training, not elimination or badge guarding. There's really nothing in the POI, or that the cadre do, to intentionally wash people out. They WANT them to graduate. Currently there is no more harassing, and not a whole lot of silly stuff like painting ghillies orange. The only stress in that course is the stress the student puts on himself through pressure to pass the course. There simply isn't enough time to add a bunch of games and gut checks within a 5 week course where they need to learn the M24, M110, M107 and soon the XM-2010 as well. In theory, everyone who shows up to attend Sniper School has been picked by their Commander (read recommended to the Commander by all the NCOs between the Commander and that Soldier), so there's no reason for a bunch of games, or a focus on elimination.

Even guys who fail droppable events get to stay and continue with training if their unit allows them. They won't get their certificate, but holistically that may mean something as small and easy to deal with, back at the unit, as "I need to work on stalking" or "I need to get better at target detection" because guess what...not every Sniper in the Army has even been to Sniper School. A guy who fails out will most likely return to his section and deploy as a sniper anyway. There are plenty of home-grown, unit trained guys who are excellent Snipers who've never had a chance to go to the actual school and be an official, B4 qualified, have the diploma Sniper. There are plenty of B4 qualified, been to the school and got the diploma guys who will never actually be Snipers. The School isn't like jumpmaster or airborne, where if you fail you won't be a jumpmaster or paratrooper. Odds are most of the students are already snipers, and will continue to be snipers whether they check all the blocks or not.

So yes, they could throw a bunch of people out for not being perfect shots, or not shooting like someone who's been a gun guy his whole life...and what good would come of that?

So yes, the premise of the show is "surviving the cut" and there are cuts to be made along the way to getting a diploma and the Sniper qualification put in your file, but that doesn't mean those same cuts apply to being a Sniper...because you can be a Sniper without going to Sniper School, and you can go to Sniper School without ever been in a Sniper Section at a unit.

Sniper School sets the stage for a career of training and professional development as a Sniper.

I don't know any Battalion Commanders who would say "Well, I don't have any B4 qualified dudes, so I'm going to completely cut snipers and sniping out of all my tactical plans for the next 12 months of this deployment....leave all the M110's and M24's in the arms room HHC Commander." It just doesn't work like that.
 
#35
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

rgrwilcox That is good to know that the school no longer makes guys leave once they fail. That was my biggest complant in the 2004-2006 time frame. I wanted joes to get training and it seemed stupid to me that one a stalk was failed they had to get up and not complete the lane. I perfered how SOTIC did the point system and everyone got to finish each stalk.

jeffersonv - It is alot easer to short stroke the long action (m24) 7.62x51 that it is a short action.

K_4c I didnt relise you went throu, good to know.
 
#37
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just watched it, had it dvred.

Wasn't good, but wasn't bad either. Biggest surprise for me was that someone could retake the school if they failed. I remember guys trying to reapply and waiting the rest of their career to actually get another slot.
And, didn't you used to have to hit a live fire shot from the same position in the stalking portion?
</div></div>

Just because they did not pass the coarse does not mean their issues for not passing are un-correctable. While they may be eligble to try again, its likely they will be at the bottom of the list. Hell, even guys that wash out of BUDs training are able to re-apply. As for the other part, I have no idea the chronological order, but the stalk/shoot part is done towards the end. This is after the shooters demostrated the ability to make a shot in a similar environment. They already qualified, so the assumption is that if they get to the 2nd shot, they "should" be able to make the range corrections and calculations to take the shot if it were live. Thus the ID cards that are held up will confirm if the shooter actually has a shot, or if they are just firing the blank to speed up the process.

Snipers, as remarkable as their skills are, are no more or less human than the rest. Holding them to the standards you assume they should be held to would leave us with little to no snipers at all.

Even with the room for error they leave for the scoring, passing at the bottom of the score still sets you apart from the rest of the run-of-the-mill soldiers. Are their soldiers better than the ones in the school? Are there soldiers better at fieldcraft and marksmanship? Sure. But they are not in that school, and its a loss to them. The men going through that training want to be there. Its on them to learn and apply the skills.
 
#38
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

jeffersonv said:
A couple things that struck me as interesting.

They commented that guys from the country were better at staying undetected while city guys were better shots! I wonder how the city guys got to be better shots?

The hardest part of teaching city guys is getting them to keep the sights on top instead of the side
smile.gif

There is one for the Marine snipers coming up soon also.
Click to expand...
 
#39
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Snipers, as remarkable as their skills are, are no more or less human than the rest. Holding them to the standards you assume they should be held to would leave us with little to no snipers at all.

</div></div>

Oh, I know that. My comment should be taken in context, you have to realize that my experience was 15 years ago. The Army at the time did not realize the advantage of snipers, so they did not train nearly as many. We had a sniper spot in every platoon, but, I am pretty sure there was only one guy in the Battalion that had been through school. They just could not gets slots.

We still ran a qual range twice a year, but it really was an internal thing. The view of snipers as an asset has changed alot since I was in.
 
#40
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

I liked the show, it was entertaining..lots of good optics for the spotter and instructors ( at least for my budget :0 )..google Kowa Highlander binoculars
 
#42
Re: Surviving the Cut: U.S. Army Sniper on Discovery

I think it is wrong for the shooter to get bumped for missing primary and follow up shots when they are shooting as a shooter/spotter team.
The way I was taught, the spotter is running the show on the team. As a team, both should get bumped or at least bump the spotter if he is not directing the shot properly.

Am I right or wrong?
 
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